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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: derekjwatson25 on Monday 21 September 20 16:06 BST (UK)
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I am looking for assistance in tracing story of Ethel Quin. She married Geoffrey Graham Baird in Reading on 18th October 1952 and sailed to South Africa in November 1953 aboard Braemar Castle (? ). Quin was her maiden name and she married Victor Charles Lewis Glenister in May 1947.
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Can you clarify what you mean by “tracing the story of Ethel Quin”
Where & when was she born?
Presumably divorced Glenister as he only died 1990. They had a child born 1947 who appears to have remained in England as there is a marriage in 1965.
Geoffrey G Baird appears to have been b 1929 whereas Victor Glenister was b 1920
You may want to change your subject header. You are looking for Ethel Baird nee Quin.
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I’m researching on behalf of the daughter who was born in 1947 to her and first husband Victor Glenister. Her mum remarried Geoffrey Baird and left in 1953 to go to South Africa. She arrived in Cape Town and she never wrote to her daughter. She is trying to find out if her mum had anymore children while in SA or if she moved on from there or settled.
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Where & when was Ethel born?
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I see that Geoffrey died in 1994 in Kent. Would his English probate papers perhaps give more information?
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Ethel Quin was born on 19th January 1928. Her address on the land army registration was Salford Manchester. She arrived in Cape Town in 1953. She never wrote to her daughter in the UK.
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Good find Nookie.
If Geoffrey Graham Baird died in Kent in 1994 then he must have returned to the UK between 1953-1994
No UK death for Ethel as Baird.
If Ethel was born January 1928 then she was not born in England. There is only one birth on freebmd in 1928 & that was Quinn and in the September qtr
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Reply removed - wrong person
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Land Army Registration? What date? Born in January 1928 she was only 11 when WW2 commenced
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A Geoffrey G Baird married in 1959 in Kent. This birth matches his death birthdate
March qtr 1929 Geoffrey G Baird mmn Soper Barton on Irwell 8c 845
Death
Geoffrey Graham Baird b 10.3.1929 died 1994 Bexley
That shortens his return to between 1953-1959
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I see that probate was granted for an Ethel Quin in Manchester on 3/2/1941 with the first beneficiary being Charles Quin. I wonder if these could be her parents? Thinking she might have gone home before joining the Land Army.
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Looking better - Ethel and Charles lived in Salford, Manchester. Possibly Ethel Quin/Glenister/Baird was named after her mother.
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I cannot trace a divorce in South Africa for Geoffrey and Ethel.
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She joined the land army in June 1945..unfortunately the marriage certificates I have do not show parents names or occupations.
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Could have gone to stay with her dad Charlie.
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Strange that neither of her marriage certs show a fathers name. That usually only happens if a child was illegitimate
Ethel Quin death 1941 - born 1882 per 1939 register
No children in 1939. Charles Quin only married Ethel Kelsall Crookell in 1937. Probate for Ethel was granted to Harold Crookell lance corporal HM army
Harold Crookell b 1911 - mmn Kelsall
George Crookell b 1902 mmn Kelsall died 1905
No Crookell/Kelsall marriage
Don't think they are connected to this Ethel Quin
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Wishful thinking on my part I reckon >:(
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She joined the land army in June 1945..unfortunately the marriage certificates I have do not show parents names or occupations.
Who were the witnesses?
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On Ethels marriage to Glenister which was in Wycombe on 3/5/1947 it was G Hornsey and A Randall.
On the marriage to Geoffrey Baird which was in Reading on 15/10/1952 it was J L Baird and D Dibley.
We think her father Charles Quin was a local school teacher in Salford.
We think Ethel travelled alone to Cape Town ?
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We think Ethel travelled alone to Cape Town ?
In your first post you mention Ethel travelling to South Africa aboard the Braemar Castle in November 1953. The only Bairds I can see on this voyage are Mr R and Mrs M Baird travelling together and Mrs E Baird , 25 , travelling with two female children , aged 8 and 5 , from an address in Peterhead ( 10 Cairncatlo Road ). I've not named the children as they may well still be living.
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the Braemar Castle left uk on 4/11/53 so the would have made Ethel 25 which looks about right but she could have left with 2 children to marriage to G Baird. Her passenger number on the ship was 417/13
Her daughter who was born in 1947 to her marriage to Glenister was an only child
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From your reply above you refer to Ethel's father being Charles and possibly a school teacher but in your earlier reply you say there is no fathers name on either of her marriage certs? So where did Charles name come from?
The couple mentioned by Nookie have been ruled out
You say she was born 19th January 1928 - where did that info come from? As I mentioned in my earlier reply there is no birth in England/Wales/Scotland to support that birthdate
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The birth date came from her Land Army records.
If it is correct that she sailed with 2 Baird children, then they surely must have been Geoffrey's children and not hers. They would have been born round 1945 and 1948. In 1947 she was married to Victor Glenister and had a daughter then, so I don't think they were hers.
Was Geoffrey married before?
Who was the daughter - born in 1947 - living with when she left for South Africa?
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Unfortunately I can’t scan in the certificates for both her marriage (Copy to large) but on both her fathers name is blank and on her marriage to Geoffrey the mothers name is also blank. Geoffrey is shown as bachelor aged 23.
I’ve asked the daughter if her mother was illegitimate or adopted by the Quin family ( maybe illegally? ) maybe she was employed as a nanny for the 2 children ? It’s quite a mystery I’m afraid
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Who was the daughter living with when Ethel left the country leaving her behind?
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She was brought up with her father and grandparents
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Geoffrey was only born in 1929. The children on the voyage were born 1845 & 1848 so unlikely to have any connection to him.
“And on her marriage to Geoffrey the mothers name is also blank“
Mothers names are never shown on English marriage certs - only fathers??
The witness JL Baird was Geoffrey’s brother James L Baird born 1927
If she was born in 1928 - she was a minor when she married in 1947. What age is shown for her on the 1947 marriage cert?
Have you checked freebmd - there is no birth reg for an Ethel Quin/Quinn in the March qtr 1928
www.freebmd.org.uk
Geoffrey’s marriage in England in 1959 indicates they either divorced or Ethel died. It may be an idea to buy a copy of that marriage cert to establish his marital status at that time.
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I wonder whether the children who came out to South Africa were perhaps Geoffrey's nieces. He would have been 16 when the first one was born. Although possible that it was his child I would have thought that the children would have stayed with their mother.
If so, do you have any idea of the names of his brothers?
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On the 1st marriage certificate in 1947 she declares her age as 19, on her land army registration she declares her age as 17 with DOB of 19/1/1928.
Her daughter doesn’t know how and why she left and only knows very little of her 2nd marriage only she left for South Africa alone ? She’s hoping that she made a new life in SA and there’s family there ?
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I have found what appears to be their immigration papers. Unfortunately these are not online and would require a researcher to obtain them from the Cape Town archives. I am not sure what details would be on them, but would think it would be worth getting them.
DEPOT KAB
SOURCE PIO
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 1833
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 80728E
PART 1
DESCRIPTION IMMIGRATION PAPERS. MR. AND MRS. GB BAIRD.
STARTING 1956
ENDING 1956
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Managed to resize her paperwork.
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I have put up a request on the South African Genealogical facebook page in the hopes that someone could help.
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MR. AND MRS. GB BAIRD.
He was Geoffrey Graham
The 1953 emigration was clearly somebody from Scotland as the address was Peterhead Aberdeen. Scotlands People has a birth in 1947 Peterhead matching one of the childrens entries
Both Geoffrey & his brother were born in Lancashire
George B Baird aged 25 address 3 Stirling Drive Glasgow left Liverpool for Capetown 6.8.1953 occ Government servant
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A Geoffrey G Baird married in 1959 in Kent. This birth matches his death birthdate
March qtr 1929 Geoffrey G Baird mmn Soper Barton on Irwell 8c 845
Death
Geoffrey Graham Baird b 10.3.1929 died 1994 Bexley
That shortens his return to between 1953-1959
Carole's last post about the passengers to SA suggests it's going to be important to get Geoffrey G Baird's second marriage certificate (provided above by Carole earlier) to see what his status was at the time - divorced, widowed?
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There are a number of things here that I am dubious about.
We know that Ethel Quin married twice and we know that the child from her first marriage was brought up separately
Neither of her marriage certs show a fathers name and there is no birth reg for an Ethel Quin/Quinn matching a birthdate of January 1928 which suggests she was either not born in England or Wales or was born under another surname
She remarried in 1952 but we have no documentary proof that they went to SA - either together or separately.
In 1959 second husband Geoffrey Graham Baird married in Kent and died there in 1994
So we only have a 6yr time span between the 1952 marriage and the 1959 (Late 1952 - early 1959)
There are no outgoing/incoming passenger records for either Geoffrey or Ethel to SA.
My gut feeling is that the South Africa emigration was perhaps a convenient "tale" within the family as her daughter was only 5yrs old at the time of the remarriage. It may have explained her mothers failure to visit - though not her failure to write
If the 1959 marriage cert shows Geoffrey was a widower - then that would explain the lack of communication
If there is no trace of a divorce in SA - was there one in England?
EDIT
James Leslie Baird born 1927 - brother of Geoffrey - married in Norfolk in 1953 & died in Norfolk in 1994.
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I agree with Carole's summary.
Have just looked at the Salford address (from the Land Army details) in the 1939 Register. I appreciate that is 6 years ahead of Ethel's Land Army enlistment aged 17 in 1945.
1 Shirley Ave, Salford.
The occupants are Henry and Elsie Robinson (born 30/8/1901; 12/5/1903 respectively), with Selina Fabrell (born 14/4/1872), shown as married.
One redacted entry.
is this a red herring or could the redacted entry be Ethel (?)Quin
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There are the possible immigration papers in Cape Town for them (as posted previously). Correct initials and date frame. Think it might be worth getting them.
My post on the South African site has thrown up (from England) a Mary Ethel Quinn with the same date of birth. He is emailing me the paperwork to look at.
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Selina is Farrell but the birthyear of the redacted entry is just visible - 1935
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Nothing on freebmd for a Mary Ethel Quin/Quinn in March qtr 1928
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Selina is Farrell but the birthyear of the redacted entry is just visible - 1935
Sorry, should have looked more closely, you are right on both counts.
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A correction - it was Mary E Quinn (double n) born 19/1/1929 and living at 57 Rothwell Street, Bolton, Lancashire with John W Yates and May E Quinn - parent, together with Norman 28/11/1927 and John R 7/7/1931. John and May were married, but he was obviously not the father of the three children.
Wonder if Ethel could have dropped her first name?
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Okay I am losing the plot! Mary was born on 19/1/1929 not 1928 - sorry!
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My personal opinion is that SA was a non-event - see reply 34
1959 marriage cert needed for Graham to check his marital status and a search for an English divorce between 1952-1959
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A correction - it was Mary E Quinn (double n) born 19/1/1929 and living at 57 Rothwell Street, Bolton, Lancashire with John W Yates and May E Quinn - parent, together with Norman 28/11/1927 and John R 7/7/1931. John and May were married, but he was obviously not the father of the three children.
