RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: robert g shaw on Sunday 11 October 20 12:22 BST (UK)
-
Hi
There are several missing records of known marriages, i was wondering why this was. These pertain to the Standish areas. The odd thing is that there are a lot of records for their children, but none anywhere including outside of Lancashire for the marriage.
If they had a catholic wedding would that make a difference? but if they did why baptise their kids in a C of E church where that was recorded.
The missing weddings are..
Thomas to isabella c1735
Alexander to Jane c1710
Alexander to Ellin c1658
John to Ann c 1636
-
Missing from what database. You have not given us a surname
-
This may be a silly question, but why are they "known marriages" if they cannot be found?
Did all these couples have children and where were they baptised?
Where have you looked (such as FamilySearch or Lancs OPC)
The possibilities seem to be:
The CofE Parish Registers have not been fully transcribed.
The surnames have been mistranscribed.
The marriages took place outside the local area.
The marriages were not in a CofE church - they were RC or nonconformist.
No marriages took place.
Without knowing the surname and the local parish (and the source of your information) I don't see how we can help in the search.
Philip
-
Surname is probably SHAW ;D
If the database you are using is Lancashire OPC marriages for Standish don't start until 1653.
-
Missing from what database. You have not given us a surname
Stupid me... Its Shaw
-
This may be a silly question, but why are they "known marriages" if they cannot be found?
Did all these couples have children and where were they baptised?
Where have you looked (such as FamilySearch or Lancs OPC)
The possibilities seem to be:
The CofE Parish Registers have not been fully transcribed.
The surnames have been mistranscribed.
The marriages took place outside the local area.
The marriages were not in a CofE church - they were RC or nonconformist.
No marriages took place.
Without knowing the surname and the local parish (and the source of your information) I don't see how we can help in the search.
Philip
Because their baptisms were recorded and many referred to the "wife" by name.
Yes ive done all the regular sources, they record the baptisms which usually took place quite soon after marriage.. but not the marriage, they even have some of the spouses baptisms 30 odd years previous. Ive viewed the registers online and found no omissions in dates.. just no record of the marriage.
Yes ive searched other areas... There is one for Thomas and Isabella in York, but i have no idea why Thomas should have been in york.
Reading the Wills, im sure these people married as they were clearly god fearing.
Where could i view RC or non conformist records? there was a quaker presence too..
cheers
-
Surname is probably SHAW ;D
If the database you are using is Lancashire OPC marriages for Standish don't start until 1653.
yep... but family search have them online going back further, and 3 of those marriages were after 1653.
:)
-
The missing weddings are..
Thomas to isabella c1735
Alexander to Jane c1710
Alexander to Ellin c1658
John to Ann c 1636
Familysearch have the Bishops transcripts, Looks like they are missing the dates you are looking for.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/551007?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Standish baptisms, marriages and burials (text in Latin), 1611, 1616, 1620, 1623, 1627, 1630-1633, 1636-1639, 1641;
Standish baptisms, marriages and burials (text in English), 1662-1665, 1668-1686; 1691-1698.
Standish baptisms, marriages and burials, 1785-1805;
-
There are non-conformist records on both Family Search and on Ancestry (if you subscribe)
However - as far as I know all marriages, even for those with Non-Conformist and RC beliefs, had to take place in a C of E Church - EXCEPT for Quakers and Jews, who were allowed to hold their own ceremonies.
After 1837 they could be held in a Non Conformist or RC Church, but a Registrar had to be present.
-
The missing weddings are..
Thomas to isabella c1735
Alexander to Jane c1710
Alexander to Ellin c1658
John to Ann c 1636
Familysearch have the Bishops transcripts, Looks like they are missing the dates you are looking for.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/551007?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Standish baptisms, marriages and burials (text in Latin), 1611, 1616, 1620, 1623, 1627, 1630-1633, 1636-1639, 1641;
Standish baptisms, marriages and burials (text in English), 1662-1665, 1668-1686; 1691-1698.
Standish baptisms, marriages and burials, 1785-1805;
well i found a baptism, so thanks for that!
