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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: chrisruthsmith on Tuesday 08 September 20 22:46 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I'm struggling to find information on Thomas Jackson- I'd like to find his birth date and to trace him on the census records. The info I have is:
From marriage certificate
* DOB about 1878
*Married 26/12/1901 to Mary Ellen Brown in Parish of St Judes Manchester (Ancoats)
Address at time of marriage 104 Mill St Father John Jackson - deceased by 1901
From death certificate
* died 6/61947
My Census Searches
* 1911 census can find Mary Ellen but not Thomas - note they were still married when Mary Ellen died in 1937
* 1901 census - can't find him at any Mill St address
* 1881 and 1891 census - found a possible match (Cholton ED 22, Piece 3899, Folio 18, Page 29)
Thomas Jackson born 1878 (Manchester) toohn Jackson aged 35 Sarah Jackson aged 34
Birth Registrations
A search of the GRO for 1878 gave me 2 possible matches
* Thomas Jackson District Manchester Vol 8d P228 Mother Maiden name Downey
* Thomas Jackson District Cholton Vol 8c P709 Mother Maiden name Thompson
However I can't seem to find a marriage which relates to John Jackson with a Downey or Thompson
So what should I do next to try and identify who Thomas mother was and when was he born
Thank you
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What was his and his father's occupations from the marriage certificate?
Have you found him in 1939?
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If you can find him on 1939 register it should give you his date of birth. Also as it says about 1878 on marriage certificate, he could have been born in 1877
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Thomas and his father were both labourers
Unfortunately I can't find a good match on the 1939 register either
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Is his death the Oldham one?
Who was the informant?
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Marriage witness
Mary Hannah Jackson - have you found her anywhere?
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on the 1939 register there are two possibles
Thomas Jackson DOB 1 Aug 1877 Widowed ; Occupation : Labourer living in Poplar, London, England
Thomas Jackson DOB 11 May 1877 Widowed; Occupation : Shipyard Labourer living in Sunderland C.B., Durham, England
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Is his death the Oldham one?
Who was the informant?
Thomas died in Boundary Park Generall hospital in Oldham and the informant was his eldest daughter Edith Jackson
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Marriage witness
Mary Hannah Jackson - have you found her anywhere?
I can find some Mary Hannah Jackson but none that I can directly tie in with either a John Jackson or a Thomas Jackson
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Where were they living when Mary Ellen died?
Does he state he was a labourer on all documents you have him on?
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Where were they living when Mary Ellen died?
Does he state he was a labourer on all documents you have him on?
The address on Mary Ellen's death certificate is Gas St Failsworth
The list of occupations that I have for him and their sources are
1901 Labourer - Marriage Certificate
1902 Ship Fireman -Birth Certificate Ellen Jackson
1904 Labourer in Electric Works - Birth certificate Edith Jackson
1908 Foundry Labourer - Death Certificate Ellen Jackson
1920 Steel Erector - Birth Certificate Edna Jackson
1937 Steel Erector - Death Certificate Mary Ellen Jackson
1947 Store Keeper - Engineers - Death Certificate Thomas Jackson
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If you search 1939 register for a steel erector, there is a possible T J born 1877.
His job might entail working from home.
It is difficult with censuses. I am presuming he was born in Manchester but maybe not :-\
1901 3747/16/4
shows ThomasJackson 25 yrs, a General Labourer b Manchester in lodgings in London Road so not too far away from Mill Street but of course no parents.
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Thomas Jackson could have been illegitimate, and so 'John' will not appear on any censuses.
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You will have to bear with me here - I am not sure how or if this fits
I have been looking at this lady to try to establish a link. I was hoping she might be the mother of Thomas thinking as chempat suggests that he could be illegitimate.
The starting point - Mary Hannah Jackson, witness to the wedding of Thomas Jackson and Mary Ellen Brown.
Mary Hannah Jackson abt 1861, Manchester. However, looking again, the other witness is George Francis Brown.
Mary Hannah in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW14-55R
The two younger children have mmn Greenwood.
Marriage
1900 Emma Greenwood and George F Brown. They are also in 1911 census together.
1891 3235/140
Esther Greenwood 43 yrs, head of household with step sister, Mary Hannah Jackson and Emma Greenwood, niece.
They are together in 1881 too.
I haven’t checked to see if George Francis Brown is your Mary Ellen’s brother/relative but I am now wondering if Mary Hannah Jackson is a witness because she is connected in a roundabout way to Mary Ellen Brown and not a relative of Thomas.... phew!
