RootsChat.Com

Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Colin Marschall on Saturday 05 September 20 13:51 BST (UK)

Title: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Saturday 05 September 20 13:51 BST (UK)
Hi All,

New member here, i've done some looking around the forum and tbh am still a little lost.

I'm trying to piece together my fathers history, he sadly died in 1983 and we as a family know little of his earlier life etc.

His name was Friedrich Wilhelm Marschall, he was born 28th April 1923, birth place unknown, he spent most of his early life in Wermelskirchen in the Rheinisch-Bergischer Kreis district, he attended university for about 6 months (again which university is unknown) until joining the German army in 1941, he was dispatched to North Africa where he was part of the 15th Panzer division that took part in the retaking of Trubruk until his capture by the US. He was sent to the US via Staten Island and spent some time in an unknown US POW camp before being shipped to the UK where he was a POW at the Dorstone camp, about 15 miles outside of Hereford City where he met my mother.

The most important things we are trying to discover is where he was actually born, what university he attended and some more about his time in North Africa and as a POW in the US.

He spoke very little about his time in the war, and even less about his life before it .. one of my own main reasons for researching all this is I'd like to try and contact some of my living relatives in Germany and apply for German citizenship.

TIA
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father
Post by: Kloumann on Saturday 05 September 20 17:26 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat, Colin

Have a look at this article

https://www.historycolorado.org/sites/default/files/media/document/2018/ColoradoMagazine_Summer-Fall1979.pdf
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 05 September 20 17:30 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat

Do you have a copy of your parents marriage cert as that would (hopefully) give you his fathers name and occupation

Did he apply for or obtain British Citizenship?
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 05 September 20 17:49 BST (UK)
Welcome to rootschat

Could this be him on a Pan American flight in 1951  :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pvc/
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 05 September 20 18:00 BST (UK)
Welcome.

Have you considered taking a genealogical DNA test, which may indicate where living relatives are located or even enable you to contact them directly?
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Liam59 on Saturday 05 September 20 20:28 BST (UK)
You could ask to see his military record and that may give information such as home town, next of kin etc? 

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Downloads/overview-pers-rec-wwii.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Artikel/Artikel-ausserhalb-der-Navigation/Hinweise-milit-Unterlagen-persbez/benutzen-hinweise-militaerische-unterlagen-persbezogen-en.html

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/DE/Content/Artikel-Textsammlungen/Textsammlung-Oeffnung-Kontakt/oeffnungszeiten-und-kontakt-freiburg.html
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 03:02 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat

Do you have a copy of your parents marriage cert as that would (hopefully) give you his fathers name and occupation

Did he apply for or obtain British Citizenship?

Hi, Thank you for the response.
I am unable to access that pdf, its coming up as unavailable.
No he never applied for or obtained British Citizenship
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 03:04 BST (UK)
Welcome to rootschat

Could this be him on a Pan American flight in 1951  :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pvc/

Hi, Thank you for your response.

No I don't think it can be, I know my parents were married in 1951, and my brother was born in the same year.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 03:12 BST (UK)
Welcome.

Have you considered taking a genealogical DNA test, which may indicate where living relatives are located or even enable you to contact them directly?

Hi, Thank you for your response.

Haven't really thought about that, worth investigating.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 03:14 BST (UK)
You could ask to see his military record and that may give information such as home town, next of kin etc? 

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Downloads/overview-pers-rec-wwii.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Artikel/Artikel-ausserhalb-der-Navigation/Hinweise-milit-Unterlagen-persbez/benutzen-hinweise-militaerische-unterlagen-persbezogen-en.html

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/DE/Content/Artikel-Textsammlungen/Textsammlung-Oeffnung-Kontakt/oeffnungszeiten-und-kontakt-freiburg.html

Hi, thanky oyu for your response.

I have seen those request forms, but I don't speak or write German .. I am in the process of trying to find someone to help me fill them in.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 03:16 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat, Colin

Have a look at this article

https://www.historycolorado.org/sites/default/files/media/document/2018/ColoradoMagazine_Summer-Fall1979.pdf

hi thank you for your response,

The article is unavailable .. the site says it has been removed.

Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father
Post by: chempat on Sunday 06 September 20 10:41 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat, Colin

Have a look at this article

https://www.historycolorado.org/sites/default/files/media/document/2018/ColoradoMagazine_Summer-Fall1979.pdf

hi thank you for your response,

The article is unavailable .. the site says it has been removed.

