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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Littlebn20 on Monday 12 October 20 14:45 BST (UK)
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Hi there. I wonder if anyone might be able to help.
My maternal grandmother was given away at birth and through the absolute wonder of DNA & Ancestry, we were able to identify her birth mother as Katherine Emily Bayliss. We have never identified her father. She was born out of wedlock and the individual who holds the key to solving the puzzle (very close match on Ancestry, which we know is from my Grandmothers biological father) is unwilling to help/co-operate. Anyway, there is a letter that Katherine sent to her mother at the time regarding a gentleman referred to as 'Sented'. She says that they 'had the new series and stayed up to 11pm' and had some 'stock in bed'. There is sadly no date on the letter. I just wondered if anyone might have any idea what the new series could refer to and if there is any common use for the word Sented that anyone was aware of, that might help me vaguely date the letter?
Katherine was born in 1898 and My grandmother was born in 1921. They were both located in the North of England at the time.
Additionally; my mum matches to the unwilling relative on Ancestry as Shared DNA: 406 cM across 13 segments
Unweighted shared DNA: 406 cM
Longest segment: 78 cM
She has a similar match amount to a granddaughter of Katherine's, so we are guessing that one of the individuals grandfathers is my grandmothers bio father, but does anyone have any further advice on this?
I apologise, I find the DNA matching thing quite complex as I have difficulty processing numbers. Any help gratefully received.
Hope all makes sense. Letter too large for me to attach apparently.
Beccy
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Hi Becky,
I might be completely wrong with this, - but the first thing that went through my mind for ‘sented’ was Senior Ted, - i.e. the elder Edward?
Are your tests on Ancestry? If so, you could always try uploading to a few other Sites, and see if you can find some more helpful matches on them.
Some people just don’t want to know re: DNA tests, - I’m sure that most of us have had similar experiences.
Best of luck anyway,
Romilly.
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Thank you Romilly, that is an excellent point regarding a senior Ted! I have uploaded my DNA to every which site that I can think of, but nothing really springs out at me. :)
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Can you tell us the whole context in which the word 'sented' appears? Are you able to upload the relevant section as opposed to the whole letter?
Is there any address on the letter?
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Same here - wanted to know the context.
Saw the words: stock, bed, sented, to me that is someone talking about growing night-scented stock in a flower bed. (They have poor spelling)
Are you absolutely sure of the words/spellings/letters?
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The file size is too large; so I have transcribed as best as I can;
Side 1
Letter folded in to three sections
Dear L (in black and Katherines writing)
To Sented (in black and Katherines writing)
Katherine Emily Bayliss (in blue, not her writing)
12 Entwhistle Sreet
Moss Side
Then the body of the letter is in Katherines writing, in black ink;
For my letter this week I will write to you about Dear Sented. Sented is the name of a lovely Gentleman who lives in (&) Churchill Street Manchester. It was Sented birthday last Saturday and we stayed up to supper and we had stew for supper and sented has a lot of presents and enjoyed the day very much and we had some stock in bed, we had the new series we stayed up till eleven oclock and had a good time. But you know Sented was the head of it all. I remain your loving daughter. Catherine.
Have transcribed as written. Apologies for the lack of punctuation.
Worth noting, she was married by 1926 (to Charles) and my grandmother was born in 1921.
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Same here - wanted to know the context.
Saw the words: stock, bed, sented, to me that is someone talking about growing night-scented stock in a flower bed. (They have poor spelling)
Are you absolutely sure of the words/spellings/letters?
Good point. Have transcribed the letter and quite clearly refers to scented as a gentleman. :P
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Does the handwriting look like a young child's or that of an older woman?
This sented lives in Churchill Street, Manchester. Have you tried checking electoral rolls for this address?
So either the letter was written pre 1921 or before she married.
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What date are you guessing for the letter?
Was Katherine a child at the time (can you tell from the handwriting?)
Snap Girl Guide
Added: and do you know who 'L' is?
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Can you post a clip of 'Sented'?
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It might help us if you could manage a picture of the "Sented" word where it arises in the text.