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Yes, I was hoping she would be his Mother, but not getting anywhere with that idea. I had been concentrating on trying to find her in 1901 with Thomas, or on preceding censuses with him, with or without a husband/father.
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1881 and 1891 census - found a possible match (Cholton ED 22, Piece 3899, Folio 18, Page 29)
Thomas Jackson born 1878 (Manchester) to John Jackson aged 35 Sarah Jackson aged 34
Birth Registrations
A search of the GRO for 1878 gave me 2 possible matches
* Thomas Jackson District Manchester Vol 8d P228 Mother Maiden name Downey
* Thomas Jackson District Cholton Vol 8c P709 Mother Maiden name Thompson
However I can't seem to find a marriage which relates to John Jackson with a Downey or Thompson
Just to try and clear him up, a possible birth
JACKSON, THOMAS
Mother's Maiden Surname: BOOTH
GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 748
And one for 15 months old James from the 1881 census
JACKSON, JAMES
Mother's Maiden Surname: BOOTH
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 752
1891, all born Ardwick
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7C28-DN2
John W, 9 in 1891, might be this one?
JACKSON, JOHN WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: BOOTH
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 720
Was Walter illegitimate and Booth in 71?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZP6-SRJ
Is the marriage the one at Ardwick St Silas in 1876? :-\
John Jackson + Emma Booth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-61QN-JP?i=113
This may not turn out to be the right family or Thomas of course, and you will no doubt want to look closely at the steel erector in 1939 found by heywood.
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Baptism of Walter, 13 Feb 1870, Saint Andrew Ancoats
Mother Emma Booth, a Tenter (as per later marriage)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-61QN-JP?i=113
So Sarah in 1881 should be Emma :)
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Marriage at St Silas, Ardwick, 20 Nov 1899
Thomas Jackson, 22, Bachelor, Packer, 8(?) Back York St, father John Jackson, Navvy
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Betsy Morris, 21
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6P23-M25?i=90&cc=1788853
In 1901 there is Thomas Jackson, 23, born Ardwick, married to Betsy, with Morris in laws
piece 3677 folio page 30
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X924-ZDT
Is this the Thomas we have just been looking at? Thus eliminating him? :-\
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Image of the marriage of the real Thomas Jackson in Dec 1901, in case it helps anyone
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-X3QW-GT?i=208&cc=1788853
Thomas declares himself to be 23, one year younger than Mary Ellen.
Father John Jackson is deceased
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1911 census can find Mary Ellen but not Thomas - note they were still married when Mary Ellen died in 1937
Throw in Mary Ellen in the free index to 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1N-W9X
Three children, here's one
JACKSON, JOHN SIMPSON
Mother's Maiden Surname: BROWN
GRO Reference: 1908 J Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 369
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Thanks Jon.
I was trying to unpick that yesterday but I think I gave up. There is another family with a Walter b 1870ish and Thomas combination but I think that Thomas married Rebecca Jones in 1900.
It is difficult to find the same mothers’ names to identify children and then there is Chorlton/Manchester districts.
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The list of occupations that I have for him and their sources are
1902 Ship Fireman -Birth Certificate Ellen Jackson
1904 Labourer in Electric Works - Birth certificate Edith Jackson
1920 Steel Erector - Birth Certificate Edna Jackson
Are there any other children, or a gap of 16 years between Edith and Edna?
I was trying to find him in 1911 (you have him on Ellen's death certificate in 1908 as a Foundry Labourer), and wondered what he was doing etc etc
Added:
Just found your tree on Ancestry with daughter Beatrice born 1912, Prestwich, and Irene 1918 Prestwich.
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1911 census can find Mary Ellen but not Thomas - note they were still married when Mary Ellen died in 1937
Throw in Mary Ellen in the free index to 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1N-W9X
Three children, here's one
JACKSON, JOHN SIMPSON
Mother's Maiden Surname: BROWN
GRO Reference: 1908 J Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 369
I did not realise that was the Mary Ellen, had managed to find too many Jackson/Brown births in Prestwich. Where does the Simpson come from - her side of the family?
So not a gap of 16 years between children. Wonder what his occupation was on the youngest child's certificate.
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John Simpson Jackson died in Weston-super-Mare in 1980, birth date as 9th May 1908.
Looks to have been in Norwich in 1939, very similar line of business to his father.
