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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: DianaCanada on Monday 12 October 20 15:40 BST (UK)

Title: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Monday 12 October 20 15:40 BST (UK)
I have not been able to find Leonard John Lade, b. Dec Q, 1880. Blackburn, Lancs. (I do not have the birth certificate) after 1891.
In 1891 I found young Leonard, age 10, living with his grandparents in Warbleton, Sussex, b. Blackburn, Lincolnshire (sic), but obviously a mistake for Lancashire.  His grandparents were Tilden and Mary Ann (Kemp) Lade, proud parents of 14 children (12 boys, 2 girls), their younger ones with them and including one older son, John, 29, who was absent in 1881. 
Going backwards, I found a Leonard Lade, age 5 months, b. Blackburn, Lancs., living in Regents Park, Marylebone with mother Mary, 21, b. Fairlight, Sussex.  She is listed as married, also Lade.
Leonard's registration includes MMN as FRANCIS.
I found no Lade/Mary Francis marriage.
I believe she is actually Mary Ann Georgiana Francis b. Ore (near Fairlight), Sussex Mar 1860, daughter of Joseph Francis and his wife Sophia (Easton).  Mary later marries Edward Marchant in Hastings district, and has several children with him.
There is a John Lade employed at the Euston Hotel in Marylebone in 1881, age 21, b. Warbleton, Sussex (matches mine) living in, waiter, possibly lied about his age to get the job, he was only 19. Listed as single. 
As far as I can tell from a map of London, Euston Square Hotel (if it is the same) is not far from Regents Park.
The connection with Blackburn is another mystery!

I cannot find Leonard (or John for that matter) after 1891.  I have checked censuses, military, immigration, Canada and US censuses, etc.

South Africa might be a possibility as one of John's brothers was there over the years but ended up in Canada.

Any help appreciated!
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Monday 12 October 20 16:04 BST (UK)
Forgot to add that I have also looked for Leonard as FRANCIS or MARCHANT, but no joy there either.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: Pennines on Monday 12 October 20 16:19 BST (UK)
I think it may be a good idea to obtain the birth certificate - you can order a PDF copy from the General Register Office for £7 (as opposed to a paper copy for £11).

On Lancs BMD Leonard's birth is shown as registered in the Witton area of Blackburn - and as you say - mother's maiden name is Francis. Hence a father's name must have also been shown.

I could not see a baptism in Blackburn. No other Lade children seem to have been born there around that time.

It would be interesting to see if there is an address on the birth certificate (although it might just be a mother and baby home). At the moment I am struggling to find any later records for him after 1891. It's an unusual surname and could be mistranscribed of course.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: CaroleW on Monday 12 October 20 16:29 BST (UK)
John Lade b Sussex was the son of Tilden & Mary Ann and was on the 1891 entry. I agree with Pennines that you need the 1880 birth cert to establish his fathers name.

Mary shows herself as married on the 1881 entry but if she did marry Marchant in 1885 she married as Francis - not Lade
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 12 October 20 16:33 BST (UK)
There is a Leonard Lade bn c1880 going to Canada in 1900 with a John Lade age 35
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2QST-JZR
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Monday 12 October 20 16:41 BST (UK)
At this point, am not overly concerned about the birth certificate.  There "conceivably" only two sons of Tilden and Mary who would be his father - their eldest son Philemon and John.  Next in line was George, only 14 when Leonard would have been conceived.  Philemon was married, living in Hailsham, Sussex in 1881, and while this does not entirely rule him out, John's being in Marylebone where Mary Francis "Lade" was in 1891, makes me think he is the likely one.  I know he is the grandson of Tilden and Mary, so am happy with that for now.
I am pretty sure John and Mary (Francis) never married, so makes sense she married as Francis.
The scenario seems likely to be she decided John could take care of Leonard, or his parents could, and quite possibly, Edward Marchant was not keen on taking on her son born to another man.

Of course, though, anything is possible! Happy to consider all ideas. (Also did not find Leonard on Lancashire Parish Clerks, or any London baptismal records).
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Monday 12 October 20 16:45 BST (UK)
There is a Leonard Lade bn c1880 going to Canada in 1900 with a John Lade age 35
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2QST-JZR

Thank you for this, Rosie!  I have not been able to access FamilySearch, problems with my password, but it sent me right there when I clicked on the link.
It looks like it might be John and Leonard.  As I mentioned, I did not find them on the North American censuses, but I will have another look.  As someone mentioned, there could be mistranscriptions as it is a rare name (apparently most found around Kent/E.Sussex and might be a variation on Ladd).
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: Pennines on Monday 12 October 20 16:59 BST (UK)
What a great find Rosie.

Leonard Lade is on the 1901 Canadian census - shown as age 19, but with a birth date of 6 October 1871!! -- It shows he arrived Canada in 1900. He is a Lodger in Algoma? Ontario.

