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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 04:04 BST (UK)

Title: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 04:04 BST (UK)
Hi, I have found an 1881 marriage for my great grandmother's sister in Dublin. It is the last marriage on the page -- James Doyle to Bridget Brennan. The first document is the original as I downloaded it from the NLI microfilm. The second document is after I tried to clean it up. Can anyone help me with exactly what it says, both in the headings for the different columns and then what is written in the columns? Even if someone knows what the standard column headings usually are, that would be a help.

Thanks
Geoff Turner
Australia 

copyright images removed
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 06:13 BST (UK)
OK, I have found a clearer copy but if I have made any mistakes I would appreciate you letting me know.
It seems that the groom is living in the house where he was born (8 Frederick Lane). But his parents are both dead and he has taken over the house.
I can't find the street in Primrose Hill where Bridget lives, but there has been a freeway put through there in the meantime so that is not surprising.
Both sets of parents are dead so there are no addresses for them.  
The next two columns relate to whether there are impediments to the marriage but they are both free to marry and are not close relatives or anything.   
Then the name of the priest.
Then the names and addresses of the witnesses/sponsors.
The final column seems to note "Sponsors married before". Not sure why that would be relevant.
Any other comments welcome.
Geoff
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 06:36 BST (UK)
Which parish is it?
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 06:48 BST (UK)
St Michael's, Kingstown, Dublin,  Ireland
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 06:50 BST (UK)
Found the civil cert,Rathdown district St.Michaels church.
James address is given as Upper Dorset St.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11010/8025909.pdf
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 06:53 BST (UK)
St Michael's, Kingstown, Dublin,  Ireland

A link gives a much clearer image
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633813#page/105/mode/1up
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 07:04 BST (UK)
Think you have it all okay, the different address for James is interesting, wonder if the church one is where he lived with his parents and the civil one is where he was staying in the city at the time of the marriage.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: bbart on Thursday 17 September 20 07:13 BST (UK)
the different address for James is interesting,

While trying to find a site that had Irish marriage column headings, I came across one site that said it was common for the bride and groom to be listed at the same address to avoid paying banns fees in two parishes.  I don't know if it applies here, but just throwing it out there as a possibility!
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 07:17 BST (UK)
So presumably he gave the wrong address at the church (the address where he was born and grew up, not the address he was presently living). Bridget was born at Rochfortbridge (Mullingar) and was presumably living in at Primrose Hill, with the family she was a servant for. James' parents were dead, so he was not living with them.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 07:23 BST (UK)
Were there a lot of mansions on Primrose Hill? I know there is one that is still a tourist attraction to this day. There is a reference on a tree somewhere to Bridget being a Lady in Waiting to Lady St Clair, England. I thought that was more likely to be an English woman living in Ireland than a woman in England. But if that was the case you'd think she would give a better occupation that "servant".
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 07:28 BST (UK)
Have you tried using GeoHive
https://bit.ly/2FBO32q
Fingers crossed

Primrose Hill appears to be one house on Tivoli Road
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 07:41 BST (UK)
Do you think it would be this place?
https://www.visitdublin.com/see-do/details/primrose-hill
It seems to be in Primrose Lane now, not Tivoli Road, but Bridget seems to have written Tivoli Road on her address.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 07:58 BST (UK)
No it seems to be in Lucan, which is nowhere near the other place at Tivoli Rd, Kingstown. Must have been two Primrose Hills in Dublin.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 08:20 BST (UK)
In the newspapers a Mr Adam Findlater is given his address as Primrose Hill, 1890s early 1900s
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Kingstown/Tivoli_Road/1319542/

I'll try to look at earlier dates
No luck with the newspaper and Adam's daughter Wanda wasn't born at that address so seems that family weren't there in 1881.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 08:31 BST (UK)
That's interesting. But yes, the earlier the better. Bridget married in 1881 and may have ceased work immediately, I guess. She had a daughter Annie at 23 Bolton St, North Dublin, on 3 May 1883. I'm not sure when they emigrated but Annie married in New York on 20 Jan 1900. I don't have a baptism for Annie, I don't know which church they would have been going to by then. North Dublin seems a fair way from Kingstown. 
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 08:49 BST (UK)
Can't find a Primrose Hill address for St.Clair family in the newspapers but they are coming back and forth to Kingstown from London etc.

Have another look later
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 08:53 BST (UK)
Thanks, that's amazing. Seems that the St Clair story might be true after all!
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: bbart on Thursday 17 September 20 09:01 BST (UK)
If Ann married a Sloan, they emigrated when she was age 6 according to the death register. Parents and age match, but might not be who you are looking for.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 09:05 BST (UK)
Yes she married James Floyd Sloan and died on 5 Sep 1936, as far as I know.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 09:27 BST (UK)
Thanks, that's amazing. Seems that the St Clair story might be true after all!

