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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: dibdab on Wednesday 30 September 20 17:49 BST (UK)
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Hi I'm after some guidance to try and solve a family mystery please!
Here are the facts:
Robert Cecil Cox: lived in Alverstoke, Gosport, Hampshire 1894 - 1918 was engaged to be married unfortunately Robert was killed in WW1 and left his fiancé with an unborn baby in the Gosport area. No living relatives have any information of his fiancé - even her name. We have made enquiries in Gosport and we cannot find anything - all details like NOK etc go back to the Roberts mother nothing traces back to anyone else. We assume the unknown lady came from the surrounding area of Gosport - possibly Fareham with to Roberts family being based there.
The Fiancé then disappeared from Gosport and she went on to have the baby also named Robert Cecil Cox, 15/02/1919, we believe born in Plymouth. He was adopted by his Uncle and Auntie Ernest & Eleanor Cox soon after his birth and they raised him as their own in Plymouth and he lived a happy long life with family of his own, he always knew he had been adopted but was never told who his real mother was and never got a copy of his birth certificate. Robert was baptised a few months later and this shows his adopted parents names shown not his paternal Mother. At this point Robert as a baby was living in St Andrews in Plymouth and his baptism suggests he was born there so at some point the fiancé of Robert has moved to Plymouth and had her baby. We do not know what happened to her and why the baby was given up - we suspect either she died in child birth or soon after or being a single parent in those days she gave up the baby to his family to give him a better life.
2 living relatives have tried gaining the birth certificate of Robert but unfortunately we cannot seem to get anywhere and have been told by Plymouth Registry office they cannot give out details even though they have visited in person with family documents etc. We have also tried Facebook, National Archives, the local records office and the Church at St Andrews with no luck.
it would just be lovely to give this lady recognition and to finally find out who she was.
I hope this all makes sense, its a very tangled mystery we would love to solve so any ideas and assistance would be much appreciated! i have included a picture of Robert Cecil Cox with our mystery relative!
kind regards
Debbie
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Hi,
The child could not have had his birth registered as Cox, he would have been registered in his mothers maiden name.
So assiming the mother registered him with the Christian names Robert Cecil and restricting the search to the first quarter of 1919 because you say he was born 15 Feb 1919, there is only one possible result on freebmd
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Robert C S Cock, mothers maiden name Cock. Dover 2a 1464. Checking this further I discovered the full name was Robert Charles Sutton Cock.
You would have to purchase the birth certificate to discover this particular mothers Christian name.
All of this is on the assumption, that you have the correct birth date and he was actually registered as Robert Cecil. You have to consider that his adoptive parents gave him his Christian names in honour of his Father and so not the names he was registered with.
Robert C Cox died August 1918, have you looked at his service records to see where he was say May 1918 to August 1918?
Spendlove
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Where has the information come from that he died in 1918.
There's no Robert Cox dying Aug. 1918 on the soldiers effects register
or the CWGC.
Who did he serve with.
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Robert died 26.8.1918
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/305714/R%20C%20COX/
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Thanks Carole
Should have thought about just using initials.
In action in mid April (Beaumont Hamel) & into
Div. reserve later until early May & then back into action again.
Div. reserve gives an opportunity to be granted leave.
The diary doesn't state who did.
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
Robert was baptised a few months later and this shows his adopted parents names shown not his paternal Mother. At this point Robert as a baby was living in St Andrews in Plymouth and his baptism suggests he was born there so at some point the fiancé of Robert has moved to Plymouth and had her baby.
Could you clarify what it says on the baptism that leads to you believe that Robert was actually born in Plymouth?
2 living relatives have tried gaining the birth certificate of Robert but unfortunately we cannot seem to get anywhere and have been told by Plymouth Registry office they cannot give out details even though they have visited in person with family documents etc.
What exactly did they ask for? I can't see any birth registrations of anyone called Cox in Plymouth within the timescale you mention, so not sure how the Register Office would be able to help?
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Hi,
What family documents were taken to Portsmouth Reg. Office?
Is there any information on the photograph I.e. name of photographer their address date etc.
What evidence do you have that they were engaged?
From post by Jim1, it is quite possible he came home on leave Late May 1918, do you have any information about this.
Spendlove
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Hi
Not at all sure about this theory, think I am just making names fit :)
Birth JFM Devonport
Robert C C Thomson mmn Harvey
Can t find a marriage before 1919 but there is a marriage in 1923 Devonport for an Edwin B Thomson and Norah F D (Frances Dorothy born 1901 but living in Plymouth in 1911)
Norah and Edwin are on the 1939 but probable children redacted.
Can t find a Robert CC elsewhere at the moment.
ADDED Sorry not likely to be as Robert C C Thomson appears to have had a twin. Another theory up the spout :( although I can t find a GRO entry for Robert even though there is one for Frederick Goodhall Thomson)
Do you know who the Florence M Bishop (single born 1900) is, who is living with them as servant in 1939?
ADDED Not twins as Frederick Goodall s entry has Occasional Copy A which suggests a change along the way.