Added -- I suggested the birth cert not only for father's name - but to find who lived at the address in 1881 - just in case it gave a clue.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Monday 12 October 20 17:04 BST (UK)
Hi, thanks,  just found Leonard in Algoma in 1901.  I think it might be him.  I lost the post I made, sometimes the technology gets to me  :).
Might be a good idea to get the birth certificate for that reason.  Will add to my list (long).
Haven't looked up the history of Algoma, but know it was a mining town, aluminum?  They were likely recruiting men in England and other places to emigrate and work there.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: Pennines on Monday 12 October 20 17:08 BST (UK)
Diana - I'm afraid I can't read his occupation -- you may be able to. No other 'Lade' at that address.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 12 October 20 17:16 BST (UK)
Where does he fit in with your tree  :-\.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Monday 12 October 20 17:55 BST (UK)
Leonard is a distant cousin.  DNA revealed my grandfather to be one of three Booth brothers from Warbleton, Sussex.  I have been working on the extended Booth family, to which Tilden Lade belongs. I may also be connected to Tildenís wife, a Kemp. 
Many of these families are huge, so lots to be researched! My fatherís urban northern lines are less populated, smaller families and higher infant mortality.
Tilden and Mary Ann lost just one child in early childhood, almost certainly one of a set of twins.  0n the 1911, although Mary A. Had died, Tilden wrote in 14 children, 11 living. I have accounted for two deaths.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Monday 12 October 20 17:59 BST (UK)
Diana - I'm afraid I can't read his occupation -- you may be able to. No other 'Lade' at that address.

I think it says ďsection manĒ.  Miners probably worked in sections?  Maybe thatís how they referred to ordinary miners.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: Pennines on Monday 12 October 20 19:17 BST (UK)
I can't find him anywhere else! Checked both Canada and, in case he crossed the border, -- USA records. Please let me know if you do find him later - it's very frustrating when that happens.

(Funnily enough I am going to Specsavers on Wednesday!!)
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 13 October 20 10:07 BST (UK)
Thank you for your reply, 

I was curious as I have distant connections to Joseph Francis the brother of Mary.   ;D    A few years ago I visited Ore trying to locate Rose Cottage as my grandmother had mentioned it in her 'ramblings' 
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: AntonyMMM on Tuesday 13 October 20 12:02 BST (UK)
On Lancs BMD Leonard's birth is shown as registered in the Witton area of Blackburn - and as you say - mother's maiden name is Francis. Hence a father's name must have also been shown.


A dangerous assumption - the inclusion of a maiden name doesn't always mean father's name is on the register, it just means the mother is (or has been) married at some time. It would normally be a married couple but there are other possibilities  -  it could be a birth to a widow with no father named for example.

I know the Witton area of Blackburn well - have connections in my own family there.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: Pennines on Tuesday 13 October 20 13:39 BST (UK)
Antony - you are quite right. I must admit I hadn't thought of those possibilties for a different surname and a mother's maiden name being shown on a birth certificate.

Diana - I apologise sincerely if I have mis-led you into thinking as I did - and that a father's name would be definitely shown on that birth certificate.

Antony - by coincidence  I know the Witton area of Blackburn as well - I actually live in it!
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Tuesday 13 October 20 13:50 BST (UK)
Antony is right, of course.  I considered that possibility in this case, but feel that with the other evidence I believe that the parents were unmarried but pretended to be when Leonard was registered. 
I will order Leonardís birth certificate, it may be awhile, I find the process on gov.uk to be clunky and irritating so I generally wait and order a large batch at once.  I will post the info when I get it.
Pennines, I do not feel you misled me, I knew what you meant.  Have been at this game for a long time, so know there are many variations on a theme.  And of course, I forget things too.
Just started working on Albert Lade, the uncle who went to South Africa but ended up in Canada; he also returned to England for awhile.  He died a year after the Ontario death records end on Anc.  Think they will add that year in 2021.  He might have been involved in mining too, but I canít quite read his occupation on the shipís list.


Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Tuesday 13 October 20 13:56 BST (UK)
Thank you for your reply, 

I was curious as I have distant connections to Joseph Francis the brother of Mary.   ;D    A few years ago I visited Ore trying to locate Rose Cottage as my grandmother had mentioned it in her 'ramblings'

Thatís quite a coincidence! Some days I feel as though Iím connected to everyone in E. Sussex and itís only half my ancestry.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Thursday 29 October 20 15:01 GMT (UK)
I have received Leonard's birth certificate.  Ordered the PDF on Sunday morning, less than 4 full days and it is in my in-box  :D.
Here are the details: Leonard John Lade, b 6 Oct 1880, father John Lade, footman, Mother Mary Ann Georgina Lade, formerly FRANCIS.  Mary Ann was the informant, as M.A.G. Lade.  Baby was born at 4 Witton Village, Witton, and this was given as Mary's address as well.
This birthdate matches the one on the 1901 Canadian census, at least the day does. 
I have been expanding my information on Leonard's many Lade aunts and uncles an cousins.  The obituary of one uncle (Joseph) mentioned he had visited his brother in Canada four years previously and had been ill ever since!  This brother must have been Albert Lade who settled in Brooklin, ON after living for many years in South Africa. 
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 29 October 20 15:15 GMT (UK)
Thank you for posting the details from Leonards birth, there is no doubt you have the correct Mary Ann with all her names mentioned.  I wonder what she was doing 'up north'  probably working.  :)   Her brother Josephs wife had moved down from Lincoln with her parents /siblings.

