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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: erin31 on Saturday 19 September 20 13:44 BST (UK)
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Quite a sensitive topic but I am hoping someone can help me.
My great Aunt died from cardic failure and sepsis in childbirth at the Princess Mary Maternity Hospital in Newcastle in 1935 and she was then buried at Blaydon Cemetery. I have a death certificate to confirm this.
Thus far I have not been able to find any record of a birth, death or stillbirth for this child and I have relied on the memory of one uncle who has told me that the child was born and buried at the hospital.
I know that hospitals had mass graves for stillborn babies but am not sure why the child would not be buried with the mother if she was also deceased?
There are three possibilities I can think of re the child...
1. The mother was in the early stages of labour when the she passed away and the child was not actually born.
2. The child was extremely premature and the body was incinerated.
3. The child was born and buried but not with the mother for some reason I have yet to find.
Does anyone know if the Princess Maternity Hospital had a burial ground and where I could find records of burials there or if there is anyway I can find records of stillbirths at the hospital?
I know this will seem irrelevant to a lot of people as it was so long ago but if this child was born I would like to know whether it was male or female and put him or her in their rightful place on my family tree.
:)
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The Stillborn Register, is not available to the public, only the parents, or if they are deceased then the siblings can apply.
It's possible that the mother died a few days after the birth, if so, the infant would have been disposed of by the hospital. Things were very different then.
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http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/DServe2/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Overview.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqSearch=(RefNo=%27HO.PM%27)&dsqPos=1&dsqNum=50&PF=No
Tyne and Wear Archives have patients records - as you have the death certificate it might be worth you contacting them to see if they can supply more information. The archives is still closed to the public but I think staff will still do paid research.
I should add that as the date is less than one hundred years ago it will only be the staff who can find out more for you. This is because you might come across a record for someone still living if you looked yourself which would not be permitted under data protection. (i think archives staff could do this as you can prove this relative is deceased)
I don't know if this might be relevant or but I wonder if the baby might have been placed in a nearby cemetery. I think I recall that there is an area in Old Jesmond Cemetery (not too far away) marked with a plaque as having a stillbirth area. It might be that the baby might appear in the records for here perhaps. Possibly might be worth looking into, perhaps, although no guarantees.
http://www.margaret-hall-genealogy.com/page6.htm
Added: on this local website link above if you check Tyne and Wear Archives User Guides then Cemeteries then Jesmond General Cemetery (jesmond Old) see page 2 - you will see that there is a register for still births available.
Also if you look under the subheading of 'Medicine' on the User Guides (under 'Trades, Crafts & Professions' this will take you to various hospital records and what is available for Princess Mary. (See page 5 'Patients records 1903 - 1985'
I might add that I don't think this is irrelevant - I agree with you about having these babies in their rightful place on our family trees.
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Thank you Jebber.
Thank you River Tyne Lass. I have found the still births for the Princess Mary Maternity Hospital at Old Jesmond Cemetery as you suggested and have searched the Still Births burial register but sadly there is no record of the baby I am looking for.
I will contact the archives on Monday re the hospital records for my great Aunt.
Thank you so very much :)
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I assume you have already looked at the stillborn burials register for Blaydon on Family Search?
If not then 1935 stillborn burials starts at the bottom of this page:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3VC-Z7KF?i=143&cat=825173
Though the parents are named, no sex is given for the baby which, as you will have guessed from the Jesmond register, seems to be the way these were recorded.
Boo
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There were burials of stillborns at Blaydon
Possibly 11 in 1935, including one on previous page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VC-Z46T
See previous post by Boo
The mother of one of them seems to have died at Princess Mary Maternity and was buried at Blaydon, 12 June
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS6T-N9L3-4
They are buried together in F 117
not sure why the child would not be buried with the mother if she was also deceased?
It seems a bit strange that you can't find anything similar, there must be a reason
Good luck in your search.
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Sorry Boo, you beat me to it.
I did have a look to see if any of those mums might have died (found one)
John
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They are buried together in F 117
That is in the non-conformist section
The graves register does not mention the stillborn child in F 117
The other burial noted is Thomas Westwood in 1942, possibly Elizabeth's father? Likely a relation anyway.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS6T-N9KH-D
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Thank you Boo. I had checked the Blaydon still births register a few years ago and the baby is not there and this was when I asked my uncle about the child and he told me he or she was buried at the hospital.
