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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: BushInn1746 on Sunday 20 September 20 07:42 BST (UK)

Title: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Sunday 20 September 20 07:42 BST (UK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54221953
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Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 20 September 20 10:17 BST (UK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54221953
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What surprised me was the statement in that article

"Up until now, advice to self-isolate has been guidance only."

But as it doesn't come into force until 28th September, there's still a week for all those infected and potentially infected people to go on pub crawls and hold parties (with 5 others or fewer of course!) with impunity.
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: louisa maud on Sunday 20 September 20 10:20 BST (UK)
A friend of mine was checked on in Jersey, she had arrived and told 48 hours quarantine, she was asked to go shopping with her friend but luckily declined, a few hours later she was checked on by the local policeman, how lucky was she after being tempted to go shopping, so we all have to be aware if we are quarantined and do the right thing, or get fined

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 20 September 20 10:39 BST (UK)
The biggest problem is that politicians have continuously talked about guidelines and advice, not laws and regulations. This makes people think it is optional and they can choose to do what they want when they want. Many of the "guidelines" have not been enforceable in law up to now. Police have said all they can do is engage and explain and disperse large gatherings. What's to stop them all getting together again ten minutes later when the police have moved on.
As well as the pub crawler in Bolton, there was a case a few weeks ago of someone returning from Spain who held a party while he was supposedly quarantining. Didn't hear about him getting a fine.

And also from article Mark posted the link to

"More than 19,000 fines have been issued in England and Wales for alleged breaches of coronavirus laws, the attorney general said earlier this week, but more than half have not been paid so far."

Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 20 September 20 10:40 BST (UK)
As I am sure you are aware, we do things slightly differently here on the Isle of Man.
Custodial sentences for blatant breaches are the norm.
The latest culprit:
https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/woman-remanded-at-prison-for-failing-to-self-isolate/
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: dowdstree on Sunday 20 September 20 12:17 BST (UK)
I don't think that the amount of a fine whether it be £100 or £1000 will make one jot of a difference to those who are caught breaching the guidelines. If they cannot afford to pay will they be given time to pay it up at x amount a week? More than likely. It is a no win situation either way in the UK.

Your friend made the correct choice Louisa Maud as did friends of ours on returning from Spain recently. Asked at Edinburgh Airport what they would be doing tomorrow "Self Isolating" they replied. Correct they were told.

Dorrie

Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: jillruss on Sunday 20 September 20 16:12 BST (UK)
Two words:

DOMINIC CUMMINGS
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Sunday 20 September 20 16:54 BST (UK)
I don't want to get involved in party politics.

I'll do anything I can to protect others, my family and myself, Mark
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Monday 28 September 20 15:18 BST (UK)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54320482
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Biggles50 on Monday 28 September 20 15:44 BST (UK)
It is a no win situation.

Token fines do not work.

I will generalise but with the majority of people born since 1960 there is a different set of Social Standards employed by them compared to my older generation, they seem very much self centred only on themselves, their close family and friends. 

Where is the respect for someone older than them that was instilled in us by our family and teachers?

It seems today that if your child does not have ADHD they are not normal, such is the rampant social problems with kids at school.

The world is doomed.
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Monday 28 September 20 16:03 BST (UK)

Where is the respect for someone older than them that was instilled in us by our family and teachers?


I see a breakdown of respect for authorities too and even some children toward their parents.

A Leicester Mother was on the Jeremy Vine Radio Show this dinnertime between 13.10 and 14.00 saying her Son is Covid Positive and complaining he is not isolating and still going out.

Mark
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: louisa maud on Monday 28 September 20 16:20 BST (UK)
Shame on him

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: heywood on Monday 28 September 20 16:24 BST (UK)
I will generalise but with the majority of people born since 1960 there is a different set of Social Standards employed by them compared to my older generation, they seem very much self centred only on themselves, their close family and friends. 

Let’s hope you never have to go into hospital or a care home.
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Mike in Cumbria on Monday 28 September 20 16:42 BST (UK)
It is a no win situation.

Token fines do not work.

I will generalise but with the majority of people born since 1960 there is a different set of Social Standards employed by them compared to my older generation, they seem very much self centred only on themselves, their close family and friends. 

Where is the respect for someone older than them that was instilled in us by our family and teachers?

It seems today that if your child does not have ADHD they are not normal, such is the rampant social problems with kids at school.

The world is doomed.

Utter nonsense.
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Monday 28 September 20 16:50 BST (UK)
It is a no win situation.

Token fines do not work.

I will generalise but with the majority of people born since 1960 there is a different set of Social Standards employed by them compared to my older generation, they seem very much self centred only on themselves, their close family and friends. 

