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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Tickettyboo on Sunday 11 October 20 12:11 BST (UK)
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VC-8B1R?i=536&cat=825277
In the column headed If Purchased, Number of Entry in Register of Purchased Graves, there are lots which seem to say out
I don't want to email the cemeteries dept at the moment as they will have many other more immediate duties to attend to, probably with reduced staffing levels.
Has anyone ever seen an explanation of this notation?
I am leaning towards perhaps rights to burial could be purchased for x amount of years and if not renewed then this could mean it was out of lease so available for other burials - but that is just a wild guess, not based on any knowledge :-)
Boo
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In municipal cemeteries there are Purchased Graves where the applicant purchases the Exclusive Right of Burial in this grave, effectively forming a private grave and giving the family of the deceased control of any future burials in that grave. The owner of the Right must give written permission before any burial can take place in a purchased grave. The Exclusive Right has a fixed term - usually 100 years after which time control of the grave is returned to the relevant authority.
Stan
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In municipal cemeteries there are Purchased Graves where the applicant purchases the Exclusive Right of Burial in this grave, effectively forming a private grave and giving the family of the deceased control of any future burials in that grave. The owner of the Right must give written permission before any burial can take place in a purchased grave. The Exclusive Right has a fixed term - usually 100 years after which time control of the grave is returned to the relevant authority.
Stan
Thanks Stan, I do know about purchasing rights of burial and the purpose of the column.
I am just trying to ascertain what this 'out' may have referred to.
Boo
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The first entry here says
"Out of date"
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VC-8B28?i=51
I am also Out...of my depth!
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The first entry here says
"Out of date"
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VC-8B28?i=51
I am also Out...of my depth!
Thanks jonw65 :-)
Ok, Boo's straw clutching wild guess no 2 then :-)
Maybe, you had an option to purchase the rights for x amount of time after the burial.
If the option wasn't taken up by the relatives of whoever was last interred, then it was classed as 'out of date' and regarded as an available space.
lol I can keep the theories up for ages, again based on no knowledge - but at some stage the world will get back to what passes for normal and I'll ask the cemeteries dept - though they too may not know all these years later :-)
Boo
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Hi
I am sure you are right Boo, broadly speaking. Hopefully the cemetery people will be able to fill in the fine detail when things get back to normal.
Looking at your example pages it seems to be about 20 years and then appx 15 when the graves might have become available again? It doesn't seem very long.
John
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Looking at your example pages it seems to be about 20 years and then appx 15 when the graves might have become available again? It doesn't seem very long.
John
Thanks. Yes, that thought did occur to me after I posted - which is where straw clutching wild guess 2 came in :-)
Wondering about the 'possible' explanations keeps me occupied while I search for the definitive or, 'on balance the most likely' explanation :-)
Boo
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Hi
I am sure you are right Boo, broadly speaking. Hopefully the cemetery people will be able to fill in the fine detail when things get back to normal.
Looking at your example pages it seems to be about 20 years and then appx 15 when the graves might have become available again? It doesn't seem very long.
John
The relevant authority retains control of the burials in these graves. Burial Law used to require a 14 year interval between successive burials in one of these graves, (unless the deceased were from the same family), but this law has since been repealed.
Stan
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Thanks, Stan
14 years. That's very interesting.
I think now that I can remember you mentioning it before. I must read up on those burial laws!
John
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Thanks Stan
I wasn't aware of that, but it would explain it being 'out [of date]' and not a straw in sight! :-)
Off to look for burial laws!
Boo
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I realise I am kicking the backside out of this :-) . . . but
Depending on 'when' this law was repealed, Stan's explanation may well have solved another puzzle.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VC-C97J-C?cat=825084
That is a grave register I was looking at yesterday. Grave 6871 on the right hand side of the page.
5 burials between 1921 and 1957- the grave was not purchased according to the relevant column.
The earliest 4 burials were
William Myers 1921, Jane Myers (William's wife) 1923, Andrew Forrester (their grandson) 1930, and Alfred Myers (their son) 1936. All the same family so the 14 year rule between interments would not apply, even though it wasn't a 'purchased grave'.
Alfred's entry is marked as 'out' so I can now assume that note was added either in 1950 (14 years after his interment) or whenever the time limit law was repealed.
and the final burial was Arthur Bond - (I can find no trace whatsoever that this man was related to the other grave occupants) in 1957.
Thank you! I do like it when I finally understand what has happened, when and why!
Boo
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Just to give you another straw to chew over, when a grave is first dug, there is a limit to the number of burials it can contain without disturbing the previous burials. So perhaps the entry of 'out' may mean it is out of consideration for other burials.
Colin
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I'll add that straw to my haystack, thanks Colin.
I do think Stan may have cracked it with the time limit between burials for non related people, though I haven't yet been able to track down when it applied and when it was repealed.
Boo
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I'll add that straw to my haystack, thanks Colin.
I do think Stan may have cracked it with the time limit between burials for non related people, though I haven't yet been able to track down when it applied and when it was repealed.
Boo
It was 2007 when I first posted that Burial Law used to require a 14-year interval between successive burials. Unfortunately, I cannot remember where I saw that quoted, and I cannot find any reference to that on the internet. Apparently, the Local Government Board made regulations for burials in burial grounds provided under the Burial Acts and for cemeteries provided under the Public Health Act 1879. so it may have been a regulation made by the board. (The Local Government Board was a supervisory body overseeing local administration in England and Wales from 1871 to 1919.)
Stan
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From https://www.southtyneside.gov.uk/article/34740/Choosing-a-grave
Unpurchased Graves: The council ensures that there is an 8 year interval between successive burials in these graves (unless the deceased were from the same family).
Stan
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Thanks for both posts Stan. Though I obviously missed your original 2007 post about it, this rule about length of time between burials has answered a lot of questions for me.
I have lots of instances where family members are in the same unpurchased grave and always assumed that the cemetery was being nice and tried to bury families together if possible even if they hadn't paid for the burial rights.
I now realise that though they may well have been being nice, they were also ensuring the most efficient use of the available space.
Boo
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From https://www.southtyneside.gov.uk/article/34740/Choosing-a-grave
Unpurchased Graves: The council ensures that there is an 8 year interval between successive burials in these graves (unless the deceased were from the same family).
North Tyneside seems to be sticking to 14 years!
"Families who choose not to purchase the rights to a grave are offered a grave which has previously been buried in (minimum of 14 years ago) with depth remaining for a further burial. "
https://my.northtyneside.gov.uk/category/560/burials
But what about all the big, privately owned cemeteries round London? They shoved loads of unrelated people into the same common grave within a few days?
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I have the original papers that in 1914 my grandfather paid 8s 6d for "the exclusive right of Burial for fourteen years"
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:-) Super things to have.
We have one from an RC cemetery in Liverpool dated 7th Jan 1918 where the fee was £3 12s. It doesn't mention a time frame but says quite clearly at the bottom:
"No interment can take place in this grave unless upon production of this certificate". So presumably this one did not have a time limit to it.
and the back of the cert shows that it was produced for each of the 4 subsequent burials which were noted by the cemetery staff with the names and burial dates.
Boo
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My OH has some "grave papers" relating to a local cemetery. Interesting, he realised that two burials had taken place in there in the time he's had these papers, and no-one contacted him concerning them. Both are actually related to the family - but not the same surname the grave papers were issued in.
Good job neither of us want to go in there! But someone paid for that right.