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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Kerrill on Thursday 24 September 20 12:26 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
have come across a brick wall could anyone find Matthew Wignall born 1886 in Preston Lancashire in the 1911 census, he died in Flanders in 1918 must warn you that there was two Matthew's born in the same year but my one had a mother Margaret born 1849 died 1903 and father Matthew born 1848 died 1907 . My thinking is he must have been away in the army but would he still be in the census?
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There is a Matthew Wignall born in Preston with father Matthew and mother Margaret who enlisted in the Army in 1902 - he overstated his age seemingly - declaring himself as 18! Address of parents 19 Heatley St Preston.
Records are on Find My Past.
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There is a 'Mark' not Matthew who is in the overseas military in 1911 similar age born Preston, I wonder if that is him. I can't see a birth that matches on freebmd or any mention on census other than 1911, perhaps someone else can see him.
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I have found the one you have found, Rosie. If it is the same person he has changed Regiments.
In 1902 Matthew joined what looks like 3rd Battalion Royal Lancs.
As we aren't supposed to show 1911 details - all I can say is that this is a different Regiment.
I cannot see any attestation papers for a Mark Wignall born in Preston though (although that doesn't mean there aren't any). Having said that - I can't see a birth in Preston for a Mark Wignall around the mid 1880s either.
You would think - on a balance of probability - it's the same chap.
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FS have the 1911 for Mark
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VH-W1D
Mark Wignall
1911
Trimulgherry, Andhra Pradesh, India
Overseas Military
Age: 26
Marital Status: Single
Institution:2ND BATTALION THE KINGS SHROPSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY
Birthplace:Preston, Lancashire
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In addition to the Matthew that 'Pennines' has quoted, there is another Matthew Wignall that has service papers on Find My Past. This one enlisted on 27/2/1908 (should read 27/2/1903 - incorrectly transcribed on FindMyPast) giving his age as 18 years 3 months. His residence is given as 3 Brown Square, Preston. His parents are recorded as Matthew and Margaret. His height is almost the same on both records, the colour of his eyes and hair are exactly the same on both records.
It is possible that his parents tracked him down when he enlisted in 1902 and as he had joined without their permission he would have been returned to his parents.
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Hi All,
have come across a brick wall could anyone find Matthew Wignall born 1886 in Preston Lancashire in the 1911 census, he died in Flanders in 1918 must warn you that there was two Matthew's born in the same year but my one had a mother Margaret born 1849 died 1903 and father Matthew born 1848 died 1907 . My thinking is he must have been away in the army but would he still be in the census?
Oddly, the only Matthew Wignall I can see on the CWGC site who died in 1918, is shown as being 18 years old?
Matthew Wignall Pte, 2nd/8th Battalion The Kings (Liverpool Regiment) Service no 90989.
Boo
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The Matthew Wignall that 'Boo' mentions (KIA 1918) is not the Matthew that 'Kerrill' is looking for. The pension records for Matthew Wignall that was killed in 1918 shows that the mother of that soldier was Mary Ellen Wignall.
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On the Commonwealth War Graves Site - the Wignall possibly shown as Mark in 1911 was killed in 1914 - Kings Shropshire Light Infantry.
That is the same Regiment shown for 'Mark' in 1911.
(It would be boring if it went smoothly!)
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I was just curious as Kerrill's post says that the man the enquiry is about died in 1918 in Flanders - and the ages don't match with the age on the CWGC nor, as AllanUK says, with the register of soldiers effects or the pension index cards.
Boo
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CWGC does have a Matthew Wignall Pte King's Shropshire Light Infantry 1st Bn, service no 7652 who died 14 Nov 1914
ADDED citation on CWGC says he was the brother of Mrs Morrison of 110 Bedford St Preston
1901 census has a sister Margaret for Matthew with parents Matthew and Margaret
marriages Q1 1908 Preston
Margaret Wignall and James Henry Morrison on same page looks likely
the regiment tallies with the 1911 census on FS that rosie99 posted for Mark/Matthew
Boo
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I think that we can discount Matthew Wignall KIA 1914. His paperwork records that he was the brother of a Mrs Morrison of 110 Bedford Street, Preston. This lady was Elizabeth Ann Wignall (born 1876, parents Thomas and Elizabeth) married Thomas Morrison in 1901.
