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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: groom on Sunday 11 October 20 21:53 BST (UK)

Title: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Sunday 11 October 20 21:53 BST (UK)
Posting here as it includes Brecon and Radnorshire and Liandod, and Hereford, and London, and Gloucestershire!
Greensleeves and I are working on the history of a mill in Wales. We have discovered a mystery with one branch. This is what we know:

Beatrice Mary Selena Renders was born September quarter 1869 Builth, Brecknockshire, Wales., motherís maiden name Phillips. We can find no marriage of a Sarah Phillips and a Renders apart from one in Kensington, London in March quarter 1869 when a Sarah Louise Phillips married and Alfred Hector Maximillian Renders. There is no sign of this man either before or after the marriage.

In 1871 Beatrice (listed as Mary Renders)  and her mother Sarah Renders (married) are with Sarahís mother Selina Phillips in Builth. No sign of her father, but Sarah says she is a seamstress, wife of a teacher.

In the June quarter 1872, Sarah Renders married Alfred Handley in Builth. They are together in 1881 with several children. Beatrice is still with her grandmother.

1891 Beatrice is back with her mother and stepfather in Maesmynis.

In 1911 Beatrice is in Gloucestershire with her "husband" Henry Froggatt, born 1862 Holme Lacy Herefordshire, a commercial traveller in farm machinery. They claim to be married 15 years, but again no sign of a marriage. Interesting that in this census Beatrice claims to be born in London. They donít have any children. In 1901 Henry is lodging in Cumberland but it doesnít give his status.

Beatrice M S Froggatt dies in Abergavenny 1933 aged 64.

Can anyone find:
Another Phillips/Renders marriage.
A marriage for Beatrice Renders to Henry Froggatt
Beatrice Renders/Froggatt in 1901
Any sign of the mysterious Alfred Hector Maximillian Renders.

We know we could get the marriage certificate and Beatriceís birth, but as it is a distant branch donít want to unless really necessary.

Thanks
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 11 October 20 22:31 BST (UK)
The 1869 marriage looks likely to have been Catholic. The other couple on the page, Patrick Brosnihan and Ellen Nunan, feature in an online tree which says that they married on 10 January 1869 at St Francis of Assisi Catholic Church, Pottery Lane, Notting Hill.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 11 October 20 22:34 BST (UK)
Beatriceís birthdate looks likely to have been around June or July 1869 - going by her age of 1yr 9mo in the 1871 census.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Sunday 11 October 20 22:53 BST (UK)
The 1869 marriage looks likely to have been Catholic. The other couple on the page, Patrick Brosnihan and Ellen Nunan, feature in an online tree which says that they married on 10 January 1869 at St Francis of Assisi Catholic Church, Pottery Lane, Notting Hill.

Thanks, so that confirms a Sarah Louise Phillips did marry a Renders. Unfortunately although some London marriages are on line, that one doesn't appear to be. Odd why we can't find him before or after. If it is the right marriage it must have been him who was Catholic as her family weren't.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 11 October 20 23:21 BST (UK)
Are you aware of Mabel Elizabeth Renders, birth reg Sep qtr 1871 Builth, died Jun qtr 1873 Builth?
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Monday 12 October 20 00:00 BST (UK)
Yes spotted that one, which is a huge coincidence. The GRO has no mother's maiden name for her which is a nuisance.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: Annette7 on Monday 12 October 20 02:25 BST (UK)
A single tree on ancestry also has the marriage date as 10/1/1869 (like the other couple) - no source given, of course, but does state Alfred's father was named Jean Baptiste Renders and that Alfred was bc.1843.

Annette

Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: avm228 on Monday 12 October 20 08:32 BST (UK)
Jean Baptiste Renders has a Belgian feel to me.

I wonder what Alfredís teaching subject was (a language, perhaps?).
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 12 October 20 09:29 BST (UK)
The 1869 marriage looks likely to have been Catholic. The other couple on the page, Patrick Brosnihan and Ellen Nunan, feature in an online tree which says that they married on 10 January 1869 at St Francis of Assisi Catholic Church, Pottery Lane, Notting Hill.

Same page ref back in 1869, so the marriage is in the Registrar's book, either it took place at the Register Office or the registrar was in attendance.
Bur not necessarily catholic...

It seems that the Notting Hill marriage of Brosnihan and Nunan is available online (England Roman Catholic Parish Marriages) But no Renders marriage is indexed there :(
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: avm228 on Monday 12 October 20 09:43 BST (UK)
The 1869 marriage looks likely to have been Catholic. The other couple on the page, Patrick Brosnihan and Ellen Nunan, feature in an online tree which says that they married on 10 January 1869 at St Francis of Assisi Catholic Church, Pottery Lane, Notting Hill.

Same page ref back in 1869, so the marriage is in the Registrar's book, either it took place at the Register Office or the registrar was in attendance.
Bur not necessarily catholic...