Wonder if Ethel could have dropped her first name?
Carole got in just ahead of my posting - I agree, the Baird 2nd wedding cert is an important document to get.
With regard to the 1939 entry Nookie posted, yes the year of birth is different
Also, looking at the 1939 entry, I'm not convinced the children's surnames are Quinn - I think the enumerator has left all the surname entries blank (as he/she has further down the page) to indicate they are all Yates.
Added, yes - there are matching birth refs for all three children as YATES with MMN Pasquil(l)
Further added: and May E Yates married Leonard Quinn in 1953 in Bolton.
So we can def rule out that 1939 Register entry.
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Don't get your hopes up here because I'm not sure. Also -some names may have to be left out in case I have got the wrong marriage & they are still living
Graham Baird remarried March qtr 1959
In the same qtr & year - an E Q married a C R in Berkshire
Very few births for C R but found this birth & death
Births Dec 1928
Richardson Charlie mmn Richardson Houghton 10a 814
Charlie Richardson aged 69
Birth Date 13 Sep 1928
Reg Date Jun 1998 Slough Berkshire A29C 3211A 202
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Until we get the marriage/divorce papers I think we are going around in square circles ::)
However I am going to message Derek with the name of a very reasonable researcher who could get the immigration papers from the Cape Town archives for him should he so wish.
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Are they the papers referred to in your earlier reply?
IMMIGRATION PAPERS. MR. AND MRS. GB BAIRD.
STARTING 1956
ENDING 1956
I think Mr G B Baird could be either George Boden Baird or George Brunton Baird - both born Scotland 1928. My earlier reply shows a George B Baird aged 25 departing 1953 for SA - Government servant
Her second husband was Geoffrey Graham Baird - so G G not G B
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You are so right Carole. Been at this for too long today, and GB just looked so right at the time! Sorry all :'(
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Don't worry - I'm going cross eyed as well ;D
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Derek
Basically - we have eliminated some things but have not come up with any definitive answers re: Ethel's whereabouts after her marriage to Graham broke down :(
You will have read my reply 34 re SA but I don't know whether there is any hard & fast evidence to support emigration apart from the verbal story.
Whether or not SA happened is debatable but Graham was back in England & remarried by March qtr 1959
It's down now to a search for an English divorce between him & Ethel or a copy of his 1959 marriage cert to determine his marital status at that time
I've just posted a possible remarriage for Ethel - in the same year & quarter as Graham's remarriage so will leave that one with you to think about. - Reply 44 refers
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Her daughter says her mothers passenger number on the Braemar Castle Union Line to Cape Town was 417/13 and the ship sailed in 4/11/1953.
She’s trying get any further information she can from a cousin but isn’t holding out much hope.
Many thanks so far for all your help to date but I couldn’t find any birth certs anywhere including South Africa as she may have been from there hence the going back alone in 1953 . With a surname like Quin it’s probably of Irish origin ? I thought as it was an unusual spelling it would be an easy trace !
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We think Ethel travelled alone to Cape Town ?
In your first post you mention Ethel travelling to South Africa aboard the Braemar Castle in November 1953. The only Bairds I can see on this voyage are Mr R and Mrs M Baird travelling together and Mrs E Baird , 25 , travelling with two female children , aged 8 and 5 , from an address in Peterhead ( 10 Cairncatlo Road ). I've not named the children as they may well still be living.
I note that the Mrs E Baird and the 2 children show a final intended Country of Permanent Residence as South Rhodesia. Don't know if that makes any difference with the search in Africa
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Evlyne Baird, born in England, died in Zimbabwe in 1968. Zimbabwe was Southern Rhodesia.
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Her daughter says her mothers passenger number on the Braemar Castle Union Line to Cape Town was 417/13 and the ship sailed in 4/11/1953.
She’s trying get any further information she can from a cousin but isn’t holding out much hope.
Many thanks so far for all your help to date but I couldn’t find any birth certs anywhere including South Africa as she may have been from there hence the going back alone in 1953 . With a surname like Quin it’s probably of Irish origin ? I thought as it was an unusual spelling it would be an easy trace !
Does the daughter have proof of the passenger number? If so, please post it here.
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That date etc refers to the E Baird with 2 children - ruled out on earlier replies
I suspect whoever has been researching Ethel prior to this post being raised has fallen in the same trap and jumped to the wrong conclusions.
The family on the Braemar Castle were from Scotland - not England. See my earlier reply #32
The 1953 emigration was clearly somebody from Scotland as the address was Peterhead Aberdeen. Scotlands People has a birth in 1947 Peterhead matching one of the childrens entries
Given that Ethel's own daughter was born in 1947 - that child is hardly likely to be hers. Also unlikely she would have another child aged 8 if she was only born in 1928
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I agree totally with you Carole.
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Derek
I don't think we can help any further until you buy that 1959 marriage cert and/or look for an English divorce - see my reply #49
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To rule out that 1953 emigration once and for all
Marriage 1945 Peterhead - William Baird to Elizabeth Gedde Watson
The 1953 passenger list shows Mrs E Baird aged 25 - last address 10 Cairncatlo Rd Peterhead
9.6.1953 - Mr W Baird aged 27 left London for Capetown - last address 10 Cairncatlo Rd Peterhead
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Right. Lets start from the beginning.
As we cannot find Ethel's birth we would need:
1. Marriage certificate to Glenister - To check the witnesses.
2. Her divorce papers from Glenister to see where she was living (and with whom)
3. The marriage of Baird in 1959 to see if he was widowed or divorced.
4 If divorced - the divorce papers
5. The signature of the bride on the marriage certificate to Charle Richardson in 1959
5. If widowed then we know to look for her death
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I agree with both Carole and Nookie that the Braemar Castle entry is a red herring - information possibly found by someone else researching Ethel - and that Ethel Quin Baird may never have travelled to South Africa.
Possibly 'travelling abroad' was mentioned, and this grew into the South Africa story?
The info you mention, Nookie, will help a lot, surely.
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Reply 18 refers - witnesses to Glenister marriage were G Hornsey & A Randall
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On both marriage certificate the name is only shown as Ethel Quin and Ethel Glenister/ Quin and her daughter has no knowledge of where she was born.
She knows her mother and father divorced in 1948 and she remarried in 1952 and was told she left to go to SouthAfrica. I will rescan the marriage certs but apart from fathers name on 1st marriage certificate and names of witnesses and addresses at the time of the marriage there’s not a lot to proceed on.
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Father's name? Whose? Ethels dad?
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Father's name? Whose? Ethels dad?
I think that must be Glenister Senior.
Otherwise, in terms of clues to Ethel's early life, we do have the Salford address on the Land Army enlistment.
Carole hasn't been able to find a UK Ethel Quin birth, as she's said.
I have been wondering whether Ethel took the Quin name from a stepfather - so reviewing male Quin marriages over a lengthy period to see if there is an Ethel birth to the bride's surname at the right date. No success as yet, and of course if this thinking is right, Ethel's mother may not have married a Quin but merely lived with him.
And if she did take a stepfather's surname, why not name him on her marriages?
There are other scenarios, naturally.
But there are other places to look whilst we wait for the certificate for Geoffrey Baird's second marriage.
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Just to throw a spanner in the works. How do we know that the land army record is our Ethel Quin?
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She is shown as a 'Member of the Women's Land Army' in the Glenister marriage which is in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire.
Her address is shown as Fingest Hostel, Fingest, which is in Buckinghamshire, and the Land Army enlistment mentions 'Came to Bucks 11/6/45.
So it's a reasonable assumption, I suppose, given the comparative rarity of the name.
Was this Land Army record in the possession of Ethel's family, or downloaded from another source?
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I will ask her where she got the land army card .
Surely to register a marriage in England you must have to present by our birth certificate? The marriage certificates show her address at the time of the marriage and the name of the father and occupation. On her 2nd marriage no fathers name is shown which makes me think she was a) illegitimate or b) illegally adopted c) a neice who was born out of wedlock and brought up by Quin ? I asked the daughter this morning and she has no definite knowledge or proof of the South Africa emigration only what she was told and wrote down.
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I don't suppose if her daughter knows if Ethel was Irish - by which I mean had an Irish accent?
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That was a very quick divorce - do you have the right date? First marriage was June qtr 1947 and divorce 1948?
There is no documentary proof that Ethel went to SA - certainly not as Baird. It will be interesting if the Baird divorce was in England as a third marriage can't be ruled out which may have resulted in emigration under another surname.
What are your views on the 1959 Ethel Quin marriage I found?
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It’s all a bit of a mystery as the daughter says her mother’s name was definitely Ethel Quin which is quite unique spelling of that family name.
She visited the Salford address when she was trying to find her mums family and she spoke to a neighbour who said mr Quin was a teacher there. Unfortunately we dont have census records for this period. The daughter was born soon after the marriage date in 1947. I’ve tried various combinations of the first and last names and found a few possibles but not 100% direct link. Will keep searching tho.
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Derek
Your reply #13 appears to say that no fathers name is shown on either marriage cert hence my comment at reply #15.
However - your reply #66 could be read that a fathers name was shown on the 1947 cert but not the 1952 one?
Can you clarify please?
EDIT
IGNORE - see reply below from Igor - my mistake ::)
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Derek
Your reply #13 appears to say that no fathers name is shown on either marriage cert hence my comment at reply #16.
However - your reply #66 could be read that a fathers name was shown on the 1947 cert but not the 1952 one?
Can you clarify please?
Carole #30 has images of the certificates. The 1947 cert is a typewritten copy of the entry, and has the Glenister family details, but no father shown for Ethel Quin
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Aah - thanks Igor
Saw the 1952 one & Land Army record but iPad just shows a blank white sheet in between - until I scroll it over to the left!! Should have looked at it on my desk top with bigger screen
Apologies Derek - have edited my earlier reply
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The land army registration was obtained from UK Govt records. The daughter was born in mid October 1947. So Ethel was 4 months pregnant at the time of the marriage.
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Name: Ethel Wills
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar 1928
Registration District: Salford
Inferred County: Greater Manchester
Mother's Maiden Name: Quin
Volume Number: 8d
Page Number: 373
Aha!
Just did a search for Ethel born Jan 1928 in Salford and this popped up
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might be this one....
Marriage:
George Wills
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun 1922
Registration District: Salford
Inferred County: Lancashire
Spouse: Winifred Quin
Volume Number: 8d
Page Number: 97
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And if that marriage is right, details shown on Ancestry Manchester Cof E Marriages and Banns
George Wills 22, bachelor, occ Siver, 12 West Richmond St, father Edward Wills, Labourer
Winifred Quin 23, spinster, 12 West Richmond St, father William George Quin, fitter.
both bride and groom signed, witnesses Ernest Maitland, N. G(?) Quin, Florence Lowe.
