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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: dunscore on Sunday 04 October 20 05:45 BST (UK)
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In recent times, I discovered that my Grandmother had a baby girl in 1896 whom she named Louisa Jennings Cuneen McDougall. Although adoptions in Australia did not commence until 1924, Louisa was either given to or fostered by a Mrs Jane Moss. At the time, the baby's mother, Agnes McDougall, was living with her family in Surry Hills, Sydney and Mrs Moss was in the Riverstone area.
I have no idea of the connection between my Great Grandparents/Grandmother and Mrs Moss, but they obviously kept in touch as my G. Grandparents attended the wedding of Louisa (whose name had been changed to Maud/e) in 1916, as per a wedding notice in the newspaper at the time.
I would love to find out more about this connection. Whether my mother was aware of this baby who would have been her half sister, I have no idea. Certainly nothing was ever mentioned!
I would be grateful if anyone can throw any light on this please.
Cheers,
Dunscore
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Mrs Moss had a daughter who died in 1909 in QLD
She is noted as the only daughter.
So at some time Mrs MOSS had been married (presumably) to Thomas MOSS
Death, Mary Emily Jane SWEEDMANN
09/06/1909
1909/C/3995
Mother Jane Roberts
Father Thomas Moss
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85863618
Sue
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Mary had married in QLD in 1887
Mary Emily Jane Moss MOSS
03/03/1887
Marriage registration
1887/C/1775
Spouse John William SWEEDMAN
Sue
ADDING.
You may learn something about jane MOSS and her husband by downloading Mary's marriage certificate above.
QLD marriage certificates
Date
Couple's names
Couple's ages
Couple's birthplaces
Previous status
Couple's occupations
Couple's residences
Fathers' names
Fathers' occupations
Groom's mothers name
Bride's mothers name
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So, as a possibility, for the ROBERTS/MOSS marriage here is one in England.
Marriages Dec 1867
MOSS Thomas
ROBERTS Jane
Cirencester
6a/696
I am sure this couple can be found on census 1871, but at this stage, is anything relating to what you know of the birth family origins? Anything familiar?
Sue
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Hawkesbury Herald 28 Nov 1902 p10
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66352874?
.....business in court........ names Jane MOSS...also Edward CUNEEN...
Windsor and Richmond Gazette 12 Jun 1909 p9
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85864959?
.......at the residence of Mrs MOSS (Coates' farm), who had invited her friends to
meet and celebrate the 75th anniversary of her brother's birthday, Mr Harry JONES....
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Census 1871
Living at the Anchor Inn in Cirencester Gloucestershire where he is the innkeeper.
MOSS, Thomas aged 26. Head Born Cirencester
MOSS, Jane, aged 28, wife. Born Gloucestershire, Coates
MOSS, Emily J. aged 3 , daughter. Born Gloucestershire, north Cirencester.
Sue
ADDING
I cannot locate this family in 1881
This is possibly the child's birth
MOSS, Mary Jane mms ROBERTS
GRO Reference:1868 M Quarter
CIRENCESTER Volume 06A Page 338
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"...my G. Grandparents attended the wedding of Louisa (whose name had been changed to Maud/e) in 1916, as per a wedding notice in the newspaper at the time."
Windsor and Richmond Gazette 26 May 1916 p9
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85881993?
...Maud, adopted daughter of Mrs. Jane MOSS, late of Vineyard, and now oF Parramatta , and
granddaughter of Mr. and Mrs. Malcolm McDOUGALL, Carrington Hotel, Sydney.....
This has Maud described as grand daughter to Mr and Mrs Malcolm McDOUGALL.....but does not have them attending?
SMH 11 Aug 1917 p10
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15606340?
...death of Jack McDOUGALL Galliopli....son of Mr and Mrs D McDOUGALL, Carrington Hotel ........
NAA WW1
McDOUGALL Jack : SERN 1303 : POB Sydney NSW
POE Liverpool NSW : NOK F McDougall Dougall
The people at the Carrington Hotel are Dougal and Janet McDOUGALL.
