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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: mothball on Saturday 10 October 20 11:21 BST (UK)
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Hello, I just cannot decipher this name from 1891, it looks like it begins with P. Many thanks.
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Penbolar on google.
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Hhmm bit of a head scratcher this one ::)
It certainly begins with Pen but the rest of it is uncertain. It looks like Penlolar but there is no place of that name that I can see in Cardiganshire.
Have you checked other census records for this person to see what they say?
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I checked Dulaigh's suggestion but whatever Pen Bolar is it is not in Cardiganshire. As I said earlier it may be a good idea to check other census records for this person.
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Many thanks for the suggestions, I don't know if we are allowed to write his name, but I can only find him on the 1891 census, he was married twice in South Wales.
This census is from Llanwonno, Pontypridd, South Wales. With his first child.
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On the line below is his wife born in Talybont Carmarthenshire, and then the child born in Ferndale Pontypridd.
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Of course you can provide a name, the 1891 census was 129 years ago. So if you would like to provide his name, year of birth and his wife's name as well, we can have a look for you.
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Thank you very much, he was John Owen Thomas, born about 1856 in the name above. I have looked at the register and there is a suitable match. December 1857 in the registration district of Aberystwyth.
He married his second wife Mary Davies in 1889 in Ferndale Pontypridd. The first child is on the 1891 census and the second child was born in 1894 but the mother died in childbirth and there is also a suitable register for the death. In 1901 the children are living with the mother's mother. One Ann Davies, Born 1839 in TalyBont cardiganshire. They are living in Pontypridd South Wales. I can't find John Owen Thomas in 1901 and I can't find any suitable death register.
I do have the marriage certificate and his father is down as John Owen. Not with a Thomas at the end. His occupation on his marriage certificate matches that of the census in that he is a underground fireman.
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I think these are the reference numbers you need for that particular census
Registration district Pontypridd
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 4412
Folio 5
Page 10
Record set 1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
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I did find the census record myself.
I agree that the most likely birth record is this one:-
THOMAS, JOHN OWEN ROBERTS
GRO Reference: 1857 D Quarter in ABERYSTWYTH Volume 11B Page 63
I'll have a look at other census records and see what I can find.
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Just checked the Second child's birth certificate and it puts the mother Mary Thomas formally Davies as deceased, and the father John Owen Thomas. 1894 Pontypridd.
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What was dad's occupation and who were the witnesses on the marriage cert?
Sometimes the name John can be Evan in Wales.
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The father's name was just John Owen (deceased), occupation 'carrier'. The two witnesses are an aunt and uncle of Mary Davies.
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Do you have the marriage certificate from John's first marriage? When was it and to whom?
I assume that on his second marriage to Mary he was stated to be a widower?
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Sorry for late reply, yes he was down as widow but I didn't want to bring that up as it might complicate things because the age.
If he was born in Dec 1857 and married Mary in 1889 that doesn't give much room for another marriage but I found one in Glamorgan in 1874 and he would've been 17 but again because of the abundance of the name Thomas and there were two options for a first wife one was a Jane Davies and the other was a Margaret Williams, so looking for a death between 1874 and 1889 is asking too much from the register. Sorry this particular tree is full of very common Welsh names.
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There are only three marriages between 1874 and 1889 for a John Owen Thomas in Wales. One is for the 1889 marriage which you have.
The other two are:-
Marriages Sep 1874
Davies Jane Merthyr T. 11a 605
LEWIS Daniel Merthyr T. 11a 605
Thomas John Owen Merthyr T. 11a 605
Williams Margract Merthyr T 11a 605
Williams Margraet Merthyr T. 11a 605
Marriages Jun 1887
Jones Jane Llanrwst 11b 566
Jones William Llanrwst 11b 566
Price Jane Llanrwst 11b 566
Thomas John Owen Llanrwst 11b 566
You will have to decide whether to obtain the certificates or see if they can be found any other way.
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Oh thanks so much you are going through so much trouble to help. Yes I thought it was the Merthyr Tydfil one as that is in south Wales whereas the other one is at the top of North Wales, and therefore thought it very unlikely that he would move up there first. But you never know.
It's a difficult one this one as without establishing where he was born we can't order a birth certificate. And would it be worth just guessing that the Merthyr Tydfil marriage was the correct one. I appreciate all that you have been looking but I do think I should concentrate on where he was born. There seems to be a community of people from Cardiganshire who moved to South Wales for the coal mines. My Jones family came from Cardiganshire and settled in South Wales
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I think the place of birth for John Owen Thomas is Pentalar. There is a Pentalar near Blaenporth Cardiganshire. He is also on the 1911 Census in East Rd Tylorstown with both daughters and another wife married 8 years (she was widowed and has a son John Samuel Jones b.1887 Tylorstown. John Owen Thomas died 1914 - THOMAS, JOHN OWEN aged 53 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 626
He's buried in Ferndale cemetery along with his wife Mary.