-
It's possible that the 'missing' years are missing, but they may simply be unreadable.
A trip to Lancs Archives at Preston may be your last throw of the dice, Covid permitting.
Eric
-
It's possible that the 'missing' years are missing, but they may simply be unreadable.
A trip to Lancs Archives at Preston may be your last throw of the dice, Covid permitting.
Eric
oh ill not be doing that, lol, too far, too fiddly, ive been and got photos of wills that have proven invaluable as they mentioned people not on record.
its ok, seeing the record would only give me the date and brides surname, id like those, but...hey ho..
-
However - as far as I know all marriages, even for those with Non-Conformist and RC beliefs, had to take place in a C of E Church - EXCEPT for Quakers and Jews, who were allowed to hold their own ceremonies.
The missing marriages were all prior to Hardwicke's Marriage Act which came into force 25th March 1754.
There is no marriage record for one set of my Catholic 5x great-grandparents. They would have married 1752 or 1753, pre-Hardwicke, perhaps in an illegal Catholic ceremony. 1767 Return of Papists gives information that 5xGGM was not born in the parish and how many years she'd lived in the parish. First known child of the marriage was born 1753. My other 5x great-grandparents in that parish married 1757, post-Hardwicke and therefore had to comply with the new marriage regulations. They went to the Anglican church for their legal marriage. They had already gone through a Catholic wedding ceremony. Their wedding was one of the earliest in the marriage register of the Catholic mission. A new priest arrived in 1754 and started keeping registers. R.C. registers in England before this time are rare. Being a Catholic priest was illegal and a register was evidence of illegal acts. Many priests moved around their mission area, often on horseback, had to travel light and might have had to quit their lodging in a hurry or go into hiding to avoid discovery.
-
It's possible that the 'missing' years are missing, but they may simply be unreadable.
This from the page for St. Wilfrid, Standish on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks:
"Many of the records were in poor shape and Bishop's Transcripts and other sources were assessed to determine the original entry."
"1701, 1708-March 1711, October 1711-March 1712, 1713-1739. Not all these records were legible or could be used reliably."
Added. Standish Parish Resources www.lan-opc.org.uk/Standish/index.html
Years of existing parish records of St. Wilfrid.
List of adjacent parishes and townships, foundation year of churches and starting years for registers.
-
It's possible that the 'missing' years are missing, but they may simply be unreadable.
This from the page for St. Wilfrid, Standish on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks:
"Many of the records were in poor shape and Bishop's Transcripts and other sources were assessed to determine the original entry."
"1701, 1708-March 1711, October 1711-March 1712, 1713-1739. Not all these records were legible or could be used reliably."
Added. Standish Parish Resources www.lan-opc.org.uk/Standish/index.html
Years of existing parish records of St. Wilfrid.
List of adjacent parishes and townships, foundation year of churches and starting years for registers.
ahhh... that would account for two on my missing marriages.. thanks.
-
Parish or place home-pages on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website are often informative.
Another site I refer to in GENUKI. Normally includes foundation year and whereabouts of surviving registers for each church. Pages for Standish https://www.gen.uki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Standish
There was a Catholic mission, founded 1728. St. Marie of the Assumption. Registers date from 1742 with substantial gaps.
Marriage register of St. Marie from early 19th century has been transcribed and is on LANOPC.
Added. Link to GENUKI doesn't work. Search for Standish Lancashire GENUKI.
-
The missing weddings are..
Thomas to isabella c1735
Alexander to Jane c1710
Alexander to Ellin c1658
John to Ann c 1636
Familysearch have the Bishops transcripts, Looks like they are missing the dates you are looking for.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/551007?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Standish baptisms, marriages and burials (text in Latin), 1611, 1616, 1620, 1623, 1627, 1630-1633, 1636-1639, 1641;
Standish baptisms, marriages and burials (text in English), 1662-1665, 1668-1686; 1691-1698.
Standish baptisms, marriages and burials, 1785-1805;
Those transcrips are very interesting, thanks, but how do i fiond neighbouring parishes transcripts?, i cannot find them, its a rather confusing site..
Rob.
