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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ABC1876 on Tuesday 15 September 20 17:25 BST (UK)

Title: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Tuesday 15 September 20 17:25 BST (UK)
I'm looking up a marriage on BMD which I know would have been between 1901 and 1911.  I've believe I've found the man in 1906 but the woman appears in 1902.   On the face of it, one of these must be incorrect however the volume and page numbers are the SAME.   Do other members have similar experiences?  I can't see how this many years could be covered on the same page, but I'm quite new to this hobby !

Many thanks.
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: BumbleB on Tuesday 15 September 20 17:47 BST (UK)
Could you give us the names, so that we can look for ourselves?

Yes, on the face of it, it does appear incorrect, BUT!!
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Tuesday 15 September 20 18:09 BST (UK)
Many thanks.   Yes.

JOHN HOWARD marrying EMILY HOWARD.  (She was previously married to Nathan Howard b 1874) and previous to that, she was Emily Lynch, her maiden name was Lilley the daughter of Robert Lilley.

She was from Yaxley Nr Cambridge originally but moved to Manchester and John was from Manchester.

The number is 8d 476.

Thanks very much. 
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: BumbleB on Tuesday 15 September 20 18:18 BST (UK)
March quarter 1902 - Prestwich RD - 8d - page 476 - Emily Howard married either James Henry Lowe or Alfred McGowen = FreeBMD.



Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: medpat on Tuesday 15 September 20 18:22 BST (UK)
My 3rd gt grandfather married in Walsall but my 3rd gt grandmother married in Burton on Trent according to transcription, even though when found her she had the Walsall code. Luckily her mother went to live with her so I had her maiden name from that.
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Tuesday 15 September 20 18:35 BST (UK)
Thank you very much for the really quick responses.   From a marriage certificate we know that as EMILY LYNCH she married NATHAN HOWARD in Dec 18th 1897.  We then have her on the 1911 Census with JOHN HOWARD. These 2 were brothers.  From records, we see that JOHN HOWARD died in Canada 6 June 1917 after enlisting in Ottawa in January 1916.  On that record, it refers to him as "Brother of Nathan Howard and gives the address we already knew in Manchester.     Nathan died in 1958 in Hyde Cheshire aged 84.

So, I'm pretty sure that Emily and John were together during 1901 to 1911 and shortly after that it looks like he went to Ontario, signed up in 1916 and died in France  1917.

Perhaps I should start a new topic.   

Thanks so far though, it's really nice reading how so many people are willing to help. 
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 15 September 20 20:04 BST (UK)
Hi, couple of observations/ questions, the 1901 census shows Nathan with Emily, daughter Lily and step daughter Amy. By 1911 Emily is with partner John, children Lily, Emily, Robert, Elizabeth, Ada and step daughter Amy. Have you any of the children's birth certs to show when John started becoming the father, presume Lily was Nathan's, how about Emily

John
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 15 September 20 20:22 BST (UK)
Hi, answered my own question to some extent. Nathan & Emily are the parents of Lily, Emily, Robert Lilley & Elizabeth according to baptisms. Ada is the daughter of John & Emily. So we have a parting of Nathan c1906-1910. Wondering if John was previously married and not free to marry Emily!

John
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: BumbleB on Tuesday 15 September 20 20:42 BST (UK)
You mention a 1906 marriage with the same volume and page number -

Manchester RD - June quarter 1906 - 8d page 476

Marriages Jun qtr 1906
DEVONSHIRE George William   Manchester    8d   476   
Howard John Manchester 8d   476   
McCABE Sarah Ellen Manchester 8d   476    
SMITH Annie Manchester 8d   476   
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Tuesday 15 September 20 20:58 BST (UK)
Hi, thankyou,  Yes, but in  MAR 1902...there's EMILY HOWARD  8d 476.   And this is who I think he married so I couldnt understand why they would have the same number but the dates were 4 years different... I'm going to close this thread and open one under a different heading now that this isn't just a general question any more.    I'll do that now but I'm not sure whether I can transfer some of these threads into a New Topic, but I'll try.
In the meantime, thank you so much for your postings - this is such a helpful site.
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 15 September 20 21:00 BST (UK)
Did Nathan and Emily get back together again as they appear together on the 1939 register. Do you know when Emily died?

John
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Tuesday 15 September 20 21:29 BST (UK)
Sorry I'm still trying to get to grips with the site - I couldnt post a new Topic on the same day I posted this one, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to do that.  Anyway.....

Yes, I think Emily did get back with Nathan.  I'm imagining this scenario......but just a guess, ignoring the children for the time being......