It loaded for me, so is still available.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: chempat on Sunday 06 September 20 10:45 BST (UK)
Did you have any contact with any cousins/aunts/uncles/grandparents or did he totally cut off the German side of the family?
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 06 September 20 10:53 BST (UK)
Do you have a copy of the 1951 marriage certificate as that may give information on his father.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 06 September 20 11:31 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat, Colin

Have a look at this article

https://www.historycolorado.org/sites/default/files/media/document/2018/ColoradoMagazine_Summer-Fall1979.pdf

hi thank you for your response,

The article is unavailable .. the site says it has been removed.

It's a PDF document - and downloads for me.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Liam59 on Sunday 06 September 20 12:50 BST (UK)
You could ask to see his military record and that may give information such as home town, next of kin etc? 

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Downloads/overview-pers-rec-wwii.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Artikel/Artikel-ausserhalb-der-Navigation/Hinweise-milit-Unterlagen-persbez/benutzen-hinweise-militaerische-unterlagen-persbezogen-en.html

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/DE/Content/Artikel-Textsammlungen/Textsammlung-Oeffnung-Kontakt/oeffnungszeiten-und-kontakt-freiburg.html

Hi, thanky oyu for your response.

I have seen those request forms, but I don't speak or write German .. I am in the process of trying to find someone to help me fill them in.

Here is a form in English:
https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Downloads/order-person-related-research-mil.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: IgorStrav on Sunday 06 September 20 14:08 BST (UK)
Do you have a copy of the 1951 marriage certificate as that may give information on his father.

I agree that this is the first document I'd try to obtain, as it should show father's name and occupation.

I cannot currently see a wedding for a Friedrich Wilhelm Marschall in 1951, although the death reference is there.

Have you found a marriage?
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: chempat on Sunday 06 September 20 14:36 BST (UK)
Marriage on free bmd as MarOchall.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: IgorStrav on Sunday 06 September 20 16:43 BST (UK)
Marriage on free bmd as MarOchall.

Nothing like a helpful mistransciption, is there  :D
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: BumbleB on Sunday 06 September 20 17:02 BST (UK)
BUT - that is how the surname appears on the official GRO Index, so no mis-transcription by FreeBMD  :-X

Added:  17.15 - 6 September:

Apologies to IgorStrav but as a FreeBMD transcriber, I do tend to "stick-up" for other transcribers.  If I/we make a mistake, then I'll hold my hands up and put matters right, or report the error.  :-*
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: chempat on Sunday 06 September 20 17:25 BST (UK)
There is a mistranscription of the record details, but it is on Ancestry.  They have confused the name of the lady who marries Friedrich with the name of the lady in the line above in the index - who is also B*y* A. Watkins.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: IgorStrav on Sunday 06 September 20 17:32 BST (UK)
BUT - that is how the surname appears on the official GRO Index, so no mis-transcription by FreeBMD  :-X

Added:  17.15 - 6 September:

Apologies to IgorStrav but as a FreeBMD transcriber, I do tend to "stick-up" for other transcribers.  If I/we make a mistake, then I'll hold my hands up and put matters right, or report the error.  :-*

No need for apologies, I am very grateful to the work of transcribers who work with very difficult sources. 

It was the capital O in the middle of the name which I thought confusing.  I had found the death ref under the OP's originally quoted name on Ancestry, and was hoping on both FindMyPast and Ancestry to see a marriage, but with no luck.  Glad to have the correct ref pointed out.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: chempat on Sunday 06 September 20 17:36 BST (UK)
I put a capitol O as people have a tendency to skim read and not notice the difference between Marschall and Marochall.

I also have got lots of information on Marshalls, but they do not appear to have anglicized it (from the name of the poster).
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: BumbleB on Sunday 06 September 20 17:36 BST (UK)
 :-* :-*
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 19:08 BST (UK)
Did you have any contact with any cousins/aunts/uncles/grandparents or did he totally cut off the German side of the family?

He did have contact with his family, but I never met any of them, and I have no details of where any of them are now.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 19:10 BST (UK)
Do you have a copy of the 1951 marriage certificate as that may give information on his father.

not yet, I'm in the process of getting that sorted, There is an error in the name transcribed into the marriage index, they have it as Marochall.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 19:12 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat, Colin

Have a look at this article

https://www.historycolorado.org/sites/default/files/media/document/2018/ColoradoMagazine_Summer-Fall1979.pdf

hi thank you for your response,

The article is unavailable .. the site says it has been removed.

It's a PDF document - and downloads for me.

Got it now thank you .. wouldn't download yesterday.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 19:19 BST (UK)
You could ask to see his military record and that may give information such as home town, next of kin etc? 