-
Deleted, not relevant :-\
-
which neighbouring parishes are you looking for?
-
which neighbouring parishes are you looking for?
any that border standish... croston in particular.
-
Croston records are available on Lancashire opc site - marriages from 1538.
Added: Ancestry say they have records from 1538 for Croston, plus BT's from 1600.
-
Croston records are available on Lancashire opc site - marriages from 1538.
Added: Ancestry say they have records from 1538 for Croston, plus BT's from 1600.
ahhh thanks, i found them on the ops site.... cant find them on ancestry, can only see the standish ones thanks to a link posted on this thread :)
-
I have found my map of Lancashire Parishes
To the north of Standish were the parishes of Chorley and Leyland 1651 to the West was Eccleston and within that was Douglas, to the south was Wigan and within that Upholland and Billinge, to the east was The church at Rivington from 1703 which was in the parish of Bolton le Moors, Horwich from 1660 which was in the parish of Deane and Blackrod from 1607 which was also in the parish of Bolton le Moors.
You could also look at wills to see if that gave any places for the family or where the spouse cane from which might be where they married.
-
A county map showing parishes is on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website.
www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html
You can then look at the home page for each parish to see list of churches and which register transcripts are there.
I use the Ancestor Search pages on LANOPC (under "Search" in menu) when attempting to find people in nearby parishes. Select parish, in this case Standish as the starting point.
Enter ancestor's name or just surname if it's not a common one, year +/- up to 20 years; enter a distance in the distance box e.g. 5 miles. List of results will show distance from your chosen central church in Standish. I tried it for my Roby ancestors whose earliest records in Standish were 1770's and found a few possibilities for baptisms of my 5xGGM in adjacent parishes.
Another source for locating churches is GENUKI. Can see a list of churches in a place or do a search for churches within a chosen radius, filtered by denomination if required, and see them marked on a map. Markers on maps are colour-coded by denomination; red = C. of E. Click on a marker for name and foundation year of a church.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Standish
Select "Nearby Churches". Churches within 3 miles radius will appear on the map.
Information on GENUKI, like LANOPC is provided by volunteers.
-
I have a similar problem with missing marriages in Lancashire in the early - mid 1700s, some of the families were Catholic or non-conformists (they're in the 1767 papist list) and I've had a wee bit of luck linking people using Lancashire Wills (freely available online via Familysearch). It's a bit time consuming but quite good fun...
This is a good link to start with (can also be checked against Lancashire Archives catalogue)
http://user.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm
-
The most likely neighbouring places for missing early Standish marriages are Eccleston and Wigan.
CofE Baptisms and burials, if not at Standish, are possibly at Coppull (which was a chapel-of-ease to Standish), Blackrod (which was a chapel-of-ease to Bolton St. Peter's) and Euxton (which was a chapel-of-ease to Leyland St. Andrew's), besides Eccleston & Wigan. Douglas Chapel was a chapel-of-ease to Eccleston.
Separate Euxton records begin in 1711; before then events might be in the Leyland registers.
Euxton St. Mary's RC records start at 1740, from the private chapel in Euxton Hall.
Chorley St. Gregory RC has records from 1802.
-
thank you everyone :)
-
I have a similar problem with missing marriages in Lancashire in the early - mid 1700s, some of the families were Catholic or non-conformists (they're in the 1767 papist list) and I've had a wee bit of luck linking people using Lancashire Wills (freely available online via Familysearch). It's a bit time consuming but quite good fun...
This is a good link to start with (can also be checked against Lancashire Archives catalogue)
http://user.xmission.com/~nelsonb/lws.htm
Same here, mostly with one line who were property holders and business owners. I've just looked for them at that link again. There's a will for the wife of one (he was her 2nd husband) and I noticed that he styled himself "gent.". He and his brother-in-law (husband of the wife's sister) were sued for debt the following year and he had to sell his house.
No will results for my R.C. lowly ag. lab. ancestor with a locally common name. However there are other wills which may or may not have been relatives and which may provide information to help build up family groups.
Marriage licences, leases, manorial records and quarter session proceedings are other sources to try.