I did find a Norah Harvey who enrolled in the WRNs in 1918 G1781 Shorthand Typist http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7432196
Cathy
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Robert died 26.8.1918
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/305714/R%20C%20COX/
On CWGC details it says he was son of Mr and Mrs William Cox. However on the Army and Navy BMD records. It gives the name of his sister as person to be notified. She was Mrs E Bucksay of 57, Village Road, Alverstoke, Gosport. perhaps she could lead to the fiancee. Sounds like he was closer to her if he gave her name for notification rather than brother Ernest.
In 1901 he has older sister Edith and younger sister Elsie, but they married Ausin and Painter, so maybe another sister somewhere.
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Found an even older sister Ethel, she married Albert Edward Bucksey (with an "e") in 1909
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When Ernest married Eleanor Wilding on 15 June 1918 his address was 77 Village Road so not far away from Ethel. The marriage took place in St John the Evangelist Westminster.
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His military papers give next of kin as his mother Susan Cox of 77 Village Road Alverstoke.
It's possible, I suppose that the child was born in the Gosport area, then taken by Ernest and Eleanor to Plymouth.
I am still interested to see what dibdab says with reference to Robert's baptism indicating that he was born in Plymouth?
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His mother's death was registered Q2 1918, so she would have been NOK when he joined up, but after her death he would have had to choose someone else. He had a number of siblings. Would he have liked to choose the fiancee but couldn't because they were not married. Did he choose Ethel because she lived near the fiancee and could get word to her more easily if anything happened? Was she also a resident of Village road?
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Looks his father was included as NOK as he was still alive in 1908 when Robert joined up but he has been crossed out leaving mother Susan(nah). looks like 77 village rd added at same time.
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Welcome to rootschat
What evidence do you have that his birth was registered as Robert Cecil ......
If he was informally adopted by his paternal relations soon after his birth it would be understandable if they named him after his father but his mother may have given him other names when she registered his birth.
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can't understand where Plymouth comes in. Ernest Cox was in the navy. His records are in two parts on FindMyPast. I can't see that he's in Plymouth between March 1918 and his discharge in 1922. Seems to move around a bit, but mainly Portsmouth area
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can't understand where Plymouth comes in. Ernest Cox was in the navy. His records are in two parts on FindMyPast. I can't see that he's in Plymouth between March 1918 and his discharge in 1922. Seems to move around a bit, but mainly Portsmouth area
Dibdab has said that Robert Cecil junior was baptised and brought up in Plymouth. There was no suggestion in the original posting that Robert senior lived there.
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I know the OP said he was brought up by his uncle Ernest and his wife in Plymouth. But uncle Ernest's military record has him elsewhere and moving several times before discharge in 1922. Aunt Eleanor was from London, so again I can't see a Plymouth connection. The naval records have the same dob as on 1939 register, so I'm sure they are the right ones.
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What a lovely photo I do hope you discover the lady.s isentity.
Have any of the descendants considered doing DNA ..?
It could throw up a distant mkutual ancestor with a family name to investigate ...good luck .
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Robert C S Cock, mothers maiden name Cock. Dover 2a 1464. Checking this further I discovered the full name was Robert Charles Sutton Cock.
That one died in 1999?
COX, ROBERT CHARLES SUTTON
Year of Birth: 1919
GRO Reference: DOR Q2/1999 in Waveney (7531A) Reg A16C Entry Number 161
Old index gives date of birth 26 Jan 1919
Nice article on Robert Cecil Cox way back in the Summer 2015 edition of 'Pot Mess' (edition no.63)
HMS St Vincent Association Members' Magazine
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1939 Register
removed
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Nice article on Robert Cecil Cox way back in the Summer 2015 edition of 'Pot Mess' (edition no.63)
HMS St Vincent Association Members' Magazine
Is that Robert snr or jnr?
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It's about senior
http://www.hmsstvincentassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Summer-2015.pdf
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Would there have been a home for unwed mothers nearby Gosport that you could check.
Since they informal adoption appears to have been arranged, travelling to pick up the baby would not be out of the ordinary.
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It's about senior
http://www.hmsstvincentassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Summer-2015.pdf
Thanks, I asked because my father was there in late '30s when he joined the Navy, and I thought it hadn't been in existence in WW1. But I see it was called Forton Barracks earlier.
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The date he got engaged to his sweetheart in the article is interesting May 1918.
National archives have a Norah Harvey joining the WRNS in April 1918 and leaving February 8th 1919 ( Robert C C was born soon after?)
Still looking at my theory in last post. Here goes..bear with me
Robert Cecil Cox meets Norah Frances Dorothy Harvey aged 17/18 while he was ashore and she was working in the WRNS at the shore establishment Lavatera? in Devonport. They got engaged and then he was sadly KIA.
She met someone else , Edwin B (beachamp?) Thomson , she had the baby Robert C C Thomson in JFM 1919 and named Edwin as father. They appeared to get married in 1923 in Devonport and are in Plymouth in 1939
Perhaps her family took on Robert jnr.
Apologies if I ve added 2 and 2 together to make 4!
The only thing I dont understand is why there are two registrations same number on Freebmd in 1919 for a Robert C C Thomson and a Frederick Goodall Thompson, Robert is not on the GRO index.