It seems that the Notting Hill marriage of Brosnihan and Nunan is available online (England Roman Catholic Parish Marriages) But no Renders marriage is indexed there :(

Oh I see. I had imagined that the shared page numbers would indicate successive entries in the Roman Catholic register of that particular church - but I see that you are right, and that in fact the Brosnihan/Nunan marriage was the only marriage in that church in the Jan-Mar quarter of 1869. (The previous one was 28 November 1868 and the next was 11 April 1869).

So I wonder whether in fact the Renders/Phillips marriage was a register office marriage which took place shortly before or after the Brosnihan/Nunan church marriage.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Monday 12 October 20 09:46 BST (UK)
Quote
    It seems that the Notting Hill marriage of Brosnihan and Nunan is available online (England Roman Catholic Parish Marriages) But no Renders marriage is indexed there             

Thatís typical isnít it?

I wonder if he went back home and left her as there is no trace after the marriage.


Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: Girl Guide on Monday 12 October 20 10:04 BST (UK)
Just for information:-

This looks like Henry's birth

FROGGATT, HENRY       CHILLICHAMP 
GRO Reference: 1861  D Quarter in HEREFORD & DORE  Volume 06A  Page 432

There is a Henry Froggatt in the 1939 register with a birth date that fits the above birth reg.  He is stated as being married.

If I have the right Henry he died in 1940

Deaths Dec 1940   
Froggatt    Henry    79    Hereford    6a   1370
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: louisa maud on Monday 12 October 20 10:24 BST (UK)
Is this of any interest to you?, you have this census but what about Arthur Handley?

1871 RG105574 FOLIO 29 PAGE 12

Renders, Handley and Phillips all living with or next door to each other

There is also a marriage 1872 Sarah Renders to Alfred Handley

Don't want to confuse you but just a thought

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: avm228 on Monday 12 October 20 10:33 BST (UK)
Perhaps Alfred Handley was the natural father of Mabel Renders b1871 (though Mabel died in 1873 as Renders rather than Handley, even after the 1872 marriage, and might perhaps have been likely to take on the Handley name if heíd been her father).
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: louisa maud on Monday 12 October 20 10:38 BST (UK)
At least 4 children born
Handley MMN Phillips all born Builth

1873 John Alfred Theophilus  died 1900
1874Hariet Sarah
1875 Theophilus Cecil  marr 1903
1877 Hugh Percy died 1877

I have no wish to confuse you but is it just a coincidence

Louisa Maud

modified additions
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: louisa maud on Monday 12 October 20 11:09 BST (UK)
1891 RG12/4567 F 108 P8

Alfred Handley  42 occ miller
Sarah 46
John 18
BEATRICE M S RENDERS 27 STEP DAUGHTER
Theophilius (different spelling ) 15
Phillip 12

If I am on the wrong track I am sorry  but it is just a coincidence

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: avm228 on Monday 12 October 20 11:11 BST (UK)
I donít think youíre on the wrong track, Louisa Maud - groom mentioned the Handley marriage and subsequent census entries in the opening post :)
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: louisa maud on Monday 12 October 20 11:16 BST (UK)
OOPS, optician here I come

LM
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Monday 12 October 20 11:52 BST (UK)
OOPS, optician here I come

LM

Yes, thanks for looking, but we do have all that. The Handleys are the actual family we are following, but to add interest to the story we are building up as much information as possible about the sidelines.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Monday 12 October 20 11:59 BST (UK)
Just for information:-

This looks like Henry's birth

FROGGATT, HENRY       CHILLICHAMP 
GRO Reference: 1861  D Quarter in HEREFORD & DORE  Volume 06A  Page 432

There is a Henry Froggatt in the 1939 register with a birth date that fits the above birth reg.  He is stated as being married.

If I have the right Henry he died in 1940

Deaths Dec 1940   
Froggatt    Henry    79    Hereford    6a   1370

That looks like him, but unless he remarried, he was in fact a widower, as Beatrice died in 1933.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: Girl Guide on Monday 12 October 20 12:35 BST (UK)
There is a marriage of a Henry Froggatt to an Edna Brown in 1936, Nottinghamshire. There is a blacked out line under his name.  No idea who that would relate to.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Monday 12 October 20 13:47 BST (UK)
This is driving me mad, so I've ordered Beatrice Mary Selena Renders' birth certificate, due the 16th.  That should prove if her father is the elusive Alfred Horace Maximilian Renders. Will keep you updated.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: louisa maud on Monday 12 October 20 13:53 BST (UK)
Will look forward to the info

Did you find a baptism?

Louise Maud
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Monday 12 October 20 14:48 BST (UK)
Unfortunately not.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Tuesday 13 October 20 20:29 BST (UK)
Well, I'm certainly impressed with the GRO pdf  service - ordered yesterday and arrived 25 hours later!
Beatrice Mary Selena Renders was born 10th July 1869 at Mill House, Llandridnod. Mother Sarah Renders formerly Phillips father ALFRED HECTOR RENDERS - he was a teacher of language.             
                                                                                                                                                 

So the mystery deepens, where was he in 1871, he wasn't with Sarah. Also how was she able to marry Alfred Handley in 1872, just 3 years after her marriage to Alfred Renders?
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: louisa maud on Tuesday 13 October 20 22:07 BST (UK)
I think the Renders surname was miss transcribed on , from memory, 1891 to Penders, perhaps just put his Christian names in on 1871 and see what comes up for Alfred

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: barryd on Tuesday 13 October 20 23:55 BST (UK)

Jean Baptiste Renders was born on May 3 1858, in Overijse, Brabant Wallon, Belgium, to Pierre Joseph Renders and Anna Maria Renders (born Kumps).