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I think that we can discount Matthew Wignall KIA 1914. His paperwork records that he was the brother of a Mrs Morrison of 110 Bedford Street, Preston. This lady was Elizabeth Ann Wignall (born 1876, parents Thomas and Elizabeth) married Thomas Morrison in 1901.
damn! That marriage for a Margaret Wignall looked likely, thanks AllanUK
Boo
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Thanks very much for all your replies your are all brilliant, His sister was Margaret Morrison apologies for leading you up the wrong tree ::) But I always thought that he had died in 1918 now your good selves have put me on the right track.
Again thank you very much
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Thanks very much for all your replies your are all brilliant, His sister was Margaret Morrison apologies for leading you up the wrong tree ::) But I always thought that he had died in 1918 now your good selves have put me on the right track.
Again thank you very much
Hi Kerrill
Make sure you read 'all' the replies, as AllanUK has now discounted that 1914 death ( I assume he tracked the address for the Mrs Morrison and found they were not related)
Boo
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The 1918 death was the wrong age though. Maybe there is something in the local newspaper if it's on line - which might give more info. I'll have a look!
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I've just come across this site;
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/312/
It's not in alpha order though and has 18 pages - may be worth scrolling through!
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Margaret his sister did marry James Morrison and they lived at 110 Bedford street, so thinking Boo was spot on.
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The site is Preston war dead and is quite good - but Matthew isn't on it sadly - good site for anyone with someone from Preston who died in First World War - there are photos of some of the men! Doesn't help with this query I'm afraid.
Worth bearing in mind for the future.
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Margaret his sister did marry James Morrison and they lived at 110 Bedford street, so thinking Boo was spot on.
if you are sure about that then there is an entry in the register of soldiers effects on ancestry (if you don't have access then check your local library website, many are allowing remote access to ancestry/find my past from home at the moment - the library site will give details of how)
His sole legatee was a Miss Margaret Walmsley. ? maybe a fiancee? and she received his pay/war gratuity
There is also a (on Fold 3) a pension index card which gives her address as 29 Lawson St.She appears to have received a dependant's pension.
and for the princely sum of £1.50 and maybe a bit of a wait for it to arrive, you can order a copy of his 'soldiers will' from https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/ it may not tell you much about her, but at least is quite cheap to find out :-)
Boo
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Just to confirm (not that I don't believe you Kerrill, I just like things to add up properly or they bug me)
James Henry Morrison and his wife Margaret (nee Wignall) were recorded on the 1929 and 1930 electoral registers at 110 Bedford St., Preston
in 1911 they were at Brow Square, Preston
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X49C-SQP
and that service record for Pte Matthew Wignall that AllanUK found on Find My Past
which shows he transferred to the Shropshire Light Infantry has his address at enlistment as 3 Brow's Square Preston.
So, I'd say that the 1911 census rosie99 found on Family Search for 'Mark' Wignall, born c 1885, Preston and on military service in India is really quite likely to be your man.
Boo
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Yes you are spot on Boo, your help has been brilliant. ;D
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and because I really like to be sure, I can see that James Henry ( recorded as James, no middle name) and Margaret were on the electoral register at 110 Bedford St in 1920, so that would fit in with the CWGC site details as those citations on the records would be from around the 1920s.
Pleased we could help. As in this case its often a joint effort with everyone pitching in bits and pieces till a fuller picture emerges.
Boo
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I searched for the address given for Margaret Walmsley but it is on the Summary Books so no further information (also on the list is a Wignall at a different address) - how do you search for an address in 1901? Do you put the address in keywords?
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Hi Durham Girl - you can search by address on either Find My Past or the Genealogist.
To search on Find My Past go to the census via the 'All record sets' section and insert the census year. You get the option to click over to 'address'.
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ok thankyou
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I have reviewed my postings from yesterday.
Matthew Wignall, born late 1885, baptised 17 December 1885 St Matthew’s, Preston. Father = Matthew (a Carter); Mother = Margaret. Living at Geoffrey Street, Preston.
A search of military records reveals that there are two service records for Matthew (junior).