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Have you looked at mutual matches with the high.Match on ancestry sometimes a more distant relative will be more willing to help search .
Am assuming that the grandaughter doesn't match this person ...which is how you know they are from birth father's side .
My aunt had a similar level match which we've been trying to analyse
Eventually someone who was a child of an adoptee turned up and solved the mystery .
Mystery match was a full second cousin they shared great grandparents.
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What date are you guessing for the letter?
Was Katherine a child at the time (can you tell from the handwriting?)
Snap Girl Guide
I genuinely have no idea regarding date, hence my curiosity is anyone knew what the new series might be? I don't get the sense that she is a child by her writing, however it is possible based on the slight rambling and over-excitement. When I look at the L, it in fact looks like the way that she does her S' and may have been a mistake/first effort.
Added: and do you know who 'L' is?
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Have you looked at mutual matches with the high.Match on ancestry sometimes a more distant relative will be more willing to help search .
Am assuming that the grandaughter doesn't match this person ...which is how you know they are from birth father's side .
My aunt had a similar level match which we've been trying to analyse
Eventually someone who was a child of an adoptee turned up and solved the mystery .
Mystery match was a full second cousin they shared great grandparents.
Ah, how interesting! Yes, exactly that. No match with the granddaughter or her relatives but matched to me, my mums half sister (same mum, different dad).
All the other matches are far more distant, but may begin trying to unpick!
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Initial thoughts:
Would be really helpful to see the letter and see if we have other suggestions for SENTED - can you reduce the size to be able to attach it?
- is signed "your loving daughter" and addressed to two people "Dear L" and "To Sented" So is "L" her mother? What was her mother's name? Seems strange to sign off as a 'loving daughter' but not say Dear Mother/Mum etc
- refers to "for my letter this week" which sort of suggests there was a weekly contact/letter, was it a letter from school to a relative? Is that why the name and address are in a different handwriting/ink?
- the reference to 'stayed up for supper' suggests a child rather than an adult
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Every way I have attempted to upload it, it remains too large :(
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Have reeduced size, but now think it is unreadable
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Why don't you do some cropping to get it to a suitable size? If you click the Save a Copy button you will still have the original.
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https://www.rootschat.com/links/01pxr/
This is a great link from the Photo Board re scanning - just in case it might help
Otherwise, scan in parts?
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https://www.rootschat.com/links/01pxr/
This is a great link from the Photo Board re scanning - just in case it might help
Otherwise, scan in parts?
Thank you :)
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It's actually clearer to read if you open your profile where you've attached it as your photo!
However, would be helpful to see the salutations at the beginning - Dear L, To Sented etc
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Great! That was my attempt at getting around it. I shall update my profile picture with that one shortly. Thank you for all of your comments and suggestions.
Beccy
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Let's try this...
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and this....
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Nothing to do with the letter, just I cannot see a birth in 1898 for Katherine Bayliss in north of England - have you a reference for it?
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My huge apologies. I got the date wrong. It is 01/06/1892 • 1, thompson, street, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
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My huge apologies. I got the date wrong. It is 01/06/1892 • 1, thompson, street, Ardwick, Lancashire, England
Ah, I had found two families in the 1911 in Churchill Street at nos 2 and 4 who don't seem to relate, but maybe it is when Katherine is about 10 so I will see if I can see anything in the 1901
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I think the 'Dear L' is actually the start of 'Dear Sented', and then it's been changed to 'To Sented'.
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If I have tracked backwards correctly on the Bayliss line, Katherine's grandfather was called Henry. Could he be Sented?
I'll try the maternal line and see what comes up there.
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On the 1911 Census, 2 Churchill St is a Boarding House.
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On the 1911 Census, 2 Churchill St is a Boarding House.
This is making sense! Thank you for all of your work.
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I think the 'Dear L' is actually the start of 'Dear Sented', and then it's been changed to 'To Sented'.
Agree with this.
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On 1901 is Katherine's father a widower - so who/when is she writing to?
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My guess is that the writer of the letter is 10-12 years old?