I think I need to look into the Francis family a bit more. in the coming months.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Thursday 29 October 20 20:05 GMT (UK)
You're welcome, Rosie.  Thinking Mary might have realized she was pregnant and followed John up north? We'll likely never know!
I found someone's family group sheet online that might indicate John returned to England and died in Sussex.  Will be following that up.
Wishing you success on the Francis branch.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: Pennines on Thursday 29 October 20 20:48 GMT (UK)
I was hoping the inhabitants of the address where the baby was born may give some clue as to why Mary was in Lancashire at the time of the birth.

Sadly they don't appear to do so. The only time 'Witton Village' appears as a thoroughfare seems to be in 1881. (Unless someone else finds it elsewhere).

In 1881 there was a 'normal' family living there, all born in that area ,or an adjacent township.

Alexander Calder aged 39 born Blackburn - an Overlooker at a Cotton Mill
Margaret wife - aged 50? born Samlesbury
William aged 18 born Hoghton
Lucy aged 12 born Witton
Mark aged 3 born Witton

In 1871 this family were in Salford - birth places slightly different, but still local to the Witton area of Blackburn.

Sorry that doesn't provide any information as to why Mary was where she was in 1880. At least you know for sure she was 'claiming' to be married to John Lade at the time of the birth.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Thursday 29 October 20 21:16 GMT (UK)
Thank you for checking that, Pennines.  I made a stab at it earlier but didnít find that.  I just checked the baptism for young Mark Calder, on Lancs Parish Clerks, hoping for a specific address, it was there, but just said Witton.  Nothing for his sister Lucy.
You mentioned you live in Witton.  Do you know of any place in the area where John might have been employed as a footman?
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: Pennines on Thursday 29 October 20 21:56 GMT (UK)
There were some large houses in that area Diana. The nearest was Griffin Lodge on Cavendish Place - literally a stones throw away. A family named Dugdale lived there - both the father and a son became a Mayor of the town and also built and ran Griffin Mill in the Witton area.

Also off the top of my head;
Pleasington New Hall
Pleasington Old Hall
Feniscowles Hall
Cherry Tree House

I am sure there were others -- I just can't think of them at the moment. (It's too late over here for my aging brain!)

You may find information about these establishments on either;
http://www.cottontown.org

or

http://www.blackburnpast.com/

Both have a search facility. However -- I find it hard to believe that John would come so far to be a Footman -- it's a mystery really - and of course it may have been a different family in the house 4, Witton Village - when Mary was seemingly there.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: Pennines on Friday 30 October 20 09:18 GMT (UK)
Diana - just to add what I said last night - although this is complete 'up in the air' speculation --- on the 1881 cenus the Enumerator seems to have gone from Broomfield Place into Witton Village - then to Spring Lane.

Both Broomfield Place and Spring Lane still exist. Broomfield Place is a short street of terraced houses -- Spring Lane is a longish road.

If you want to look at Google Maps - input Broomfield Place, Blackburn. Face AWAY from the main road and go down the street towards a largish house facing the street - behind that house are the grounds of Griffin Lodge.

In addition - Spring Lane - is lower down the main road from Broomfield Place - so if you turn right at the end of Broomfield Place in front of the large house (now an Undertakers!!)  -- that demolished area MAY have been Witton Village thoroughfare.

From Spring Lane you can see the front of the grounds of Griffin Lodge on the left -- again driving AWAY from the main road.

Adam Dugdale born c 1834 was living in Griffin Lodge with several live in servants -- but no Footman.

But even if John wasn't Footman there -- that is the area where the couple's baby was born.
Title: Re: Leonard John Lade: Blackburn, Lancs./London/Warbleton, Sussex
Post by: DianaCanada on Friday 30 October 20 14:26 GMT (UK)
Thanks so much for your help and the extra information, Pennines!  It really adds to the story and the mystery.  John was working as a waiter in London in a hotel in 1881 so perhaps not so much of a stretch as he had worked as a footman?  Wondering if the two of them ran away, they were both a bit young, he was underage, hoping to make it to Gretna Green? 
Perhaps he had a "pleasing appearance" and the height to be hired on as a footman - and maybe his Sussex accent seemed exotic in Witton?  No idea, anything is possible :).  As far as I know there were no connections to his family in that area, not sure about Mary's.
Coincidentally, I have a Dugdale ancestor, Ellen Dugdale, who married Elijah Dixon.  She was b. 1796, Rough Lee, Lancs., and ended up up Burnley.