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Daughters Irene and Edna are unmarried in 1939, and living together according to your tree?
Who do you think is the head of household(or the person on the first line), who is redacted?
Could it possibly be their father with an completely incorrect date recorded?
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John Simpson Jackson died in Weston-super-Mare in 1980, birth date as 9th May 1908.
Looks to have been in Norwich in 1939, very similar line of business to his father.
That is promising :)
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A possible one here:
1911 - Thomas Jackson, in Knutsford prison.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW3Q-PBZ
I had seen this before but thought he was single. It is only when I looked at this record, I see he was not.
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I saw that one, but was not convinced as thought 'dock labourer' was a bit too general, and why in prison there?
Wonder how easy the newspapers will be to search....
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I can’t see anything in newspaper snippets.
FindMyPast indexes re crime show Thomas Jackson with several aliases so that might be this chap in 1911.
I just posted him re the elements which fit.
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Just to put that the 'Simpson' seems to come from the Mary Ellen side - her brother is similarly named
Birth March quarter 1886 in Manchester William Simpson Brown mmn Smith ,
whilst Mary Ellen is Mary Ellen Brown mmn Smith December quarter 1877 Manchester.
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It is time for chrisruthsmith to return.
And can they clear up death of Thomas
From death certificate[/b]
* died 6/61947
Philips Park Cemetery
Grave Number CConsecrated 1885
Position 1 Ellen Jackson, buried 07/04/1908
Position 2 Mary Ellen Jackson, buried 18/05/1937
Position 3 Thomas Jackson, buried 28/05/1947
https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/
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Oh, oops, that made me giggle - time for bed.
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Goodnight, chempat! Do sleep well.
It is past all our bedtimes I think!
OCR text, check original!
Manchester Evening News, 26 May 1947
JACKSON.—On May 24, in hospital, THOMAS, in his 69th year, dearly-loved and devoted husband of the late Mary Ellen JACKSON. 13, Wrigley Crescent, Lord Lane. Failsworth (formerly of Holland-street, Miles Platting) Service St. Mark's Church, Wednesday, 10 15; interment Philips Park Cemetery, 10 45 a.m. Inq. H. Sumner and Son Tel. Col 1584
June 1947 Oldham 10f 113
Jackson, Thomas
age 68
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Are we allowed to say that we have searched 1939 if we give no results?
If so, I can see numbers 121 to 153, then Rectory, Holland Street; Numbers 155-163, 154, School House, Holland Street; and 1 to 2, Holland Street, these all of Manchester (not Denton), 3 different sets.
I cannot find the missing numbers. Possibly the first addressed house is blacked out and the rest are just dittos?
Holland Street on google maps looks to have been completely modernised (bombed? clearance?) and new buildings.
Holland Street running diagonally bottom left to top right:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/126522821#zoom=5&lat=5937&lon=9925&layers=BT
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There is a tree which references Edna’s baptism in 1920 at St Mark’s which is Holland Street Newton Heath.
Perhaps the family were living there in 1920 before moving to Failsworth.
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If the age at death is accurate, then he was born from May 25th 1878 to May 23rd 1879.
At marriage on December 26 1901 age 23, so born at the very end of 1877 to 25th December, 1878, if age accurate.
Thus birth should be from May 25th 1878 to December 1878, so should have been registered from 2nd quarter 1878 to 1st quarter 1879. Think that gets rid of your proposed Manchester birth.
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Followed this thread with interest as my Jacksons were also in the Manchester area then
Looking at an online tree I noticed that daughters Edna and Irene were living in 1939 in Failsworth at the same address that is listed on their fathers death cert in 1947. As the adjoining person is blacked out I wondered whether this was their father Thomas and he was redacted in errror :-\
Kay
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Yep, I suggested that on reply 24, but did not realise/know it was the same address.
Wasted my time looking for Holland Street.
Apply to F M P to have it revealed?
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Sorry Chempat - Missed your reply when rereading :-\
Kay
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It helps Kay. I had not thought that it could be Thomas.
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John Simpson Jackson died in Weston-super-Mare in 1980, birth date as 9th May 1908.
Looks to have been in Norwich in 1939, very similar line of business to his father.
If that is dad in 1939 with the family then he can’t be the steel erector. I looked for John Simpson but can’t work out how to see his address/occupation. However, looking at the address at the top of the page, the two Jacksons are only a few miles away from each other :-\
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I think John Simpson Jackson is listed twice in 1939. Try searching for his wife Isabella Jackson with the same birth year and Borough and you should find the other record with John and more info
Kay
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Thanks Kay.