Where is the respect for someone older than them that was instilled in us by our family and teachers?

It seems today that if your child does not have ADHD they are not normal, such is the rampant social problems with kids at school.

The world is doomed.

Utter nonsense.

I'm not sure Mike, only time will tell.

BBC Radio also made a claim today of something quite awful looming, if a person catches Influenza and Covid-19 together during this Winter.

We'll only have the answer next March / April 2021, as to whether the claim has any basis or not?

Mark
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: KGarrad on Monday 28 September 20 16:53 BST (UK)
I prefer the Manx way ;D
2 weeks in self-isolation, or risk a jail term of 4, 6 or 8 weeks.
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 28 September 20 17:11 BST (UK)
I prefer the Manx way ;D
2 weeks in self-isolation, or risk a jail term of 4, 6 or 8 weeks.

Our jails would be overflowing.   ::)

The occupants of Jurby on the TV programme did not look too unhappy with being in there  ;D.  ;D
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Monday 28 September 20 17:28 BST (UK)
a) Influenza virus and Covid-19 (SARS-CoV-2) are claimed to be two different viruses
b) Only 18% of those with Symptons were found to be isolating (UK Government via BBC) -

Which means about 4/5ths of those with symptons are not following instructions

Mark
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: louisa maud on Monday 28 September 20 17:40 BST (UK)
If this is true a young man is going  to work with covid, I think he should be arrested  and fined

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: barryd on Monday 28 September 20 17:59 BST (UK)
Sadly fines are used to raise revenue. If fines were abolished and automatic imprisonment was substituted there would be a lot less enthusiasm for prosecution. If an OAP gets caught feeding a seagull a piece of bread in Brighton - 3 months. No ifs and buts. The law is the law regardless of expense. Likewise Covid.
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: jillruss on Monday 28 September 20 18:25 BST (UK)
Sadly fines are used to raise revenue. If fines were abolished and automatic imprisonment was substituted there would be a lot less enthusiasm for prosecution. If an OAP gets caught feeding a seagull a piece of bread in Brighton - 3 months. No ifs and buts. The law is the law regardless of expense. Likewise Covid.

3 months for 'a piece' of bread. How much for a whole slice? How about the stocks, or a good old fashioned 'S' branded on the forehead?

Are you serious?????  Do you wear jackboots and a brown uniform?  ::)
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: JenB on Monday 28 September 20 19:06 BST (UK)
I will generalise but with the majority of people born since 1960 there is a different set of Social Standards employed by them compared to my older generation, they seem very much self centred only on themselves, their close family and friends. 

Well, at a stroke you've rubbished a large proportion of the medical professions, not to mention many other.
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Rena on Monday 28 September 20 20:23 BST (UK)
Two words:

DOMINIC CUMMINGS

If Dominic Cummings jumped into a fire - would you?

Trying to cite an action taken by somebody else is no excuse -

and usually ended up by either me or one of my brothers facing the wall whilst we thought about how to answer the questions that usually started with "Why"; "Who"; "What";  "Where"  and "When" ::).
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: groom on Monday 28 September 20 20:53 BST (UK)
I think some of the problem is the number of people who have been told to self isolate. If you have proved positive there is no argument, self isolate or be fined. However where it gets difficult is the thousands who are told to self isolate because they "may" have been in contact with someone who has tested positive. A friend teaches in a Primary school - someone, and they aren't allowed to know whether a adult or child, in Year 2 tested positive. So all children and adults in year 2 and year 1 were sent home and told to self isolate. Then they were advised that Reception and Nursery should do the same as they couldn't social distance. That's almost 200 children and 30 staff. The staff were told that their own children didn't have to self isolate, so if they go to another school they can still attend. My friend knows for certain that she can't have come into contact with anyone in Year 2. Most of the children won't have done either. I thought that was the whole point of have the children un bubbles - it doesn't seem to be working.
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: heywood on Monday 28 September 20 21:22 BST (UK)
Groom, I thought I would just have a look at the advice  :o
Just a bit of light reading:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/guidance-for-schools-coronavirus-covid-19

One Year 13 grandchild  returned to school and the whole year group had to isolate within days. They returned  and within two days were off again. The school then reviewed after a few days and those not in contact with the person were allowed back in.
Another grandchild - Year 10 - is now at home and again it is not all the ‘bubble’ - the whole year group - that has been excluded, it is just tutor groups/friends contacts.
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 29 September 20 08:36 BST (UK)
A few weeks ago my daughter spent the weekend waiting if she and all menbers of staff would need to self-isolate because she works with Person 3-
Person 1 tested positive on Friday
Person 1 went out Saturday night with a group of friends to THREE different places
Person 2 went out Saturday night with Person 1 then had contact with their child & child's mother (Person 3)
Person 2 tested positive, child & child's mother (Person 3) also had to be tested
Girlfriend of Person 2 went to work in care home...
If Person 1 had the sense to stay at home then this whole chain of infections could have been prevented
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: jillruss on Tuesday 29 September 20 12:48 BST (UK)
Two words:

DOMINIC CUMMINGS

If Dominic Cummings jumped into a fire - would you?

