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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ian Nelson on Tuesday 15 September 20 12:33 BST (UK)
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some detective work needed , or mere speculation, anything at all. Why were these 15 people resident in Wakeman's Household for the 1851 Census at Ranelagh Place, Liverpool ( March 30th.)
It may or may not have been the original Adelphi Hotel. The Grand National was on February 24th. So why would 15 people come together, comprising 3 Solicitors, 1 Shipbuilder, 1 Annuitant, 2 Ladies and the rest Merchants ? The launch of a ship ? The forming of a Trading Company or an AGM of an existing company. The remainder of the Wilson ( Solicitors) family are at home in Broughton , Preston, Lancashire even though WR Wilson is stated as being Unmarried ( he was at least twice married) Help! , cheers Ian
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Did you look at the original image?
They are guests at the Adelphi Hotel.
They aren't in Wakeman's household. The first name at the top of the page is James Radley, hotel keeper.
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Thanks Jen. I got the info from familysearch.org. I tried the British History site and Wikipedia to find out more about the Adelphi and Ranelagh Place but was stumped.
I read that the later Adelphi when owned by a Railway Company had 402 bedrooms, so was wondering why a Census would only show 15 residents.
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There's a fair chance there are more hotel guests on the next pages of the census....
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was wondering why a Census would only show 15 residents.
Going back to the original image I make it 28 'visitors'.
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The first name at the top of the page is James Radley, hotel keeper.
It seems he was the original owner, opening it in 1826.
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How can I access the Census for that occasion to find the other residents? The Wilson solicitors are at the centre of my researches and it appears that WR Wilson's father accepted a double-barrelled surname after being named as an heir in a married relative's Uncle's will due to lack of offspring. That of Wilson-Ffrance. I'm chasing up the possibility of either Edward or his father as being the real father of Jane Dickinson's son James prior to her marrying John Cathcart ( the Patsy)
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was wondering why a Census would only show 15 residents.
Going back to the original image I make it 28 'visitors'.
There are 39 visitors in total, including The Earl of Selkirk, about 56 people in total including servants.
Stan
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How can I access the Census for that occasion to find the other residents?
The entry for the Adelphi starts at HO107/2182/129/54.
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Thanks Jen. I got the info from familysearch.org. I tried the British History site and Wikipedia to find out more about the Adelphi and Ranelagh Place but was stumped.
I read that the later Adelphi when owned by a Railway Company had 402 bedrooms, so was wondering why a Census would only show 15 residents.
The first Adelphi Hotel, which opened in 1826, was demolished in 1876, and the new hotel had over 300 rooms. That was again demolished and the present building opened in 1914. The first Hotel would not have had 402 rooms or anything like that, that is the number of rooms in the present hotel.
See https://www.britanniahotels.com/hotels/the-adelphi-hotel-liverpool/history
Stan
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I read that Radley had opened the first Adelphi by combining 2 existing townhouses but the next one was built on Ranelagh Gardens open green space.
So the original had at least 28 residents. Were they all there for a common purpose. The first list from familysearch.org seems to suggest that they may have been gathering for an event. The Wilsons only lived up the Railtrack at Preston so it must have been an 'occasion'.
What method do you use for accessing the Census in full ... I'm about to be persuaded to splash some cash for my birthday but I don't really want findmypast or ancestry.
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So the original had at least 28 residents.
In 1851 there were 39 visitors plus 17 hotel staff, who were resident on the census night, making 56 in total.
Stan
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Could you perhaps explain what it is about the guests at the hotel that makes you believe they were gathering for a specific event?
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Could you perhaps explain what it is about the guests at the hotel that makes you believe they were gathering for a specific event?
Not really, an inkling, I feel it in my water, I'm a naturally suspicious person and I love conspiracy theories. Was there a JFK type incident in Liverpool at that time, did Jenny Lind appear onstage, was there a Royal Visit, a ship launch or a new rail station opened, or a Festival of some kind. I don't think people would go to Liverpool unless they had a specific purpose, it's hardly a tourist attraction in the 1850s.
There may be no good reason at all ... but if there was ....
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So the original had at least 28 residents.