Cathy
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I see that the GRO have the below for Frederick
THOMSON, FREDERICK GOODALL HARVEY
GRO Reference: 1919 M Quarter in DEVONPORT Volume 05B Page 377 Occasional Copy: A
Info below about occasional copies:-
These are going to be instances where the original registration has been amended in some way, requiring an “occasional copy” to be sent to the Registrar General (ie to supersede the original Quarterly Certified Copy).
They won’t be late registrations, which would be sent in with the Quarterly Certified returns for the relevant quarter.
Info re obtaining an original copy:-
If a change has resulted in a re-registration of a birth, the new entry effectively supersedes the earlier one. The earlier entry remains in the index, but would have to be identified in the usual way and a copy of that earlier entry specifically ordered.
GRO would routinely issue the latest entry unless the customer specifically requests and references the earlier entry and if the earlier entry was provided, GRO would enclose a covering letter stating that this Certificate cannot be used for Official Purposes.
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Following on from that, that would probably mean obtaining this cert:-
Births Mar 1919
Thomson Robert C C Harvey Devonport 5b 377
which the GRO doesn't list.
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A Ruby Harvey married a George Thomson in Devonport district in 1910, couldn't the 1919 child be theirs?
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Looking on Free BMD the only two births which have the child's surname the same as the mothers maiden name in March 1/4 1919 are - (Robert Cecil's mother being unmarried when he was born.)
(Robert C S Cock born in Dover - he appears on the 1939 Register - so not him.)
Robert C Styles born in Abergavenny 11a 80 - I can't find him on the 1939 Register and I can't find any marriage or a death of a Robert C Styles in Abergavenny area. (of course he may have moved!)
Would be worth trying to find what the 'C' in Robert Styles name stands for.
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From the GRO
STYLES, ROBERT CHARLES -
GRO Reference: 1919 M Quarter in ABERGAVENNY Volume 11A Page 80 Occasional Copy: A
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Robert C Styles - 1919 = Robert Charles - GRO
Robert C S Cock - 1919 = Robert Charles Sutton - GRO
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Robert Charles Sutton Cock / Cox
Already mentioned in Reply #1
And eliminated in Reply #19
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Looking on Free BMD the only two births which have the child's surname the same as the mothers maiden name in March 1/4 1919 are - (Robert Cecil's mother being unmarried when he was born.)
(Robert C S Cock born in Dover - he appears on the 1939 Register - so not him.)
Robert C Styles born in Abergavenny 11a 80 - I can't find him on the 1939 Register and I can't find any marriage or a death of a Robert C Styles in Abergavenny area. (of course he may have moved!)
Would be worth trying to find what the 'C' in Robert Styles name stands for.
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Presumably this is based on the assumption that the child was registered with the Christian name Robert? But it’s been pointed out that it’s entirely possible his birth was registered under another name and that he was given the name Robert by his adoptive parents, Ernest and Eleanor.
Perhaps her family took on Robert jnr.
But the OP has stated that the child was adopted by Ernest and Eleanor Cox :-\
It would useful to have some more input from dibdab (Debbie) on this.
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Alternative to being Robert Cecil on birth reg, having no name?
March 1919 Alverstoke 2b 732
Backhouse Male
mother Backhouse
New GRO birth index has the dash for mother's maiden surname.
Don't think there is a death reg for the child at the same time, or just after.
However, I would have thought it is unlikely to be connected to this matter of RC Cox.
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"..he always knew he had been adopted but was never told who his real mother was"
Who told him that his father was Robert Cecil COX, brother of Ernest?
Surely his adopted family would not let him know that they know his mother's name...but we won't tell you. If they were not prepared to name her you might expect them to say that (known) mother had...what....died.
The man in the photo looks older than a 24 year old Robert. The woman does not have an engagement ring.....not sure how engagement rings were used in early 20th century.
You might think Robert would name the fiance as NOK.....make out a Will in her favour.
I think that the back view of the photo would be useful to see.
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You might think Robert would name the fiance as NOK
He couldn't as they weren't married. Next of kin means exactly that.
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Hi
Unless Dibdab comes back to answer the questions there is little more we can do to assist.
Think info on photo may hold clues.
Spendlove
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Enlistment files that I see have a notation against NOK to say that this does not carry a legal definition.....just person of contact.
Yes...need some input from Dibdab.
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All I can say about the photo is that it was taken after Dec. 1917
as that is when overseas service chevrons were introduced (he has at least 3).
So home leave in early May 1918 when his Btn. were in Divisional reserve
seems plausible.
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The 'Pot Mess' article said Robert became engaged during his leave spell in May 1918, though how they can be sure of it I don't know.
Perhaps he didn't have time to make sure that his girlfriend was his beneficiary if he died?
I have noticed the contrast with the case of Matthew Wignall, just last week on Rootschat
Great work by Boo!
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837890.msg7033206#msg7033206
Died 14/11/1914
Soldiers Effects - Sole legatee Margaret Walmsley
She is also named in the pension ledgers / on index card
Believed to be fiancee. Matthew did make a will.