Good handwriting and spelling, but less confident about punctuation. And the writing slopes a bit.
So date of writing 1902 onwards?
It's puzzling me why it's a weekly epistle and whose daughter she is, if it's addressed to (Mr) Sented.
Surely the daughter of widowed William Bayliss as Chempat says
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I was going to suggest that the address at top is where she is staying so Sented could be another person staying there
Do you need help with triangulating DNA matches
One tip I have ..try putting Manchester in location for shared matches you can look at the ones which match your mother her half sister and you .
Also add potential father ...and use colour code dots for all matches which.share with the match.you already have add different colour for all those that.have Manchester locations.
You may start to see a surname coming up in shared trees
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On 1901 is Katherine's father a widower - so who/when is she writing to?
Also I see that the address on the 1901 Census for the family is 2 Churchill Street!!
I think it may be a joke letter from Katherine to her father. Perhaps he smoked a pipe? Perhaps she went to bed late, but blamed him?
Was The New Series a magazine?
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On 1901 is Katherine's father a widower - so who/when is she writing to?
Great detective work!
Her mother died in 1899! So either written when she was very young (seems unlikely from the writing)? or the letter is to her father, who I believe was very religious and strict so likely to be aout someone he approved of.
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On 1901 is Katherine's father a widower - so who/when is she writing to?
Also I see that the address on the 1901 Census for the family is 2 Churchill Street!!
I think it may be a joke letter from Katherine to her father. Perhaps he smoked a pipe? Perhaps she went to bed late, but blamed him?
Was The New Series a magazine?
Amazing. Starting to think that this is correct as all makes sense!
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Katherine was born in 1892 and had the illegitimate birth in 1921, so is aged 28/29.
I believe the letter is written years before, and I think is when she was a child. I think the hand writing fits a child as does the content.
If it were written when she was an adult, then I would think it is using very unusual language/content for an adult child to their parent.
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On 1901 is Katherine's father a widower - so who/when is she writing to?
Great detective work!
Her mother died in 1899! So either written when she was very young (seems unlikely from the writing)? or the letter is to her father, who I believe was very religious and strict so likely to be aout someone he approved of.
Well, maybe the religious and strict part came if he disapproved (as very likely at the time) of the illegitimate birth.
Perhaps as a widower of a relatively large family he was more humorous and jokey when they were young? If so that gives you maybe a better impression of him?
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But how on earth did you get hold of this letter if Katherine gave up the baby ....your grandmother
Could sender be.a diary ...very common at time maybe she was writing a diary as if talking to her mother..I think is seems like a teenager
From electoral rolls can we find how long her father lived there ?
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By 1911 her father is no longer at Churchill Street. The family was living there in 1901.
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Gosh, - this has progressed by leaps and bounds, since I last looked...
It makes much more sense being able to see the letter!
Romilly :)
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Great idea to put letter as a profile picture but I didnt realise it was there til several posts
Catherine signed with a C but all other sources have it with a K .
How / where / by whom was this letter saved .?.
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Great idea to put letter as a profile picture but I didnt realise it was there til several posts
Catherine signed with a C but all other sources have it with a K .
How / where / by whom was this letter saved .?.
It was found with her belongings when she died.
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Great idea to put letter as a profile picture but I didnt realise it was there til several posts
Catherine signed with a C but all other sources have it with a K .
How / where / by whom was this letter saved .?.
It was found with her belongings when she died.
I think it's a lovely little snapshot of a jolly family evening which she recorded jokingly for her father.
Perhaps she regretted that her father disapproved of her pregnancy and (possibly) thought she'd disgraced the family. And this was a memory of a happier time.
I just made that up, of course. ;)
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So was your grandmother in contact with her birth family or has this been shown to you by her descendants. ? Either way its lovely that it was preserved ...my nana kept a letter of rejection from her birth mother but when my aunt found it among her possessions she was so upset she threw it away .
Btw
my mother had a 336 cm match I dont think.he'd have responded if I hadnt worded it right
I said did you have a grandmother...called ...L..R..
