RootsChat.Com

Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Alan of Kaslo on Friday 11 September 20 01:43 BST (UK)

Title: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Alan of Kaslo on Friday 11 September 20 01:43 BST (UK)
Hello.

My grandfather's death cert says he is from Carrick and then I believe it lists his occupation but I cannot decipher it. In earlier documents he was an excise officer. His name is William Orr (bottom entry). Any help greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Alan
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: shanreagh on Friday 11 September 20 03:02 BST (UK)
Could you let us know the County please.  Tending towards thinking that the word runs on from Carrick as you can see in the entry above.  Looks a bit like Renall? So Carrick Renall or Penal? 
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Alan of Kaslo on Friday 11 September 20 03:46 BST (UK)
Thanks for the reply. This is Ayrshire. William Orr married Jean Ferguson in Ayr and the death cert I referred to is: 17/10/1823 ORR, WILLIAM - Old Parish Registers Deaths 578/ 130 17 Ayr. Not sure the county name...

At his marriage he is a lawyer , which could lend itself to penal...
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Mckha489 on Friday 11 September 20 03:57 BST (UK)
Is that Lawyer or Sawyer
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 11 September 20 04:28 BST (UK)
Is that Lawyer or Sawyer

Good point Mckha.
Is there another capital 'L' and 'S' on the page in the register for comparison?

Added:
Unless you already know from other sources he was a lawyer?
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Alan of Kaslo on Friday 11 September 20 04:39 BST (UK)
Here is more of the document for comparison.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gx-yD5gwIE8crICg1z0FMsvZH23z5Gk9/view?usp=sharing

I only knew he was an excise officer at one point.

Here in my grandfather's death cert. it mention his father's occupation as excise officer
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bLOI1d7_D_1pfpKg92894rY-bhzcQpdA/view?usp=sharing

Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Alan of Kaslo on Friday 11 September 20 05:40 BST (UK)
Here is William Orr's marriage doc to compare L and S's

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DgfB21xFfts7SZraoT0FOyvSnUo-P62o/view?usp=sharing

Looking like S for Sawyer as you mentioned.
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Skoosh on Friday 11 September 20 08:56 BST (UK)
A lawyer then would probably be called a writer, an exciseman a gauger!

Skoosh.
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: osprey on Friday 11 September 20 11:14 BST (UK)
looks like venal to me, so part of his address. Reference to Carrick Vennel here, part of it became Carrick Street.

https://canmore.org.uk/site/41796/ayr-carrick-port
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 11 September 20 11:16 BST (UK)
 Hi Alan,
On the death certificate, I think the word after Carrick, is a place name (place of abode), not a profession. Carrick was an area in south Ayrshire which contained a few parishes. Although I cannot make out the first letters, the mystery word seems to be written very close to Carrick, rather than more separate like the above professions are listed.

On the marriage certificate I believe he is recorded as a SAWYER.
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: JenB on Friday 11 September 20 12:07 BST (UK)
I also think it says Carrick Venall, this being his address, as posted by Osprey.
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Skoosh on Friday 11 September 20 13:21 BST (UK)
A Vennal = a lane! Osprey done good!  ;D

Skoosh.
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Alan of Kaslo on Friday 11 September 20 23:36 BST (UK)
Thank you very much for the help!

From Osprey's Canmore link:
"The vennel would be the quickest route from market into Carrick, via Alloway. If this was an open route to the burgh"

Will have to start calling local lanes vennels!
Title: Re: 1823 death cert - Need help with a word
Post by: Alan of Kaslo on Saturday 12 September 20 04:45 BST (UK)
Quote
CARRIGK   VENNEL.    Near  the Kyle  Port  and  almost   opposite   the  old  tower  in High  Street,  Carrick Vennel  branched  off into the  burgh   moor   and  so through  Alloway,  leading  to the  Old  Bridge of Doon.  It would  be  the  quickest  route, from the  market  into  Carrick.   Part  of it  exists  as Carrick  Street.    Some  say  it  also  bore  the  name  of  the  Foul  Vennel.^  Cow   VENNEL   (or  COWGAIT).   The  Cow  Vennel  also  led  off  the  High  Street  into  the  burgh  moor.   The  built-up  part of it is now   appropriately   named   Alloway    Street,  for  the  original  path  led through  Alloway  to  Maybole.    The  old name   shows   the  reason  for the route  because  it was  the Cow Road   along   which  cattle  were  herded  to the  communal  pasture.   Along  this  vennel   were   located  the cattle   markets  known  as the  Fauld-backs.* FOUL  VENNEL   (or  FOUL   CALSAY)  .  The  burgh  moor  was  also  approached   through  the  Foul   Vennel.    There  is  much   per-plexity  as to the location  of this  lane  and  much  conjecture  as  to  the meaning  of  its  title.    Some   authorities  aver  that   Foul   Calsay  led from  the  Sandgate  to  the  Kirk   of St. John  the  Baptist.    Others  maintain  that  it is the Carrick Vennel  under  an    alternative  name.^