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If this is the right marriage, Winifred Wills died in 1930 in Salford.
Wild theorising here, did George remarry and bring up Ethel, but she preferred to call herself by her mother's maiden name?
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Unless she was brought up by the Quin family and took their name ?
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Unless she was brought up by the Quin family and took their name ?
Yes, that's possible - just infilling the details of the marriage I found to see if I can confirm it's the right one.......
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That could be a big breakthrough Igor
1901 & 1911 entries for Winifred
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9GN-GPR
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1Q-8ZK
EDIT
No redacted entries in 1939 for the Quin's
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Again with the proviso this is the correct marriage, Winifred Quin and George Wills appear to have had three daughters - Winifred (1924) who appears I think on the 1939 as Winifred Wills with an Annie Wills aged 32; Ethel as we know; and Agnes who was born in 1929
Winifred Quin had a few siblings so it's possible that the three children were split up after their mother died and looked after by various parts of the family. Still investigating....
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Many thanks everyone I think we know (99.9%) that she took her mother’s maiden name (why?) to her land army registration and marriage to Glenister.
I found a birth for a Geoffrey G Baird born in London in 1952 but mother’s name was a Grant. There is another Geoffrey J Baird born in Ealing / London in 1953 and mother’s name shon as Baird. If the South Africa voyage in November 1953 is correct then she left another child with his father ?
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Many thanks everyone I think we know (99.9%) that she took her mother’s maiden name (why?) to her land army registration and marriage to Glenister.
I found a birth for a Geoffrey G Baird born in London in 1952 but mother’s name was a Grant. There is another Geoffrey J Baird born in Ealing / London in 1953 and mother’s name shon as Baird. If the South Africa voyage in November 1953 is correct then she left another child with his father ?
In reply #54 Carole has comprehensively ruled out the South African Baird family - who come from Peterhead, nr Aberdeen. And the ages of the children shown on that voyage don't work with Ethel's 1928 birth.
I think the South Africa story is a red herring - it would be interesting to find out exactly how it arose. It's certainly not unusual for a firm story to be told within a family history to be debunked when it's finally investigated.
I'm not saying Ethel didn't travel abroad - but not on the Braemar Castle in November 1953.
In terms of finding Ethel Wills - not having much joy, though now have quite a large Quin/Wills family tree I'm building. The Quin family had a lot of early deaths. No sign of Ethel being brought up with any of them so far as I can see, but maybe I need to go back another generation from Winifred Quin Wills' siblings.
Added: I think it's worthwhile getting the birth certificate for Ethel Wills as shown
Ethel Wills registered Mar qtr 1928 Salford RD
Mother's Maiden Name: Quin
Volume 8d p 373
Just to see if it is indeed the right one, and also if I've got the marriage right.
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It’s strange the the daughter has the name of a ship and passenger number but maybe she got a wrong link. I will ask her how and where she got the South Africa information from and has it been verified.
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It seems to me, Derek, that possibly someone else researching could have come across that very tempting Mrs E Baird reference on the passenger list of the Braemar Castle, and has tried to attach it to Ethel.
Obviously Ethel's daughter was very young when her parents split - it does sound as if it might have been a hasty wedding - and potentially the Glenister family didn't think much of Ethel Quin.
Difficult to gauge what did go on then - many examples of families trying to 'protect' children by telling stories which explained things in a kind way, rather than with the actual truth.
Ethel was very young indeed when she had her daughter, after all. Sad on both sides.
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And further to add I have now explored the Wills, Quin and associated families that I found from the marriage I quoted.
I've not tracked down Ethel anywhere, called any other surname, in the 1939 as yet.
I obviously have a lot of details, but not worth going into until/unless the birth certificate does reflect a 19/1/1928 birth for Ethel Wills, which might confirm that she IS Ethel Quin.
Just one other point for Derek, who asked whether a birth certificate would need to be produced for a marriage - the answer is no. The Registrar asks you to tell the truth, and believes what you say.
On the Glenister marriage, Ethel would have had to say that she had her parents' permission to marry as she was under age.
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Derek
Please read replies #54 & 57. There is absolutely no way Ethel is the passenger on the Braemar Castle
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A quick summary of things to be considered
Purchase of 1959 marriage cert for Geoffrey to check his marital status
March qtr 1959 Dartford 5b 1081
A search for an English divorce for Geoffrey & Ethel between 1953-1959
Have a look at the March qtr 1959 marriage for Ethel Quin as detailed in my reply #44
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Derek -
I am sending a DM to you following some research Carole and I have done which relates to an Ancestry tree by a direct relative of the Wills family in Salford.
You will recall we theorised that Ethel Wills, MMN Quin, might possibly be Ethel Quin.
Please keep us posted with the results of certificates etc you order.
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I am trying to trace family of Ethel Quin who was born in Salford on 19th January 1928. Think her father was George Wills and mother was Winifred Quin (1899 to 1930). They married in 1922 and had 3 children, Winifred bron 1924, Ethel born 1928 and Agnes born 1929. As her mother died in 1930 we think she was brought up by a member of the Quin family in the Salford area.
On 3rd may 1945 she joined the Land Army and gave her name as Ethel Quin and not Wills, and was relocated to Buckinghamshire.
On 3rd May 1947 she married Victor Charles Lewis Glenister in Wycombe Bucks and had a daughter born on 10th October 1947. They divorced in 1948 and she left the daughter with her husband and his family.
On 18th october 1952 she married Geoffrey Graham Baird in Reading berks and in 1959 she married Charlie Richardson in Windsor.
Any help in tracing family memebrs would be appreciated
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Continuation of - Threads merged.
Since these family members are likely to be still-living, you have a problem.
You should try looking for candidate for the family who might have rehomed her in the 1939 register?
It's not something that we could do on the forums.
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I have emailedthe daughter asking her to obtain copies of the marriage to Charlie Richardson and the divorce papers fror the marriage to Geoffrey Baird. I have reposted the info on the Lancashire forum in the hope that some of the Wills family can be traced. I have also contacted the Leonard family member on Ancesrty to see if he is of the same family line.
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Just to add I have researched the Wills and Quin families extensively on behalf of this search (creating a working document family tree on Ancestry in the process), and have not as yet found Ethel Wills (or Quin) on the 1939 register - crucial, as Pauline indeed suggests - so before anyone starts lots of additional research, please feel free to ask me (by DM?) what has already been found.
Added: I've just looked at my Ancestry research tree on this particular topic which contains 84 people and more than 230 records. I'm definitely not infallible, but we don't want people going over all this ground again.
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This post(now merged) is somewhat premature given your reply today on the previous thread which runs to 11 pages
It would be best to wait until both 1959 marriage certs are obtained. It is misleading to say she married Charlie Richardson in 1959 as it has not been proved whether it is the right marriage. I only gave it as a possibility.
Until Geoffrey's 1959 marriage cert is received you have no proof of whether he was a widower or divorcee at that time.
Until the Ethel Wills birth cert is received to compare actual birthdates you have no proof that Ethel Quin was actually Ethel Wills
Until those certificates detailed in your previous thread have been obtained it is unwise to make assumptions which may involve unconnected families
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I should have added, also, that in addition to the other information you're requesting, Derek, it would be helpful to get the Ethel Wills birth certificate - I provided the ref on the other thread - to see if we can get any confirmation of the birth date quoted on the Land Army enlistment details.
Otherwise the link between Wills and Quin remains very tenuous.
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My reply #15 refers. Just to "tie things up" There is a Crookell/Kelsall marriage - no idea why I didn't see it ::)
Ethel Kelsall married George Harold Crookell Dec qtr 1900 Salford 8d 125
George died Dec qtr 1933 aged 54
Ethel Crookell then married Charles Quin in 1937
Conclusion is the same - not connected to your Ethel who was b 1928. No Ethel Crookell or Kelsall birth in 1928
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Just to say , I've created a (currently) 82 person >230 record (private) Ancestry research tree on this subject.
I'm happy to share this with anyone to avoid time-consuming duplication of searching.
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That’s why I’m sharing on the Lancashire forum in case someone has any knowledge of the Wills side. Like you guys I’ve searched every genealogy site to no avail. I’ve emailed the daughter to see if she wishes to obtain the relevant BMD certificates and no reply so far.
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It's all a wild goose chase until those certificates are obtained.
Notwithstanding the facts that its been looked at up, down and sideways on the previous thread.
If something was there to be discovered it would have happened already.
Pauline
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I’m sharing on the Lancashire forum in case someone has any knowledge of the Wills side
If you wish to move the topic to a different board we can simply move the topic for you, it best not to duplicate posts.
Regards
Sarah
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It's all a wild goose chase until those certificates are obtained.
Notwithstanding the facts that its been looked at up, down and sideways on the previous thread.
If something was there to be discovered it would have happened already.
Pauline
You are absolutely right, Pauline.
The trouble is, Derek, that in making another post you are risking people spending a lot of time researching things that have already been researched.
And if we can't prove Ethel Wills is YOUR (or your contact's) Ethel Quin, it's even more wasted time going over ground that's already been covered.
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Just to say , I've created a (currently) 82 person >230 record (private) Ancestry research tree on this subject.
Does it include the baptism of Ethel Wills? You were (slightly!) wondering if you had the right parents
29 January 1928, St Clement Salford
Abode 111 Robert Hall Street
Info from Lancashire OPC
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Just to say , I've created a (currently) 82 person >230 record (private) Ancestry research tree on this subject.
Does it include the baptism of Ethel Wills? You were (slightly!) wondering if you had the right parents
29 January 1928, St Clement Salford
Abode 111 Robert Hall Street
Info from Lancashire OPC
Thank you - I'll add that!!
Robert Hall Street is a very familiar address for the family.
Added - it doesn't mention the actual date of birth does it?????
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Hi
It's not on there no.
Siblings baptisms?
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
Someone with the same GRO page ref as Ethel (five in all)
Leonard W Higgins
He may have died in Manchester in 1999, d-o-b 18 Jan 1928
Could be a good omen!
John
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Hi
It's not on there no.
Siblings baptisms?
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
Someone with the same GRO page ref as Ethel (five in all)
Leonard W Higgins
He may have died in Manchester in 1999, d-o-b 18 Jan 1928
Could be a good omen!
John
oh a very cunning sideways move there, Jon, to check the possible dob ahead of certificate......I'll make a note of that technique. ;)
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It has many limitations!
You usually get a few with similar birth dates on the same page.
Generally I think parents didn't rush down to the register office. But there will always be the exceptions who did it double quick, or were a bit late.
That baptism date is quite promising, at least it isn't before the hoped for date of birth!
Well done and good luck
John
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On 3rd May 1947 she married Victor Charles Lewis Glenister in Wycombe Bucks and had a daughter born on 10th October 1947. They divorced in 1948 and she left the daughter with her husband and his family.
Sorry, not going to read through 11 pages. I did start, too many conflicting statements.