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Downloads/overview-pers-rec-wwii.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Artikel/Artikel-ausserhalb-der-Navigation/Hinweise-milit-Unterlagen-persbez/benutzen-hinweise-militaerische-unterlagen-persbezogen-en.html

https://www.bundesarchiv.de/DE/Content/Artikel-Textsammlungen/Textsammlung-Oeffnung-Kontakt/oeffnungszeiten-und-kontakt-freiburg.html

Hi, thanky oyu for your response.

I have seen those request forms, but I don't speak or write German .. I am in the process of trying to find someone to help me fill them in.

Here is a form in English:
https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Content/Downloads/order-person-related-research-mil.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Thank you, I've filled it in with as much info as I have and will send it off tomorrow.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 19:20 BST (UK)
Do you have a copy of the 1951 marriage certificate as that may give information on his father.

I agree that this is the first document I'd try to obtain, as it should show father's name and occupation.

I cannot currently see a wedding for a Friedrich Wilhelm Marschall in 1951, although the death reference is there.

Have you found a marriage?

Yes I found the marriage in the indexes, it has been transcribed with a spelling error in the name .. Marochall instead of Marschall. I am in the process of sorting out a copy of the certificate.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Sunday 06 September 20 19:24 BST (UK)
I put a capitol O as people have a tendency to skim read and not notice the difference between Marschall and Marochall.

I also have got lots of information on Marshalls, but they do not appear to have anglicized it (from the name of the poster).

no our name was never changed, my dad felt that it sounded "English" enough to leave as as.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Wednesday 09 September 20 21:28 BST (UK)
I'.m now totally confused  ???

I've been looking at the German law in order to see if I can apply for German Citizenship. I've found conflicting information.

In one place it says that as my father never renounced his German citizenship and I was born before 1975 ie my father was a German Citizen at the time of my birth, that I automatically acquired German citizenship, and yet on another site it says that is only correct if my application for citizenship was sent before my 23rd birthday.

Can anyone clarify for me please.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Liam59 on Wednesday 09 September 20 21:39 BST (UK)
From the German Embassy website, it seems you would fall under the first category under section 1
"My father was German at the time of my birth.
You probably acquired German citizenship automatically."

Here is the link:

https://uk.diplo.de/uk-en/02/citizenship/acquiring-citizenship
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Liz_in_Sussex on Thursday 10 September 20 14:31 BST (UK)
I agree - if your parents were married at the time of your birth AND your father never renounced his German citizenship then you already hold German citizenship.

The thing about being 23 applies when parents aren't married and if you were born in specific years I think.

Liz
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Liz_in_Sussex on Thursday 10 September 20 14:35 BST (UK)
I have just read back and seen the posts about your father's marriage so it owuld seem congratulations are in order - you are already German!  ;D

Liz

Quote
German citizenship by being born in wedlock

Children born in wedlock between Jan. 1, 1914 and Dec. 31, 1974, acquired German citizenship only if the father was a German citizen at the time of their birth.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: IgorStrav on Friday 11 September 20 13:39 BST (UK)
I have just read back and seen the posts about your father's marriage so it owuld seem congratulations are in order - you are already German!  ;D

Liz

Quote
German citizenship by being born in wedlock

Children born in wedlock between Jan. 1, 1914 and Dec. 31, 1974, acquired German citizenship only if the father was a German citizen at the time of their birth.

Now to see about a dual nationality??  Or a German passport??
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Friday 11 September 20 19:19 BST (UK)
I have just read back and seen the posts about your father's marriage so it owuld seem congratulations are in order - you are already German!  ;D

Liz

Quote
German citizenship by being born in wedlock

Children born in wedlock between Jan. 1, 1914 and Dec. 31, 1974, acquired German citizenship only if the father was a German citizen at the time of their birth.

Now all I have to do is apply for my German passport, and I'm hoping I can then track down some of my German relatives.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Liam59 on Saturday 12 September 20 18:18 BST (UK)
The embassy website says you can book a passport appointment if you wish:
"If you probably acquired German citizenship automatically, you can book a passport appointment."
https://uk.diplo.de/uk-en/02/citizenship/acquiring-citizenship

It looks like the main places are London and Edinburgh with some regional offices:
https://uk.diplo.de/uk-en/02/pass/appointment-booking

https://uk.diplo.de/blob/502590/4adebf571419a4a8a5ac8d17cdbeda61/passport-hk-application-data.pdf
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Tuesday 22 September 20 18:55 BST (UK)
I have just read back and seen the posts about your father's marriage so it owuld seem congratulations are in order - you are already German!  ;D

Liz

Quote
German citizenship by being born in wedlock

Children born in wedlock between Jan. 1, 1914 and Dec. 31, 1974, acquired German citizenship only if the father was a German citizen at the time of their birth.