When he understood the connection it was hard to accept that his grandmother had had a baby before marriage . So the match was same grandmother different grandfathers
You cant do that until you.have a potential surname
Maybe reach out again in a few months . especially if you have potential surnames
. Saying
.".have you got a great uncle or grandfather who lived in moss side area around 1920 "
There might be more clues in 1921 census
Good luck with this search and thanks for posting such an exciting mystery
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Great idea to put letter as a profile picture but I didnt realise it was there til several posts
Catherine signed with a C but all other sources have it with a K .
How / where / by whom was this letter saved .?.
It was found with her belongings when she died.
I think it's a lovely little snapshot of a jolly family evening which she recorded jokingly for her father.
Perhaps she regretted that her father disapproved of her pregnancy and (possibly) thought she'd disgraced the family. And this was a memory of a happier time.
I just made that up, of course. ;)
I like this idea :)
The family never knew of her pregnancy or my Nan's existence. Katherine continued to have contact with my Nan until she was around 6/7 (As auntie Kath) at which point she was told that Her real mum had moved to Rhodesia. We discovered that Katherine married and had her legitimate daughter at around that time and Katherine lived not far away the whole time :(
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Re New Series.
Couldn’t this just refer to a new serialised book? Could be anything.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_(literature)
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When did Katherine live at Entwistle street. # *(answering own question: its their address in 1911 shes a clerk and has sisters )
Still dont understand how the letter got from.addressee to you .!
Igor your scenario is very believable ..
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When did Katherine live at Entwistle street
Still dont understand how the letter got from.addressee to you .!
Igor your scenario is very believable ..
Catherine is living in Entwhistle Street in 1911 with her father and 5 brothers and sisters.
The reference to "stock" in bed made me think of oxo or bovril as a treat?
There are several trees on Ancestry that have attributed a father to Catherine's daughter, but without any references for the reason!
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So was your grandmother in contact with her birth family or has this been shown to you by her descendants. ? Either way its lovely that it was preserved ...my nana kept a letter of rejection from her birth mother but when my aunt found it among her possessions she was so upset she threw it away .
Btw
my mother had a 336 cm match I dont think.he'd have responded if I hadnt worded it right
I said did you have a grandmother...called ...L..R..
When he understood the connection it was hard to accept that his grandmother had had a baby before marriage . So the match was same grandmother different grandfathers
You cant do that until you.have a potential surname
Maybe reach out again in a few months . especially if you have potential surnames
. Saying
.".have you got a great uncle or grandfather who lived in moss side area around 1920 "
There might be more clues in 1921 census
Good luck with this search and thanks for posting such an exciting mystery
And thank you very much for helping! It's been lovely to dive in to it with you all. So, because we had my Nan's birth certificate, we knew that her mother was 'Kathleen' Emily Bayliss and no named father. I was painstakingly searching for this woman all over the world. After my nan died, my mum and I did Ancestry DNA. When I looked at my matches, aside from my Mum, my highest match was a lady called Sheila. When I clicked on her tree, I found that her grandmother was Katherine Emily Bayliss. I was overwhelmed when I saw that she had never left Manchester! I contacted Sheila and explained. She was amazing. Her Mum, it turns out was my Nan's half sister and they could be twins! She filled in so many blanks and was just as shocked as we were. As I say, we have another match, with a similar distance relationship. She is unwilling to help any more than to answer questions. Every single shared match that we have with her, I have contacted and each and every one has ignored me. I am pretty sure that my Nans bio dad is Irish (for many reasons, all of these matches are Irish, My Nan always told that she was Irish and our Ancestry is very Irish). I have this individuals grandparents names. George Fox (single at the time but married to Bridget Doherty soon after) Stanley Bedford (Just newly married to Edith Jelley and seemed to be in the area at the time as an injured RAF pilot! Going to follow this up again. Thank you for letting me share and sorry for rambling on!