I thought that in the 1940's you could not get a divorce after less than 2 years marriage, do not know if this was discussed in the 11 pages?
Probably does not make any difference to the outcome, just interested.
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I too have read all of the posts on all the boards. Until certificate is purchased this line of enquiry is a waste of time. Personally I think she may have changed her name yet again in 1949 as per an article in the London gazette dated 3.12.1949 from Ethel Wills to Ethel Day
John
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On 3rd May 1947 she married Victor Charles Lewis Glenister in Wycombe Bucks and had a daughter born on 10th October 1947. They divorced in 1948 and she left the daughter with her husband and his family.
Sorry, not going to read through 11 pages. I did start, too many conflicting statements.
I thought that in the 1940's you could not get a divorce after less than 2 years marriage, do not know if this was discussed in the 11 pages?
Probably does not make any difference to the outcome, just interested.
Yes Pat - the divorce timing was raised by CaroleW.
Not sure if John’s change of name (great find!) has anything to do with it as - of course - without the Ethel Wills birth cert we cannot know if she and Ethel Quin might be the same person.
Documents required before anything further.
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I asked the moderator to lock this thread yesterday as any replies or queries really need to be posted on the original thread for continuity. This post now needs to be merged with it.
Threads now merged.
There are far too many unanswered questions at the moment for any conclusions to be drawn. Until the certs listed above in reply #3 are received we are just going round in circles.
The only definite things we know - there was a marriage in 1947 which produced a daughter - still living.
There was a divorce - in one of my replies I express doubt this was in 1948 as the marriage was only mid-1947
There was a remarriage in 1952 to Geoffrey Baird
Geoffrey remarried in 1959 but we don't know his marital status at that time hence the need for his marriage cert
Emigration to SA has been ruled out.
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Some additional info without mentioning any names as there may be living persons.
Geoffrey Graham Baird's second wife in 1959 was previously married and had a daughter from her first marriage
Her 1959 marriage to Geoffrey did not last as she again remarried in 1967
However - before the 1959 marriage to Geoffrey - 2 children were born as Baird. First child died but second child is presumably still alive.
Given the date of the first birth - Ethel and Geoffrey separated around 1956
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Reply to JonW65, I checked this website and some of the Wills family are shown on there however the 3rd daughter Agnes is recorded as Mills and not Wills. Same parents but error on website. I am trying to check for other typos / spelling errors hopefully I can sort this mystery out as she doesnt seem to have her birth been registered anywhere ?
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Derek
Until the Ethel Wills birth cert is obtained and birthdate checked against the Land Army record for Ethel Quin - we do not know if Ethel Quin & Ethel Wills are one and the same person.
You need to wait until all 3 of the certificates mentioned previously are obtained before making any further enquiries as it could cause a lot of unneccessary confusion
Have the 3 certs been applied for?
Births March qtr 1928
Wills Ethel mmn Quin Salford 8d 373
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CaroleW i have sent the relevant info the the daughter to she if she has applied, but some registry places are closed due to limited staff onsite. The DOB (19/1/28) for Ethel Wills ties in as does the baptism records. I have sent a request on ancestry to a person who has Winifred Wills on his tree to see if he has any info he can share.
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The DOB (19/1/28) for Ethel Wills
I don't see any reply that actually confirms that Ethel Wills birthdate was 19.1.1928. No birthdate on the baptismal record ???
The SA emigration story turned out to be a wild goose chase so you really need to be absolutely sure of your facts this time
EDIT
Referring to Carol's reply below - here's the link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
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CaroleW i have sent the relevant info the the daughter to she if she has applied, but some registry places are closed due to limited staff onsite. The DOB (19/1/28) for Ethel Wills ties in as does the baptism records. I have sent a request on ancestry to a person who has Winifred Wills on his tree to see if he has any info he can share.
Order certs via the official GRO site. I ordered a marriage one last Saturday with a despatch date of 1st October and received it today.
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The DOB (19/1/28) for Ethel Wills
I don't see any reply that actually confirms that Ethel Wills birthdate was 19.1.1928. No birthdate on the baptismal record ???
The SA emigration story turned out to be a wild goose chase so you really need to be absolutely sure of your facts this time
EDIT
Referring to Carol's reply below - here's the link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
I cannot emphasise more, along with the other posters here, that the Ethel Wills = Ethel Quin theory is just that, a completely hypothetical suggestion. Until we get a birth certificate for Ethel Wills which confirms the birthdate of 19/1/28 shown on the Land Army document.
If, in my extensive construction of a family tree for the Wills/Quin family I had found any indication that Ethel Wills could be definitely connected to Ethel Quin, I would have said.
But Ethel Wills is not so far as I can see in the 1939 (as a possible dob confirmation), and so far all we have is a potential matching birth quarter, month of baptism (not dob), and mother's maiden name, together with the Salford connection from the Land Army record.
I have myself previously attached great weight to theories which in the end have turned out to be completely wrong.
I appreciate that Ethel Quin's daughter is in hospital, but it is possible to use the GRO site to obtain both birth and marriage certificates - they are definitely operating, as has been said - very simply.
Please do come back when these are received so that we can again see what we can DEFINITELY prove rather than hypothesise.
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Reply to JonW65, I checked this website and some of the Wills family are shown on there however the 3rd daughter Agnes is recorded as Mills and not Wills. Same parents but error on website. I am trying to check for other typos / spelling errors hopefully I can sort this mystery out as she doesnt seem to have her birth been registered anywhere ?
Agnes Wills
Reg Date
10/1929
Reg Qtr Oct-Nov-Dec
Reg district Salford
Greater Manchester
Mother's Maiden Name Quin
Vol No 8d
Page number 374
Agnes' birth registered here
However, so far as I can see, Agnes does not appear on records anywhere else.
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A Wills tree on Ancestry refers to Iris Wills as a child of George & Winifred Wills (nee Quin) - wonder if this is Agnes. No birthdate - just birth location as Salford. No mention of Ethel on the tree
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A Wills tree on Ancestry refers to Iris Wills as a child of George & Winifred Wills (nee Quin) - wonder if this is Agnes. No birthdate - just birth location as Salford. No mention of Ethel on the tree
Yes, Carole - I also saw, and wondered whether a) Agnes liked to be called Iris or b) whether the information came from the person's mother (who'd died when he was relatively young) and was a mishearing of what had been said: Agnes-Iris
However, I've not been able to find an Iris Wills either!!! >:(
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I had messaged the Baird tree owner who was unaware of the 1952 marriage so I have given him the link to this post with the page and reply number so he can view the actual cert.
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Hi,
My maternal grandmother was Nora Margaret Baird, born 1930, younger sister of James Leslie and Geoffrey Graham Baird. She passed away in 2017. James and Geoffrey both settled and died in Kent, having grown up in the East End of London/Bexleyheath area of Kent. The family were bombed seven times during WWII, there is an article from c1942 in the Sunday Pictorial newspaper detailing the story of their harrowing experience as one of Britain's most bombed families.
Their father James Brodie Baird hailed from Glasgow and served in WWI with his twin, George, who died 28 Septemnber 1918, a day after being shot in the head in the field of battle with the Machine Gun Corps. James returned home to Glasgow and was told by his family that he should have died, not his brother, as he had goaded him into joining him in signing up underage for military service. James turned his back on Scotland and went on the road as a music hall entertainer. He met Audrey Phillis Katherine Soper at a Manchester boarding house where she was lodging while serving a millinery apprenticeship. She was granddaughter of Samuel Henry Soper, Mayor of Brighton in 1890/91. Samuel had died suddenly, leaving a fortune and the family business to his son, Samuel, Snr., Audrey's father, who gambled everything away and died bankrupt in 1909. Audrey's mother was German, of Polish descent, her family having moved to England in the 1870s.
My grandmother was not close to her brothers in adulthood, I never met them. She married my grandfather in London after WWII. He was from Liverpool, where they moved in 1954, my parents met and married and I was born in 1979. I have contact with James Leslie Baird's children in Kent and their extended families. Geoffrey and second wife Molley Gaylor adopted a daughter around 1960, I have emailed her and will get back to you with anything I find out.
I have never heard anything of a marriage to an Ethel Quin, my grandmother might have known about it, but had little desire to ever talk about her brothers' lives. I have never even seen a photograph of either of them. I will happily ask James' family if they ever knew anything of Geoffrey's earlier life and report back, but the South African stories sound unlikely to me.
Hope this helps, best regards.
Jamie Yates
Liverpool, England
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* typos updated in previous post.
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I've just had confirmation from a son of James Leslie Baird that Geoffrey and Ethel were divorced around 1956/57. James' wife is still alive and well and I should be hearing from her shortly with a few more details, she was at Geoff and Ethel's wedding in 1952 where James was best man.
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Hi Jamie
Thanks for responding. I presume you have now seen the 1952 marriage cert I mentioned in my message?
If any of Geoffrey's family can throw any light on Ethel it would be great.
To save you wading through the many pages on this post we are currently waiting for 2 certificates.
One is a 1928 birth cert for an Ethel Wills. There is a possibility that Ethel Quin was actually born as Ethel Wills but took her mothers maiden name of Quin in later life. Ethel gave a birthdate when she enlisted in the Land Army so the Ethel Wills birth cert is needed for comparison
Secondly - there is an Ethel Quin marriage to a Charlie Richardsdon in the same year and qtr that Geoffrey married Molley - March qtr 1959 so that marriage cert is awaited. There may be no connection but Charlie was also born 1928
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Welcome to Jamie from me, too - and thank you for your very interesting details about your family history. I had seen the newspaper articles about the bombing of the Baird family, which were remarkable.
This has been an interesting search, and we await the certificates Carole mentions to see if we are able to take it further.
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Jamie, many thnaks for this info which I have passed onto Ethel's daughter from her 1st marriage. She is still trying to get info from her cousin and aunt re Ethels past. Ive asked her to ask them if she had accent so we can try to narrow down where she came from. Ive alos asked if she ever applied for her mothers birth certificate and also the other certificates that we require to help determine Ethels past life. Hopefully I can add some more info soon.
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Wedding photo of Ethel and Geoffrey 1952.
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Great picture, Derek
I'm struck by the number of guests - many of whom look like family.
Geoffrey had siblings and other family, but are some of these people Ethel's family?
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Hello all,
Just spoken to James Leslie Baird's grandson. He has spoken to his mother, who is in the photograph Derek has shared, along with my grandmother, her brothers and parents. I would really love a good quality scan of this picture if at all possible, please.
The update is that not long after divorcing Geoff Baird circa 1957, Ethel emigrated from living in the Kent area to AUSTRALIA. No knowledge of another marriage but I will ask my relative to double check on this with the name Charlie Richardson. They were a close knit community back then in the Bexleyheath area, so his name might ring a bell.
Hope this helps, perhaps check some Australian shipping information?
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Wedding photo of Ethel and Geoffrey 1952.
