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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Relsearcher on Wednesday 09 September 20 14:36 BST (UK)
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Hello everyone - I'm getting into a bit of a muddle and cannot seem to iron out what is going on!
My Great Grandfather was Walter Perkins, born 2 March 1859 in Bermondsey to John Perkins and Ann Perkins nee Wood. I have his birth certificate which shows this - home address was 10 Mill St, Dockhead, Bermondsey. John Perkins appears to have died in 1869, Bermondsey, and Ann died at her daughter's house (Louisa) at 10 Linsey St, Bermondsey on 10 April 1892 from 'old age'.
Walter's older sister was Louisa, born 1841 in Bermondsey, went on to marry into the Richards family (I have traced along the lines of the Richards family).
Walter also had an older brother William who was born in 1856 and died in 1891 (unmarried) and gave his home address as Walter's address at 60 Leo St, off the Old Kent Road - I have the certificates for all of these events.
On the relevant Census returns for John & Ann Perkins are 2 other boys - John, born in 1842 in Spitalfields (1851 Census - 4 Mill St, Dockhead, Bermondsey) and Henry, born 1854 in Bermondsey (1861 Census - 10 Mill St, Dockhead, Bermondsey). By the 1861 Census John is listed as being born in Bermondsey rather than Spitalfields. Louisa shows up on both of these Census returns, and William and Walter also show up on the 1861 Census.
Searching the GRO Births, I have confirmed Louisa, William and Walter's births to MMN Wood. (I have also found 3 other births - William Wood Perkins in 1844 in St Saviours Union, Mary Emma Perkins in 1846 in St Saviours Union, and Amelia Ann Perkins in 1847 in Bermondsey.)
However, there is no sign of the births of John or Henry to MMN Wood. But there are listings for both to MMN Whaley in the correct years and places.
I have never been able to find a marriage for John Perkins to an Ann Wood, but there is one to an Ann Whaley on 19 July 1841 at St George The Martyr, Southwark. This lists John's profession as a Police Officer. My John was always a wharf labourer or leather dyer (as far as I have discovered). His sons also worked in these professions.
In the 1841 Census I cannot find John Perkins but I have found Ann Wood living in the same household as his parents. There appears to be a 9 month old child Louisa living there too, but she is listed in such a way that she looks like she is a child of John and Martha, not of Ann who appears to be unmarried.
So, what is going on here? Is Ann Wood also Ann Whaley? Who are the sons John and Henry who show up in the same household as the confirmed children of MMN Wood?
Can anyone help me work this out? To me, it should appear to be 2 different families but appears not to be??? The births of John and Henry seem to throw a spanner in the works for me, and the lack of an obvious marriage between Perkins and Wood is baffling me too. The differing professions of John Perkins also cause a hiccup (but I know he could have lied on the marriage cert as my father certainly told a whopper on his 2nd marriage cert!).
Perhaps I have been hammering away at this for so long that I am now blind to what is obvious, so if anyone can help me that would be great!!! I'm feeling mentally baffled by it all now - if you know what I mean!
Nina
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My first reaction to the 1861 entry was the big gap in age between the 20yr old Louisa and 18yr John then down to 6yr old Henry
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Have you seen this? 2 of the children on the 1841 entry
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JW75-CZ9
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JS1K-MBM
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Hello CaroleW - thanks for your replies - yes, I noticed the gap too, but I also found 3 more children on the GRO site with MMN Wood that I mentioned - ''(I have also found 3 other births - William Wood Perkins in 1844 in St Saviours Union, Mary Emma Perkins in 1846 in St Saviours Union, and Amelia Ann Perkins in 1847 in Bermondsey)'' - who fit into the gap leaving only 8 years between the last one and 6yr old Henry. I have yet to explore what happened to them although I know that Amelia died in 1848.
Re the 2 other children in the 1841 household with John & Martha Perkins, parents of John Perkins who married Ann Wood/Whaley - they are siblings of John - I cannot seem to find John Perkins in the 1841 Census. I feel that Louisa aged 9 months is the daughter of John & Ann not John & Martha as in the 1851 Census Louisa appears aged 10 with John & Ann, and one of the sons I am having trouble pinning down - John DOB 1842 - I cannot find any birth for him except in Spitalfields to MMN Whaley!
Nina
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Louisa's birth reg shows mmn as Wood. Registered as Perkins.
The fact that Ann is shown as Wood in 1841 would possibly suggest that she & John were not married at that time.
Like you - I cant find a Perkins/Wood marriage
Looking at the 1841 marriage cert with Ann as Whaley - I think it's a likely bet.
John Perkins snr is a mariner - occ sailor in 1841
Witness was Elizabeth Perkins - sister Elizabeth on 1841 entry
Marriage was July 1841 - census was June
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Here is the 1841 ref for John Perkins jnr - shown as b 1819 & living in M'sex occ police constable
HO107 piece 710/8 folio 9 page 11
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Thanks CaroleW ... will have a good look in the morning! Nina
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Good Morning CaroleW - well that's very interesting - and I notice that he is a police constable in Spitalfields - this could explain why John Perkins born 1842 was registered in Spitalfields and not the Bermondsey area as per all his other siblings.
Still confused about the Wood & Whaley surname though - I have tried to find out more about an Ann Whaley in the Ancestry records but there isn't much coming up at all, nor about her father John Whaley, Wine Merchant, as per the wedding certificate.
Nor can I find anything that might explain the changing use of maiden name. It's odd how she changes between Wood and Whaley (if indeed she is one and the same???):
Louisa Perkins 1841, Bermondsey, MMN Wood
John Perkins 1842, Spitalfields, MMN Whaley
William Wood Perkins 1844, Bermondsey, MMN Wood
Mary Emma Perkins 1846, Bermondsey, MMN Wood
Amelia Ann Perkins 1847, Bermondsey, MMN Wood
Henry Perkins 1855, Bermondsey, MMN Whaley
William Perkins 1856, Bermondsey, MMN Wood
Walter Perkins 1859, Bermondsey, MMN Wood
Re John Perkins, husband of Ann, I wonder if he trained as a policeman but then for whatever reason left that profession, because in the 1851 Census he is back in Bermondsey with Ann, Louisa (listed as born in Bermondsey) and John (listed as born in Spitalfields), working as a Wharf Labourer. Or maybe they are different Johns???
Different Johns, different Anns ... Wood or Whaley - still not 100% sure yet!!!
Nina
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Ann could have been illegitimate and her mother later married Mr Wood or Mr Whaley.
Or - she was illegitimate and knew who her biological father was??
Common practice back then for illegitimate children to make up a fathers name when they married to appear "respectable"
There are too many other indications for this not to be the right marriage. I had a quick look but can't see a Wood/Whaley marriage.
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Thanks CaroleW - you must be right - I can see no other explanation! Do you agree then that all the children I listed were John & Ann's? Maybe I should purchase a couple of pdfs of the births - maybe Henry and Amelia? Nina
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If the births you found match the children found on the censuses with them - I wouldn't waste money on certs. No other Perkins/Whaley marriage apart from the 1841