The birth certificate that you have for the 1896 birth.....can you please list all the information on it please......date and place of birth.....date and place of registeration.....name of informant.....age and birthplace of mother....
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Well, I think I will wait to hear from dunscore before offering any more findings at this stage.
A bit of direction and more background would be helpful.
Sue
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Hello everyone,
Thank you all for your help and comments re this puzzle! I did try and reply yesterday but when I hit "send", my computer said not connected, so lost the lot!!
Although the wedding notice said Mr and Mrs Malcolm McDougall of the Carrington Hotel, I feel this is a misprint as their names were definitely Dougal and Janet (nee Robertson) McDougall. Dougal was the Licensee of this hotel for many years and 3 other hotels in the inner city at various times. The Carrington is the only one that is still operating as a hotel in Surry Hills.
My husband has located a couple of articles on Jane Moss in Trove, one showing that she had been gaoled for horse stealing I think in the Tamworth area. Thomas Moss was her husband and I think they and their little daughter migrated to Australia as a family. I have not found anything further on Thomas. Did he die and she became involved with other men??
Their daughter Mary Emily Jane certainly did marry John William Sweedman and I have made contact with a distant relative in Qld. on the Sweedman side. I did know that Mary died reasonably young. Sadly this relative could not give me any info on my little Louisa/Maud/e.
Louisa's full birth name was Louisa Jennings Cunneen McDougall - Illegimate. She was born on 7 Feb 1896 at 563 Bourke St. Surry Hills, NSW, (her parent's home). Her father was not listed.
Mother's maiden name was Agnes Urie McDougall who was aged 19 at the time. Agnes was born in Glasgow, Scotland. She was the Informant of Louisa's birth. Witness was Mrs McKenzie and she was registered 14 March, 1896, Sydney. Reg. No. #00606
I have a death transcript for Jane Moss too :
Reg. No. #10400
Death - 11 June, 1927
Place of Death - Thomas Street, Northmead, Blacktown Shire (daughter's home I believe)
Old Age Pensioner, Aged 84
Cause - Chronic Myocarditis
Father's name and occupation - both unknown
Mother's maiden name - Henrietta Roberts
Buried 13 June 1927
At - Church of England Cemetery, Rookwood
Born - Coates, England
Her place and age at marriage - both unknown
Spouse - Thomas Moss (does not indicate if still alive at time of her death)
Children of Marriage - Maude 31, Living, None deceased!!
Maude was not actually a "child of the marriage" and why wasn't Mary Emily, her biological daughter mentioned - unless the informant was not aware of her existence or there had been a rift in the family and no contact either before/after Mary's death!
Jack McDougall was one of 6 sons of Janet and Dougal McDougall of the Carrington Hotel, 4 of whom served in WWI. Only one returned. Jack killed in Gallipoli.
I did look at Ancestry for an Edward Cunneen and found a William Edward Cunneen whose wife's maiden name was Jennings! As both Cunneen and Jennings are surnames, I feel there is a definite clue here as to who the father of Louise might have been. Not necessarily William though!
Jane Moss was obviously known to Edward Cunneen as per the Court article sent, so did Louisa go to Jane Moss so she could be near her biological father? As the McDougall's lived in Surry Hills and Jane in the Hawkesbury/Riverstone area, how did they know each other?
It was only through doing my DNA that all this came about - there was a very close match to me and the only one it could have been through was Agnes, which has turned out to be correct. Whether my mother was aware that she had a half sister (two as it turned out!) is something I will never know. This lady and I have had contact and was in fact a granddaughter of Louisa/Maude and she did know that Louisa had been brought up by Jane Moss but had no idea of the McDougall connection. At least I could confirm one parent for her and with photos.
Many thanks again for help and if anyone can add anything, I would be very grateful.
Dunscore
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Hi Dunscore,
There is a probate notice packet for an Agnes Urie THOMAS who died in 1950. Is this your grandmother?
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/ADLIB_RNSW113432202
I can photograph this for you next time I am at the archives if you don't have it. It may just mention a bequest to her daughter or give some clues.