The first attestation record shows Matthew joining the 3rd Battalion of the King’s Own, Royal Lancaster Regiment* on the 7 May 1902. He was given the service number of 9273. He gives his residence as 19 Heatley Street, Preston and his next of kin as Matthew and Margaret Wignall of the same address. He declares his occupation as that of a labourer and his age as 18 years. His record shows that he was just over 5 feet 2 inches tall weighing 99lbs with blue eyes; dark brown hair and a fresh complexion. His religion was Church of England. Page 3 of his attestation records that he was still present in 1903.
*a militia force for home service, only embodied into the regular Army at times of war.
The second attestation record shows Matthew joining the 3rd Battalion of the East Lancashire Regiment on the 27 February 1903 (transcriptions wrongly show the date as 1908). He was given the service number of 2520. He gives his residence as Brow(n) Square, Preston and his next of kin as Matthew and Margaret Wignall of the same address. He declares his occupation as that of a labourer and his age of 18 years 3 months. His record shows that he was 5 feet 4 inches tall weighing 109lbs with blue eyes; dark brown hair and a fresh complexion. His religion was Church of England.
Both attestation records imply that Matthew wasn’t honest about his age. When he joined the King’s Own Royal Lancaster regiment his true age would have being about 16 years 4 months and not 18 years as he declared. When he joined the East Lancashire Regiment his true age would have been about 17 years 3 months and not the 18 years 3 months he declared. He also wasn’t honest on his second attestation when he declared that he had never been in the Militia or Army before. His second attestation record shows that he joined the Shropshire Light Infantry (SLI) on the 6 February 1904 and was given a new service number of 7652.
The 1911 Census for military overseas records a Mark Wignall serving in India with the 2ndBattalion S.L.I. This man’s age and place of birth matches Matthew, it is likely that the two are the same. (a search of civil birth registration records have failed to find a birth registered in the UK for a Mark Wignall born circa 1885. Likewise, a search of military records has failed to find a Mark Wignall). The UK Army Registers of Soldiers’ Effects records that ‘our’ Matthew was in the 1st Battalion of the S.L.I. My thoughts are that he was transferred at some stage between the Battalions, the 1st battalion arrived in France in September 1914 whereas the 2nd didn’t arrive until December 1914. Matthew was killed in action on the 14 November 1914. He was awarded the 1914 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
I apologise for discounting Margaret Wignall marrying a Morrison, I agree that she married James Henry in 1908.
A search of Army pension records finds that there is an entry for a dependant’s pension made in 1920 by a Margaret Walmsley. A search of records has failed to find a link between her and Matthew.
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I apologise for discounting Margaret Wignall marrying a Morrison, I agree that she married James Henry in 1908.
No need to apologise, all possibilities should be explored and your post led me to take a closer look at the addresses (which, at that stage I had failed to do) so it turned out fine in the end.
Boo
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Margaret Walmsley the address given for her on the pension index card was 29 Lawson St., Preston.
I've now poked round the electoral registers and found that a John Walmsley was registered to vote at that address in both 1911 and 1914.
Looking on family search for Margaret Walmsley in 1911, living in Preston with a Dad called John gives this transcript.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X49W-8GF
FS don't include an address in the transcript but if you have access to the 1911 census there's a very high chance that the address will match :-)
The following is straw clutching as a possibility that couldn't be proved without further documents such as birth/ deaths certs.
GRO site gives a birth in Q2 1913, Preston for a Maria Walmsley, mother's maiden name is blank which indicates the child was illegitimate
Sadly there is a corresponding death in the same year and quarter for a Maria Walmsley age 0.
?a possible child of Matthew Wignall and Margaret Walmsley?
As I say, its straw clutching, but IF it is correct it could be a link between Matthew Wignall and Margaret Walmsley. Maybe they had planned to marry and he hadn't got home to do so before he was shipped off to France?
If it were me, I'd bung it in the possibles file anyway to be investigated at a later date (perhaps after winning the lottery - at which stage I could sit and order certs for everyone I have in my tree, no matter how tiny a twiglet they are!)
Boo
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GRO site gives a birth in Q2 1913, Preston for a Maria Walmsley, mother's maiden name is blank which indicates the child was illegitimate
Sadly there is a corresponding death in the same year and quarter for a Maria Walmsley age 0.
?a possible child of Matthew Wignall and Margaret Walmsley?
Good thinking, Boo.