Trying to cite an action taken by somebody else is no excuse -

and usually ended up by either me or one of my brothers facing the wall whilst we thought about how to answer the questions that usually started with "Why"; "Who"; "What";  "Where"  and "When" ::).

What on earth are you talking about? Jumping into what fire????  ??? Have you deliberately missed my point - that the government took no action action against Mr Cummings's (and other government officials) actions and therefore has no high horse to stand on nor justification for penalising anyone else for doing similarly. Or are you advocating 'do as I say, not as I do'?
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: groom on Tuesday 29 September 20 18:20 BST (UK)
I heard something very worrying today. My hairdresser came to me, I feel very safe with her as she also works in a care home two days a week, so has her temperature taken every time she goes in and is tested once a week. The care home has been covid free.

However, the owner of the group of homes did catch it in April, he is in his early 50s and apparently very over weight. He needed intensive care and ventilation - so did two other patients admitted at the same time. There was only one bed available! So the hospital staff had to do an assessment and as the youngest he was given the bed. Luckily after 10 days he recovered but doesn't know what happened to the other two. Let's hope the situation has improved if hospital admissions go up!
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Rena on Tuesday 29 September 20 20:13 BST (UK)
Two words:

DOMINIC CUMMINGS

If Dominic Cummings jumped into a fire - would you?

Trying to cite an action taken by somebody else is no excuse -

and usually ended up by either me or one of my brothers facing the wall whilst we thought about how to answer the questions that usually started with "Why"; "Who"; "What";  "Where"  and "When" ::).

What on earth are you talking about? Jumping into what fire????  ??? Have you deliberately missed my point - that the government took no action action against Mr Cummings's (and other government officials) actions and therefore has no high horse to stand on nor justification for penalising anyone else for doing similarly. Or are you advocating 'do as I say, not as I do'?

At the time of DC's action there wasn't any law that would either fine him or take him to prison.

I don't think yhou've read my post in the manner in which it was intended.

I quoted my father's favourite saying of; "If X jumped into the fire would you"

I haven't been one of the sheep who followed DC's actions. 

As a matter of fact I think practically the whole of the portfolio MPs (who try very very hard) aren't up to their tasks and neither is the two faced person whose initials are DC
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: jillruss on Tuesday 29 September 20 22:10 BST (UK)
Two words:

DOMINIC CUMMINGS

If Dominic Cummings jumped into a fire - would you?

Trying to cite an action taken by somebody else is no excuse -

and usually ended up by either me or one of my brothers facing the wall whilst we thought about how to answer the questions that usually started with "Why"; "Who"; "What";  "Where"  and "When" ::).

What on earth are you talking about? Jumping into what fire????  ??? Have you deliberately missed my point - that the government took no action action against Mr Cummings's (and other government officials) actions and therefore has no high horse to stand on nor justification for penalising anyone else for doing similarly. Or are you advocating 'do as I say, not as I do'?

At the time of DC's action there wasn't any law that would either fine him or take him to prison.

I don't think yhou've read my post in the manner in which it was intended.

I quoted my father's favourite saying of; "If X jumped into the fire would you"

I haven't been one of the sheep who followed DC's actions. 

As a matter of fact I think practically the whole of the portfolio MPs (who try very very hard) aren't up to their tasks and neither is the two faced person whose initials are DC

Fair enough, then perhaps we agree to a certain extent, except I don't think anyone has sheepishly 'followed' DC's actions in that way. I don't think anyone would want to copy him and his pathetic excuses. If people are not following government rules it will either be because they've thought about it and reached that decision, or because they couldn't care less.

The point of my bringing his name into it  is that our government should lead by example and how can they expect us mere mortals to obey every edict they issue if they can't do so themselves.

Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: pharmaT on Wednesday 30 September 20 09:51 BST (UK)
It is a no win situation.

Token fines do not work.

I will generalise but with the majority of people born since 1960 there is a different set of Social Standards employed by them compared to my older generation, they seem very much self centred only on themselves, their close family and friends. 