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There are some lovely photos on those trees
There are two alternative fathers do you have DNA matches with surname Fox or Finney
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Take each of those names one by one including the wives surnames put them in surname search and see how many dna matches you get for each
Surnames on locked trees also appear so you.may be able to uncover your mystery match that way
At least they do answer ....could it be the birth fathers child who doesnt want to admit to themselves that their father may have had other children
Im rambling now .keep us informed and if you.need help understanding the dna matches or more tips you can pm.me
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Ah, Finney is speculative and popped him in there today. I don't think there is any chance of him being the father. I think that my likely candidate is George Fox. I have seen a photo of me and he looks ridiculously like my Nan. But has been in my tree for months without anywhere near to a common ancestor hint!
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Take each of those names one by one including the wives surnames put them in surname search and see how many dna matches you get for each
Surnames on locked trees also appear so you.may be able to uncover your mystery match that way
At least they do answer ....could it be the birth fathers child who doesnt want to admit to themselves that their father may have had other children
Im rambling now .keep us informed and if you.need help understanding the dna matches or more tips you can pm.me
Much appreciated. I will do that. Thank you.
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Could “Sented” be Sainted?
Could the New Series be a new child?
Speculatively.
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Nova it's unlikely to be a new child no sign of the widowed father remarrying before 1911
Although a child could misspell sainted.and Sented.
I was wondering if the handwriting experts could speculate if the black writing was added by a grown up Catherine who kept the letter + wants to be know as Katherine or Kathleen when older
Knowing she had sisters does make me think it could be one of them maybe she considered herself daughter of big sister
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Nova it's unlikely to be a new child no sign of the widowed father remarrying before 1911
Although a child could misspell sainted.and Sented.
I was wondering if the handwriting experts could speculate if the black writing was added by a grown up Catherine who kept the letter + wants to be know as Katherine or Kathleen when older
Knowing she had sisters does make me think it could be one of them maybe she considered herself daughter of big sister
Brigid - in my reply 45, I suggested that this was a letter from Catherine/Katherine to her father, calling him by a family nickname (did he smoke? use hair oil?) and was a joking report of a jolly family evening in which she blamed the late bedtime on him.
This seems to fulfil all the queries, and may be a reason why she kept the letter as a memento of a happy evening.
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Igor yes I did agree with your scenario tho hadnt worked out the reason you thought he smoked or wore hair oil was because you thought she meant "scented" .That makes a lot of sense
Father or one of the sisters could have kept the charming letter.
I like the idea of stock being an evening bowl of bovril.
Am now helping littlebn look at dna possibilities for Katherines lover
Irish origin a distinct possibility
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Thank you again for all of your help. What a lovely community. :D
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Mike I think from private messages
this family was English
Littlr bn
Can you confirm if kathleens legitimate great/ grandchildren have scots welsh or english ethnicity too
The Irish comes from Katherines daughters birth father
Do any of the unknown matches have particular regions of ireland showing up on the dna map
You.ll need to add ireland as birth location to unknown father to see shared location map
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Katherine's parents, William and Alice Bayliss, were at 2 Churchill Street in September 1899.
Newspaper notice in the Deaths column in the Manchester Evening News 14 September 1899.
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Who are the “we” who had stock as a treat in bed, other young house maids or kitchen maids sharing an attic room
Was it not usual for young girls in service to write a weekly letter home which was then addressed and posted by their employer.
Given the huge shortage of young men after ww1 just maybe this lovely gentleman was still around in 1920.
Just a thought,
Mike
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Who are the “we” who had stock as a treat in bed, other young house maids or kitchen maids sharing an attic room
Was it not usual for young girls in service to write a weekly letter home which was then addressed and posted by their employer.
Given the huge shortage of young men after ww1 just maybe this lovely gentleman was still around in 1920.
Just a thought,
Mike
Thanks Mike. Unfortunately, while he may have been around, It is likely (from how I have narrowed it down) that he was married to someone else. In all probability, Katherine hid her pregnancy from everyone, including the father. Its remarkable really. The person that notified the registrar of the birth was a Thomas Aspinall, who was a mill owner in Heywood, Lancs. His wife was a midwife, which makes it seem that Katherine travelled there on purpose. My Nan was always told that her real mum was a young girl who had travelled from Ireland to safely deliver her baby. The reality was quite different. My Nan grew up in Heywood and had a lovely early life there and we can only thank Katherine for that. I am going to assume that Katherine may have worked in one of Thomas' mills as a clerk. The 1921 census is greatly anticipated in this house!!!