Kingstown was a port so doesn't necessarily mean they had a house there.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 09:41 BST (UK)
Oh, OK, thanks.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 09:52 BST (UK)
Latefinder was at Primrose Hill by 1893, so far found the only earlier mention of the house in the newspapers is 1823 when it was up for sale.
The couple of St.Clair Certs in Rathdown Reg district don't mention Primrose Hill, so if they did live there it looks like they may only have rented it for a while.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 21:34 BST (UK)
In the last column of the parish register for Bridget Brennan's 1881 marriage at St Michael's, Kingstown, it seems to say "Sponsors married before". Can anyone explain why the marital status of the sponsors (I assume we would call them witnesses) would be important?
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Bookbox on Thursday 17 September 20 22:49 BST (UK)
It's far too small to read, but it's more likely to say 'Spouses married before'.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 23:01 BST (UK)
In the civil registration, James and Bridget are described as bachelor and spinster. Would they be described like that if they were widower and widow (i.e. married before)?
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 23:09 BST (UK)
If you look at other comments further up the page (link on reply #5) there is a couple John Dalton Elizabeth Kelly with the comment both married before and their civil cert gives them as Widower and widow but in this case the comment refers to the witnesses. There are comments about other witnesses on the page as well.

I've never noticed this in other parishes.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 17 September 20 23:19 BST (UK)
So, just to be clear, you are happy that it's the first marriage for James and the first marriage for Bridget, and that the witnesses are the ones married before?
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 23:28 BST (UK)
So, just to be clear, you are happy that it's the first marriage for James and the first marriage for Bridget, and that the witnesses are the ones married before?
Yes, given the way married before differs on the Dalton Kelly marriage and the other comments about witnesses I think it is clear he is referring to the witnesses not the couple. Why it matters I don't know, you would need to know more about church law I guess.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 23:36 BST (UK)
Just having a look at another parish, Dalkey, and see several where the fact a witness was a widow or widow is written
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 17 September 20 23:59 BST (UK)
I haven't a clue about Latin but looking at the headings Testes is witnesses, so why would sponsor be written in the comments
Is it spouse?!
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Friday 18 September 20 00:11 BST (UK)
Trying to translate the heading using Google.
Observations if one of the spouses has been converted to the fait or priviously joined in matrimony etc
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 18 September 20 00:13 BST (UK)
It is certainly logical that the church would be more concerned about the marital status of the bride and groom than of the witnesses. And James was in his mid 20s and Bridget was in her 30s, so old enough for previous marriages. But why are they described as bachelor and spinster on the civil registration?
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Friday 18 September 20 00:17 BST (UK)
That word refers to the bride or groom see the second one on this page https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633813#page/108/mode/1up
He doesn't remember his mother's name, groom mother is not listed.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Friday 18 September 20 00:31 BST (UK)
These priests just aren't consistant
Look at these marriages and compare them to the parish register
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11010/8025908.pdf
The church register looks like just William Fleury is a widow but get to the civil cert and both of then are.
Than have a look at James Curry
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Friday 18 September 20 00:36 BST (UK)
So I guess the question is: which is more reliable the church record (both married before) or the civil record (neither married before)?
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Friday 18 September 20 14:39 BST (UK)
Need to look over it all again but at the moment I think if either was married before it was James because a widow should be recorded by her first husband's surname, if not in the church record at least on the Civil Record.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Friday 18 September 20 15:12 BST (UK)
Possibility only
A James Doyle minor married Julia Ann Doyle minor in 1875, he was a Porter and his parents were John and Catherine.
Church record https://www.rootschat.com/links/01pw1/
Civil Record https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11220/8112954.pdf (note his father was also a porter not a labourer)
Julia Ann died 1880
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1880/06460/4857358.pdf

Have you got James and Bridget in any census?
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 19 September 20 00:10 BST (UK)
Thanks, I'll investigate that possible earlier marriage for James.

We have a possible 1862 marriage for Bridget at Mullingar (near where she was born at Rochfortbridge in 1842) to James Daly. But we couldn't find a death for James Daly there. And as you say, why was she called Bridget Brennan not Bridget Daly on both versions of her 1881 marriage and also the 3 May 1883 baptism of her daughter Anne at St Mary's (Pro-Cathedral), Dublin city. We only have the parochial register for the Daly-Brennan marriage, I will have to try to find the civil register to see if that tells us any more.