Emily Lilley marries someone called Lynch.
Emily Lynch then marries Nathan Howard  in Dec 1897
Emily Howard then appears to leave Nathan and move in with John Howard (Nathan's brother)
John Howard goes to Canada sometime after 1911 and dies in 1917
Emily Howard then at some stage, goes back to Nathan (maybe they didn't divorce, and she could just move back and retain her Howard surname !

NATHAN the father of baby Emily, born in 1901,  married Harry Winterbottom in 1922, and she died in 1986.

Gee whizz...I feel exhausted !!

So,  the 1939 record you mention, is that an Electoral Roll.  I can find on Ancestry ? 
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 15 September 20 21:31 BST (UK)
A volume no simply indicates the geographical area of the event.
Volume 8d refers to the collection of Registration Districts around Manchester.

Page numbers are reset for each year/quarter.

The full reference for a GRO entry is therefore:
Year
Quarter
Volume No
Page No

Volume/Page 8d/476 is likely to appear in each year and quarter ;D
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Tuesday 15 September 20 21:36 BST (UK)
Wow thank you very much, that helps me enormously.  I just couldn't work it out.    Brilliant, I'll sleep better tonight!

Many thanks.
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Tuesday 15 September 20 21:53 BST (UK)
EMILY HOWARD died in 1941 aged 72.      NATHAN HOWARD died in 1958 aged 84.   
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 15 September 20 21:57 BST (UK)
Hi, Electoral registers from 1922-1931 record Nathan & Emily together. They then appear together in 1939 register(on Ancestry). It's only a theory but I do not think Nathan and Emily ever parted. Nathans age on 1901 census is 27. Where is Nathan in 1911. The John recorded in 1901 aged 18 and would only be 27/28 as he was born in c1883 . Why would he go to Canada to sign up ?

John
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 15 September 20 22:40 BST (UK)
Emily Lilley marries someone called Lynch.

For info. From Lancashire BMD

LILLEY   Emily   
LYNCH   Harry   
1888   Manchester, St. Jude

1891 c Coral Street, Chorlton upon Medlock, Chorlton, Lancashire
Mary Ann Lynch   Head   Widow - b Manchester, Lancashire
Arnold Lynch Son   Single    Railway Porter Goods b   Manchester, Lancashire
Charles A Lynch Son   Single    Labourer For Finisher b Manchester, Lancashire
Emily Lynch   Daughter In Law Widow living On Own Means b Yaxley, Huntingdonshire
Amy Lynch   Granddaughter -   b Manchester
Harry   Lynch   Grandson -   b Manchester
both Lynch gd/children mmn Lilley

1881 census Mary Ann Lynch married to Thomas also has a son named
Harry Lynch bn 1867   Office Boy   Manchester, Lancashire

Edit to add

details from m/c
Married 21st April 1888
Emily Lilley  20 father Robert, carter
Harry Lynch 21 corner fitter father Thomas, engineer
Witnessed by Arnold Lynch & Maria Jackson



Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 16 September 20 07:05 BST (UK)
Nathan married Emliy Lynch in 1897. By 1911 it is recorded they have been married 14 years. For some reason in 1911 and with Ada's baptism it appears Nathan is recorded as John

John
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Wednesday 16 September 20 11:13 BST (UK)
Emily Lilley marries someone called Lynch.

Thank you so much for all this information about EMILY LYNCH  (nee LILLEY) family - at the moment, I'm trying to get to the bottom of all the discrepancies on the NATHAN HOWARD/JOHN HOWARD saga and my mind is exploding with that alone  :)

I'm going to reply next to Johnhood to thank him also - I dont want to appear rude not coming back substantively yet but I'm getting so caught up in this quest that I need to take stock of what I know so far.   I've turned into Miss Marple within the space of a week.

Also, I'm trying to see how I can start a new Topic on this HOWARD family whilst incorporating all the information I've gathered from this great website on my "General Question" topic.

Instead of sitting in the garden - I'm closing blinds and sitting at the laptop !!   I will never again be able to suggest my granddaughter gets off her phone !!!!
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Wednesday 16 September 20 12:02 BST (UK)
Nathan married Emliy Lynch in 1897. By 1911 it is recorded they have been married 14 years. For some reason in 1911 and with Ada's baptism it appears Nathan is recorded as John

John

Thank you so much for all your help.   I see you are to bed very late and up very early - this doesnt bode well for me trying to keep my ancestry searching in check  !!

So complicated isn't it but I have a bit more info.