In 1851 there were 39 visitors plus 17 hotel staff, who were resident on the census night, making 56 in total.
Stan
Thanks, what method do you use to get the Census info?
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was wondering why a Census would only show 15 residents.
Going back to the original image I make it 28 'visitors'.
There are 39 visitors in total, including The Earl of Selkirk, about 56 people in total including servants.
Stan
Maths has never been my strong point, but try as I might I can't see more than 29 people categorized as 'visitors'.
15 on p. 54, 6 on p. 55 and 8 on p. 56
Please tell me where I'm going wrong :-\
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Not really, an inkling, I feel it in my water, I'm a naturally suspicious person and I love conspiracy theories.
I'm the opposite: I see people staying at a hotel. The end ;D
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JenB, there's a lockdown and it's raining in my garden and I've done the shopping and bought and used a battery-op handheld bag-free vacuum spider sucker-upper and I've no books left and I can't face re-re-reading my favourites ... I can't even give them away.
So, why was Wilson & Wilson & Trinder staying at a hotel when they lived nearby.
The Great Exhibition at Crystal Palace was on in London from May to October, but what was happening in Liverpool. When did the Mersey Tunnel open? I'll look that one up
PS not the tunnel
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was wondering why a Census would only show 15 residents.
Going back to the original image I make it 28 'visitors'.
There are 39 visitors in total, including The Earl of Selkirk, about 56 people in total including servants.
Stan
Maths has never been my strong point, but try as I might I can't see more than 29 people categorized as 'visitors'.
15 on p. 54, 6 on p. 55 and 8 on p. 56
Please tell me where I'm going wrong :-\
Sorry my mistake, I did not realise there were so many servants :-[
Stan
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Ah! so it was the 'Quality' who were resident. I wonder why?
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Could you perhaps explain what it is about the guests at the hotel that makes you believe they were gathering for a specific event?
Not really, an inkling, I feel it in my water, I'm a naturally suspicious person and I love conspiracy theories. Was there a JFK type incident in Liverpool at that time, did Jenny Lind appear onstage, was there a Royal Visit, a ship launch or a new rail station opened, or a Festival of some kind. I don't think people would go to Liverpool unless they had a specific purpose, it's hardly a tourist attraction in the 1850s.
There may be no good reason at all ... but if there was ....
There is nothing outstanding in the newspapers that weekend. Don't forget that Liverpool was a leading port of the British Empire, and was the main port for transatlantic passenger travel.
Stan
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So, why was Wilson & Wilson & Trinder staying at a hotel when they lived nearby.
As the Wilsons were probably father and son why should they not be staying at a nice hotel in Liverpool prior to having work to go to in Liverpool the following week. In 1851 the rest of the family were at Broughton House, Broughton -by 1861 Edward was living there with his wife and children
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Thanks Stan ... I checked as much as I could about ship launches, departures arrivals and collisions and nothing of significance emerged. The Marco Polo clipper history was useful and interesting. Predictable ending though ... wouldn't want to have been their insurer throughout its blighted career.
Well Rosie, I guess you're not into conspiracies, but I wonder why they were there at all as they were practising Solicitors in their home towns, I believe.(without proof)
I refuse to contemplate ' why not ' ... there has to be a reason
keep taking the tablets, cheers, Ian
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They had assembled very quietly, at that location, for the sole purpose of confusing their descendants. As well as using as many initials as possible, they dined splendidly on turbot imported (port, you see) followed by wild Venison shipped down from Scotland, and Cornish crab rushed up by sea and rail. The Manchester Tart ( a confection, not a lady of ill repute, I haste to say) was rushed to the venue via rail from Manchester, and a good time was had by all.
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keep taking the tablets,
I hope you are referring to yourself rather than the rest of us ;D
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I take mine morning and night, noon I choose my own poison.
I reverted to Google and lo! and behold!
Ship events in March 1851.
There are dozens of shipping disasters and many related to ships of the Black Ball Line. Liverpool figures prominently in some of these tales. Perhaps all the conspirators were 'names' at Lloyd's and were meeting to agree their losses. In those days of the clipper ships many were built at St.John's New Brunswick and you may recall one of the guys was from Greenwell NB, and 1 was a shipbuilder.