Ros
adding : her death notice - she died in South Australia http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18189929
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Do you have the probate packets for your Great Grandfather and Great Grandmother as they may mention Maude and/or Jane Moss?
Do you know when /where they died? If they died in NSW and they left wills then their probate packets should be indexed here (unless they died between c1891-c1927 where there is a gap in the online index but I can check microfiche when I am there).
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
Just type the name into the main search box on home page
Ros
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I do not what you to identify people by name but can you identify them relative to Agnes McDOUGALL please -
"... there was a very close match to me and the only one it could have been through was Agnes, "
Close match between you and ......who?
"...Whether my mother was aware that she had a half sister (two as it turned out!) is something I will never know. "
Who is the other child, other half-sister? Born before or after 1896....born where?
"...This lady and I have had contact " Who are you referring to here.......the other half-sister?
Who was the informant for the death certificate, 1927, Jane MOSS?
Does this certificate say how many years Jane had been in NSW?
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Hi Rosball & Wivenhoe,
To answer your questions.
Great Grandfather Dougall McDougall died 1924 in Randwick #12660 and his wife Janet McDougall died 1929 in Belmore, NSW #678
I do have Probate packets/Wills for both. Dougal left his entire estate to Janet and she named most of her surviving children in her Will, although in both, there was no mention of Louisa/Maude or Jane Moss.
Agnes' Great granddaughter (or Maude's daughter) was the relative whose DNA was a close match to mine.
Agnes had a second child, daughter born on 8 April, 1897. Agnes had married an American in Sydney in August, 1896, only a matter of months after giving birth to Louisa/Maude. They married in Sydney and were divorced in 1900.
That baby only lived a few weeks. Her death was May 1897. She was premature.
I have had contact with Agnes' G. Granddaughter - the one whose DNA closely matched mine.
The Informant on Jane Moss' death certificate was her son in law - with whom she was staying at the time of her death.
She had been in the Colony 50 years (NSW). There was no mention of her time in Queensland.
I also have Agnes' Probate/Will and the only ones mentioned in that are my mother and her brother.
Perhaps the latter two had no idea of the existence of Jane or Maude. Agnes died in Adelaide whilst living with my parents but her ashes were returned to Sydney to be scattered at Rookwood. I also have her husband's Probate (he died in 1938 and Agnes was the only beneficiary).
Hopefully I have answered your questions.
Dunscore
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http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/deceased-search-engine
Rookwood Cemetery Plot: H_Zone C/#/6635
MOSS Jane buried 13 Jun 1927
JONES Henry
buried in same plot
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Thank you Wivenhoe,
Henry Jones was (supposedly) Jane's brother. However, when Jane's sister in England died (my husband found an article on her death some time ago) her name was 'Roberts' as was Jane's maiden name. There is some doubt as to whether Henry was being passed off as her brother as it appears that he could have been "a good friend"!
I don't know anything more about Henry other than his existence. I didn't know they were buried in Rookwood together though.
Dunscore
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Hawkesbury 1 Jan 1904 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66356178?
Mrs. A. DAVIDSON came home from Prince Alfred hospital last week after having undergone a serious operation. She is at present staying with her aunt, Mrs. MOSS, at the Vineyards, and is getting along as well as can be expected.
BDM NSW marriage
5019/1903 DAVISON Albert E x JONES Ruth @ Sydney
death
12494/1950 DAVISON Albert Edward parents James / Kate @ Windsor
55655/1972 DAVISON Ruth died at Richmond aged 96 years @ Richmond
Ancestry Electoral Roll New South Wales 1913
DAVISON Albert Edward
DAVISON Ruth at Vineyard
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just in support of wivenhoe's finding re DAVISON
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85873785
Death of Henry JONES..
"......and father of Mrs Albert DAVISON of Vineyards......"
Buried at Lidcombe C of E Cemetery .
Sue
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The marriage of Henry JONES in QLD.
Marriage
Name: Mary Ann HUDSON
Spouse Name: Henry JONES
27 Dec 1859
Number B000006a
Page Number 7058
There were a number of children whom you can find for yourself on QLD registry index.