We know that JOHN died in 1917.  I'm not sure his date of birth was definitely 29th January 1883 because I've seen it as 29 January 1874.   I've got his Army record from the Canadian Expeditionary Force - his number was 220371.  He was in the 5th Manchester Regiment for 4 years (not sure yet of the dates).  Theres 40 odd pages of his Attestation Papers - ending with him dying of his wounds on 6 June 1917.  His next of kin is shown as NATHAN  HOWARD Lowe Street Denton - which is correct.   It shows he enlisted in January 1915 , Ottawa, Ontario.   Maybe he didnt have to travel to Ontario, maybe that means his Manchester Regiment sort of "allocated" him to be in the Canadian Infantry - Central Ontario Regiment.

My interest is really in NATHAN.   But it's odd that in December 1922 on Emily Howard's marriage to Harry Winterbottom her father's name is down as JOHN HOWARD Rubber Worker  (but he died in 1917) BUT on the 1911 Census, that John Howard IS a rubber worker.   

I'm going to see if I can find a birth certificate for John to sort his dob out once and for all.   

Oh and also, I'm not sure what you mean about  the John on the 1901 census and those ages you refer to.  I can't see a John on the 1901 Census ...am I misunderstanding?   

In the meantime,
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Wednesday 16 September 20 16:11 BST (UK)
AAh I think I see what you mean,   On the 1911 Census its as if the name JOHN HOWARD should have been NATHAN HOWARD.  Which would follow, because on the 1901 Census Nathan is 27 and on the 1911 one he is 37.

I had calculated John's date of birth based on that 1911 Census - which of course is this scenario,  was actually NATHAN's dob - 1874 which I already knew was 1874.     Because I had calculated what I thought was John's, I had come to the incorrect conclusion that they might be twins.    Just shows. 

Ha Ha I bet you're sorry you got into these postings !

I still can't think what's behind that name discrepancy and also why "John" 1911 is a rubber worker and "John" is down as  a rubber worker on the 1922 Marriage Certificate of Emily Howard marrying Harry Winterbottom - when John died in 1917.   The plot thickens.

Incidentally I still can't open a New Topic, it won't let me do that yet.
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: Ladyhawk on Wednesday 16 September 20 16:55 BST (UK)

We know that JOHN died in 1917. 

I'm not sure his date of birth was definitely
29th January 1883 because I've seen it as
29 January 1874

I've got his Army record from the Canadian Expeditionary Force - his number was 220371. 
He was in the 5th Manchester Regiment for 4 years (not sure yet of the dates). 
Theres 40 odd pages of his Attestation Papers - ending with him dying of his wounds on 6 June 1917. 

His next of kin is shown as NATHAN  HOWARD Lowe Street Denton - which is correct.   

My interest is really in NATHAN.   

I'm going to see if I can find a birth certificate for John to sort his dob out once and for all.   


Have you found John's birth entry on GRO indexes confirming his mmn?

Were Nathan's parents John HOWARD & Elizabeth MEADS?

Nathan HOWARD mmn MEEDS
1874  J Quarter in MANCHESTER  Volume 08D  Page 166   

1881c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27P-J18Z
Nathan HOWARD bn 1875 Manchester with parents John & Elizabeth and
siblings Sarah (added- GRO mmn MEEDS), George (GRO mmn MEADS) & Henry (GRO mmn MEADS)

possible marriage
Howard John
Meads Elizabeth
Married 25 Dec 1869 Manchester

John Thomas HOWARD mmn MEADS
1871  M Quarter in MANCHESTER  Volume 08D  Page 164   

John Thomas HOWARD died age 1
1872  D Quarter in MANCHESTER  Volume 08D  Page 97   



Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Wednesday 16 September 20 17:13 BST (UK)
Thankyou, yes.    Those are the parents of Nathan Howard and John Howard.    I'm going to be busy tonight (again)!


Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 16 September 20 20:15 BST (UK)
Hi, been a busy day painting my son's shed. Really struggling to find the family in 1891. Think this ref are john's jnr's elder brother's George and Henry RG12 2796 138 3  & Nathan RG12 3161 110 41.

This begs the question--what has happened to parents, John Snr died?, Elizabeth died, both?

I cannot find a birth for John Jnr c 1883 with mmn Meads/Meeds. In fact there is only one John Howard born +/- 2 years 1883 in Manchester and he is John William Howard mq with mmn Jones.

John
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Wednesday 16 September 20 20:48 BST (UK)
Hi, been a busy day painting my son's shed. Really struggling to find the family in 1891. Think this ref are john's jnr's elder brother's George and Henry RG12 2796 138 3  & Nathan RG12 3161 110 41.

This begs the question--what has happened to parents, John Snr died?, Elizabeth died, both?


Thankyou,  Hi there.....Good shed painting weather.