THat is what I thought .. however .. I contacted the German Embassy in London via email giving them all the information I have, there reply was -

Quote
Thank you for your enquiry.

If you are able to provide sufficient proof that your father was German in the time you were born in wedlock, then there should be no problem.

I'm now confused as to what else (if anything) they require.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: IgorStrav on Tuesday 22 September 20 19:12 BST (UK)
I imagine they will need sight of a certified copy of your birth certificate and a certified copy of your parents' marriage certificate?

Which will prove your birth in wedlock.

I am open to being corrected.  You might ask them what evidence they are looking for.

Haven't read back through the thread - have you received your parents' marriage certificate yet to get your father's father's details? 
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Tuesday 22 September 20 19:32 BST (UK)
I imagine they will need sight of a certified copy of your birth certificate and a certified copy of your parents' marriage certificate?

Which will prove your birth in wedlock.

I am open to being corrected.  You might ask them what evidence they are looking for.

Haven't read back through the thread - have you received your parents' marriage certificate yet to get your father's father's details?

I have the copy of my parents marriage certificate, and I'm waiting for a full unabridged copy of my birth certificate.

I also have a signed deceleration from the UK National Archives that there is no record of my father ever holding UK citizenship.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Liam59 on Wednesday 23 September 20 18:54 BST (UK)
Hopefully once your full birth certificate arrives, that should be fine along with your parents' marriage certificate (and, if they need it, the declaration from the UK national archives).

Once you've got your full birth certificate I should think that will be helpful to take with you to your passport appointment.

In terms of your ancestors and finding out more about them, Igor was asking about the marriage certificate - does that give you some more details e.g. your grandfather's name and profession?
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Colin Marschall on Thursday 24 September 20 21:19 BST (UK)
Hopefully once your full birth certificate arrives, that should be fine along with your parents' marriage certificate (and, if they need it, the declaration from the UK national archives).

Once you've got your full birth certificate I should think that will be helpful to take with you to your passport appointment.

In terms of your ancestors and finding out more about them, Igor was asking about the marriage certificate - does that give you some more details e.g. your grandfather's name and profession?


I have some more information .. my mother died recently and my sister was sorting through her papers and came across my fathers German Passport which gives his place of birth as Francenhof, KRS. Bromberg (I think the Francenhof is spelt incorrectly and should be Frankenhof as I can find no reference to Francenhof anywhere).

The marriage certificate says my dads father name was Wilhelm Marschall, occupation farmer (Frankenhof is a farm in Germany just outside Nuremberg)

I also have a document that I can't make out the wording, it looks like a Christening and confirmation booklet .. photo attached.

Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Liam59 on Thursday 24 September 20 22:23 BST (UK)
The wording on the front I think is:
"Kirchenpass
Unierte evangelische Kirche in Polen"

Polen is Poland
Unierte evangelische I think is a protestant grouping of churches.
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: Liz_in_Sussex on Friday 25 September 20 13:08 BST (UK)
The Unierte Evangelische Kirche Polen was (according to German wikipedia) centred in Poznań in Poland between the two World Wars and was, as Liam59 says, a group of Protestant Churches.

I have just found a fascinating blog (dated June 2020) "Köln ohne Kirchenpass – Die Archivale des Monats Juni" (Cologne without Church passes - the archives in the month of June) about membership cards, on the Evangelical Church of Cologne website. It says that they could be a proof of identity but also were for someone to carry as a reminder to them that they were a Christian and the duties that entailed (prayer, reading the Bible, going to worship etc). Apparently over a hundred years ago the idea didn't catch on in Köln but it had in Berlin and elsewhere and a publishing house in Arnstadt made them.

Here's a link but it is all in German: https://www.kirche-koeln.de/koeln-ohne-kirchenpass-die-archivale-des-monats-juni/

I'm not sure how this ties in with your father but it won't be something you need to show the German Embassy  ;D

Liz

(ADDED: this letter (ß) at the end of Kirchenpaß can be written as ss in English.)
Title: Re: Searching For Details About My Father from Germany
Post by: davecapps on Sunday 27 September 20 09:36 BST (UK)
as Liz said, the Unierte Evangelische Kirche Polen was centred in Posen (Poznan)

It´s a long shot, but your father´s family may have came from there.

Here is a link to the Poznan Projekt
http://poznan-project.psnc.pl/index.php?lang=en

Type in Marschall, you´ll get 154 hits.
This only deals with the 19th century

Dave