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William Bayliss occupation seems to be in the commercial agent/ traveller field, however on the 1891 census he also gives his occupation as Professional Singer.
Could this also have something to do with the new series in terms of music. Listening to a phonograph https://www.britannica.com/topic/music-recording/The-development-of-musical-recording
Mentions new series.
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William Bayliss occupation seems to be in the commercial agent/ traveller field, however on the 1891 census he also gives his occupation as Professional Singer.
Could this also have something to do with the new series in terms of music. Listening to a phonograph https://www.britannica.com/topic/music-recording/The-development-of-musical-recording
Wow!! What a plot twist. I had never noticed that
Mentions new series.
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I think it would make sense in terms of a birthday celebration anyway.
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Regarding birth father
an injured soldier age 25 in 1919 does seem plausible.
The record has him enlisting in may + being discharged 6 weeks later .
On a list of soldiers entitled to silver medals
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Regarding birth father
an injured soldier age 25 in 1919 does seem plausible.
The record has him enlisting in may + being discharged 6 weeks later .
On a list of soldiers entitled to silver medals
Hi, Is this John Horace Weir? He got married in Lancashire around 1921 (I believe). I also Believe that Katherines sister or aunt worked in a hospital. He was one of my old candidates who I have a DNA match to and fits in every way. He is also Irish.
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No it was George Thomas Fox
Look at both of their grandparents surnames if you can find them and see if any come up in shared surname match .
It looks like George didn't have any legit matches with Bridget Doherty
So if your other match is his greatgranddaughter maybe she doesn't know where the match comes from . It will be harde to find connection .
I saw that you'd added John Horace Weir
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It would be better in my opinion to put father unknown for Your nan but put in a note who potential candidates are
But include their trees as floating branches again with a tag or note leading people to your main tree
That way anyone searching for Fox Weir Fenney o another may see potential links on your tree
Does that make sense ?
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No it was George Thomas Fox
Look at both of their grandparents surnames if you can find them and see if any come up in shared surname match .
It looks like George didn't have any legit matches with Bridget Doherty
So if your other match is his greatgranddaughter maybe she doesn't know where the match comes from . It will be harde to find connection .
I saw that you'd added John Horace Weir
Was absolutely convinced that it was Fox but literally no Irish Fox's in either my shared matches with her, or others. There is also no evidence of his travel to the UK,nor evidence of Kathierine's travel to Ireland. I think he was born and died in the same house? DNA connection to Weir's great grandson (from what I can sus) 103cm across 5 segments. He is a mutual match with Fox's granddaughter also. Evidence of Weir being in Lancashire during the time and was in the RAF and looked to be injured a lot! So possible that he was in hospital in the area. Unfortunately this match is also unwilling to help.
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It would be better in my opinion to put father unknown for Your nan but put in a note who potential candidates are
But include their trees as floating branches again with a tag or note leading people to your main tree
That way anyone searching for Fox Weir Fenney o another may see potential links on your tree
Does that make sense ?
It does. Thank you for all your advice.
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That's great it does sound very likely then.
103 cm is a significant amount is that to you or your mother ?
Now you've made one breakthrough more will come
Do you mean that Weir was the true birth father to the Fox descendant too ?
Ps you don't have to use whole quote each time .
your profile photo pic of your nan is lovely how old is she there ?
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Jool(s) that was a good find with the death notice at reply#63.
I am still thinking on the letter.
In 1901, the census shows the family living at 2 Churchill Street
In 1911, 12 Entwhistle, St, Manchester, which is the same address given for Katherine herself a top the letter.
Re "the New Series": In 1902, the newly invented Edison Gold-Molded hard wax cylinders were revolutionising the sound recording industry at the time. New fang-dangled things that could be played over and over.