Presuming that is Ethel front left with Geoff behind her, then at the back in the middle James Leslie Baird's wife, with James to her left, then my grandmother Peggy Yates (nee Baird). Front centre, Geoff's parents James Brodie Baird and Audrey Phillis Katherine Baird (nee Soper), the only people I can't confidently identify are the gentleman far right and the young girl at the front.
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Wedding photo of Ethel and Geoffrey 1952.
Presuming that is Ethel front left with Geoff behind her, then at the back in the middle James Leslie Baird's wife, with James to her left, then my grandmother Peggy Yates (nee Baird). Front centre, Geoff's parents James Brodie Baird and Audrey Phillis Katherine Baird (nee Soper), the only people I can't confidently identify are the gentleman far right and the young girl at the front.
I will send this to my relatives in Kent to confirm anything else, if it was possible to get a better quality image, please, that would help, as the lady in the photo is quite elderly and her eyesight isn't great.
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Sorry, Jamie - if this is Ethel and Geoff's wedding, surely they are in the centre of the shot?
Ethel in the front in the pale suit, holding a handbag and what looks like a white horseshoe, with Geoff to the left (as you look at the photo).
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying.
Derek - if we post a link to the Photo Board here, someone will have a go at sharpening the picture for us. I can do this if you're happy.
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Wedding photo of Ethel and Geoffrey 1952.
Apologies, I hadn't opened the photo up and could only see the left hand side of it! I'll get back to you with as many names as possible.
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Sorry, Jamie - if this is Ethel and Geoff's wedding, surely they are in the centre of the shot?
Ethel in the front in the pale suit, holding a handbag and what looks like a white horseshoe, with Geoff to the left (as you look at the photo).
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying.
Derek - if we post a link to the Photo Board here, someone will have a go at sharpening the picture for us. I can do this if you're happy.
Sorry, just posted to this effect, only the left half the image was showing on screen, I thought it had been cut in half. I've downloaded and can now see full picture!
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Sorry, Jamie - if this is Ethel and Geoff's wedding, surely they are in the centre of the shot?
Ethel in the front in the pale suit, holding a handbag and what looks like a white horseshoe, with Geoff to the left (as you look at the photo).
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying.
Derek - if we post a link to the Photo Board here, someone will have a go at sharpening the picture for us. I can do this if you're happy.
Sorry, just posted to this effect, only the left half the image was showing on screen, I thought it had been cut in half. I've downloaded and can now see full picture!
That's been done many a time on here! No worries! ;) ;D
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A guess, based on old family pictures. but I think the couple to extreme left might be a Soper cousin and his wife. Otherwise, James and wife, my Nanna, and James and Audrey Baird as stated.
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Hello all,
Just spoken to James Leslie Baird's grandson. He has spoken to his mother, who is in the photograph Derek has shared, along with my grandmother, her brothers and parents. I would really love a good quality scan of this picture if at all possible, please.
The update is that not long after divorcing Geoff Baird circa 1957, Ethel emigrated from living in the Kent area to AUSTRALIA. No knowledge of another marriage but I will ask my relative to double check on this with the name Charlie Richardson. They were a close knit community back then in the Bexleyheath area, so his name might ring a bell.
Hope this helps, perhaps check some Australian shipping information?
Just double checked re: Charlie Richardson/1959 marriage and the story is that Ethel basically upped sticks very soon after divorcing Geoff and emigrated. Of course I'd still go ahead with checking the certificate, perhaps she told people she was leaving and didn't, perhaps she came back. But the story from a friend and contemporary is that she left the UK soon after her marriage to Geoff Baird ended.
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Any luck finding links to Australia, Derek?
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Jamie I haven’t found any trace of her in Australia under her married names ( Richardson / Baird ) or maiden name. Ancestry doesn’t have anything listed on any ships heading there in 1956 onwards. I will keep looking as something will turn up sometime / somewhere. We may have to wait until 1921 census is published to try and trace the Wills or Quin family in Salford.
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Jamie I haven’t found any trace of her in Australia under her married names ( Richardson / Baird ) or maiden name. Ancestry doesn’t have anything listed on any ships heading there in 1956 onwards. I will keep looking as something will turn up sometime / somewhere. We may have to wait until 1921 census is published to try and trace the Wills or Quin family in Salford.
As previously mentioned, in course of helping with this research, I have completed a relatively large Salford Wills/Quin family tree which takes most of the people involved to the 1939 census and sometimes beyond. I have also offered to share my researches with you, Derek.
I'm not quite sure what the 1921 census will add to that at the moment?
Have we any news about the birth certificate for Ethel Quin in Salford where I think we were waiting to see if the birthdate matched that quoted on the Land Army?
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As Winifred Quin & George Wills only married in 1922 plus the fact that Ethel wasn’t born until 1928 I also fail to see how the 1921 census will help ???
Far more relevant in solving this issue is obtaining the birth cert and Richardson marriage cert - the most important being the birth cert. Your reply dated 6th Oct refers - any response?
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I was hoping the 1921 census would show us who is living at the address that Ethel has given on her land army registration. I have emailed the daughter and given her all the information we have so she can apply for relevant BMD certificates from national records but no word back to date. I’ve tried searching Salford School records as Ethel Quin / Wills must have gone to school from 1933, but again nothing so far.
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My personal opinion is that until the birth cert and Richardson marriage cert are purchased any further research by yourself or Rootschat members is pointless.
I have to say I am surprised the daughter has not yet confirmed whether they have been applied for given the vast amount of effort which has gone into this request.
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I have repeatedly requested her to obtain the certificates that may resolve the mystery. She told me yesterday that she obtained the marriage certificates to Glenister and Baird spouses directly from High Wycombe Register Office years ago when she started her own search. This was way before Ancestry etc websites were available. She thinks she was told at the time Ethel was adopted.
Either she was born Ethel Wills and was adopted later by Quin family or was illegitimate and adopted by Quin family as a baby.
I’m unsure if adoption records can released to anyone other then immediate party concerned ?.
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The birth certificate needs to be obtained before you attempt anything to do with adoption.
Who does she believe told her about the adoption?
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There's no proof that there ever was an adoption is there?
If she's not minded to provide the marriage certs, then let this lie.
Pauline
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Derek - is she aware that she can obtain a PDF of the Salford Ethel Quin birth certificate from the GRO very quickly at a very reasonable cost?
Exactly as Pauline says, there is absolutely no need to add in further complications. It simply confuses matters and wastes time.
Added: if you require guidance on how to obtain the birth cert please just ask, although it is clear what to do from the instructions on the GRO site, and I provided the details of location/quarter/vol and page number earlier in the thread. Will repeat if required.
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We have already disproved the "emigration to South Africa" story haven't we? Then came the "emigration to Australia"
There has been no previous mention of adoption so I don't think any of us are prepared to spend any more time on unproven "stories"
For a total expenditure of £18 on 2 certificates she could prove or disprove what has been found so far. If she is not prepared to do so then that is her choice
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Good luck, Derek.
You're doing your best and haven't forced anyone to go to any lengths to help you. For my part it was a pleasure to help out in as much as I was able to via my family connection and unearthing of the "emigration to Australia" recollection, sorry I can't provide any documentary evidence. Maybe this one just isn't meant to be, but all the best with it. It'll really be something if you can find out what became of Ethel.
I have repeatedly requested her to obtain the certificates that may resolve the mystery. She told me yesterday that she obtained the marriage certificates to Glenister and Baird spouses directly from High Wycombe Register Office years ago when she started her own search. This was way before Ancestry etc websites were available. She thinks she was told at the time Ethel was adopted.
Either she was born Ethel Wills and was adopted later by Quin family or was illegitimate and adopted by Quin family as a baby.
I’m unsure if adoption records can released to anyone other then immediate party concerned ?.
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Good luck, Derek.
You're doing your best and haven't forced anyone to go to any lengths to help you. For my part it was a pleasure to help out in as much as I was able to via my family connection and unearthing of the "emigration to Australia" recollection, sorry I can't provide any documentary evidence. Maybe this one just isn't meant to be, but all the best with it. It'll really be something if you can find out what became of Ethel.
Jamie, nobody here is saying they have been 'forced to go to any lengths to help' Derek, or the daughter of Ethel Quin, who's trying to find out about her mother.
In posting on Rootschat, Derek has asked people here to help him, and that's what we've been trying to do.
I'm quite clear that finding out about the Wills/MMN Quin birth was an effort to see if we could solve the puzzle. It was my choice to research a tree to see if any answers would be produced from that, and indeed to offer to share the results, which Derek's not felt the need to take up.
And in helping Derek (and hopefully Ethel's daughter), we have made the most constructive suggestions we can.
I don't count myself among them, but there are very experienced researchers here who give up their time freely to answer queries. In order to make the best use of time, they will ask relevant questions and also say what research is best to do, and what is not.
We're trying to help, and that is what Derek has asked us to do by posting here.
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Jamie
Everybody who has been involved in this post has pulled out all the stops to try & get a resolution to the whereabouts and background of Ethel. We all love a challenge ;D
A lot of time was spent discounting the incorrect information given about her emigrating to SA which appears to have been caused by poor research.
Igor's birth registration find is the only real possibility but until that birth cert is purchased and the actual birthdate compared to the one on the Land Army record - nobody will ever know for sure whether she was born as Ethel Wills. Cost is £7 for a pdf copy
Similarly - the 1959 marriage cert can help prove or disprove if she married for a third time. It may prove to be a red herring but it's a bit coincidental that there is a marriage for an Ethel Quin in the same year & qtr her ex husband re-marries. Cost is £11 to buy that cert
Total outlay £18. A bargain if it helps solve all or part of the mystery
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I must thank everybody for their help. I’m sorry that the daughter hasn’t tried to obtain what has been asked for. I appreciate all the help and maybe we can uncover the mystery of Ethel. The daughter was told that her mum had remarried then left on her own to go to South Africa, which we now know was incorrect. I will keep persuading the daughter to seek the required birth and marriage certificates and also apply for any adoption records (?) however Ethel might still be alive (aged 92) so the records for any adoption might not be released. Unfortunately the daughter lives in Spain so she is unable to visit in person at the moment. Again thanks to everyone for their dedication, help and support.
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I think the adoption angle would be a total waste of time & effort given the very limited info known. Where has that suggestion come from?
Apart from her name & the Land Army record -what info do you have to start an adoption search? At the moment you don't even know for sure where she was born.
Why is the daughter so reluctant to purchase the Wills birth cert?
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I'm not trying to start an argument here, although I will admit to feeling a little defensive on Derek's behalf as to the tone of one or two messages directed towards him on this thread. He's clearly just trying to help a friend.
I am a pretty experienced researcher myself as it happens, for whatever that is worth. I fully appreciate that people have made a lot of effort to lend a hand. I just feel sometimes a little more care could be taken in wording and tone of messages which can read as somewhat cold, dismissive or patronising. Wrong of me to assume anyone else might feel that, but it's just my opinion.
