RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: haney on Monday 14 September 20 20:35 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone
I have a really tricky bit of research and I thought that someone maybe able to offer me some advice please. I am researching ERNEST WILLIAM FRANCES HOPE who was born in NSW (Marrickville) in 1890, according to his marriage certificate.
I have found NO birth record for the Ernest W F HOPE here in NSW. His mother is from family records INDIAN!! Ernest Phillip HOPE was in the English Army and stationed in India where he met the mother of Ernest W F HOPE.
I've tried to find shipping records c 1880's - onwards and I cannot find anything. So frustrating. I am still trying to find details (if they exist??) of ERNEST P HOPE his Indian wife and when they actually came to Australia, unless she died??? before coming here!!!
There was also a daughter who was killed in a house fire in Sydney, unfortunatey I cannot find a birth (no name) using just the fathers name or death for this child.
5345/1923 HOPE Ernest W F to TOWELL Sarah J (Marriage) No mother on marriage certificate
28676/1952 HOPE Ernest William F IRONWORKER CANTERBURY 62 YRS MARRICKVILLE (no parents listed)
Death and funeral notices, 2nd and 5th columns: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18284689.
Any suggestions on gathering some more clues would be great as I'm really stuck. I've tried subscribing to the Victoria roots web mailing list just in case the family arrived in Victoria, but, I have been unable to subscribe to the list for some unknown reason. Thanks so much for any guidance. Kindest regards Dianna
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Link to original post: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837286.0
Jamjar
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Wondering if this is your Ernest HOPE?
NRS-12922-1-[11/16635]-[160] | HOPE, Ernest - Date of Birth 09/06/1890
Series -NRS- 12922 Railway Personal History Cards - Employees born before 1900
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?docid=ADLIB_RNSW114393772&vid=61SRA&search_scope=Everything&tab=default_tab&lang=en_US&context=L
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Hi Yes that is possibly him but not much else to go on. No birth certificate in Australia that I could find so far, unless he was not born in Australia. Thank you
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Hi Again also he seems to have attempted to join up in WW1 but was rejected. That could have been really helpful if he had of joined as there would have been some very useful information. Oh well!! Thanks Dianna
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Can you please list all the information on this certificate -
5345/1923 HOPE Ernest W F marr. TOWELL Sarah J @ Rockdale
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YES:- CERT 05345, 1 MAY 1923. ST PAUL'S CHURCH, KOGARAH, KOGARAH MUNICIPALITY, CHURCH OF ENGLAND.
GROOM:- ERNEST WILLIAM FRANCIS HOPE, BACHELOR, BIRTHPLACE MARRICKVILLE, SYDNEY NSW
OCCUPATION: METAL WORKER AGE 32 USUAL RESIDENCE BEXLEY, SYDNEY NSW
FATHER:- ERNEST PHILLIP HOPE (DECEASED)
MOTHER:- NOT LISTED OCCUPATION OF FATHER LABOURER
BRIDE SARAH JANE TOWELL, SPINSTER, BIRTHPLACE HURSTVILLE, NSW OCCUPATION DOMESTIC DUTIES AGE 30 USUAL RESIDENCE BEXLEY, NSW
FATHER: THOMAS TOWELL (DECEASED) STEP MOTHER LISTED FOR MOTHER AS ELLEN RYAN. HER MOTHER IS ACTUAL SUSAN SPARKES.
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BOTH ERNEST HOPE AND SARAH JANE TOWELL HAD CHILDREN WITH OTHER PARTNERS BEFORE THEY MARRIED EACH OTHER.
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What names do you see for witnesses?
Can you give more details here please....names and birthplace of other children -
"..both Ernest HOPE and Sarah Jane TOWELL had children with other partners before they married each other.."
BDM NSW
26639/1913 HOPE Daphne T parents Ernest W / Adeline R @ Sydney
42046/1915 HOPE Reginald P parents Ernest W / Adeline R @ Redfern
It is difficult to read text which is all upper case. For family history it is useful to use upper case for family names. Otherwise, it is better to use lower case.
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Sorry forgot the caps lock. The witness's are J. Gannon and F. Lehmann.
for Reginald Percival HOPE born 22 September 1915, 29 George Street Redfern. Illegitimate on certificate. Father Ernest William HOPE Oil Packer as occupation aged 26, born in Sydney NSW
Mother is Adeline Formerly Lowe, now Bow age 25 born in South Australia. Informant Ernest Hope, Adeline Bow, father and Mother George Street Redfern. Registered 9 Oct 1915 in Redfern.