Where is the respect for someone older than them that was instilled in us by our family and teachers?

It seems today that if your child does not have ADHD they are not normal, such is the rampant social problems with kids at school.

The world is doomed.

I think you are vastly underestimating the strength it takes to act respectfully towards those who regard us with such contempt.  But do you know what? The majority of us do, even though we know the person we are helping is disgusted by us.

I was born well after 1960, at least 90% of my colleagues were (I'm so self-centred I haven't asked their ages). A couple of my colleagues were born after 2000. Do you want to hear how self-centred they are? Possibly not, so many who've felt the need to tell me have made their minds up and aren't interested but I'll try anyway.

My colleagues are so selfish they turned up for work every day and worked their whole shift even before we had PPE delivered.

So selfish they they worked through their breaks and stayed late because people needed care.

So selfish that they bent over backwards so they could hold someone's hand to prevent them dying alone.

So selfish they came in for extra shifts, often at short notice, when their colleagues fell ill one by one.  The ones who became ill selfishly pushed themselves to come back to work as soon as no longer an infection risk even if physically not properly fit.

So self-centred the jumped straight back to caring for others (because it was needed) after participating in a filed CPR attempt on their own colleague.

Then when we had to isolate when my daughter was ill it was a selfish teenager whom I'd never met before that dropped bread and milk on our doorstep.

It's young people who've volunteered to act as welcomers and help manage the one way system.  They're not getting paid yet turn up every shift they have volunteered for despite being shouted at and even spat at by members of the public.

There are a lot of selfish people out there, people who cannot see the point of doing something for another person and I believe the media encourages this mentality. It is not a characteristic I can attribute to a particular age group.  For example, at the other end of the scale the person I know who self isolated by going to the corner shop instead of the supermarket (they were symptomatic) was born before 1950.  Yes, I'm aware that is only one example, and yes I can find examples of young people being selfish and rude but they are being that way because they are ignorant individuals not because they are under 60.

Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: dowdstree on Wednesday 30 September 20 10:31 BST (UK)
Thank you pharmaT for giving us a first hand account of what it is like to work on the frontline. Society can never repay you and your colleagues all over the Country for your dedication and care. Also those who volunteer and help even in a small way deserve our thanks too.

There will always be people in this world who are caring and those who couldn't give a damn. Age has nothing to do with it.

Dorrie



Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Wednesday 30 September 20 10:39 BST (UK)
Hello pharmaT and All
I'm sure Biggles50 was NOT referring to Medical Personnel like you.

However we do seem to have some in denial over the grave seriouness of this Covid-19, protesting for their Freedom and Liberty in London and many not even social distancing at their protest.
 -----------
One Scientist saying words to the effect this morning ... look the rate of infections are high because we are doing more testing (making excuses), but then having to admit the rate of increase of daily infections also prove our situation is worsening.
 -----------
The BBC has just announced One Welsh Hospital has 82 Covid cases and this is only September:-
All Operations cancelled and
A & E being diverted to three other Welsh hospitals -

If this BBC Report is true I don't need to say anything else as to the grave seriousness the inhabitants of England AND our NHS AND other Care Providers face this Winter, even getting everyday routine diagnostic medical assistance (Tests and Operations)?

Then there are the economic effects - lost Jobs and incomes people rely on to look after themselves and families.

Mark
Title: Re: England - Covid: £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: pharmaT on Wednesday 30 September 20 10:59 BST (UK)
Hello pharmaT and All
I'm sure Biggles50 was NOT referring to Medical Personnel like you.

However we do seem to have some in denial over the grave seriouness of this Covid-19, protesting for their Freedom and Liberty in London and many not even social distancing at their protest.
 -----------
One Scientist saying words to the effect this morning ... look the rate of infections are high because we are doing more testing (making excuses), but then having to admit the rate of increase of daily infections also prove our situation is worsening.
 -----------
The BBC has just announced One Welsh Hospital has 82 Covid cases and this is only September:-
All Operations cancelled and
A & E being diverted to three other Welsh hospitals -

If this BBC Report is true I don't need to say anything else as to the grave seriousness the inhabitants of England AND our NHS AND other Care Providers face this Winter, even getting everyday routine diagnostic medical assistance (Tests and Operations)?

Mark

I view "but I/they didn't mean you" as a standard offence to the ridiculousness of someone's statement being pointed out.  The fact is the vast majority of medical personnel were born after 1960.  If you re-read the latter part of my post you will find that I did say that there were many selfish people about it is just that it is not their age that makes them selfish but that they are a selfish individual.
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: pharmaT on Wednesday 30 September 20 11:09 BST (UK)
And to add to that it's not just medical personnel is it? It's the supermarket staff who continued to go to work, many of them are under 60.