Ruth is included -
Ruth JONES
Birth Date 20 Jul 1876
Birth PlaceQueensland
Father Henry Jones
Mother Mary Ann Hudson
Page Number 7615
Registration Number 001053
This link to an article which you may or may not have seen which confirms Henry JONES and Mrs MOSS were NOT siblings.
Mrs MOSS accompanied the JONES couple on a return trip from England and the story goes on..... ::)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/82089951
Wife desertion
Sue
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Here is some more.
It also helps with the whereabouts and what ever happened to Mr MOSS (Thomas) ::) ::)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/75655877
Sue
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This doesn't actually refer to this thread, but I was wondering how to enlarge the text so that I can read the above Trove links. The older version of Trove had a button for enlarging, this one only has a button for making the text smaller. Unfortunately I am unable unable to read the text in the above links. I am using an Android tablet. Is anyone able to asist please.
Regards
Jennaya
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For those who have been following this thread I have enjoyed an afternoon's work looking into Mrs Jane MOSS and I hope dunscore will soon be online to review the details.
Well Mrs Jane Moss was full of surprises, many of them negative. :o
How or why she managed to became the adoptive parent of your Maudie, I cannot fathom!
The links from 1884 and 1885, above which I have given describe how she came to the home of Henry JONES in the Maryborough area of Qld.
Depending on whose testimony you believe in the maintenance case, , she was brought to Australia by the JONES couple on a return trip from England to meet up with her husband, Thomas MOSS already here.
The JONES’s had been married in 1859 (B000006a) (her maiden name Mary Ann HUDSON) and among their children was James, c 1865, William and the last child to them Ruth. (1876/1053)
The certificate of the UK MOSS marriage is digitized at Ancestry and shows her surname as ROBERTS and his father’s name as William MOSS. The birth of their child Mary is noted in this thread.
The trouble seemed to begin after Mrs Moss moved in with the JONES’s and she became ‘the other woman ‘ and caused disruption to the marriage. There are conflicting stories about this situation and possibly by the mid 1870’s, Henry had moved to a home with Mrs Jane MOSS.
The next I find them is at Maryland QLD in 1890 where according to testimony, they had been known for 16 years in the district and regarded with suspicion. Together with James JONES, Henry’s son, Jane and Henry were tried and convicted for horse stealing and served time in Armidale Gaol
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/76983615
And
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251637280
The Ancestry records of them at the gaol give extra information including a description of Mrs MOSS, aged 48 who was a nurse and who had arrived in Australia in 1875. I cannot decipher the ship's name.
I have no sightings of either of them after this until Mrs MOSS appears at Vineyard. Others may have more success.
Once settled in Vineyard, there are easy to find references to her wonderful fund-raising and catering efforts and the coming and going of visitors.
I do not know at what point Henry JONES “became Mrs Moss’s brother” but the pair were absolute pillars of the church and community.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/86217974?searchTerm=%22%20%20moss%20vineyard%22~20%20-irish%20-vale
Struck by lightning ;)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85855883
She stuck to the story of siblingship with Henry JONES to the very end of his life andseemed to have persuaded others of the family to do so too.
Death notice
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16078001
I cannot quite rule in or out this report sighting of a bigamous marriage in Surry Hills for one Jane MOSS around 1891/2. I cannot see a date for the marriage and after all, Jane MOSS is not such an unusual name.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251639533
Sue
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Well done Sue :) Some very interesting finds! :o
Jennaya, I don't know if it is different on an Android tablet (but shouldn't be). This is how it appears for me with the magnify button arrowed in red.
Ros
adding : This may be more useful Jennaya - specifically how to zoom on an android
https://gadgetstouse.com/blog/2016/02/05/android-large-text-zoom/
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Thank you everyone,
I have just returned from a four day break and did not take computer. I will go through all your Posts properly tomorrow, but just glancing, there were things I certainly did not know.