I don't have the birth record of Daphne. Adeline was married to a James BOW I think his name was, they did marry in Victoria. He was gaoled for bigamy about 1911. He and Adeline where living in Sydney. He joined up in WW1 and on his home service records say's he was single in 1918
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Sands Alphabetical Sydney 1890 Directory.
Hope, A.F. Barnsbury Grove, Marrickville.
That Grove was from Wardell Road to Fairfoul St.
JM
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His mother is from family records INDIAN!! Ernest Phillip HOPE was in the English Army and stationed in India where he met the mother of Ernest W F HOPE.
Are the 'family records' actual records or just hearsay? Does nobody have a photograph of Ernest?
Debra :)
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Hi Thanks for the information on the Sands Directory. I will have to follow up on that now. Maybe the name has been wrong all the time and the father possibly is A F HOPE (or relative) Seems like a coincidence a Hope in Marrickville the same year Ernest was born.
Every little bit of information helps.
I'm working on just family hearsay at the moment BUT the Indian blood is real as a DNA test has been done on the daughter of Ernest Hope and Sarah J. Towell Hope and this lady is 25% Indian. That is what is keeping me going. Thanks so much. Regards Dianna
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Hi Again. I will hunt around for a photo of Ernest as well. When I find more family members!! If possible. Kindest regards Dianna
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Hi Again also he seems to have attempted to join up in WW1 but was rejected. That could have been really helpful if he had of joined as there would have been some very useful information. Oh well!! Thanks Dianna
What is the word struck through where the enlistee signs his name on the digitised record for this?
It is between the initials E W and the word HOPE
Sue
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I have even tried to figure that out on the reverse of that page, but still cannot decipher enough letters to hazard anything but a guess. I think the first letter MAY chance to be a capital C ... and there may be a chance of the name being Cannon or Carson ... but I could be on the totally wrong tack.
JM
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"..Indian blood is real as a DNA test has been done on the daughter of Ernest Hope and Sarah J. Towell Hope and this lady is 25% Indian."
What was the other 75%..?
If there is Indian ancestry for a child of Ernest HOPE and Sarah TOWELL etc.....could this be from maternal (Sarah's) family?
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Hi Sue I have not been able to decipher that other name as yet. Will do some more research on that and take another look! Could be a clue! Thanks
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HI wivenhoe. The other 75% is Anglo-Irish, way back as far as I could go. Thank you Dianna
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Hi again Sue looks like CAMMON/CARMON???? Something like that, now I'm curious!!! I tried to attach the WW1 record here but can't work out how to do it!! Dianna
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At reply #9 ....marriage, HOPE / TOWELL....witness is J GANNON.
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HI Sue that is interesting. Good you picked that up!! Connection, who knows!! Hmm more thinking to do now. LOL. Thanks
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The enlistee was a storeman.
He gave the address of living as 2 Botany Street Redfern.
This was the premises of a car parts sales/ engineer I think.
Perhaps he was a store man there. Someone may be able to give more information about the address.
The railway records given previously also show store man as occ.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15809315
You need to track J. GANNON, witness as given by wivenhoe
Sue
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Reginald Percival HOPE born 22 September 1915, 29 George Street Redfern. Illegitimate on certificate. Father Ernest William HOPE Oil Packer as occupation aged 26, born in Sydney NSW
Mother is Adeline Formerly Lowe, now Bow age 25 born in South Australia. Informant Ernest Hope, Adeline Bow, father and Mother George Street Redfern. Registered 9 Oct 1915 in Redfern.
Did you know that Adeline's son Leonard Ernest BOW born Nov 1910 was not actually a BOW?
KING, Leonard Ernt Phil
Mother: Adeline Ruth WATT
Father: Ernt
CARLTON
1911
1423/1911
WATT was the maiden surname of Adeline's mother and considering the child's names I would say that your Ernest was the father, moonlighting as Ernest KING.