I felt this was the case in the manner in which I was privately contacted via ancestry email per my possible ability to help with the case and tried as politely as possible to communicate the fact in a private reply to which I have had no response. Time, energy, can come at a cost. Manners cost nothing.
Best regards.
Good luck, Derek.
You're doing your best and haven't forced anyone to go to any lengths to help you. For my part it was a pleasure to help out in as much as I was able to via my family connection and unearthing of the "emigration to Australia" recollection, sorry I can't provide any documentary evidence. Maybe this one just isn't meant to be, but all the best with it. It'll really be something if you can find out what became of Ethel.
Jamie, nobody here is saying they have been 'forced to go to any lengths to help' Derek, or the daughter of Ethel Quin, who's trying to find out about her mother.
In posting on Rootschat, Derek has asked people here to help him, and that's what we've been trying to do.
I'm quite clear that finding out about the Wills/MMN Quin birth was an effort to see if we could solve the puzzle. It was my choice to research a tree to see if any answers would be produced from that, and indeed to offer to share the results, which Derek's not felt the need to take up.
And in helping Derek (and hopefully Ethel's daughter), we have made the most constructive suggestions we can.
I don't count myself among them, but there are very experienced researchers here who give up their time freely to answer queries. In order to make the best use of time, they will ask relevant questions and also say what research is best to do, and what is not.
We're trying to help, and that is what Derek has asked us to do by posting here.
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Jamie
As an experienced researcher yourself, it would be interesting to hear your own thoughts on the advice & reasons given for the purchase of the Ethel Wills birth cert (reasons in earlier replies) & also the purchase of the 1959 marriage cert to Charlie Richardson.
Do you think they are necessary? If not - why not?
There is a Richardson tree on Ancestry & I contacted the owner to ask if he knew what became of Ethel after Charlie Richardson died. I never mentioned Geoffrey Baird in that message but in his reply he said he had not gone that far in his research & all he knew was she was Ethel Quin who "may have been previously married to a Geoffrey Baird"
Yes - we are all well aware that Derek is trying his best to help Ethel's daughter and any "tone" you sense is perhaps more directed to her than to Derek.
However - the seeming reluctance on the daughters part to purchase the certs & now the introduction of a "possible adoption" without any shred of proof has caused a lot of frustration in those of us who have tried to help.
The daughter is now 73yrs old but at the end of the day the decision is hers.
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Carole,
I am not arguing with any of the suggestions people have made on this thread (nor claiming the information I provided is of any more value for that matter). It is all sound advice and whether or not it has been acted upon is obviously beyond any of our control. If anyone wants to get frustrated that it has not been followed up on, then that is their issue.
My comments were regarding manners. A matter of opinion I suppose. I was somewhat taken aback to be told by you that there is "no birth" for a sister of Geoffrey Baird (I'm fairly sure my grandmother was born, as it happens), while being directed me to this thread and, by implication, requested to offer any information I might have, without once using the vaguest of pleasantries in your communication, even so much as a "please". I replied to you politely about this and you have never acknowledged my reply.
I don't care how much experience as a researcher anyone has, how much knowledge or expertise. There is no excuse for being rude or frosty, particularly when an amateur comes along asking for help.
I am 41 years of age, please feel free to judge me on what possible experience I can offer based on that figure, but in 20 years of genealogical research of my own and others' ancestry, I have generally found the genealogy community a wonderful, inclusive place to share stories and information. That said, I have occasionally encountered individuals who seem to think they own this subject, are somehow superior and can speak to people like ignorant school children.
---
Jamie
As an experienced researcher yourself, it would be interesting to hear your own thoughts on the advice & reasons given for the purchase of the Ethel Wills birth cert (reasons in earlier replies) & also the purchase of the 1959 marriage cert to Charlie Richardson.
Do you think they are necessary? If not - why not?
There is a Richardson tree on Ancestry & I contacted the owner to ask if he knew what became of Ethel after Charlie Richardson died. I never mentioned Geoffrey Baird in that message but in his reply he said he had not gone that far in his research & all he knew was she was Ethel Quin who "may have been previously married to a Geoffrey Baird"
Yes - we are all well aware that Derek is trying his best to help Ethel's daughter and any "tone" you sense is perhaps more directed to her than to Derek.
However - the seeming reluctance on the daughters part to purchase the certs & now the introduction of a "possible adoption" without any shred of proof has caused a lot of frustration in those of us who have tried to help.
The daughter is now 73yrs old but at the end of the day the decision is hers.
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Jamie
Please will you highlight where in this thread Carole told you that there was 'no birth' for your grandmother? I've read back through, and indeed Carole told you she appreciated your joining and summarised the findings to avoid your having to re-read the whole thread.
I can find nowhere here any lack of manners, indeed you have been welcomed and thanked and you and I had a jovial exchange where you'd not spotted the facility of moving across the photo you'd posted and I told you many people fell into this trap.
And as for your describing respondents here speaking to people 'like ignorant school children', I'm afraid I greatly resent that implication.
This is a wonderful site, and I have received enormous help here, as well as trying as best I can to answer other people's challenges, to sometimes great and often less helpful effect.
I'm happy to leave this enquiry to Derek to try and see if he can get the certificates we need to move forward, from Ethel's daughter. If not, so be it.
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I've read the thread many times, the comment mentioned was not made in the thread, it came in a message via Ancestry.com.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, we can all read different things into the way people communicate online. I'm not on a witch hunt to destroy anyone's character and this is indeed a wonderful site.
---
Jamie
Please will you highlight where in this thread Carole told you that there was 'no birth' for your grandmother? I've read back through, and indeed Carole told you she appreciated your joining and summarised the findings to avoid your having to re-read the whole thread.
I can find nowhere here any lack of manners, indeed you have been welcomed and thanked and you and I had a jovial exchange where you'd not spotted the facility of moving across the photo you'd posted and I told you many people fell into this trap.
And as for your describing respondents here speaking to people 'like ignorant school children', I'm afraid I greatly resent that implication.
This is a wonderful site, and I have received enormous help here, as well as trying as best I can to answer other people's challenges, to sometimes great and often less helpful effect.
I'm happy to leave this enquiry to Derek to try and see if he can get the certificates we need to move forward, from Ethel's daughter. If not, so be it.
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Jamie -- Just realised I had sent 3 messages to you so have now added the first. Your reply to my first said you were unaware of the marriage
I am copying in my 3 Ancestry messages to you so all readers of this post can make their own judgement on your allegations
Hi
Re Geoffrey Graham Baird. Are you aware that he was previously married in 1952 to Ethel Glenister previously Quin?
Cheers
Carole
Hi Jamie
Geoffrey Graham Baird was born 1929 - mothers maiden name Soper. His parents only married in 1926 and the only Baird/Soper birth apart from Geoffrey is his brother James b 1927. There is no other birth of a sister. Was she a full or half sister?
Geoffrey's 1952 marriage cert to Ethel can be found on this topic on Rootschat. It's a very long topic and has incorrect info re emigration to SA for Ethel & Geoffrey
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837778.27
Select page 4 and reply 30 to save you time wading through it all
Third message after I found the birth for his sister
Hi Jamie
Found her - freebmd are showing mothers maiden name as Toper so I have sent a correction to freebmd
Cheers
Carole
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For those following this thread, I have today received a copy of the Ethel Wills birth certificate.
Ethel Wills, daughter of George Wills and Winifred Quin, born in 1928 in Salford, was a guess at who Ethel Quin, the subject of this thread, might have been.
So the Birth Cert says
Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth
Registration District West Salford
Year 1928
Entry
211
19th January 1928 2 Stott Lane, Salford UD
Ethel
Girl
Father George Wills
Mother Winifred Wills formerly Quin
Occupation of Father: Labourer in Emery Mills of 111 Robert Hall Street, Salford UD
Informant: Winifred Wills, Mother of 2 Stott Lane, Salford
Registration date: 25th January 1928
Registrar JH Gibbins
And note far right: Adopted. A S Payn, Deputy Superintendent Registrar.
My thoughts are that Ethel's parents seem to have been separated at the time of her birth, and that their baby was adopted.
There was a further daughter, Agnes Wills (mmn Quin), born October 1929, who we have been unable to find and it is possible that she might also have been adopted - she may not, indeed, have been the child of George Wills.
George Wills and Winifred Quin Wills' first daughter, Winifred, born 1924, is found in 1939 living with the widow of her father's brother, not at the address of her father and stepmother - whilst this is just a snapshot in time, it may have indicated that the family broke up relatively soon after the marriage.
Added: after posting, it's also just occurred to me that, depending on the date of separation of George Wills and Winifred Quin Wills, Ethel may not have been George's daughter.
He might have been shown on the certificate as father purely because the couple were still married, and therefore any child born would be assumed to be the husband's child.
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I have just checked 2 Stott Lane, Salford - this is the Hope Hospital, and was originally the Workhouse Infirmary.
So this address is not confirmation Winifred and George were living apart at the time of the birth, she was just in the Workhouse Infirmary. The adoption may well indicate other issues, though, of course.
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Ive sent this to the daughter and she told me shes already applied for any adoption records. Ive also asked her to obtain copy of certificate for the marriage to Charlie Richardson. Ive sent a PM to the owner of the family tree of Winnifred Wills, born in Salford 1924 to George Will and Winnifred Quin who we beleive is the sister of Ethel and Agnes who we now think was also adopted.
Im trying to see who was living at the address in Salford from the Land Army registration on the 1939 Register....they maybe the people who adopted Ethel ?
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1 Shirley Ave, Salford.
The occupants are Henry and Elsie Robinson (born 30/8/1901; 12/5/1903 respectively), with Selina Fabrell (born 14/4/1872), shown as married.
One redacted entry.
From earlier post when I looked this up.
Added: the redacted entry shows a birth in 1935 so couldn't be Ethel's sister Agnes. May indeed be a child of Henry and Elsie.
And further added: we can't be sure Agnes was adopted without getting her birth cert, too
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The 1 Shirley Avenue Salford address given by Ethel Quin on her Land Army enlistment was in 1946.
We hypothesised that the 1939 residents of that address, Henry and Elsie Robinson (plus her mother Selina, and their son) had moved away by 1946.
However, in looking at the Robinsons, I have found Henry Robinson's Probate Record in 1957 which quotes his address as 1 Shirley Avenue - the family evidently remained there until at least the mid 50's.
So either Ethel Quin's Land Army address details do link her in some way to the Robinsons, or she made up the address.
I'm looking at other houses on the road for 1939
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I must also apologise that I theorised that Winifred Quin Wills and George Wills might have been separated at the time of their daughter Ethel's birth.
I had forgotten that we found a baptism for Ethel on 29th January 1928 - 10 days after her birth - which shows her as the daughter of George and Winifred Wills of 111 Robert Hall Street., George's address on the birth certificate.
The subsequent adoption shown on Ethel's birth certificate is not dated.
