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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: OzzieJoan on Wednesday 07 October 20 03:42 BST (UK)
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Good morning everyone,
I have recently bought the Court Probate Record for a Will from 1592 and can read nothing more than the name of the man who I hope will turn out to be my 12xg.g.f. Can anyone please recommend a translation service that is actually in operation at the moment? It seems that both Manchester and Leeds University translation departments are down due to COVID.
Does anyone know if one of our Australian Universities have such a service?
Hopefully I will be able to attach a section of the document for reference.
Thanks,
OzzieJoan
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It isn’t Latin
For instance the third line of small writing down says
“Bradford, sicke of body but of”
A couple of lines down it says “forme following”.
If you post the bits after that, which will be the important bits others may help. But have a go yourself ;D
If you just keep looking at it, (now you know it is English) You will find words gradually appear.
For instance the word commonly before each bequest is Item. And it is there on the 7th line (not counting the bold heading “ In the name of God”
Item yd (and) it is my will that John
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As Mckha says, this is written in English and not Latin.
You will not need to get it 'translated'.
If you'd like to post, say, the first third of the first page, on here, no doubt there will be people who can transcribe it for you, and then you could have a go at the rest. Or if you still can't get it, post a bit at a time for transcription.
The last line of the little bit you have posted says 'younger sonn Thomas Mortimer and...."
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Well, isn't that strange none of the 4 "translators" I have asked for a quote has told me that it isn't Latin.
He did have a son Thomas, but his death pre-dated the father; not to say that he didn't have one later in his life. His son John died the same year as his father but later.
Tomorrow I will chop it up into smaller pieces and post a section for help.
I am of very poor sight and unable to attack it myself. Waiting for Cornea transplants yuk!
Thanks, I will return tomorrow.
OzzieJoan
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Well, isn't that strange none of the 4 "translators" I have asked for a quote has told me that it isn't Latin.
OzzieJoan
Were they going to do this for a fee? ;)
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Oh, yes indeed, Goldie. One quote which didn't comment on the language was $140.
Yesterday I spent a long time trying to find a 16C alphabet with comparable modern letters alongside. It took a long time as all others just gave a single image for each letter. But finally I found just what I needed and will attach it on here in case anyone else out there has need of it.
I am half way through my attempt and plan to continue. At the end I will post what I think I have managed to find, together with the relevant original section for the many corrections it will surely need.
Perhaps today I will also see if I can find common phrases, similar to that which Mckha quoted "Item yd (and) it is my will that John". I see there are several instances of just a single letter being used and think they might be short forms of simple phrases.
I don't think it is my 12 x g.g.f. as I have yet to see the name of his spouse. Fingers crossed on that one. But I am enjoying the challenge :D
So, here is the alphabet I mentioned.
Thanks and I shall return,
Joan
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You should have asked! :)
There would be lots of people here who could have steered you towards 'The Secrtary's Hand' style of writing.
Perhaps you had fun searching for it.
You certainly found an interesting one that gives several variations for each letter. Always useful.
We look forward to seeing how you got on. :)
By the way, the word after 'Item' in the piece you posted is 'yt'.
Here, the y is the equivalent of an 'i'. This is found quite frequently.
So this yt = it - 'it is my will .......'
'y' was often also used as what is called a thorn, and stands for 'th' (it never was 'ye old village tea shop'!)
So you get 'ye' - the; sometimes 'yt' - that; etc
etc.
2 classic hints:
'S' was often written as a 'long s', which to us can look like an f, especially if it was 'double s'.
The lower case letter 'c' in secretary's hand looks like a modern day 'r'. An easy one to trip up on.
Both these come in the word after 'Bradford' on line 4.
A 'long s', 'i', 'c' (which looks like an 'r'), 'k' and 'e', so 'sicke'.
So he's 'sicke of bodie.......'
Good luck!
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:) Yes, Goldie, and still having fun. This morning I have fallen over "The Secretary's Hand" and added lots of abbreviations and common phrases to my knowledge bank.
Back soon, I hope.
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added a bit to my previous post
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Item yd (and[/s]) it is my will that John
. See Goldie’s post #6 for a correction of this!