That makes this account of Adeline's husband's bigamy case very interesting reading.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64439738
Copy and paste this whole link to your browser:
https://stors.tas.gov.au/POL708-1-2$init=POL708-1-2p40jpg
Debra :)
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I don't think that Adeline's husband was a BOW either. He may have been born in 1884 as James Richard DOLLARD in South Australia to (Mary) Ellen McNEIL who then later married James Robert BOW.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra I'm trying to wrap my head around this whole thing now!!! So you think that ERNEST WILLIAM HOPE is an alias for ERNEST KING. It states in the newspaper article that KING and BOW are brothers, is this Ernie KING, telling lies to Violet OR are they perhaps 1/2 brothers OR more Aliases involved here.
It's turning into a book or mystery novel now.
1907 James Richard Alexander BOW born to Adeline and James
1908 Adeline Ruth LOWE marries James Richard BOW
1911 James Richard BOW in Gaol for Bigamy.
Did Ernie and Adeline have an affair while James R. BOW was in Gaol???
1911 LEONARD ERNEST PHILLIP KING born in Victoria to Ernie and Adeline
1913 DAPHNE THERESA HOPE/BOW/LOWE born in Sydney to Ernest William HOPE and Adeline BOW/LOWE
1915 REGINALD PERCY HOPE etc born in Sydney to Ernest and Adeline # NOTE say's father born SYDNEY on this birth certificate! September 1915
1915 JAMES RICHARD BOW joins WW1 29/10/1915 N OF KIN Ruth Adeline BOW. Sydney
1916 ERNEST WILLIAM HOPE tried to join WW1 and rejected Sydney.
1918 On one of James Richard BOW'S Home Service records for WW1 he states his mother Ellen is his next of kin and that he is SINGLE. So split up from Adeline!
1923 ERNEST WILLIAM FRANCIS HOPE marries SARAH J TOWELL. His father's name is ERNEST PHILLIP HOPE (or is it????). He dies in Sydney in 1952 Going Dizzy trying to work this out. Extremely interesting.
So did all three of them come up to Sydney together?? Were Ernest KING/HOPE and JAMES RICHARD BOW brothers??? Very curious how this son LEONARD has the middle names ERNEST PHILLIP??? Maybe I will be able to find a birth and relevant details by looking for ERNEST KING/ERNEST WILLIAM KING. Thanks so much still working on the timeline. Regards Dianna
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I think that the marriage of James Richard BOW and Adeline Ruth LOWE did not last very long, and I wonder if James Richard Alexander BOW, born 1907, Melbourne, was really the only child he had with Adeline Ruth.
Ancestry Victoria Police Gazette Apr 8 1909
James Richard BOW is inquired for by his wife, Adeline Ruth BOW, 52 Kerr-Street Fitzroy, of Fitzroy, on the 3rd ult.
BDM VIC
13374/1907 BOW James Richard Alex parents Ruth WATT / James Richard
born Port Melbourne
13374/1907 LOWE Jas Richd Alexr parents Ruth WATT / -
born Port Melbourne
13374/1907 WATT Jas Richd Alex parents Ruth WATT / -
born Port Melbourne
17559/1909 BOW Doreen Ruth parents Adeline Ruth LOWE / James Richard
born CARLTON
There are several articles in Tasmania newspapers on the matter of the marriage of
James Richard BOW, married Adeline Ruth LOWE Oct 28 1908 Melbourne...and (bigamously)
Violet Leith ROBINS married Jan 4 1911, Burnie Tasmania.
James was back in Melbourne to be at home when Police Officer called.
North Western Advocate and Emu Bay Times 7 Mar 1911 p4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64447379?
* Ruth LOWE, who entered the witness box with a little boy about 4 years of ago, said she resided at 294 Lygon street, Carlton.
* Witness (Ruth LOWE) came over to Burnie on January 18, and met the accused on arrival,
when asked her what she came for, and she replied 'For you!' Shortly after she asked him whether it was' true that ho had married Violet Robbins, and he replied 'Yes!' Up to the time of Bow's arrest he had been living in the same house with witness and her daughter (accused's wife)
Examiner 11 Apr 1911 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50470198?
* (James Richard BOW) was with Ditchams Travelling show when he came to Burnie.
* James Richard BOW told Violet that he was Ernie KING's brother, and that the latter was in Hobart. Witness wrote to King, and received a reply, telling her not to go out walking with BOWE, as he was a married man and had a child.
I suspect that the quality of proof reading and reporting is not great, I think the substance of the story indicates that in Burnie, January 1911, there is someone who knows James Richard BOWE, knows that he is married, knows where to contact his family in Melbourne.