I've got the 1881 Census and this shows  JOHN HOWARD Snr (b) 1850 ish and ELIZABETH his wife and NATHAN aged 6.    It wouldnt show JOHN Jnr because he didnt come along until 1883. 

On the 1891 census I wondered if I'd found NATHAN aged 17 as a Page Boy  living with what looks to be a Church group headed by Frederic Kranso in Didsbury but this could be a complete red herring?

Then 1901 NATHAN is 27 married to Emily.

I hadn't really clocked that there were more siblings because I've been so caught up with John Jnr and Nathan. At least Nathan is a more unusual name to be searching against ! 

I've aged ten years in a week !!  :)





Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: ABC1876 on Wednesday 16 September 20 21:10 BST (UK)
Thanks so much for all your help.  I'm going to take time off to digest all the information you've assisted with, take stock of where I'm up to and decide which lines of enquiry are the important ones  for me and which ones could take me of my original quest given half a chance.  You've been really helpful.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 18 September 20 12:59 BST (UK)

We know that JOHN died in 1917. 

I've got his Army record from the Canadian Expeditionary Force - his number was 220371. 

He was in the 5th Manchester Regiment for 4 years (not sure yet of the dates). 

Theres 40 odd pages of his Attestation Papers - ending with him dying of his wounds on 6 June 1917. 

His next of kin is shown as NATHAN  HOWARD Lowe Street Denton - which is correct. 

Just in case you haven't come across these details yet.....from F M P don't know if they are available on Anc*y

John HOWARD born Bradford Manchester, Labourer
Service number   8498 Regiment   Manchester Regiment
Attestation date   18 Mar 1902
Attestation age    19 years 2 months
Attestation corps   5th Manchester Regt
Series   Wo 96 - Militia Service Records 1806-1915

Grey Eyes, Brown Hair, 5ft 4ins, Scar left forearm

Details of service
??? 49 days
??  1903
Present 1904
Leave Co. 1905
Absent 1906

Added a snippet from the record as not sure of some of the words re: the addresses of his sister/brother and service

and John's burial details from CWGC

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/470083/J%20HOWARD/



Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: johnhood on Friday 18 September 20 13:59 BST (UK)
Ladyhawk, well found, 1891 census

Piece:   3677
Folio:   149
Page Number:   43
Household Schedule Number:   316
Household Members:   
Name   Age
George Howard   24
Eliza A Howard   24
Harry Howard   20
John Howard   18

address 7 Sandown St , as per enlistment papers

The sister mentioned is Sarah Howard born 1873. Believe she married John Wright 18.5.1894--father John Howard (not shown as deceased). One witness is a N Howard (Nathan!) 1901 census ref below.

Piece:   3750
Folio:   117
Page Number:   31
Household Schedule Number:   175
Household Members:   
Name   Age
John Wright   28
Sarah Wright   27
Mary Ann Wright   3
Emma M Wright   1
John Wright   6/1

John
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: johnhood on Friday 18 September 20 14:43 BST (UK)
Ladyhawk, as per your link to CWGC, Nathan & Emily living at " 2 Lowe St, Denton on 1922 electoral register.

John
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: johnhood on Friday 18 September 20 14:55 BST (UK)
For info only, when George Howard married Eliza Ann Scholfied in 1898 the witnesses were John & Sarah Wright. Eliza's address at the time JUNO ST, as per enlistment.

John
Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 18 September 20 15:33 BST (UK)
1891 census

Piece:   3677
Folio:   149
Page Number:   43
Household Schedule Number:   316
Household Members:   
Name   Age
George Howard   24
Eliza A Howard   24
Harry Howard   20
John Howard   18

address 7 Sandown St , as per enlistment papers


Hi John - Well found  :)

Just to say the census you mention above for the Howard’s is 1901 - it took me a while to find it   ;) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X924-JQR

I think this is George & Eliza on 1911c
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW12-LC9

For info only, when George Howard married Eliza Ann Scholfied in 1898 the witnesses were John & Sarah Wright. Eliza's address at the time JUNO ST, as per enlistment.

You can view the 1898 marriage here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLBG-1CYN


The sister mentioned is Sarah Howard born 1873.

Believe she married John Wright 18.5.1894--father John Howard (not shown as deceased). One witness is a N Howard (Nathan!) 1901 census ref below.

Piece:   3750
Folio:   117
Page Number:   31
Household Schedule Number:   175

John Wright   28
Sarah Wright   27
Mary Ann Wright 3
Emma M Wright   1
John Wright   6/1


For info., John, Sarah & children in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1W-LC4

Title: Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 18 September 20 16:28 BST (UK)
A photograph of John Howard's Headstone at Barlin Cemetery has been added to findagrave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56514209/john-howard