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Thanks Goldie for the additional information. I have downloaded 5½ printed pages this arvo, and now your extra makes it up to 6! I am enjoying it but very little time to spare. I tend to get my nose into anything to do with FH and all else goes out the window. I have my main meal of the day in the middle of the day - today it was 2.45 before I sat down to it ??? Crazy or what?
Hopefully I will chat again soon.
Everyone is so very kind and helpful on this Forum.
Joan
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:D Attached are the section of the Probate that I have worked on to date, as well as the meagre amount that I have been able to work out - or perhaps guess might be a better word. I find that Wills are written in a very careful hand, whereas this Secretary's Hand is positively dreadful. If it is possible for you to take a look to see if I am on the right track, I would be grateful.
Thanks,
Joan
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Joan I have just unlocked your topic so that folk can reply to you.
Regards
Sarah
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Thank you, Sarah. I am an idiot and apologise for the trouble.
Joan
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Hi again, now that Sarah has kindly unlocked my topic after I stupidly locked it, I will post a further section for scrutiny.
However, I will not have time to chop it into pieces and Post until quite late in the afternoon tomorrow,Tuesday in Oz.
The first third of it hasn't confirmed, or otherwise, that this is the Probate for my 12 x g.g.f. so it's Press Forward, as the Mortimer Motto says. ;D
I will be back soon.
Joan
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I have done the transcript from the first proper item after the formalities.
...Item yt is my will that John my sonn have twentie poundes
To be taken up of my whole goodes uppon condic(i)on that he make
agood and sufficyent estate of all the [newe?] lanndes sett lyinge
and being in Clayton conteyninge aboute twelve akers unto my
yonger sonn Thomas mortimer and his heires for ever. And one house
[onn?] the greene w(i)th thappurtanances for and...
However it may be better to first establish whether this is actually the will of your ancestor. Are you able to tell us what you would like to find which would either confirm or deny that it is the right person?
Secondly, is this a Prerogative Court of Canterbury will? I couldn't find it on TNA Discovery.
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As Joan inadvertently locked this topic yesterday (see above), I asked the mods to see if it could be unlocked. Thank you Sarah.
Meanwhile, I sent Joan a PM with the first part transcribed, and as she says, she's still could not be sure if this is her ancestor. She is hoping for the name of a wife.
She will post some more later.
It is not from TNA HD, she had to buy it from Leeds University - a Borthwick will I believe.
(I agreed with your 'newe lanndes' by the way).
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Thank you Goldie and Horsleydown. Between you, and my own meagre efforts, I now have everything down to the Probate, which you say is in Latin. And still no nearer to finding any connection to my family. Definitely not the 12 x g.g.f. I was hoping for as his wife's maiden name would be BEST, not NORTHEND - the name of Thomas's father in law.
However, I have others of the same name (Thos.Mortimer) around the same time and will see if I can find a connection to one of them.
As suggested by you, Goldie, I am just about to post under the title Latin Probate as a new topic to see if someone can translate the Probate part for me.
As far as I am concerned, this topic can be closed. Do I do that myself or is it done by the Moderator, please?
With gratitude and thanks,
Joan
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Definitely not the 12 x g.g.f. I was hoping for as his wife's maiden name would be BEST, not NORTHEND - the name of Thomas's father in law.
At this time the term father-in-law could also be used for a second or subsequent husband of a person's birth mother.
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Horsleydown - so are you saying that this John NORTHEND could be the stepfather of said Thomas and not necessarily the father of his wife, Johanne BEST? If so, I can't see any way to sort it.
OzzieJoan
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Horsleydown - so are you saying that this John NORTHEND could be the stepfather of said Thomas and not necessarily the father of his wife, Johanne BEST?
Yes; as it was used at the time, the term father-in-law can have both meanings.
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Horsleydown - so are you saying that this John NORTHEND could be the stepfather of said Thomas and not necessarily the father of his wife, Johanne BEST?
Another avenue to follow, then. Thanks for that.
Yes; as it was used at the time, the term father-in-law can have both meanings.