James Richard BOW is described as having one child. Ruth LOWE brings a four year old boy with her from Melbourne. He is not identified as being her grandson, or son of James Richard BOW. You might reasonably suppose that this boy is James Richard Alexander BOW, born 1907.
Who is father of Doreen Ruth BOW born 1909?
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Even though the person of interest in this query is Ernest HOPE, I do think that the BOW situation should also be sorted just to get a better idea of the relationships and geography when Ernest met Adeline. I have no idea if he is 'Ernie KING' and also the father of Leonard but that birth cert will give information about the father - age, occupation and place of birth. I would also like to know who the informant was, the father or the mother.
This might seem a bit :o but I will also float the idea that the mother of James Richard born in 1907 was actually Adeline's mother Ruth LOWE formerly WATT. She was born in SA in 1868 so still only 39 years old and the way the birth is indexed does suggest that she is the mother rather than Adeline. The one child of James and Adeline referred to in the court case would be Doreen.
BDM VIC
13374/1907 BOW James Richard Alex parents Ruth WATT / James Richard
born Port Melbourne
13374/1907 LOWE Jas Richd Alexr parents Ruth WATT / -
born Port Melbourne
13374/1907 WATT Jas Richd Alex parents Ruth WATT / -
born Port Melbourne
* Ruth LOWE, who entered the witness box with a little boy about 4 years of ago, said she resided at 294 Lygon street, Carlton.
Let's have a look at electoral rolls, bearing in mind that Adeline was born in 1891 so cannot be 'Ruth' in 1909.
1909
52 Kerr Street, Fitzroy, Vic
James Richard BOW, Pastrycook
Ruth BOW
1912/1913/1914
19 David Street, Carlton, Vic
James Richard BOW, Actor
Ruth BOW
1913
541 Crown Street, Surrey Hills, NSW
James Richard BOW, Actor
Ruth BOW
In 1918 Ruth LOWE remarried to William Bruce DUNCAN in Sydney. She claimed to be 38 years old (she was 50) and he was 25. Adeline Ruth BOW and Maud BOW were witnesses.
I think that Ruth went to Tas to get him for herself as Adeline had already moved on.
Debra :)
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Debra....I think that the scenario you are suggesting is very possible. Also, without a birth registration to see for Doreen, it is possible that James Richard BOW was married off to a pregnant Adeline.
James Richard BOW would seem to be rather gullible, easily lead. Was Violet Leith ROBBINS also a pregnant girl whose mother wants her married.....would explain the suggestion that James was intoxicated. All speculation, of course.
I think that Ruth LOWE's interest to get to Burnie as soon as possible is to work with James on their statements later in court.
The bigamy trial would be widely reported in the papers....the domestic partnership arrangements at 294 Lygon St would also be fodder for the press if known.
So who is Ernie KING a brother to? At 1911 Ernie is "in Hobart". I do not think he lives there. The ROBBINS know him because he lives in the Burnie area.
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HI wivenhoe/Debra
I've been working on this family all day and collecting every little bit of data I can. I will post it here a bit later! I am looking at available photos for the children of Ernest W. HOPE as he is supposed to be 1/2?? INDIAN. So looking for anything that may suggest this inherited in his children.
So is this ERNIE KING a native of Tasmania!! How could he be James R BOW'S brother?? Cant get that connection.
Also thank you for the tip on Ruth's marriage to William Bruce DUNCAN. I found Ruth Duncan's funeral notice. Jan 27 1923. Leaving from the residence of her daughter Mrs A. WALTON. So Adeline (LOWE/BOW) Walton is with her new partner in 1923, the same year that Ernest William F. HOPE marries Sarah J. Towell.
A bit more to put together but it seems to be making a little more sense (sort of).
So 5 kids for Adeline LOWE/BOW ie 2 with James Richard BOW, 2 with Ernest William HOPE in Sydney and the other one Leonard Ernest Phillip KING, only used the name BOW through his life. Maybe never knew the truth. He and his wife Frances lost three children as Infants in the 1930's really sad, all buried together in Botany Cemetery.
I'm just tracking down now any information for the death/funeral of Doreen BOW-WALTON who died in Nowra NSW in 1989, I couldn't find anything on Ryerson for her. I will have to contact the Nowra library I think see if they can help.
Doreens husband Leslie Russell seems to have died in 2004, 18th of Feb. Published in the South Coast Register 07 JULY 2004. Hmmm.