Ships with a connection to March disasters were; the Annie, the William Wilson, the Sovereign, the Bramwell, the Veloz ( Carrera from Spain was present), and the Eldorado.
and that's not counting the ill-fated Marco Polo
there has to be more to it ...
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It is all assumption though, I will leave you to prove it. As for the tablets, I don't take any
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Ah Rosie, but ... if I didn't keep asking the question, 'what if ?' I would never had discovered most of what I now know about my direct ancestors ( thanks to Rootschatter detectives) and I would never have came across a real live .. Jethro Horn Blower, a Wine Merchant from Truro. You couldn't make him up. I would never have discovered my great Grandfather was an Army Deserter and that my Great Grandmother spent much of her short married life in Workhouses on the Isle of Wight only to be dead by the too young age of 26.
cheers, Ian
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The Manchester Tart ( a confection, not a lady of ill repute, I haste to say) was rushed to the venue via rail from Manchester, and a good time was had by all.
Ah, but you can't prove that Liverpool Lou wasn't at the hotel, leaving before midnight so that she wasn't included on the census. ;D
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True.... but equally well, unless you actually have her at an address on Census night, you cannot prove she was, either!!
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I presume that you have looked to see who is staying there in 1861. Occupations are very similar
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seems to be against her nature to stay home, I think she was at the Adelphi
' Oh Liverpool Lou, lovely Liverpool Lou
Why don't you behave, love, like the other girls do?
Why must my poor heart be following you
Stay home and love me, my Liverpool Lou
Still searching for how to access the 2nd page of the census on familysearch.org
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2nd page. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGLQ-GLR
Which included transcription of the following page which starts at Siboria Vergara
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2nd page. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGLQ-GLR
Which included transcription of the following page which starts at Siboria Vergara
Also there that night were "Early Selkirke, occupation Peer of the Realser" and the female Methuselah Mary Ann Bergins, age 999, birthplace not known. ;D
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2nd page. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGLQ-GLR
Which included transcription of the following page which starts at Siboria Vergara
Also there that night were "Early Selkirke, occupation Peer of the Realser" and the female Methuselah Mary Ann Bergins, age 999, birthplace not known. ;D
Yes, some delightful transcribing there :-X
At least Siboria Vergara was correctly transcribed.
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The South Lancashire Spring Assizes were at Liverpool Crown Court over the 2 weeks either side of the 1851 Census-.....might be relevant?!
djm297
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Is there any way to find out what issues were before the Court at that time? An Inquiry into a ship loss? These Merchants are from all over the world, Canada, United States, Colombo + Ecuador, Spain, Portugal, Russia and Ireland, not counting England and Scotland. Curious that there was a damaged ship called the William Wilson when we have William Wilson (Solicitor) connected to the Wilsons resident at the Adelphi.
Perhaps they are Joint owners of a ship or the cargo and there has been an incident with loss.
I suspect Mary Ann Bergins is an alias for Liverpool Lou. I'm going to Google all those Merchants, later, because I need to get out more :o
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Thanks to all who have added to the knowledge .... together we'll solve the mystery and find the 'patsy'.
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Is there any way to find out what issues were before the Court at that time?
I suspect Mary Ann Bergins is an alias for Liverpool Lou.
Newspapers?
No old age pensions for ordinary working girls in those days. Liverpool Lou would have had to keep on working for as long as possible.
What interests did the Earl of Selkirk have?
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In February the Assizes were at Lancaster , and there is a newspaper account stating that "In accordance with ancient custom", the High Sherriff of Lancashire, processed through the town to meet the Judges. Amongst the gentlemen present are "Mr J W R Wilson-under sheriff and son".
In the Liverpool Mercury in March/ April 1851 , there is a similar account of the High Sheriff's procession-describing his coach, together with accounts of the Court proceedings. However I can not find any mention of the Wilsons!
djm297
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Dunbar James DOUGLAS
6th Earl of Selkirk, aka Lord Daer. He held the office of Lord-Lieutenant of the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright between 1844 and 1885.1 He held the office of Keeper of the Great Seal [Scotland] between August 1852 and December 1852.1 He held the office of Keeper of the Great Seal [Scotland] from 1858 to 1859. The DOUGLASes were prominent Celtic-Norman Aristocracy along with Robert the Bruce, etc! He married Cecily Louisa Grey-Egerton, daughter of Sir Philip de Malpas Grey-Egerton, 10th Bt.