Thank you Jon.
I should of said that the surname I am looking for is Dunbar.
I did wonder if my great aunt died days after the child and thus the child may of already been buried at the hospital when she passed but my uncle and mother both felt quite sure that she died 'during child birth'.
They were both very young when my great aunt died so they are going by what they themselves were told so it is possible there was a little more to my great Aunts death and she did die a few days after the child. I can't really think of any other reason.
I have another ancestor who died shortly after child birth and although she is not in the same grave as her child they are both in Blaydon Cemetery. The mother in one section and her baby in the still birth section.
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Maybe one further possibility - that the baby was buried with the mother but wasn't included in the records for some reason?
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Or could the baby have survived? Father may have felt or been persuaded that he could not look after an infant on his own so baby may have been adopted and registered under another name. Perhaps family only told the baby had been born and died?
What was the Mother's religion? If RC perhaps she had last rites and the baby an emergency baptism - in which case there might be Church records. I have come across a RC baptism before which also gave the info that the child had been adopted.
I think the patient records may get to the bottom of solving this. :)
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I did wonder this myself Liam but I can think of no reason why my mum and uncle would not know this or why the child was never mentioned.
I am not sure who would baptise a baby in hospital at that time... the family where R.C. but I have not found a baptism record in the St Joseph's baptism records.
The Holy Name Jesmond was the closet Catholic church but the baptism records only go up to 1929.
I think that the baby being adopted is a possibility I have not given enough thought too.
I have the obituary notice and memorial notices from two other years and there is no mention of a child in any of the notices which I could not understand but you have given me a possible reason River Tyne Lass.
I now hope I can access the patient records.
Thank you everyone for your replies. :)
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Just to say this is a very interesting thread and I think we will all wish you success and please keep us updated .. I know this is a sensitive thread so even just a brief 'I have found my answer' or 'I have received the help I was after at the archives' would be nice. It would be good to know you have got to a conclusion even if we don't know the details. Or even 'unfortunately, got nowhere with this one'. I think we are all rooting for you, I know I certainly am.
It is a good while back but I once looked up something for someone and it appeared that after this person's RC ancestor's wife died all their children were taken from the home. I would imagine back in those days, a husband left in this situation might have been persuaded by the Church or hospital that a child might have a better life in another 'whole' family. It then might have been easier (especially to younger members of the family) to give the impression that the baby had died. This is all just conjecture but might be a possibility. I hope you can access the patients records too via staff research - I think it might be possible. :)
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Don't be put off asking the GRO ;D
6 or 7 years ago, I asked about my mother's twin sister's record (from 1931).
I had to apply in writing.
Then they sent me an application form, which I filled in and sent back.
The certificate cost the same as a Birth Certificate and the response was relatively quick.
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Just to give an insight from another point of view. My grandfather had a sister who died when she was 10 years old. Years later I met up with the son of my grandfathers brother. I was showing him pictures of his father and my grandfather as children. He asked who the young girl was. I explained that she was his aunt and had died as a young girl. He was shocked his father had never mentioned her and at 60 years of age he learnt this truth.
Some families bury family information and don’t share with others so it gets lost along the way.
I hope you find out soon what happened to the baby.
Regards
Panda
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From my research many still-borns were not registered in the stillbirth register even up to the 1960s.
It is an utter disgrace!
Cheers
Guy
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My mother's baby brother was born in January 1935 and died 13 days later also in the Princess Mary Maternity Hospital. I have both his birth and death certificates and yet have never found where he is buried. My mother thought he might be in the local churchyard to where the family lived at the time but enquiries there came back negative. I was told that it was possible he had been buried at the foot of a stranger's grave if their burial happened around the same time. I was also informed that it was possible that no record had been made of this at the time.
justmej
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My mother's baby brother was born in January 1935 and died 13 days later also in the Princess Mary Maternity Hospital. I have both his birth and death certificates and yet have never found where he is buried. My mother thought he might be in the local churchyard to where the family lived at the time but enquiries there came back negative. I was told that it was possible he had been buried at the foot of a stranger's grave if their burial happened around the same time. I was also informed that it was possible that no record had been made of this at the time.
justmej
It is a legal requirement that every burial was recorded in the burial register since the Burial Act of 1880, however I have noted in my research over the years that some registers recorded in the grave register are not recorded in the burial register and some recorded in the burial register are not recorded in the grave register.