So I guess photos of the children of Ernest William are what I'm looking for. I have one of REGINALD PERCY and one of his daughter.
Just need one of Daphne Theresa HOPE-ROBINSON who died 2009, children Mervyn, Barry and Wayne (all deceased). So the hunt continues should have my timeline completed soon and see where to go from there.
I need as well some more information on ERNIE KING, where did he end up?? Is he ERNEST WILLIAM HOPE. A photo of Ernie KING would be handy as he would be 1/2 Indian if he is in fact ERNEST WILLIAM HOPE. Wow what a story. Thanks so much to everyone. Regards Dianna
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I see no evidence that Ernest KING and James Richard BOW were brothers.
There was a couple who were resident a Broken Hill , James Robert BOW and Mary Ellen BOW ( nee McNEIL) who had a number of children there as well as some in South Australia. I do not yet see a birth for James Richard but a death in NSW would suggest he is child of this couple.
BOW James Richard
Reg 10551/Yr 1937
Father JAMES HEBERT
mother MARY ELLEN
At NEWTOWN, NSW
He was in Broken Hill lin 1913 and in trouble.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/80072599
On his two WW1 attestations, young James states born South Australia.
He had gone back to his home with mother Mary Ellen by his 1918 (2nd ) attestation details.
I don't see a connection to Ernest KING in this.
Sue
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I was wondering why young Violet would approach a man she didn't know and ask was if he was Ernest. When James replied that he was his brother, I thought perhaps Ernest and James were the same person using an alias.
However, a check of their WWI records showed a height and age difference. Although the description of James is interesting: Hair, black: eyes, brown: complexion, dark. I wonder if that's why Violet asked the question. Perhaps they have a similar heritage. Maybe the comment "he's my brother" related to heritage, not actual blood brothers.
This is pure conjecture, of course.
It might be worth doing more checking of James family to see what can be discovered.
Regards
Jennaya
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There was a couple who were resident a Broken Hill , James Robert BOW and Mary Ellen BOW ( nee McNEIL) who had a number of children there as well as some in South Australia. I do not yet see a birth for James Richard but a death in NSW would suggest he is child of this couple.
BOW James Richard
Reg 10551/Yr 1937
Father JAMES HEBERT
mother MARY ELLEN
At NEWTOWN, NSW
My guess at who James Richard was.
I don't think that Adeline's husband was a BOW either. He may have been born in 1884 as James Richard DOLLARD in South Australia to (Mary) Ellen McNEIL who then later married James Robert BOW.
Debra :)
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So 5 kids for Adeline LOWE/BOW ie 2 with James Richard BOW, 2 with Ernest William HOPE in Sydney and the other one Leonard Ernest Phillip KING, only used the name BOW through his life.
She also had at least one child with Robert Edward WALTON - Edward Arthur who died in 1956.
It also looks like Ruth's daughter Rachael Maud/Maud Rachael married James Richard's brother (William) Alexander BOW and she is the one who was the witness at Ruth's marriage in 1918.
In 1918 Ruth LOWE remarried to William Bruce DUNCAN in Sydney. She claimed to be 38 years old (she was 50) and he was 25. Adeline Ruth BOW and Maud BOW were witnesses.
It is certainly a tangled web.
Debra :)
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Edward WALTON's death notice
Ros
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HI Thanks to everyone for their replies and help. Rosball and Dundee thank you for finding the 'Extra" child to add to the list Edward Arthur Walton. Now have to chase up the "unkown" siblings Michael and Annie.
Also Maude R. LOWE was married to William Alexander BOW, he was in WW1 as well AND living at 588 Crown St Surry Hills NSW. Same address as his brother James Richard and wife Adeline Ruth LOWE.
So two sisters marrying two brothers. Still trying to figure out the movements of ADELINE RUTH LOWE/BOW between being with James BOW and hooking up with ERNEST HOPE. So many mysteries here.
It may be that James Richard BOW listed Adeline R. BOW as next of kin, even though she was not living with him!! Just a thought, I have seen this before with my own Grandmother.
Maybe the death certificate of Adeline R WALTON may prove interesting?? What a story and all just to find the origins of ERNEST WILLIAM HOPE. Kindest regards Dianna
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Hello!
So exciting to read this I have been at a stalemate since 1984, when I first started trying to work out my family tree.