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Well that looks good Sam, can you provide me with the number in East Road where he is living in the 1911 census or one of the names of his daughters.
I can then look it up myself. Thank you.
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Sorry I can't find that senses in 1911, his two daughters were
Ann Elizabeth Thomas born 1890 Ferndale and
Gwladys Thomas born 1894 Ferndale.
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There are complications with the children that's why I didn't mention them before. As I have said Mary died in 1894 and in 1901 the two girls are living with their maternal grandmother Ann Davies in. Ystradgynlais, Clamorgan. In 1911 Glwadys is living aged 11 with her step mother Bowen. Her sister was not to be found as she had married.
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Second daughter
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Penbolar may be a homestead or farmstead. Bolar is a Yorkshire name; Penbryn is in that county.
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This looks like the death that Sam is referring to.
THOMAS, JOHN OWEN 53
GRO Reference: 1914 J Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 626
Gives a birth year of 1861 for which there is the below birth
THOMAS, JOHN OWEN OWEN
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in LLANRWST UNION Volume 11B Page 344
Are they the right ones?
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Find a Grave does have a burial record for a John Owen Thomas. The photo is useless as you cannot see any details on it and the birth year for this John is unknown.
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Penbolar may be a homestead or farmstead. Bolar is a Yorkshire name; Penbryn is in that county.
. Yes, there is one in Cardiganshire as well. I was brought up near a place called Pen-y-Bryn, somewhere else.
Pen means head or top
Bryn hill or mountain
Quite a common place name I think. Least also in Caernavonshire and Devon. Excuse my old County references, I left Wales in 1975, so am on older County names
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I don't want to waste anyone's time here. It does seem one of those we come across doing family trees where dates/places/names are not correct. I am doing this for a friend, but to be honest the tree is full of Thomas/Davies/Williams/Bowen et all. I have two other blockages on top of this one. I am also on the Family Search website and am not getting anything new there.
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Can't find a Pentalar in Blaenporth area, it may have been too small to be identiied by name on the early OS maps.
John Owen Thomas Grave has no headstone https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/162934206/john-owen-thomas
His first wife is buried in same grave plot P29 A - https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/131994086/mary-thomas
1911 Census or 222 East Road Tylorstown -
Class: RG14; Piece: 32392; Schedule Number: 239
Marriage in March 1903 to Ruth Jones Pontypridd 11a 673
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Just popped in to say that I agree with Sam - Pentalar. It;s definitely not a b as the other bs on the page have a loop. Also, the ts in the word are not crossed.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CGN/Blaen-porth
Using my very rusty Welsh - isn't talar a type of field??
Just found this ~
https://glosbe.com/cy/en/talar
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Ah, it's a place no longer there, my grandfather in South Wales lived in a village that is now a street.
Found this on Zoopla
https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/pentalar/llantood/cardigan/sa43-3nu/20781766
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Pentalar, Cardiganshire
https://goo.gl/maps/QYebvLX9sa7p8RdL6
Thank you all so much
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This is the place of birth as shown on the 1911 census.
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Thanks, I find the spelling in Wales something to be desired, even my grandmother's entry in the registry is Olive N, When in fact is Olwen May. Are the children on this census? Don't worry if they are not. Thanks for the help.
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They are, the full list of people at 222 East Road is:-
John Thomas - 51 - 1860 - Underground brakesman - Penstor, Cardigan
Ruth Thomas - 52 - 1859 - Aberdarem, Glam.
Ann Elizabeth Thomas - 21 - 1890 - Ferndale, Glam.
Gwaladys Thomas - 17 - 1894 - Ferndale, Glam.
John Samuel Jones - stepson - 24 - 1887 - Tylorstown, Glam.
William David Jones - " - 20 - 1891 - " "
Sarah Jones - stepdaughter - 18 - 1893 - " "
John has not given his second name of Owen, nor does this appear on the marriage record for 1903. His year of birth is three years later than the one we have been chasing.
However as Ann Elizabeth appears on the 1891 census with John as John Owen, he has to be the same one.
You could get the 1903 marriage cert to see who he names as his father, if at all.
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The children Gwladys and Ann Elizabeth both living with father and step mother and step-brothers at the address .
Not had much luck in finding John on 1901 census though.
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Oh dear, I have the two sisters on the 1901 Census with their Grandmother, in the Parish of Ferndale with same age as yours and earlier. But I also have Gwladys on 1911 with a step family as she married using the surname Bowen and she is on a 1911 census with two other step children of the step grandmother with the surname Bowen. The dates of John Owen marrying the Bowen woman who then died all matches in.
I was given this tree to sort out as this sounds sound, but so does the other version as it was passed down orally that Gwladys Davies on the birth cert was brought up by a Bowen family.
I shall have to get back to my friend.
thank you all once again.