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Igor it’s quite understandable as this search / story has been weaving theories and leading us all left right and centre. Again many thanks for your help. I hope to get the info we require from the adoption records and also the marriage certificate to Charles Richardson.
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Just to update you, and for anyone else looking, I've researched the Robinson family who lived at 1 Shirley Avenue, Salford, in the 1939 and stayed at that address until at least the mid 1950's, and cannot see any link to the Wills/Quin families.
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Can I ask for more eyes on some further research on the Wills family, please?
Ethel Wills was the daughter of George Wills and Winifred Quin Wills.
I have found George and Winifred's eldest daughter, Winifred (1924 Salford) in the 1939. She is living with her paternal uncle Albert Wills' widow, Annie. So we know that George's siblings did play at least some part in his children's lives.
Another of her paternal uncles, Harold Wills (1906-1957) married Maude Gladys Jefferies in December 1928. They had a son Harold in Jul qtr 1930, who sadly died in the October quarter of that year.
I cannot see any other children for Harold and Maude - please can anyone else see any? - but Maude is in the 1939, without Harold (can't see him, either, can anyone else) and two redacted entries, at 53 Hope Street Salford, which is about a mile away from the Wills family home at 111 Robert Hall Street.
These two redacted entries might possibly be Ethel (1928 Salford) and Agnes (1929 Salford) Wills, since their mother Winifred died in the July qtr of 1930, just at the point brother in law and sister in law Harold and Maude lost their baby.
I am again theorising, but please can anyone see births to Harold and Maude which might explain these redacted entries?
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Added
Have just seen a Edna M Wills birth Jan qtr 1937 MMN Jeffries in Manchester North (not Salford).
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Another one?
June 1932 Manchester N. 8d 805
Wills, Gladys
mother Jeffries
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Thanks, Jon - maybe I'm a theory too far!
For some reason I have difficulty in searching Ancestry for births, especially with a date range.
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Hi
That surname of Gladys is always an awkward one!
I just use Jeff*, and hope for the best!
It did look promising for a while, with those redacted entries.
But, more importantly, a big well done to you on this. Really good news about the birth certificate, which has surely confirmed your theory that Ethel Quin was born as Ethel Wills (mother Quin!)
Great thread, hope there is more to come.
John
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Well done from me too, IgorStrav. You have been very generous and worked so hard. :)
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Well there is a further update
I have now received the marriage certificate in 1959 for Charlie Richardson and Ethel Quin
(yet more evidence of my incorrigible nosiness).
The bride is is shown as
aged 31 years at the marriage date of 14th February 1959 - which fits with a 19th January 1928 birth previous marriage dissolved - which fits with Carole's discovery of the Geoffrey Baird divorce/remarriage
father: George QUIN (deceased), Adoptive father, Engineering fitter.
I have an extensive Quin/Wills family tree, but the only George Quin I have so far is Ethel's uncle, who was unmarried in 1939, and seems unlikely to be an adoptive father. Ethel's grandfather, William George Quin was however a 'general fitter - engineering) in the 1939.
We will of course have to see what the adoption records may reveal.
Added: If I were Ethel's daughter, I would also be investing in Ethel's sister Agnes's birth certificate to see if she, too, was adopted. However, I do indeed appreciate the costs of doing this sort of research, as we all know.
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Igor you research has been amazing and I would like to thank you and everyone else who has contributed to this immense mystery.
I’m in touch with the daughter in spain and she has applied fir the adoption records. I will try to research the possibilities of the 2 other Wills children (Agnes and Winifred) . Just disappointed that the person who owns Winifred Wills family tree has not replied to my request for information.
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Just to endorse my comments to Igor in my many pm's - WOW. ;D
He went "above and beyond" in paying for both the 1928 birth cert and the 1959 marriage cert but just look how it has advanced this post.
We now know for certain that Ethel Quin was actually born Ethel Wills in 1928 and despite 2 previous marriages in 1947 and 1952 she married for a 3rd time in 1959 to Charlie Richardson as Ethel Quin.
Charlie died in 1998 but we don't know if that marriage survived or if Ethel went on to marry for a 4th time. Charlie didn't leave a will so no clues there
Have messaged the Wills tree owner who is a descendant of Ethel's eldest sister Winifred to see if any info is known.
I messaged the Richardson tree owner back in September but at that time we were unsure if the 1959 marriage was relevant. He had no info about Ethel but I have messaged again with updated info.
SO - the hunt for Ethel after 1959 continues. Did she stay with Charlie or did they divorce?
Both Igor and myself have searched deaths for all Ethel's with a birthdate of 19.1.1928 but zilch.
If she died before 1969 there won't be a birthdate ::)
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Ethel Richardson appears on the 1960 electoral role but I can’t find her beyond that
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Reply received from Richardson tree owner but he has no info re Ethel after the marriage.
Couple of thoughts
Charlie Richardson was born in Durham but died Slough 1998. Was there any obit in the local paper?
How available are divorce records for the 1960/70's?
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Well done for crossing off that other potential, Carole.
Can't currently see in British Newspapers anything for Charles/Charlie Richardson 1/1/1998 - 1/8/1998.
I wonder whether the death cert would say anything else - I'm not proposing to invest in it, but possibly Ethel's daughter might. I appreciate that death certificates are notoriously uninformative.
The US habit of extensive obituaries, including family members and other helpful details, are rarer in the UK sadly.
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Reply received from Richardson tree owner but he has no info re Ethel after the marriage.
How available are divorce records for the 1960/70's?
I see (thanks Google) that if you don't know the date/case number of a divorce in the UK, a search over 10 years (5 years either side of your specified date) costs £45.
The difficulty with this of course is that if neither party wants to re-marry, then there is not much need to divorce, but simply separate and live with other partners.
So even if Charlie and Ethel's marriage didn't last, they may not have divorced. We have not found children, either.
Added: I have been trying to search other countries' death records with a birth date of 19/1/1928 for an Ethel, but no joy.
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Ethel's grandfather, William George Quin was however a 'general fitter - engineering) in the 1939.
Mr. Quin married again to Florence Lowe, a younger widow, 4 Oct 1924, Salford.
George Wills was a witness
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3MJ-L9RT
(my incorrigible nosiness).
Any occupation for Charlie (he was only 11 on the 1939 Register!)
Address of Ethel?
The Quin name appeared on all three of Ethel's marriage records, so maybe she did stay Richardson after 1959.
Didn't know that you had purchased those certificates, I am gobsmacked.
John
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Charlie didn't leave a will so no clues there
Can we be sure?
His death was in June 1998 in Slough and he is indexed as both Charlie Richardson
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZX-71ML
and Charles Richardson!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZX-71MN
I can't see another plain Charles Richardson death in England and Wales in June, but there is a probate record
Charles Richardson, died 2 June 1998
Date of probate 15 October 1998
Type - Grant and will
Registry - Winchester
Probate number 9852429011
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Jon - you little gem ;D
His death was registered twice (his birth was registered as Charlie)
Charlie Richardson aged 69 b 13 Sep 1928 Jun 1998 Slough A29C 3211A 202
Charles Richardson aged 69 b 13 Sep 1928 Jun 1998 Slough A29C 3211A 202
Downloading a copy of the will for £1.50 could help
Igor & 1 are also pursuing another line at the moment but it's early days
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Hi Carole
He is just Charles on new GRO death index? They only do things once!
RICHARDSON, CHARLES
Year of Birth: 1928
GRO Reference: DOR Q2/1998 in Slough (3211A) Reg A29C Entry Number 202
That is right, isn't it, death was in the month of June? Hope so!
John
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I think that will entry is looking very worthwhile
EDIT
Am just going to download a copy - probably next week before it arrives
EDIT - done - now the wait begins ;D
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Jolly decent of you, Carole.
I do hope it's right
England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007 on FamilySearch
Search for deaths after 1983 and the results give you month of death (as "other")
Click on an individual record and it changes to Registration Quarter (i.e Apr-May-Jun)
So hopefully Charlie did die in June. Phew!
Good luck
EDIT
I surely should have said month of registration Anyway, death on 2nd June looks good.
John
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I can feel in my old bones that it's the right will. ;D
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Just to add my two penn'orth to this search
I've produced about 29 Ethel Richardsons in a 2009 Electoral Roll search, but sadly the years of birth are not shown in this cheapskate search site.
The Ethels are spread all across the country and include Scotland and Northern Ireland, and unfortunately none of them is noticeably close to Buckinghamshire/Berkshire where we know Ethel was in 1960.
So no further with that one so far, then.
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As both Igor & Jon know from pm exchange - there is another avenue being explored at the moment. It may go nowhere - but we have to give it a try.
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Wills & Probates must be working overtime - email notification arrived half an hour ago - Charlie Richardson's will
Shown on the will as Charles Richardson - otherwise Charlie Richardson
Sadly - it looks as though Ethel had yet another short lived marriage as "Charles" appears to have remarried in 1966 and had a daughter from that marriage.
Further info to follow by pm later as I am doing a bit of digging around at the moment
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Well done for getting the Richardson will, Carole.
However, at the risk of simply saying just what everyone is thinking:
that now leads us on to questioning whether Ethel did marry again, or simply live with a partner, taking his name.
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Yes - worst fears confirmed but perhaps a glimmer of hope if I make that call tomorrow - see pm I have just sent
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Any further info on this thread will now have to be by pm as it involves living persons. I have a little bit of info which may turn up something but it's early days
PM's will be sent asap
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Just to say - well done Carole for your persistence with this hunt, making calls and following through over and above the call of duty.
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over and above the call of duty.
Same could be said about you buying the birth and marriage cert ;D
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I must thank everyone for your persistence and dedication...this has been a roller coaster of a journey that isn’t getting easier....just when we think we’ve cracked it....bang ! it takes another twist.
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WELL - thanks to some info received on Thursday and some brilliant research by jonw65 we now know that Ethel called herself by a different first christian and went on to marry twice more that we know of. She died in 2010. There is a strong possibility that at least one of her later husbands is still alive so no further details can be posted.
Derek has been sent all additional information
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Many congratulations for the brilliant further research and information seeking.
I think it has produced a result that we’d never have expected from the start of this mystery thread.
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It has certainly kept us occupied and everything seems to have come together in the last few days.
Lots of twists and turns along the way but we got there in the end ;D
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It's certainly been an amazing effort, but particularly by Carole and Igor. They have both indeed gone over and above and deserve the highest praise.
Igor was absolutely right about Ethel Wills and purchased the certificate to prove it,
Carole's great efforts over the last few days to procure more info has certainly paid off. She mentioned that there are two more marriages for Ethel, and looking for the first of those on the relevant county BMD website brings good news.
Well done to them both!
Jon
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Thank you, Jon, your kind comments appreciated.
I thought you'd like to know that I've now excelled myself in this 'over and above the call of duty' respect with regard to this particular search.
In reviewing further bits on my Ancestry Wills/Quin tree, I also noticed that someone had made a correction to the 1939 Register for Ethel's stepbrother, Jack (Hanrahan) Wills.