Ruth Watt, and Adeline with James Bow is a very interesting entanglement.
Oddly enough the night I read this, I noted I had also received a msg on Ancestry -- here is tidbit of information I received from that.
"Ernest later married Sarah Towell (my great grandmother) and had eight children with her. Essentially, we understand that Reginald was my grandmother's half-brother whom she knew of, but he was never disclosed to her as a relative, always just a "family friend". We suspect this may be something to do some sort of shame associated with the fact that he had been married to another woman before meeting Sarah.
We have tried going back through Ernest's family tree, however we can't find anything about him - we understand he migrated to Australia from Mumbai, India at some point in time. My grandmother has memories of him speaking in Hindi, but that's about it."
So the Indian link has two sources - or you guys are related? and discussing family history.
By the way my name is Lu-Ann Randall - Viki Joy Hope was my mother - Her father was Reginald P Hope and Mother was Una Beryl nee Colless. Ernest William Francis is my grandfather's Father.
I have no family history, in that both Viki's parents were had passed by the time she was 14.
Reginald's story:
When Reginald Percival HOPE was born on 22 September 1915 in Sydney, New South Wales, his father, Ernest, was 25 and his mother, Adeline, was 24. He married Norah Ellen Trembath and they had one daughter together. He then married Una Beryl Colless and they had one daughter together. He died on 31 January 1965 at the age of 49.
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I should also note - that on Reginald and Norah's Wedding certificate, his parents were noted as Ernest Philip (one /l/) Hope and Adeline Ruth. On his wedding certificate to Una, Reginald's father is identified as Ernest Phillip (two /l/). As Ernest went on to marry Sarah, there is a chance that Reginald didn't really know his father thus made an error on his wedding certificates.
Thus I am curious about your note that Ernest Philip is Ernest William Frances Hope's father - I am thinking they are one in the same.
Thoughts?
I got very excited when I found that an Ann Desilva born 1892 married Ernest Hope 18 Jun 1912 Agra Bengal India, and a child born in 1915 in India ... but this is the only Ernest I found mentioned in Indian births, deaths and marriages. Realised that it was Reginald born in 1915 .... so off on the wrong trail.
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Hi all
What a bizarre thing to find a forum of people also trying to find the origins of the Hope lineage. I am the great granddaughter of Ernest William Hope and sent Lu-Ann the message. Unfortunately, I live in SA, with my grandmother (Ernest's daughter) in NSW, so I don't have any pictures or records to hand, but I will post when I can.
Ernest was definitely born in India (Bombay, now Mumbai). When he came out, we don't know. Interestingly, he was an acrobat and used to perform shows for the community (we have a photo of him doing a handstand on three chairs balancing on top of one another). It may have been that he picked those skills up in India, but we don't know how he learnt to do those tricks. My Nan describes him as being a very kind, gentle and loving man. He also had malaria. I believe he died in 1952, a few months before my Nan's 21st birthday - it was relatively sudden - he felt ill one afternoon and died that evening, but no one knew the cause of death.
He had eight children with Sarah Towell. All but one of them had dark brown hair, dark brown eyes and somewhat dark skin (the only one that didn't we suspect was adopted by Ernest and Sarah at one point). It is only really in my generation that the dark features have started to lessen, but these are prominent features on my Nan's side of the family.
Happy to answer any questions, but I am afraid I probably won't be of much help. My Nan is now 89 and the last alive of her brothers and sisters - we are best friends and she has always wondered about where her Dad came from, so I would love to be able to piece it together for her. She isn't great with computers, so if you have any questions for her, please let me know and I can ask.
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I should also note - that on Reginald and Norah's Wedding certificate, his parents were noted as Ernest Philip (one /l/) Hope and Adeline Ruth. On his wedding certificate to Una, Reginald's father is identified as Ernest Phillip (two /l/). As Ernest went on to marry Sarah, there is a chance that Reginald didn't really know his father thus made an error on his wedding certificates.
Thus I am curious about your note that Ernest Philip is Ernest William Frances Hope's father - I am thinking they are one in the same.
Thoughts?
I got very excited when I found that an Ann Desilva born 1892 married Ernest Hope 18 Jun 1912 Agra Bengal India, and a child born in 1915 in India ... but this is the only Ernest I found mentioned in Indian births, deaths and marriages. Realised that it was Reginald born in 1915 .... so off on the wrong trail.