So, the letter presumably is written between these dates.
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Need to see who is living at the Entwhistle address in 1901?
Added: I do not know if this is of any use?
Per Katherine Emily Bayliss (in blue, not her writing)
12 Entwhistle Sreet
Moss Side
I have found two people living at 12 Entwistle St (spelling) on the 1901 Census.
Address is: 12 Entwistle Street Salford Lancashire
Does that sound right?
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Nova great find about the music
Re the letter I understood.reading between lines and all posts that it was written by the child Catherine from her home address before 1911 & saved and maybe sent to her as a.young adult when she was living at the 1911 family home using Katherine spelling
My question re handwriting what is the word after Churchill st.
Before Manchester.
We were taught to put our own address on top right corner
Addressees address if included was two lines lower on left side
All those conventions have.now gone out of the window.
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My question re handwriting what is the word after Churchill st.
Before Manchester.
C on M - Chorlton-on-Medlock :)
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Need to see who is living at the Entwhistle address in 1901?
Added: I do not know if this is of any use?
Per Katherine Emily Bayliss (in blue, not her writing)
12 Entwhistle Sreet
Moss Side
I have found two people living at 12 Entwistle St (spelling) on the 1901 Census.
Address is: 12 Entwistle Street Salford Lancashire
Does that sound right?
No, it does not. I have tried truncation etc., Ent* just for own interest of who was at the address in 1901, but I do not think the street existed then. I think it would be likely to be in the civil parish of South Manchester and sub-district of Hulme.
Nearest streets given to the residents of Entwistle Street in 1911 on either side of the enumeration are: Moss Lane East and Normanby Street.These are both found on Google Maps in present day Moss Side, Manchester.
So I have not narrowed down a year and have thought that it must be the first week of November - only per William's birthdate on Ancestry trees.
So maybe the new series was music-related ???
Maybe he was sainted or scented.
Didn't you say he was religious? How do you know?
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Re the letter I understood.reading between lines and all posts that it was written by the child Catherine from her home address before 1911 & saved and maybe sent to her as a.young adult when she was living at the 1911 family home using Katherine spelling
My question re handwriting what is the word after Churchill st.
Before Manchester.
AHHH.. I just read that again... hence the different pens and writing!!!
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I don’t know whether it would have cheeky for a young child to refer to someone as sainted, but one other thought was if he worked as a commission agent or commercial traveller and was sent away due to work. Then could it be her childish pronunciation of he was sent? Sented away. Maybe it stuck as a nickname?
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Have you got any further ruling any potential birth fathers out
Or in ?
It is hard if you don't have DNA surname matches on trees that come up frequently
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Looking back with fond memories of this post .
It led me to collaborating with little bn working thru her DNA connections and discovering fantastic stories of American pioneers and Irish schools. Areas I'd not explored before .
It's an inspiration about how far a clue can lead .
+ It shows how wonderful the rootschat community is .
It was a chance to delve into the realms of speculation and understanding the mentality of the day .
Btw did we identify the birth father in the end or get down to possibles out of several brothers ??
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I was reminded of this lovely story today
Love the discussions + detective work in so many domains
Hand writing
Addresses
Census+electoral roll information
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Little bn s progress using different techniques Linking unknown person to a tree and comparing DNA could.
Inspire others
Has there been any extra progress since
1921 Census was relieased
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Took another look at this tree and DNA matches
LittleBNs relative has Stanley BEDFORD as the birth father of Kathleen
Looking at other matches disregarding the high BEDFORD match for a moment
It looks to me
There are THOMPSON connections that lead to a common ancestor being ,JJ THOMPSON and that one of his elder grandsons likely to be father of Dorothy.BAYLISS
We hadn't considered that either Stanley was actually fathered by one of these THOMPSON grandsons Or that he is not actually the father of the highest match .
There are no connections to Stanley BEDFORD s mother's line
Thru lines are realigning and more plausible suggestions appearing .
I'm testing out this theory by.looking for surname connections to the mothers of each grandson .