The teenagers volunteering to drop food for those isolating (as mentioned in my original post).

The young people volunteering in hospitals (also mentioned in previous post)

Food processing workers and transport workers who also kept working.

People under 60 who are caring for people in their own homes.

The teachers who are teaching in the schools, volunteered for keyworker schools when in tighter lockdown, created online learning, did welfare visits, made welfare phone calls to vlunerable families, bought supplies for vulnerable families, sometimes from their own money.

The volunteers at Samaratins, Childline, Rape Crisis, DOmestic Abuse hotline etc.  Some of them will be under 60.

Do the young people who've managed to keep up with their studies really have no sense of responsibilities.  Because I'm telling you many have produced a lot of work during lockdown and a proportion of those have done so despite barriers such as poor internet, no, or only obsolete devices
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 30 September 20 11:54 BST (UK)
I agree with you PharmaT. So often, there is condemnation of one specific group rather than an acceptance that sadly, all ages are capable of good/bad attitudes; kindness/unkindness; recklessness and safety.

Many of us here are very fortunate that we do not need to go out if we don’t want to do so. Others are working to keep life moving and often they are from the younger age group working in stressful situations.

There were many older participants in the recent Freedom protests that Mark refers to as in other demonstrations.

A little anecdote:
Yesterday, we had a most pleasant walk and stopped at a cafe for ice cream. There were clear ‘No Entry’ signs with arrows directing customers to the entrance to the one way safety system.  I was queuing for about 15 minutes and in that time at least three older people asked if they could ‘just join the queue’ via the no entry. Their faces said everything (one grumbled outright) when they were reminded by the young server that they would have to walk around.
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Pheno on Wednesday 30 September 20 12:10 BST (UK)
I don't feel that those protesting about their freedom and liberty are denying either the existence or seriousness of covid-19, just that they are willing to accept the consequences and also a desire to keep the economy going so that there is some hope for the future financially.

Some of them will be personally affected by the consequences and whilst most probably wouldn't want their nearest and dearest to suffer/die I feel that generally there is an attitude of 'if that's what it takes....'

This really does appear to be an age divide and I think we just don't see the overall populace attitude on this board as we are all generally well into the upper age bracket with all the vulnerability that brings.

It certainly isn't a representative sample.

Pheno
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: pharmaT on Wednesday 30 September 20 12:19 BST (UK)
I don't feel that those protesting about their freedom and liberty are denying either the existence or seriousness of covid-19, just that they are willing to accept the consequences and also a desire to keep the economy going so that there is some hope for the future financially.

Some of them will be personally affected by the consequences and whilst most probably wouldn't want their nearest and dearest to suffer/die I feel that generally there is an attitude of 'if that's what it takes....'

This really does appear to be an age divide and I think we just don't see the overall populace attitude on this board as we are all generally well into the upper age bracket with all the vulnerability that brings.

It certainly isn't a representative sample.

Pheno

I was actually born several years after 1960. My colleagues were born between 1958 and 2002, so the majority were born after 1960.

Whilst I'm sure many of the protestors just disagree on how to manage covid I cannot agree that the general consensus that they agree it's both real and serious.  Having read their placards and comments they have made on Twitter that is not the case for a lot of them.  Comments range from "it's just a cold" and "it's just the flu" underplaying the seriousness of the illness and belying a lack of understanding of 'flu' imo to "I'm fit it won't bother me, I'll be fine" which to me is accepting the potential seriousness but complete seriousness.  Then there are others calling it "scamdemic", saying "it's a fake illness", "they're lying about how many have died " etc.  Proponents of these views have been across the whole spectrum of ages.
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Pheno on Wednesday 30 September 20 12:33 BST (UK)
Perhaps I should have started ' I don't feel that all those protesting......

Can't see what the fact that your colleagues were born between 1958 and 2002 has to do with what I said.

I am of the opinion that there is a heavy bias of the older fraternity using this board (I am not excluding myself here) and as such it is unlikely that the board will be a representative sample of the populace so it is likely that opinions will be skewed by the older more vulnerable of us on here.  That view seems to be the polar opposite of the opinions I have heard expressed by the younger swathe of society.  Not that they won't assist/volunteer/work or would want their elderly relatives to be adversely affected, but if that is the nature of this serious virus then 'so be it', so that people who are going to majorly contribute to getting the world back on its feet can do so in relative normality.

Pheno
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: pharmaT on Wednesday 30 September 20 12:44 BST (UK)
Perhaps I should have started ' I don't feel that all those protesting......