Just on your point about whether Reginald knew Ernest, I understand that they were in contact after Ernest and Sarah married. My Nan has a recollection of meeting Reginald ("Reggie") and his wife Norah and daughter Beverly. They were introduced to my Nan as family friends and Reginald as "Reggie Turner". My nan was maybe about 7 at this time (1931), but her and her siblings always suspected that Reggie was a relation to them - her sister once overheard Ernest and Sarah talking about how "they would explain Reggie to them". Also because Reggie shared similar dark features to them, which weren't common around the Belmore area at that time (the kids were called racial slurs at school due to their dark features). It was only last year that we confirmed Reggie was Ernest's son to another woman. We actually found Beverly, and my Nan was able to get in touch with her after all these years.
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Just to clarify, my Nan was born in 1931*
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In regards to Reggie knowing Ernest - I was speaking from a more intimate level. How often do middle names come up in conversation? I have heard that he visited, but that is very different from living and growing up within a family :-) those nuances may not come up. Or did Ernest actually attend his son's weddings - and wrote down the wrong middle name himself?
Someone else directed me to seek out Beverly :-) I was just unsure how much connection she also had with her biological dad, but then she was 26 year old when her dad past. Plus when I was first doing this and found Beverly I was a teenager, and the information I got from Legacy was that her name was Joyce Agnes, Beverly had been crossed out. So definitely a trail that I should look into :-)
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Hi I cannot believe someone replied to this message/messages who is actually related. I am Rodneys aunty by marriage and I tried to take on this research because I found it so fascinating. Only on Xmas day did Rodney mention to me the story of the chair and the balancing act. Absolutely amazing, surely there must be some way we can work out the origins of Ernest HOPE. I have a few certificates I purchased. Will read over everything again now. You must be Betty's granddaughter is that correct. Wow great to speak with you. Regards Dianna
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Hi Jsmp. Do you think you could please ask your Grandmother about the story of the child who was burnt/killed in the fire. I believe/think she may have been the sister of Ernest William Francis HOPE your Great Grandfather or some relative at least. I looked everywhere in the trove newspaper site but could not find anything. The same with trying to find Ernest's birth in NSW. Just not there!! Of course he could have been born anywhere!!! Anyway will be fun to see what turns up, I know Betty had a DNA test (according to your cousin Rodney) and it showed 25% Indian blood, was that correct. Anyway hope we can find out more about Ernie. LOL. Regards Dianna
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Hi I cannot believe someone replied to this message/messages who is actually related. I am Rodneys aunty by marriage and I tried to take on this research because I found it so fascinating. Only on Xmas day did Rodney mention to me the story of the chair and the balancing act. Absolutely amazing, surely there must be some way we can work out the origins of Ernest HOPE. I have a few certificates I purchased. Will read over everything again now. You must be Betty's granddaughter is that correct. Wow great to speak with you. Regards Dianna
Hi Dianna, yes I am Betty's granddaughter. One of my middle names is "Sarah" - after Sarah Jane Towell. I am 27 in May, and saw Rodney for the first time since I was a little girl last year at Aunty Marge and Uncle Cyril's sending off (you can definitely see the Indian blood in Rodney!).
I am sure there must be something out there that could lead us on the right track - I am thinking military records at least. I suspect Ernest W F Hope's father was a British soldier stationed in Bombay (Mumbai) - I can't think of another situation that would put him in India in the mid to late 1800s. His mother must have been Indian given his surname. Another piece of information I know of that shows the Indian connection is that Ernest W F Hope used to call Sarah Jane "Memsaab" as a nickname, which means a woman in a position of authority (haha!). We don't know how they met, but apparently Sarah's family didn't speak with her (other than her brother), sadly because Ernest was a brown man.
Hi Jsmp. Do you think you could please ask your Grandmother about the story of the child who was burnt/killed in the fire. I believe/think she may have been the sister of Ernest William Francis HOPE your Great Grandfather or some relative at least. I looked everywhere in the trove newspaper site but could not find anything. The same with trying to find Ernest's birth in NSW. Just not there!! Of course he could have been born anywhere!!! Anyway will be fun to see what turns up, I know Betty had a DNA test (according to your cousin Rodney) and it showed 25% Indian blood, was that correct. Anyway hope we can find out more about Ernie. LOL. Regards Dianna
I have heard the story about his sister dying in the fire, but nothing more than that. My Nan never met her or knew of her. I will ask her about it when I speak to her today (we speak every day in case you have more questions). Yes, she had the DNA test showing 25% Indian (slight mix of North and South India), I will send you a copy.