He was not a lawyer but could represent the Crown in certain Proceedings and Ceremonials.
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There is a line of Lawyers in the Wilson clan. I have it somewhere in my files about JWR Wilson, I think, receiving something in the will of someone's wife's uncle using the surname Ffrance and he added it to his own name but some of his sons did not and remained as Wilsons even though their brothers and cousins present at their weddings were mostly known as Wilson-France. I think Broughton and a nearby estate were involved.
http://thepeerage.com/p45538.htm#i455371
Thomas Robert Wilson Ffrance of Rawcliffe Hall, Lancashire
Squire John ffrance (1727–1817), was the son of John ffrance Senior and Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Roe, and he lived at Rawcliffe Hall in the Fylde, about 5 miles from Cockerham
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Lighting a candle to show the way .... perhaps.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090904184055/http://www.prices-candles.co.uk/history/historydetail.asp
Wilson and Lancaster formed a Candle Company and named it the Edward Price Company later dropping the Edward and it became the World's largest Candle Company, then expanded into Oils and other chemicals and when their factory at Battersea became too small they BUILT A FACTORY AT LIVERPOOL.
They imported palm oil from Indonesia, tallow from Russia, coconuts from West Africa and possibly South America.
In 1830 a middle-aged Scotsman living in London was considering his business future. He was no stranger to commercial failure. As a young man in Scotland he had seen the collapse of his father's iron works in 1812 during the economic slump of the Napoleonic Wars. He had then traveled south to London and set himself up as a successful merchant in the 'Russia trade', importing goods from Moscow and St Petersburg. Now at the age of 58, William Wilson, was approached by his partner, with an invitation to go into a new venture: candle manufacture.
I'm still trying to find a list of investors and shareholders in Price's Candles and a list of Victorian Solicitors, Attorneys & Barristers.
but I'm beginning to see the light regarding the guests at the Adelphi
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Have you been you burning the candle at both ends, researching until the early hours?
Has anyone mentioned "The London Gazette" for business news?
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There was oil in my lamp so I kept it burning, until the wee small hours. I think most folks will know something about Port Sunlight but will they know that Price's Candles built a model village for their workers in the new Wirral factory before Lever got around to it.
http://allertonoak.net/GSM/03GSMPortSunlightPrices.html
Bromborough Pool predated Port Sunlight.
All the Adelphi guests could have been present for the factory opening and to plan and agree to add the model village.
I'm still chasing up all the characters ... I'm sure there is a story in there worth telling. Even the history of Wilsontown is fascinating, especially as I called into Forth & Wilsontown regularly 40 to 50 years ago on business.
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W.F.Wakeman married in 25.3.1851 to Frances Mary Jordan, st mary's st denys and st george. Perhaps they were on their honeymoon
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Hello, I've not had enough time to track down all the guests of the Adelphi so I have no information on W.F.Wakeman. Can you tell me anything else about him, occupation etc!? Why would they have chosen Liverpool as a Honeymoon destination?
There are just far too many Co-incidences surrounding the Wilsons with their connections to Wilsontown, Price's Candles, the William Wilson ship, the new factory on the Wirral and the new Model Village nearby as well as the large number of Solictors / Attorneys in the family especially throughout Lancashire not forgetting of course all those Merchants from around the world with connections to Candle-making substances, later Soaps & Oils.
Some of the Wilsons adopted the Extra surname of Ffrance from the wealthy benefactor of that name who had no children of his own to pass his legacy onto.
I'm pursuing them to the nth degree because if my suspicions prove correct then my matrilineal name is NOT Cathcart, but WILSON.
Anything you know about your Mr.Wakeman will help rule him in or out, either way I would be grateful. cheers, Ian
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Ive just tracked them down using familysearch.org and he is a Commercial Traveller in Drapery.
He could be there to sell factory staff uniforms to Price's Candles. Just guessing. But that makes him a Merchant, like the others.