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Hello,
Just a quick note to thank everyone for all your hard work. It am very new to this and so it will take me quite a while to work through all the posts but I do have some more information which might answer some of the questions you have posed
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Re 1939 Register
We can rule out that Thomas was at 13 Wrigley Crescent, Failsworth with his daughter Edna and Irene. The eldest surviving daughter Edith (who's was listed as Head) was redacted on Ancestry but not in Find my Past.
Heywood found at T Jackson living in Norwich with a DOB of 14/02/1877 which ties in with his son's John Simpson Jackson occupation and location. From the GRO register I looked for births in or close to Manchester in Q1 of 1977 and found
- T Jackson PRESTWICH 08D 471 Ellison
- T Jackson MANCHESTER 08D 346 Hughes
- T Jackson SALFORD 08D 139 Wilson
Is it worth me perusing this further to see if they tie in with the steel erector?
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Heywood also found
1901 3747/16/4
shows Thomas Jackson 25 yrs, a General Labourer b Manchester in lodgings in London Road so not too far away from Mill Street but of course no parents.
but the Thomas Jackson above would be 26 when married not the 23 as shown on the certificate. Does this mean that he is counted out?
-I've found a Thos Jackson listed as a visitor to an address on Mill St. 1901 3747/62/9 Mill St is the address given on the marriage certificate so that ties in. However his age is 27 - I wondered if this could be a typo and it could be 22. Hence he would be 23 when getting married
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Re 1939 Register
We can rule out that Thomas was at 13 Wrigley Crescent, Failsworth with his daughter Edna and Irene. The eldest surviving daughter Edith (who's was listed as Head) was redacted on Ancestry but not in Find my Past.
How strange.
I looked at F M P to check if it differed from Ancestry, and my version has the head of household closed.
Makes more sense that it is Edith. Pity.
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Edith is not showing on the image - but she is showing on the transcription, and Edna has been missed from the transcription. On F M P.
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Heywood also found
1901 3747/16/4
shows Thomas Jackson 25 yrs, a General Labourer b Manchester in lodgings in London Road so not too far away from Mill Street but of course no parents.
but the Thomas Jackson above would be 26 when married not the 23 as shown on the certificate. Does this mean that he is counted out?
-I've found a Thos Jackson listed as a visitor to an address on Mill St. 1901 3747/62/9 Mill St is the address given on the marriage certificate so that ties in. However his age is 27 - I wondered if this could be a typo and it could be 22. Hence he would be 23 when getting married
The age on the image is clear as 27, so if a typo it is earlier in the recording process, and as there is a long list of lodgings inhabitants it could have happened then. He is recorded as Thomas - am I looking at the wrong one? A coal carter from Manchester.
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Thats the one I was looking at
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I'm trying to narrow eliminate some of the possible Thomas Jacksons that have been indentified. Heywood found a Thomas Jackson in prison in 1911 and I wondered if there would be a related record that could help me find their birth date. I'm looking in FindMyPast England & Wales, Crime Prisons & Punishments 1770 -1935 records but can't find a Thomas Jackson that matches.
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There are such a lot of difficulties here:
Ages often differed and I would think that if people were in lodgings and the householder gave an age it might not be reliable.
The Thomases we have looked at are in the same general area - Ancoats, Ardwick etc.
With regard to Thomas,27 yrs Coal Carter, there is a 1911 Thomas, 36 yrs, Carter here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1W-BSL
and 1891 3194/149
has the Thomas H Jackson with mother Ellen. He is a Carter's boy. (I think he has been mentioned previously).
As we know from ‘our’ Thomas, occupations varied.
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I am tending towards the steel erector in Norfolk in 1939, apart from the age, which is wrong for him being 23 on marriage, and age stated at death.
Cannot see anyone born Norfolk who would fit for the 1939 (unless they have also altered their birth year), so looks to be from elsewhere.
People do get ages wrong for a variety of reasons, but we also have not definitely got him in 1901 or 1911, so he could do a lot of travelling and was not born in Manchester.
Could he be Irish?
Have you considered DNA?
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Just putting here, possibly named before, in 1881 this family with father John, living in Barrow
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=12105886
Thomas is claimed 4, but it looks like 14, which would be wrong, but born Manchester.