When I spoke with Beverly Hope (Reginald's daughter to Norah), she also understood Ernest performed at the Tivoli Theatre at one point with his acrobatics, but I haven't been able to find anything that puts him as a performer there.
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Hi loupyloo2u. Was you mum Viki-Joy Freeman Hope. I'm looking at a photo of her now. LOL how strange. Dianna
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In regards to Reggie knowing Ernest - I was speaking from a more intimate level. How often do middle names come up in conversation? I have heard that he visited, but that is very different from living and growing up within a family :-) those nuances may not come up. Or did Ernest actually attend his son's weddings - and wrote down the wrong middle name himself?
Someone else directed me to seek out Beverly :-) I was just unsure how much connection she also had with her biological dad, but then she was 26 year old when her dad past. Plus when I was first doing this and found Beverly I was a teenager, and the information I got from Legacy was that her name was Joyce Agnes, Beverly had been crossed out. So definitely a trail that I should look into :-)
Hi Lu
I also suspect Philip to be a red herring and have questioned whether this was an error when describing Ernest W F Hope. Such mistakes can easily be made - indeed, as you say, Reggie may just not have known his father's middle name or have been confused as to what it was. There doesn't seem to be anything more that would suggest him to be Ernest WF Hope's father and no contemporaneous records indicating otherwise.
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Sorry guy's but on Ernest William Francis HOPE'S marriage to Sarah Jane Towell it states his dad is ERNES PHILLIP HOPE deceased and that Ernie was a 32 year old Bachelor born in Marrickville Sydney NSW, Occupation Metal Worker. So very confusing really!!! Would be interesting to see the birth certificates of the children of Sarah Jane Towell and Ernest W. F. HOPE. Will we ever figure this out???
Regards Dianna
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OOPs forgot the "T" on Ernest Phillip! Also mother NOT LISTED, that is really strange, Dianna
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Sorry guy's but on Ernest William Francis HOPE'S marriage to Sarah Jane Towell it states his dad is ERNES PHILLIP HOPE deceased and that Ernie was a 32 year old Bachelor born in Marrickville Sydney NSW, Occupation Metal Worker. So very confusing really!!! Would be interesting to see the birth certificates of the children of Sarah Jane Towell and Ernest W. F. HOPE. Will we ever figure this out???
Regards Dianna
Interesting... I wonder what he was doing in India then? Perhaps as an Australian soldier? Surely there would be corroborating military records if so. Anyone else have any idea of a reason that would put him in Bombay?
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Hi Dianna,
Yes, my biological mother was Viki Joy Hope, known as Freeman when she died. As you can see, she had very dark hair and eyes which makes the Indian heritage likely.
The problem is that Ernest William Francis Hope says he was born in 9 Jun 1890 Marrickville, NSW - but I can't find that record. If he was born in England or India - why would he say Marrickville. We now have two different family members from his second marriage both saying there were Indian links - he spoke Hindi, (learnt from his mum or from living in India?) and had dark features. So his dad has to be half India or something else, and English.
So the question - was Ernest William Francis born here like he said, but undocumented. Was he born on a boat on the way from India to here? So who was his dad, was it an Ernest Phillip ... was he station as military in India, or trade working in India. My mother in law said people would take passage on cargo ships from India to Australia at this time, up to 30 passengers per cargo ship.
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I'm curious in what context Ernest WF spoke Hindi - did he self talk to himself? Or was he observed to speak to others in Hindi?
How did Sarah and Ernest meet? does anyone have that story :-)
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So I have done my DNA 8% southern Indian. So there is now that as confirmation for this thread that there is another link to Ernest William Hope being of Indian descent.
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There was a British celebrity on Who Do You Think You Are, who uncovered Indian heritage. A soldier who was stationed there had a child to an Indian woman. When the soldier died, the child was sent back to Britain to be raised by her grandparents, and the Indian heritage was covered up. I can't remember the celebrity's name; however I was wondering if a similar situation could have happened in your family. This would explain the lack of knowledge about his mother and his own birthplace.
EDIT The celebrity was Olivia Colman - her ancestor was employed as a soldier by the East India Company