Can't see what the fact that your colleagues were born between 1958 and 2002 has to do with what I said.

I am of the opinion that there is a heavy bias of the older fraternity using this board (I am not excluding myself here) and as such it is unlikely that the board will be a representative sample of the populace so it is likely that opinions will be skewed by the older more vulnerable of us on here.  That view seems to be the polar opposite of the opinions I have heard expressed by the younger swathe of society.  Not that they won't assist/volunteer/work or would want their elderly relatives to be adversely affected, but if that is the nature of this serious virus then 'so be it', so that people who are going to majorly contribute to getting the world back on its feet can do so in relative normality.

Pheno

The point is that they, despite so many of them being younger do no espouse the attitudes attributed to their age group.  The point is although the demographic of this forum is as you say skewed to the older age group it is no only their views that can be reported.  At least not if we fully open our eyes and ears and listen to them instead of dismissing them as being selfish.  I also think there are more members of this forum under 60 than you may think.

Consider this.  You are most likely to hear those complaining about having to follow covid measures, hear those out protesting and perhaps that skews your views of young people.  You're not going to hear the young people who are focusing on studying, going to work, carrying out caring responsibilities, volunteering etc.  The danger is we assume all young people are complaining about having to follow covid measures, and ignoring them because those who aren't complaining and partying are too busy unobtrusively getting on with it.
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Pheno on Wednesday 30 September 20 12:52 BST (UK)
Who is the 'them' you are dismissing as being selfish?

I said that young people were willing to assist/help/work etc and its great you work with countless numbers of them.  I also didn't say that they were complaining about having to follow covid measures.

Anyway that's enough now - I would really like young people to have a normal daily life even at the expense of myself and some others.

Pheno
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: pharmaT on Wednesday 30 September 20 13:19 BST (UK)
Who is the 'them' you are dismissing as being selfish?

I said that young people were willing to assist/help/work etc and its great you work with countless numbers of them.  I also didn't say that they were complaining about having to follow covid measures.

Anyway that's enough now - I would really like young people to have a normal daily life even at the expense of myself and some others.

Pheno

I think that's a mistake many make, and I understand why they do with the way the media reports it.  It is not just about protecting older people it is about protecting everyone.  Although younger people are less likely to be hospitalised many are still becoming very ill and suffering from what has become known as long covid.  It is becoming more apparent that covid can cause myocrditis and aortitis and this in turn can cause permanent lung scarring, it can cause fibrosis of the lungs.  Nobody wants to sentence a whole generation to a lifetime of chronic illness if there is a way to reduce the chance of that.

Then there's the indirect affect, if the hospitals end up completely full with patient's who have covid there is no capacity to treat those who have other illnesses or accidents.  That will impact all generations.  If too many are ill at once then how does the economy run without sufficent staff to operate it?
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: KGarrad on Wednesday 30 September 20 15:06 BST (UK)
Judging by the number of University Students testing as positive, it would appear that it's the young who should be shielding?
Letting the older generation to live a normal, Covid-free, life. ;D ;D
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: louisa maud on Wednesday 30 September 20 15:23 BST (UK)
In my opinion whilst I have tried to be upbeat about the whole situation I am becoming more and more downhearted  as time draws on,   whoever is to blame for the spead of this virus is neither here nor there, WE All  have to be careful  and do the right things for our fellow men and women, so I am hoping that people are becoming more sensible as they read the news and new information to be adhered to by ALL , now, not when they feel like it

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Rena on Wednesday 30 September 20 15:36 BST (UK)

Whilst I'm sure many of the protestors just disagree on how to manage covid I cannot agree that the general consensus that they agree it's both real and serious.  Having read their placards and comments they have made on Twitter that is not the case for a lot of them.  Comments range from "it's just a cold" and "it's just the flu" underplaying the seriousness of the illness and belying a lack of understanding of 'flu' imo to "I'm fit it won't bother me, I'll be fine" which to me is accepting the potential seriousness but complete seriousness.  Then there are others calling it "scamdemic", saying "it's a fake illness", "they're lying about how many have died " etc.  Proponents of these views have been across the whole spectrum of ages.

Ref the 1960s:: 
That just about describes the attitude of one of my offspring born 1965, who believes somebody that she describes as being a "paramedic". This person states a scam is being perpetrated and covid-19 is just a flu and there's no need to take extreme lockdown isolation precautions .   Her brother born 1966 takes totally the opposite view and joins with me that we should take precautions, which will leave the NHS and private health personnel more equipment and more hours to care for patients who have other ailments, such as cancers and heart and chest problems, etc., etc.