Preston Burial Ground
Roman Catholic section
23 April 1913
Maria Walmsley
residence 29 Lawson Street
age 12 days
In a public grave
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJN-Q7LR
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Well done Boo, 911 Census shows that the Walmsley family were living at 29 Lawson Street. I would agree that it looks like Matthew and Margaret had a 'dalliance' resulting in the birth of a daughter. Hence the claim for a dependants benefit.
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WOW :D that's Brilliant. thanks so much.
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Well done Boo, 911 Census shows that the Walmsley family were living at 29 Lawson Street. I would agree that it looks like Matthew and Margaret had a 'dalliance' resulting in the birth of a daughter. Hence the claim for a dependants benefit.
Different perspective here, for 'dalliance' I would have thought, fella in the army, home on leave, plan to get married and (as is human nature) jumped the gun a bit on the consumation :-) We could both be wrong though . .
Boo
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Boo,
Just been thinking things through --- if Maria was the daughter of Matthew, why did Margaret Walmsley apply for benefits from the Army in 1920 when Maria had died? Is it possible that there was another child of Matthew and Margaret?
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Short answer is I have no idea, but she does appear to have received a pension. I also don't know for sure that the child was Matthew's (or indeed, Margaret's - only the birth cert would show who the mother was -though given the address on the burial record jonw65 found its highly likely)
Longer answer (and I am not au fait with the intricacies of how the army decided if a dependant's pension was allowed, so this is conjecture)
Perhaps, as he was in regular army - so his records would span a longer time frame than those who joined up at the outbreak of war, intended to marry her anyway, he had been allocating part of his pay to be paid to her for her upkeep for some time? That 'could' have shown the army she was dependant upon his income? She was named as his sole legatee in the soldier's register of effects and the will may, or may not, shed any light on the relationship. The pension index card (though sparse on detail) shows he was single, and awards dates listed for 1920 and 1921 (may have been longer for all I know, but they are the only dates listed.)
As ever, we find answers to one question and it sparks off yet more questions :-)
Boo
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Been there many times on my own research -- one question answered leads to many more unanswered. As you say, his will may provide more clues.
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Just got the will and it tells a sad story, seems like you reckoned correct, she was pregnant and he called to the house before going off to be slaughtered, but he could only speak to her mother who he informed all his belongings would be left to her as he was the reason for her condition :-\
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Intrigued ( but saddened by the tale)
Was there a date on the will , Kerrill?
The possible birth/ death/burial records found were in 1913, and he was killed in Nov 1914 which is just over a year after the baby, Maria, died.
Boo
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Could I paste the letter on here or is that not allowed?
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Could I paste the letter on here or is that not allowed?
I am never sure about what is copyright and what isn't.
If its not too long (and you have time) you could transcribe it and that should be ok. Though if you don't have time then don't worry, I don't want to put you to any great bother just to satisfy my being nosey :-) I am just pleased that you have found more info on your family.
Boo
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The two letters which are in his will seems to imply that she was expecting in august 1914 so I should imagine the birth would be 1914 or very early 1915. One letter is from her mother and the other is from someone called Mrs Ann Clarkson who I'm guessing was her employer.
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Depending on how far her pregnancy was along, if she was pregnant in August 1914, then the baby would have been registered between Q3 1914 and, as you were allowed 6 weeks to register a birth, up to Q3 1915.
Within that period (anywhere in England & Wales)I can only see one possible male birth where the baby was registered and no MMN recorded (as she was likely to be single)
1915 Q2 Blackburn District William Edward Walmsley - mmn blank
and, using the same criteria, possible female births
1915 Q3 Blackburn District, Annie Walmsley - mmn blank
1915 Q1 Kensington District, Renie Margaret Ogle Walmsley - mmn blank
Q1 1915 Chester le Street District, Sarah Walmsley - mmn blank
Given the districts, none of these look likely, as Margaret's address on the pension index card was still that of her parents' in Preston, and there is no indication that she was claiming upkeep for a child.
Possible scenarios (pure conjecture)
1 She had a miscarriage and lost the baby before it was full term.
2 She wasn't pregnant at that time (Aug 1914), but Matthew had been stationed abroad and this was the first time he'd had the opportunity to go to see her and make amends for the child he'd fathered who had died soon after birth in 1913. (if that little Maria 'was' Margaret's which looks quite possible).
This may be one of those things we will never know.
Boo