I couldn't see a tree for this person, but thought she might be connected to the family in some way, so dropped her a message with a link to this thread, asking if she knew any more about Ethel.
Sadly, however, this has turned out to be of no further assistance, as the person concerned turned out to be our very own CaroleW, in her Ancestry alter ego.
:D :D :D :D :D
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It’s been very interesting. Well done to all.
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Thank you. Igor & I have had a laugh over the 1939 correction. ;D
One more bit of the puzzle may possibly fall into place in the next week or so but I think what has been found so far & particularly knowing when & where she died may be of help to her daughter
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Ive just read all this thread
what an.amazing example of persistance ,collaberation detective work.and generosity
Well done ..
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Thank you - it's been a real team effort and over the last few days info has come to light which has resulted in the promise of photos of Ethel being sent by 2 different friends who knew her and spent a lot of time with her
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All this is very exciting.
I remain interested in what the Adoption records will show for Ethel/Iris Quin.
I've gone back over all the relatives I can think of for the Wills/Quin family, including those of Ethel's grandfather William George Quin (the engineering fitter of the 1939 Register).
I've also followed through the relatives of William's 2nd wife Florence Barrow.
However, I've not managed to find any of the associated relatives living with Ethel in the 1939, or indeed any redacted entries which might be her. Or any links, so far, to the Salford address Ethel quoted in her 1946 Land Army records.
It would be interesting to see whether - as has been subsequently reported in Carole's private research - that Ethel was adopted by her Quin grandparents.
But if we don't find out much more, it's been a great privilege to be part of this thread ;) :D
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Coincidence
an adoptee daughter of another adoptee who im helping has connections to the Quin ,/,quinn surname
How unusual is it with one n?
connections to Whitehaven Cumberland.Ireland and Canada
The QUINN spelling seems more prominent ;
connections to Liverpool
Shes given me access to her dna so im.busy making a cluster
Igor I think I will have to ask for access to the Ethel tree on the offchance that there's a link
but also it would be interesting to see the tree you built for this thread
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Hi Brigidmac
Does your Quin research involve a 1952 marriage in Whitehaven between an AQ & NT?
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I'll PM you Brigid
As far as I've got back is
William George Quin, born c 1845 in Dublin
married in January 1865 in Birkenhead:
Mary Ann Jones, born c 1837 in Wepre (which is close to Connah's Quay, Flintshire)
Their first child (that I know of, haven't searched GRO) Caroline Winifred Quin was born in December 1870 in Sparkbrook, Worcestershire, but by the 1871 Census the family were back in Birkenhead where William George was a 'marker at the docks'.
Second child William George Quin (grandfather of Ethel/Iris Quin) was born in 1874 in Birkenhead.
I believe he was in Essex on a ship, the Countess of Durham out of Sunderland, as a fireman in the 1881.
In the 1891 he's back in Birkenhead, a mariner, shopkeeper.
And I believe he died in 1900.
I've not researched William George senior any further in Ireland, the Dublin reference is the only one I found to the location of his origin.
Don't know if that helps at all with your Quin/Quinn family
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Ive not done any research on Quin s yet was researching connection to my Birkenhead SMITH side her birth fsther
Not sure how Whitehaven Quins connect to her except that must be on birth mothers side
The name cones up as surname of some of her matches and when I put it into dna search several of her matched dna trees have the name on it
Will pm.Igor
Carole ..havent seen anyones trees with the single n spelling that come down to recent times
There was illiteracy in the family apparently
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The QUINN family I saw were 0riginally from Ireland
based in preston from 1840
Liverpool from 1860 to present day
Could be nothing to do with Ethel
it would be a big coincidence
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Forget that 1952 marriage - different A** Quin. Thought she may be Ethel’s sister
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Invite to the tree sent to Brigid.
Brigid, please alert me to any errors/omissions and also if you find someone in the 1939 Register who could be Ethel that I've missed, please do say!!!
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Forget that 1952 marriage - different A** Quin. Thought she may be Ethel’s sister
I've had a further look, Carole - there's an Agnes Quin born Jan qtr 1926 in Whitehaven, who is likely I think to be the person marrying there in 1952, so not the Agnes Quin, younger sister of Ethel, who we've been looking for, who was born in 1929.
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Thanks for the tree .I will alert my adoptee match for when she works out her Quin connection tho suspect.I will have to do.it for her when I get a chance as I said at moment its just a cluster of matches one could be her a birt parent of birth mothers b 1914... ie a grandparent
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I can confirm the Ethel was adopted on 20/11/1930 by William George and a Florence Quin and the address listed 12 West Richmond Street, Salford.
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That makes sense with the "George" Quin named as father in Ethel's marriage to Charlie Richardson, who - as we've noted before - is a General Fitter (engineering) on the 1939 Register. They are her maternal grandfather, and step grandmother.
In 1939 when Ethel was only 11, she does not appear with William George and his wife Florence (Barrow) Quin, at 15 Earl Street, Salford. With the couple is James Henry Lowe (born 1914, so 25 years old), Florence's son from her first marriage.
I've not been able to find an entry for Ethel in the 1939 with any of the family (including Florence Barrow's relatives), or a redacted entry which might be her.
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Is there an outside chance she was evacuated? It started beginning of Sept & the 1939 register was 29th
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Is there an outside chance she was evacuated? It started beginning of Sept & the 1939 register was 29th
Maybe you're right, Carole.
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Given the complexities we have uncovered I don’t think her 1939 entry will be opened until after 2028
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Unless she was taken into care ? Considering how many times she married and also changed her identity she may have had some emotional issues or something ? ( just speculation) and could have taken into some kind of care home ? Her address on the land army is different from the main family home. So she moved address within Salford .
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The Quin s ive found dna matches to come from.far and wide .
And no obvious connections between most of them
..of course they would not be a biological match to.Ethel but I will look out for florence Quin from salford .now
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The Quin s ive found dna matches to come from.far and wide .
And no obvious connections between most of them
..of course they would not be a biological match to.Ethel but I will look out for florence Quin from salford .now
Florence was William George Quin's second wife. They married in the Oct qtr 1924
She was born Florence Barrow (1889 Salford), and married John Lowe (1873-1924), and they had one son James Henry Lowe, born 1914 who is with his mother and stepfather in the 1939.
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I would interested to review the Quin family tree with Ethel’s daughter so see if we have covered everything that’s been found to date. It’s also a possibility that some family members are still alive ?
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Do you want me to invite you to see the Ancestry tree I have created for the family, Derek?
We have not as yet found Ethel's younger sister Agnes.
Agnes Wills
Reg Date 10/1929 (Oct 1929)
Reg Qtr Oct-Nov-Dec
Reg district Salford
County Greater Manchester
MMN Quin
Vol No 8d
Page 374
Her birth certificate would show if she, like Ethel, was adopted.
We don't have her precise birthday, just Oct qtr 1929, or her mother Winifred Quin's precise death in the July qtr of 1930, but she is likely to be under 12 months old at her mother's death.
If she was adopted, then her name may well have been completely changed by her adoptive parents. I've not found her within the family in 1939 either, or a redacted entry which might be her.
I'm not clear if it's possible to get details of the adoption if you aren't a direct descendant of the adopted person - perhaps someone can clarify for me - but it is possible that Agnes has children which would be Ethel's daughter's cousins.
These would be in addition to the descendants of Ethel's sister Winifred, who Carole has already attempted to contact.
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Winifred Wills buried 12 July 1930, location Greater Manchester.
One other person in grave.
Info from deceased online free index.
Burial was at Weaste Cemetery.
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One other person in grave.
That could be George who seems to have died in 1958?
George Wills, died 22 June 1958, buried 26 June 1958, Greater Manchester
One other in grave. Cemetery is Weaste.
George's second wife Alice died 21 Aug 1982, cremated 26 Aug 1982, Greater Manchester
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Winifred Wills buried 12 July 1930, location Greater Manchester.
One other person in grave.
Info from deceased online free index.
Burial was at Weaste Cemetery.
Great find, Jon. So as we theorised, it must have been a huge upheaval with a tiny baby (Agnes) in the house, a two year old (Ethel) and a six year old (Winifred) with their mother dying.
Father George Wills remarried in the Jan qtr of the following year, and his wife had a son of her own aged 4 at the time.
The Agnes Quin 1952 marriage in Whitehaven, found by Carole, has I believe been ruled out (there is a Quin family in Whitehaven and I've found the birth details of this Agnes there).
There's an Agnes Quinn marriage in Salford in 1954, but to be honest it's guesswork that Agnes would follow sister Ethel in taking on her mother's maiden name, and of course there's the extra 'n', too
I think we'd need to find out a) if Agnes was adopted and b) if so, whether she was renamed by her adoptive parents - and if so, there's not much point in looking for her under either Quin or Wills.
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I think I ruled that 1954 marriage out because I found births in 1932 & 1933 for the bride & groom.
I have recently spoken to 2 friends of Ethel’s who both told me they knew she had a sister as she used to visit her. Her eldest sister died in 1962 so it must be Agnes she visited.
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I think I ruled that 1954 marriage out because I found births in 1932 & 1933 for the bride & groom.
I have recently spoken to 2 friends of Ethel’s who both told me they knew she had a sister as she used to visit her. Her eldest sister died in 1962 so it must be Agnes she visited.
Thank you Carole re the 1954 marriage, I must have missed your ruling it out. I was doubtful anyway, as I say.
I think I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that if Agnes was adopted as a baby her name was changed. Though I assume there must have been some knowledge of 'where she had gone' so to speak, if Ethel/Iris was in touch with her in later life.
We don't have an exact birth date for Agnes as we did for Etheil/Iris, so have no clues as to where she might be in the 1939.
If Ethel/Iris was adopted by her maternal grandfather and step grandmother, I suppose it's possible that there is a re-registration reflecting an adoption for one of the family members Agnes?
I will have a look to see if there are any other Oct 1929 registrations for a girl child within the close family.
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Hi Igor
You didn’t miss anything as I didn’t mention ruling out the 1954 marriage on this thread. It’s just something I checked after speaking to Ethel’s friends. Am looking at another way of getting the info but will pm you later
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A quick update. Some photos of Ethel have now been received from one of her friends & these will be emailed to her daughter
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Just a quick congratulation from me on the above-and-beyond research from Carole and others on this thread, which has filled in the details of her mother's life for Ethel Quin's daughter.
Fantastic work. :) :)
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Thanks Igor but none of this would have been possible without a full birthdate & thanks to your initiative in buying the Wills birth cert - we got that info. You also bought the 1959 marriage cert which again helped considerably in establishing it was the right Ethel.
That info set us on the right path & with the help of info from 2 wills it resulted in us being able to establish her whereabouts and her death and the names of 2 friends who so kindly agreed to send some photos of her for her daughter
This has been a wonderful team effort by many RC members. The twists and turns have proved a real challenge but it also resulted in one of the most satisfactory endings I have encountered