Dunscore
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Thank you everyone, especially Sue for her afternoon's work. Henry Jones, Jane Moss' supposed "brother" certainly did not read in Court, as a particularly nice type of person. I can only assume that he was possibly a "father figure" for my little Louisa/Maude! However, as residents in the Vineyard area, they seem to have been the pillar of society. I did find an article on Louisa, implying that she went to Sunday School in Windsor and had won a prize.
I do have a Death Transcript for Jane (11 June 1927). Her father's name and occupation Unknown, but her mother's maiden name was Henrietta Roberts. Witnesses to Jane's death were F Morris and
W H Roberts (?) Her place and age at marriage shown as Unknown and Children of Marriage only showed Maude, 31, Living and None Deceased. Why was her only biological daughter (who was deceased) not shown too? Her Spouse was shown as Thomas Moss (not noted that he was deceased).
After the time she spent in Queensland, why was that not included? Presumably the Informant to her death knew nothing of her past life!
A Thomas Moss died at Texas Flats, Queensland on 1 April, 1912. His father shown as William Moss and it noted that he had one female child who was deceased (she died in 1909). Informant to Thomas' death was Sarah Moss, his wife, of Texas.
I cannot "fathom" why little Maude was fostered by Jane Moss either. Complete mystery and probably will remain so.
Louise's middle names of Jennings and Cunneen I feel do give a clue as to who her biological father might have been!
"Brick Walls" are meant to be broken, but this one is still firmly in place!
Once again, thanks to everyone.
Dunscore
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Can you please give the name on the DC of Jane MOSS that is in the column headed Informant.
Sue
ADDING.
Also the relationship to deceased of said informant.
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Do you have this document. I might be interesting to see how Maude describes her origins.
BDM NSW marriage
8139/1916 PETTITT Ernest marr. MOSS Maude @ Parramatta
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In recent times, I discovered that my Grandmother had a baby girl in 1896 whom she named Louisa Jennings Cuneen McDougall. Although adoptions in Australia did not commence until 1924, Louisa was either given to or fostered by a Mrs Jane Moss. At the time, the baby's mother, Agnes McDougall, was living with her family in Surry Hills, Sydney and Mrs Moss was in the Riverstone area.
Cheers,
Dunscore
Well, a bit of a search around and I cannot get any sightings of Mrs MOSS living in the Riverstone area at the time of the infant's birth. She seems to appear there later.
There is a Sands Mcdougal Directory entry for
Mrs Jane MOSS listed at 26 George Street Glebe in 1897
As you may know, a common way of placing children with carring people to act as parents was a simple advertisement in a newspaper.
With this in mind, a long shot might be this below.
The NSW BMD index shows the birth of Louisa had been registered by the date on this advertisement (18th April 1896)
The initials A M shown as identity for contact could be Agnes McDOUGALL.
Just thoughts ;D
Sue
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Wow Sue,
How on earth did you find that bit of info? Well done and could be Agnes McDougall advertising for someone to take poor little Louisa. I had no idea that one used to be able to put an advertisement in a newspaper for adoption/fostering! No checks as to suitability were carried out in those days it would appear. I think this is a very good assumption, especially as Jane appears to be living in Glebe - much closer to Surry Hills too. Crown Street runs parallel to Bourke Street, where the McDougall family lived. Jane was well into her fifties when she gave Louisa a home. Apparently age was no barrier either. Although I think Agnes' father was reasonably well off, with so many still living in the family home (a two storey Terrace) including several little ones, I guess there just wasn't room to keep Louisa too. Maybe Agnes' parents were not happy about a child out of wedlock too!
The Informant on Jane Moss' DC was "E Pettitt, Son in Law, Thomas Street, Northmead. Registered on 13 June 1927, Parramatta".
I don't have a Marriage Cert. for Maude to Ernest Pettitt. I could phone his relative (whose DNA was close to mine) and ask if she has one. I will check on that thankyou Wivenhoe.
It would be wonderful to see if a Mr Cunneen or a Mr Jennings was indeed the biological father of Louisa. Guess a descendant of one of them would have to do a DNA and have a close match to me to prove that and also be on Ancestry!