It is important to search both registers. (It is also best to view the registers oneself rather than depend on others to check.)
In a similar way it is important to check both Parish Registers and Bishop's Transcripts.
Cheers
Guy
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Justmej, you have probably done this already, but have you been able to search local cemetery records on microfilm at either the Newcastle City library or the archives? Have you been able to check birth and death announcements in the newspapers on microfilm?
I agree with what Guy has said. In my experience, - if you can - check things yourself, if you are told something is not there. Then if you don't find something, ideally, check again a little while later. We all are human and it is possible to miss something the first time on checking. It doesn't happen often but I will own up to having occasionally missed something on the first time of checking for something.
Just a story from my own family history .. My Dad's eldest sister was married twice and had no children .. or so we always thought. When I got caught up with this family history thing and started researching, I discovered that she had had one son, born late in her life at Preston hospital, North Shields. His name was Robert and he lived for 50 minutes. His Whitley Bay burial entry records the word 'foot' which I assume means he is buried at the foot of someone else's grave. His grave is unmarked. I can't recall this ever having been mentioned and no one in my family today knew about him. I think back in the day it must have been the done thing to never speak about such things again. I am glad we can be much more open about things these days and it no longer seems such a taboo subject.
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Thank you Guy and River Tyne Lass for your helpful information and suggestions. I haven't searched the local records myself at Newcastle. I will certainly look further into it. I did think it rather odd when I was told there was a possibility it had not been recorded. My mother, who was 8 at the time, has always been pretty sure he was buried in the local churchyard and has even pointed out an area there where she recalls visiting with her mother. As other family members have been buried in this churchyard since, including his mother, it would be nice to know if he too is there.
Regards
justmej
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Hi justjme
I was just wondering did you make your enquiries via the Church? Or did someone offer to look up the record for you. If the latter it might be possible they have inadvertently missed him in the records, perhaps. It could be worth you checking again whenever the archives reopens. Or possibly for a death notice at the Newcastle City library local studies when this reopens. If a death notice exists it may record where the burial was.
I think at 13 days old he will have been recorded in a burial record somewhere in Newcastle. Have you thought about which may have been the closest cemetery to the home address? I am wondering if he may have gone from the hospital to a cemetery.
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1366962/How-heartbroken-couples-secret-graves-long-lost-stillborn-children.html
Regarding stillbirths .. I have come across this very moving article which mentions GRO certificates for still births as KGarrad as already posted about. Towards the end of this article it is mentioned that stillbirths have been recorded since 1926 but that most people were unaware that this was officially documented.
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Hi justjme
I was just wondering did you make your enquiries via the Church? Or did someone offer to look up the record for you. If the latter it might be possible they have inadvertently missed him in the records, perhaps. It could be worth you checking again whenever the archives reopens. Or possibly for a death notice at the Newcastle City library local studies when this reopens. If a death notice exists it may record where the burial was.
I think at 13 days old he will have been recorded in a burial record somewhere in Newcastle. Have you thought about which may have been the closest cemetery to the home address? I am wondering if he may have gone from the hospital to a cemetery.
Hi River Tyne Lass
It's a few years ago that I contacted the village Church (which comes under Durham) and where the family lived at the time. Someone got back to me and said there was no record. As previously mentioned, I was told that it was possible it hadn't been recorded, especially if it had been a busy time.
Though his death was registered in Newcastle, my thoughts were, if he had been buried then it would have been somewhere nearest to the family home. My mother is fairly sure this particular Churchyard is the correct one. So I need to look further into it.
Thank you for your interest and help.
Regards
justmej
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One additional point I don't think has been mentioned is in the case of burials of stillborn babies and indeed new born babies it is possible they have not been named and are buried as stillborn or baby of mother's name or father's name, or even without mention of any name. It is possible that these entries may easily be overlooked when 3rd parties search for their burial.
Cheers
Guy