Renders seems to be from Belgium.   
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Wednesday 14 October 20 00:24 BST (UK)

Jean Baptiste Renders was born on May 3 1858, in Overijse, Brabant Wallon, Belgium, to Pierre Joseph Renders and Anna Maria Renders (born Kumps).

Renders seems to be from Belgium.

Thatís brilliant, where did you find that, please?  Just realised though, that cant be Alfred Hector Renders father if he was born 1858 as heís far too young as Beatrice was born 1869!
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: Girl Guide on Wednesday 14 October 20 08:19 BST (UK)
Could Jean Baptiste be a brother or cousin?  Perhaps Pierre was dead at the time of Alfred's marriage or he misunderstood the question about father.

Just a guess.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: Millmoor on Wednesday 14 October 20 08:31 BST (UK)
Try a general search in Familysearch, Groom. There are a number of records in Belgium for various Jean Baptiste Renders including a death in Liege in 1876  and born 1827.

William
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: Greensleeves on Wednesday 14 October 20 20:24 BST (UK)
Thanks everyone for your input here.  Jan and I  have really struggled to work out what's been going on with some members of this family!  I've just put things in chronological order, to get my head around what was going on, as much as to help everyone else:

1869 (Jan?) - Marriage in Kensington of Alfred Hector Renders (address unknown) and Sarah S Phillips of Radnorshire, Mid Wales.
1869 Sept Q - Birth of Beatrice Mary Selina Renders in Builth, Wales
1871 census (2 April)  - Sarah Renders and baby Beatrice are living at Mill House, Llandrindod Wells, with Sarah's mother.  Also there as lodger and miller is one Alfred Handley.
Sept 1871 - Birth of Mabel Elizabeth Renders, Builth
Jun Q 1872 - Marriage of Sarah Renders  to Alfred Handley, Builth
Jun 1873 - Death of Mabel Elizabeth Renders

Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: louisa maud on Wednesday 14 October 20 20:31 BST (UK)
Have you got the marriage certs  1869 and  1872,  the last one will be interesting as to her status
I am assuming that Alfred must have returned to his homeland or Sarah must have assumed he had died

Louisa Maud
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Wednesday 14 October 20 21:11 BST (UK)
Have you got the marriage certs  1869 and  1872,  the last one will be interesting as to her status
I am assuming that Alfred must have returned to his homeland or Sarah must have assumed he had died

Louisa Maud

As these are side lines on the tree, we are not really sure whether it is worth the £22. We mainly wanted to know Beatrice's father to see if that was the correct marriage in London. We aren't sure that the 1872 one would be of any help, as the chances are Sarah may have said she was a widow, and that won't prove anything.

What would be great now would be to find out what happened to Alfred Hector Maximillian after the marriage and before 1871. Sarah obviously went back to Wales for the birth and stayed there. The chances are that the second baby was Alfred Handley's but would be registered as a Renders as that was her mother's name.

As Chris said, this family like to confuse - we had the wrong wife for another member for ages, as she decided to marry as Elizabeth Jane Handley when she was really just Jane Handley! 
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: louisa maud on Wednesday 14 October 20 21:17 BST (UK)
Yes, they are certainly giving you the run around

LM
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: Greensleeves on Thursday 15 October 20 20:41 BST (UK)
Jan and I started following the family as they were millers at the mill we're researching, but the more we find out about them, the more interesting they become.   I am sure their stories would make a really interesting historical novel.  Our main heroine was born into a milling family in Mid Wales, married a lad from another well-known milling family, and helped her husband to run the mill. She and her husband seem to have raised their grandson, and when he grew old enough he helped with the milling.  After her husband died, our heroine ran the mill with the help of her grandson and when she died, he became the miller.  Then things seem to have gone wrong but we don't really know why.  The grandson bought the mill (it was previously leased) but his wife became ill, and she ended up in an asylum in South Wales whilst he was living nearby with his daughter, and working as an overground colliery labourer. Another family had taken over the mill.  There are so many facets to the stories surrounding this family I bet Jan and I will still be doing our research five years hence.  Because every time we think we're about ready to start writing the story down, we find another interesting character to follow.
Title: Re: Beatrice Mary Selena Renders mystery.
Post by: groom on Thursday 15 October 20 21:22 BST (UK)
As Chris said, we have uncovered some lovely snippets especially from newspapers. For instance the grandson's wife had a fit and fell into the mill trench but luckily was rescued by neighbours. His sister was deaf and dumb and we found her at a school in one census, and a lovely description of her marriage from the papers - she married someone who was also deaf and dumb. The service was conducted by two vicars, one from Birmingham assisted by the local vicar. It would be nice to think that the one from Birmingham signed the service.