Thank you again,
Dunscore
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Hello Wivenhoe,
I spoke with my relative and she has sent through a copy of Louisa/Maude's marriage to Ernest Pettitt.
On the left hand column it reads : "Maude Moss was handed over in legal form to Jane Moss, who adopted her".
Further down : The Consent of - "Jane Moss, foster mother of the bride" was given in writing, etc.
Maude was only 20 at marriage, hence the consent.
They married on 26 April, 1916.
I am assuming that Jane considered Maude to be her "adopted" daughter rather than "foster" daughter as Adoptions (as I understand it) did not come into being in Australia until 1924.
Dunscore
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It would be wonderful to see if a Mr Cunneen or a Mr Jennings was indeed the biological father of Louisa. Guess a descendant of one of them would have to do a DNA and have a close match to me to prove that and also be on Ancestry!
Thank you again,
Dunscore
Speculation is easy, but without documentary evidence I think you will not know the true facts.
A possibility is that the Louisa JENNINGS part of the name maybe in consideration of a kindly friend, and the CUNNEEN part being the father.
Living not too far away in Elizabeth St Redfern was Mrs Louisa Sophia JENNINGS. She died in 1919.
It looks as if these JENNINGS were well placed financially and perhaps there was an association of some sort with Agnes.
You can search them yourself.
You have said Agnes was living with her own family in 1896, but giving birth in the family home does not assume she had been living there, unless you have evidence tp the contrary.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Yes, I realise it is all "speculation" at present, but several boxes are ticked and I would certainly like to think this is the case. Jane living at Glebe at the time, Agnes having already registered Louisa's birth and the initials A M and the post office in Crown Street! All that makes sense.
In August of 1896, Agnes married an American from Chicago (John Peter Burns) who would have been about 27 years old. Agnes had another daughter to him the following March and according to the birth certificate, Violet was born at 7 months. Her death seven weeks later was caused by (amongst other things) malnutrition. According to their Divorce papers (in 1900) he appears to have been a nasty gentleman, leaving Agnes "without visible means of support" and being violent and abusive!
Of course, there is a possibility that Burns could have been the father of Louisa and not wanted her, hence her being advertised. Did Agnes know Burns at the time or was it a quick relationship prior to their marriage 4 months after Louisa had possibly gone to live with Jane?? So many questions.
The marriage to Burns does not tell me much other than his father's name and the father was deceased when they married. I have no idea what happened to Burns and I haven't explored that path.
Agnes married my grandfather 3 years after her divorce. Whether my mother knew any of her mother's past life, I will never know. Seems as though there were a number of skeletons in the closet!! Sadly there is no one left to ask.
Thank you for all your help and insight into this thread.
Dunscore
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Are you able to show us the part of the birth certificate that shows the birth at 7 months? I didn't think this information would be shown.....wonder if it was put there to cover up a pre-marriage conception.
Regards
Jennaya
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Hi Jennaya,
The baby I am concerned about, Louisa (later name changed to Maude) was born out of wedlock, in Feb. 1896. She lived until in her eighties.
Agnes' first actual marriage to John Peter Burns was in Aug. 1896 and their daughter Violet was born the following March. On her Death Transcript her Cause of Death is noted as "Premature Birth 7 months, Inanition". Her father was the Informant to her death on 27 May, 1896 and she was buried the following day.
Cheers,
Dunscore
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Sorry Jennaya,
That death was 1897, not 1896. Violet was aged 7 weeks at death.
Dunscore
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Hi Jennaya,
The baby I am concerned about, Louisa (later name changed to Maude) was born out of wedlock, in Feb. 1896. She lived until in her eighties.
Agnes' first actual marriage to John Peter Burns was in Aug. 1896 and their daughter Violet was born the following March. On her Death Transcript her Cause of Death is noted as "Premature Birth 7 months, Inanition". Her father was the Informant to her death on 27 May, 1896 and she was buried the following day.
Cheers,
Dunscore
Thanks, this makes sense now - it was the death certificate showing premature birth.