P.S. I have to state that I have an interest in people following the latest "best practice" as my hospital oppointment has been cancelled time & time again for seven months during which time I have had an extremely painful eye.  I saw the specialist this week and he is referring me to another hospital.

 
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Wednesday 30 September 20 20:32 BST (UK)

 ... WE All  have to be careful  and do the right things for our fellow men and women, so I am hoping that people are becoming more sensible as they read the news and new information to be adhered to by ALL , now, not when they feel like it

Louisa Maud

Louisa, I hope too, people who are in denial see the reality.
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Yes pharmaT, there are many of all ages including young people who have done good works and helped during the crisis.
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Coventry last night (Some Media online have film)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-54349548

The problem is ... Coventry was and still is on a Covid 2nd wave Warning due to the increasing Covid infection numbers there.
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The Guardian 4 Days Ago
"Police have broken up a protest in central London after thousands of people defied their advice and demonstrated against lockdowns, mass vaccinations, mandatory wearing of face masks ... "

The above is the Freedom and Liberty protesters of all ages were seeking.
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After the Briefing today Professor Sir Mark Walport FRS FRCP FRCPath FMedSci FRSE (English Medical Scientist) was asked to comment on the Briefing and said on TV today ... our behaviour will determine the outcome
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/covid-19-second-wave-sage-adviser-mark-walport-643845
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BBC
32 Billion items of PPE have been bought
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52254745

Mark
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: LizzieL on Thursday 01 October 20 07:58 BST (UK)
Study on quarantine breakers here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54346001
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Thursday 01 October 20 12:59 BST (UK)
Imperial College London (Random Testing Samples of General Population)
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/205473/latest-react-findings-show-high-number/

Professor Paul Elliott, director of the REACT programme at Imperial, said: “While our latest findings show some early evidence that the growth of new cases may have slowed, suggesting efforts to control the infection are working, the prevalence of infection is the highest that we have recorded to date. This reinforces the need for protective measures to limit the spread of the disease and the public’s adherence to these, which will be vital to minimise further significant illness and loss of life from COVID-19.

Imperial College say the R rate needs to be well below 1 to bring the current high Virus results under control.

Figures just mentioned verbally by Imperial
Say about 1 in 100 of young people have the Virus and apparently 1 in 200 in an older age group are also Positive and our infections are still far too high.
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Recent Testing in England shows the Daily infections have doubled in a week.

Mark
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Friday 02 October 20 22:52 BST (UK)
Midlands Police are receiving about 300 reports of Covid breaches a day.

I suspect you have already heard that the first of the £10,000 penalties have already been handed out for serious breaches.
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: louisa maud on Saturday 03 October 20 03:15 BST (UK)
In my opinion so they should be, anyone who flouts the suggested rules should be fined, whoever they are

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: pharmaT on Saturday 03 October 20 07:51 BST (UK)
In my opinion so they should be, anyone who flouts the suggested rules should be fined, whoever they are

Louisa Maud

I'm especially mad at that MP.  In her 'apology' she said she should have sought advice on what to do.  She's a supposedly capable adult what is complicated about the idea that if you have covid you don't travel right across the country, go to work (in a busy place) then travel back across the country on public transport!
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Guy Etchells on Saturday 03 October 20 08:13 BST (UK)
In my opinion so they should be, anyone who flouts the suggested rules should be fined, whoever they are

Louisa Maud

I think the fines for refusing to supply contact details should be £10,000 for first offence and £30,000 if you supply false details. Supplied details should be checked against passports at ports & airports and other evidence driving licence etc., should be supplied in other instances.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: pharmaT on Saturday 03 October 20 08:27 BST (UK)
In my opinion so they should be, anyone who flouts the suggested rules should be fined, whoever they are

Louisa Maud

I think the fines for refusing to supply contact details should be £10,000 for first offence and £30,000 if you supply false details. Supplied details should be checked against passports at ports & airports and other evidence driving licence etc., should be supplied in other instances.
Cheers
Guy

I have heard some people make you call them so that it comes up on the caller display to prove you've at least given the correct number.
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: LizzieL on Saturday 03 October 20 09:16 BST (UK)
In my opinion so they should be, anyone who flouts the suggested rules should be fined, whoever they are

Louisa Maud

I think the fines for refusing to supply contact details should be £10,000 for first offence and £30,000 if you supply false details. Supplied details should be checked against passports at ports & airports and other evidence driving licence etc., should be supplied in other instances.
Cheers
Guy

Aren't these spot checks on people in quarantine done by phone. Passports don't have phone numbers or addresses on. And if a  mobile number is given, who's to know where the person actually is when and if they are called.
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Saturday 03 October 20 10:31 BST (UK)
Too many people have lost loved ones, or have loved ones still ill waiting for treatment, or left with Covid complications, lost their jobs, or see their business going downhill and losing income.
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Reports are being investigated of offending.
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The figures vary on those failing to isolate with symptons.
Only 18% here ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54320482

Mark
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Rena on Saturday 03 October 20 18:41 BST (UK)
I'm wondering if the "couldn't care less" attitude of a portion of society is that the old fashioned tightly knit family unit is a thing of the past.