John Jackson 33 fitter Manchester
Eliza Jackson 33 Scotland
Salina Jackson 14 months? Barrow
John Jackson 9 Barrow
Thomas Jackson 4 Manchester
Then 1911, Thomas is married but Sabina is his sister(and has been crossed out) and single, claimed John and Eliza married 34 years, 2 children born and living
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2352&h=32578347&tid=&pid=&queryId=ff4fd6e7327c7befcc92aaabf38f28c3&usePUB=true&_phsrc=zpG5218&_phstart=successSource
John Jackson 63 mechanic Manchester
Eliza Jackson 63 Scotland
Sabina Jackson 33 Manchester daughter single
Thomas Jackson 31 Barrow Labourer Engineering married
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Have you found the 1881 family in 1891? I looked at the family but on the image in 1881 it looks like Thomas is 14 rather than 4 :-\
Kay
Added - Sorry if the 1911 is correct it solves the problem
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1891 https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=22355811
living in Barrow
John Jackson 44 Manchester metal planer
Eliza Jackson 43 Scotland
Thomas Jackson 11 Barrow
Mary Jackson 72 mother Ireland
John Macartney 23 ? Stepson, France, British Subject metal planer
George Gibson 33 lodger
In 1901 Eliza(beth) and John are in Barrow,ages 52 and 51, 2 boarders with them, husband from Manchester.
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Just a reminder that John Jackson, a Labourer, was deceased in Dec 1901, according to son Thomas!
Info from marriage.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-X3QW-GT?i=208
I do have some more information which might answer some of the questions you have posed
When are you going to post this information?
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That was at the back of my mind - could not remember if he were alive or dead.
It did fit nicely, apart from that (very minor or not) detail.
Try something else?
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I don't think the John Jackson and family living in Barrow, identified by chempat is the most likely option as I remember my mother (Edna) telling me that her grandfather always worked as a labourer
I've been trying to explore the steel erector identified in the 1939 register. DOB 14/2/1877
and making the assumption that Thomas was born in/near to Manchester then
* T Jackson Prestwich M 1877 08D 471 Ellison
and I found a marriage between and John Jackson and Elizabeth Ellison 10/11/1866
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNTP-W16 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNTP-W16)
I wondered if this could be a possibility? The marriage certificate states he was a widower when he married
I thought I was going to have some really useful information to share from a photograph of John Jackson which had some notes on the back, unfortunately the sender was incorrect and it was a photograph of Mary Ellen father
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I don't think the John Jackson and family living in Barrow, identified by chempat is the most likely option as I remember my mother (Edna) telling me that her grandfather always worked as a labourer
and I found a marriage between and John Jackson and Elizabeth Ellison 10/11/1866
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNTP-W16 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNTP-W16)
As John was dead, according to Thomas's marriage certificate, Edna never met her grandfather, so how does she know that he was a labourer all his life, other than what she was told, which is not direct evidence?
A warp sizer, on that proposed John's marriage certificate, is not a labourer, unfortunately.
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Ancestry has a marriage in 1844, Manchester, of a John Jackson, of full age, widower, sizer, father James Jackson, weaver, to Rachel Hall.
Makes him, possibly, quite old when marries again, but one cannot tell.
Could not compare signatures, did not sign either time.
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As John was dead, according to Thomas's marriage certificate, Edna never met her grandfather, so how does she know that he was a labourer all his life, other than what she was told, which is not direct evidence?
A warp sizer, on that proposed John's marriage certificate, is not a labourer, unfortunately.
[/quote]
Thank you - this came from Edith the oldest sister who Edna lived with after Mary Ellen died but its far from fact!
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I've obtained the birth certificate for the Thomas Jackson identified by JonW65
JACKSON, THOMAS
Mother's Maiden Surname: BOOTH
GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 748
Thomas was born on 17 Oct 1877, (birth registered 28 Nov 1877 ) to a John and Emma Jackson. John's occupation was given as outdoor labourer. So I think this is very likely the one
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There is a Thomas Jackson born 17th October 1878 (not 1877) in Ely with Naomi in 1939.
Just pointing out, and not attempting to explain how he could have got from Manchester to Ely, but birth year out is common.
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My thought, expressed in Reply #17, is that Thomas, son of John and Emma, is probably the chap who married Betsy Morris in Ardwick in 1899.
Difficult to be sure, with Jackson being such a common name in those parts.
John