I'm not sure I know where to find census records for James or Bridget.

With your help we have made a lot of progress!

Geoff

Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Saturday 19 September 20 00:25 BST (UK)
They have a second daughter born Dec 1884 Bridget (Christina)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02659/1980328.pdf
Christina is on the baptisim
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 19 September 20 00:32 BST (UK)
As far as I know only Anne Josephine was with them when they emigrated about 1889, so this Bridget Christina must have died as a child.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Saturday 19 September 20 01:16 BST (UK)
Yes she died 1886
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06241/4786959.pdf
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 19 September 20 01:42 BST (UK)
I have some things to follow up from all this (after I have breakfast) but if James was married before, "bachelor" means nothing. So perhaps "spinster" means nothing for Bridget. And the records are dealing with her maiden name and ignoring previous married names.

James and Julia Ann allegedly had three children -- Mary (1877) Katharine Frances (18781965) and James (18791880). Katherine was married in NY in 1895 so presumably emigrated with James, Bridget and Annie in 1889.

Thanks again for all your help.

Geoff
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 19 September 20 04:30 BST (UK)
Of course the 1862 marriage at Mullingar is just before the 1864 start date for civil registration of RC marriages, so no luck there.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 19 September 20 07:14 BST (UK)
I have found James Doyle on the "Furnessia" arriving New York on 5 Sep 1887. He is 31 -- about right -- and a porter. He seems to be by himself in Steerage III. It would make sense that he went ahead to establish things for the family. Then I found a Bridget Doyle on the "Britannic (1)" arriving 1 Jun 1888, age unknown, but she is a servant and in the aft steerage. But there is no sign of Annie, their surviving child. Nor is there any evidence of Katharine, the child of James Doyles' first marriage. When Annie died it was said she arrived in the US when she was 6, so 1889, and she married there in 1900. And there is a Katharine Doyle marrying in Manhattan in 1895 who others say is James' daughter. So if that is all correct, the girls must have got to the US by some other means.

I tried to follow up the Census idea but it seems there are only fragments before 1901, and of course James and Bridget and the family had migrated by then.

But thanks for all your help. We have got a lot further than we hoped!

Geoff.
 
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Saturday 19 September 20 23:38 BST (UK)
We have found the following summary in the Mullingar civil records, which might be the death Bridget's first husband: Name: James Daley Event Type: Death Event Date: 1868 Event Place: Mullingar, Ireland Registration Quarter and Year: 1868 Registration District: Mullingar Age: 29 Birth Year (Estimated): 1839 Volume Number: 8 Returns Page No 227. I don't know if it possible to access the actual record.

That would make him about three years older than Bridget and his death comes about six years after their marriage, also at Mullingar (for which only the parish record exists).

We haven't found his birth at Mullingar, which seemed the likely place to start looking.

If Bridget married James Daley in 1862 and was widowed in 1868, that would explain the comment about both spouses being married before in the parish record in 1881. It conflicts with "spinster" but we know James Doyle was not a "bachelor" either. I think in Australia she would have been Bridget Daley for her second marriage, but perhaps in Ireland in 1881 the practice was for widows to be married under their maiden name.

Geoff

Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Saturday 19 September 20 23:55 BST (UK)
Possibly but I'm not convinced that word is plural, it looks the same as the man who can't remember his mother's name and that marriage was by the same priest.

That death cert won't be online yet but will be eventually, hopefully at the next update.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: bbart on Sunday 20 September 20 03:28 BST (UK)
It does not say both were married before. It says sponsus married before.
Sponsus = groom
Sponsa = bride
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Sunday 20 September 20 03:38 BST (UK)
That would certainly explain why she was still using her maiden name. And why she is "spinster" on the civil registration (although why the groom is described as "bachelor" remains a mystery). Thanks.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: bbart on Sunday 20 September 20 03:52 BST (UK)
Perhaps he didn't want the to go through the hassle and expense to prove to the Church that he was eligible to marry again.  Or maybe it was just "clerical error".
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Sunday 20 September 20 04:05 BST (UK)
I favour the clerical error theory. The church knew about his previous marriage ("sponsus married before"), it is the civil registration that says bachelor where I might have expected widower. But I think we are splitting hairs now. Thanks.

Geoff
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 20 September 20 07:49 BST (UK)
It does not say both were married before. It says sponsus married before.
Sponsus = groom
Sponsa = bride

That's what I was trying to figure out but without knowing Latin and struggling with the writing I was getting tied up in knots.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Help deciphering parish marriage register
Post by: GeoffTurner on Sunday 20 September 20 07:53 BST (UK)
It's a learning experience for us all!