It must be quite rare these days for couples with children to live in their childhood neighbourhood, as most have had to move away to find work.  Then a few decades ago we had one cabinet MP more or less sneering at young adults who lived with their parents and the end result was that it was the new "norm" not to help parents with mortgages/rent but to strike out on their own and hand over money to the new millionaire landlords.   

With the onset of technology we now have  youngsters of every age with their own mobile phones, i-pads, TV sets, computer games, etc.    Conversation at home is made with adolescent grunts and conversations with pals is via "shorthand" text.

With all this modern disconnect - there's no wonder a segment of society think they don't have to take responsibility for their actions and their actions have no consequences for other people. 
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Maiden Stone on Saturday 03 October 20 20:23 BST (UK)

That just about describes the attitude of one of my offspring born 1965, who believes somebody that she describes as being a "paramedic". This person states a scam is being perpetrated and covid-19 is just a flu and there's no need to take extreme lockdown isolation precautions .   

This week's edition of "The Media Show", Wednesday 30th September, Radio 4 was about untruths, conspiracy theories, &c.
One interviewee was from Politifact, a U.S. fact-checking organisation https://www.politifact.com
(A British fact-checking site is Full Fact. It has a coronavirus section.  https://fullfact.org)
Another interviewee was Nancy Rosenblum, co-author of "A Lot of People Are Saying: The New Conspiracism and the Assault on Democracy". The book was published last year , pre-Covid-19, but arguments in it are relevant. There are some long reviews on LSE blog and on "Good Read" website. What the authors term "new conspiracism" differs from traditional conspiracy theories. New conspiracist authority relies on repetition of claims.
People can unwittingly go "down the rabbit-hole" and become lost in new conspiracism. An example given in the radio programme was an organisation which is apparently a pressure group about protecting children but which on closer inspection turns out to be a "rabbit-hole" to a "new conspiracist" recently banned from media platforms under a previous identity.

Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Maiden Stone on Saturday 03 October 20 21:36 BST (UK)
Continuation of my reply 56.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-53997203

"Coronavirus: the viral rumours that were completely wrong"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-53640964

"Coronavirus: how to talk about conspiracy theories" Video.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-53395619
Last 2 are from BBC News anti-disinformation unit.
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Redroger on Sunday 04 October 20 12:26 BST (UK)
Personally I believe the imposition of fines is pointless. A much better solution would be house arrest monitored by a fitted tag. If that was breached then 14 days solitary confinement on restricted diet ought to work. A group of welders from Doncaster have just received 14 days in the Isle of Man, there were mitigating circumstances in that they followed English restrictions which do not apply there, but the idea is sound
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 04 October 20 12:33 BST (UK)
Personally I believe the imposition of fines is pointless. A much better solution would be house arrest monitored by a fitted tag. If that was breached then 14 days solitary confinement on restricted diet ought to work. A group of welders from Doncaster have just received 14 days in the Isle of Man, there were mitigating circumstances in that they followed English restrictions which do not apply there, but the idea is sound

Their company was told of the restrictions imposed on visiting key workers.
The guys themselves were given standard IOM Government instructions on the ferry trip.
They put these "on the dashboard" and didn't read them!

Then they decided to visit Tesco and McDonalds.

Not a lot of sympathy here on the island!
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: Redroger on Sunday 04 October 20 12:38 BST (UK)
Fair enough. As I said before I believe this to be more effective than fining people money they haven't got, or won't pay.
Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: dowdstree on Sunday 04 October 20 13:32 BST (UK)
I like your idea Redroger. My husband was voicing a similar "penalty" a few days ago as he feels that fines are useless. People will just not pay them.

No sympathy for the workers who breached IOM instructions. They got what they deserved.

Dorrie

Title: Re: England - £10,000 fines for self-isolation breaches
Post by: BushInn1746 on Monday 05 October 20 09:11 BST (UK)
England Public Health

Seems some of these fines are Fixed Penalty Notices.
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https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q213.htm
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Security issues, has put Building Owners/Management in trouble.
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Won't pay or can't pay, probably not far behind the Isle of Man.