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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: BushInn1746 on Monday 12 October 20 18:03 BST (UK)
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Hello
The Prime Minister on TV at 7pm this Evening.
Three Tiers for England.
I missed the Scientific Briefing this Morning.
Mark
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I found the briefing this morning very informative - but then I've always appreciated Jonathan Van Tam's clear, simple, no-nonsense explanations. He doesn't sugar-coat anything but I'm someone who feels better for knowing the facts however gloomy they are. That's why I can't bear to listen to Boris's wiffle-waffle which says very little.
It's available on YouTube
Pat
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I may be dense but what has really changed apart from every local authority now being categorised into one of three tiers. Each tier has a set of restrictions but these are the minimum - the local authority can add extra restrictions if they see fit. So the claim that the three tier system adds clarity to what is and what is not allowed breaks down straight away.
I am in an area which is classified as medium (lowest level). We have only the national restrictions - rule of 6 etc introduced on 14 September.
In the week 3 - 9 Oct inc there were 62 cases per 100,000 people - the average is supposed to be 77 per 100,000. The latest figure I have found of 7-day daily average (on 8 Oct) in my area is 11 cases per day. That is over three weeks after the rule of 6 was introduced. On the 14th September the 7 day average was 3 cases. So with just over three weeks of the latest restrictions, the number of cases in my area has more than trebled.
Like most areas of England, we are set to continue with the same basic restrictions, I fail to see how just continuing as we are is going to reduce the number new infections per day in the medium areas.
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I may be dense but what has really changed apart from every local authority now being categorised into one of three tiers. Each tier has a set of restrictions but these are the minimum - the local authority can add extra restrictions if they see fit. So the claim that the three tier system adds clarity to what is and what is not allowed breaks down straight away.
I am in an area which is classified as medium (lowest level). We have only the national restrictions - rule of 6 etc introduced on 14 September.
In the week 3 - 9 Oct inc there were 62 cases per 100,000 people - the average is supposed to be 77 per 100,000. The latest figure I have found of 7-day daily average (on 8 Oct) in my area is 11 cases per day. That is over three weeks after the rule of 6 was introduced. On the 14th September the 7 day average was 3 cases. So with just over three weeks of the latest restrictions, the number of cases in my area has more than trebled.
Like most areas of England, we are set to continue with the same basic restrictions, I fail to see how just continuing as we are is going to reduce the number new infections per day in the medium areas.
Unfortunately, (according to French Radio International in mid / end of August 2020) some of their early Second Wave cases in mid August 2020 were Positive without any symptons, which our England Scientists had warned us about quite early on when saying Covid-19 was also an 'asymptomatic' illness.
Professor Whitty said at the 7pm England Briefing yesterday that Tier 3 (very high alert) was only a base minimum and already known that many in Tier 3 will need tighter and tougher Local Restrictions from Local Public Health.
Seems some places have refused Tier 3?
The government Scientific advice is there for us all to see Professors Whitty; Van Tam etc. The most basic being Hands, Face, Space.
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I may be dense but what has really changed apart from every local authority now being categorised into one of three tiers. Each tier has a set of restrictions but these are the minimum - the local authority can add extra restrictions if they see fit. So the claim that the three tier system adds clarity to what is and what is not allowed breaks down straight away.
I agree with you, it just seems to me that the same rules have been repackaged into a tier system!
That's why I can't bear to listen to Boris's wiffle-waffle which says very little.
I also hate watching and listening to his wiffle-waffle, so I think I must of missed the criteria for moving between the tiers, which I assumed would be the whole point of having a tier system! Is it 100, 200, 500 cases per 100,000, having an L in your towns name or is there no criteria!
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And cases are rising everywhere, many I've looked at in the lowest tier are threefold rises in a fortnight. No change in restrictions for them means no change in the rate of increase.
And is there anything to stop people from the areas in "high" or "very high" tiers travelling to a "medium" tier area for a holiday, day trip, pub crawl etc?
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What is the point of having scientific advisors? It has been disclosed today that SAGE warned 3 weeks ago that cases were rising and that we needed a short, sharp lockdown plus other interventions. It stated
"The more rapidly these interventions are put in place the greater the reduction in Covid-related deaths and the quicker they can be eased. Not acting now to reduce cases will result in a very large epidemic with catastrophic consequences."
So what did the government do - ignored it and introduced a rule of 6, plus allowing universities to go back.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54514387
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I live in a borough that is in the Liverpool City area, mind you we didn’t know we were in Liverpool City region as we’d never heard it before! If they’d said Merseyside we’d have understood and we are Tier 3 the highest level. Of the 6 boroughs 2 do have high numbers but there are quite a number of other areas who have higher numbers than the other boroughs but they’re still in Tier 2. It doesn’t make sense.
As for finding a list of the new rules well I’ve not achieved it yet. From what I can gather I can do my own shopping and go for a walk but that’s it so it’ll be back, almost, to how it was when I was under the shielded regulations. And no idea of time is given.
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Last night in Liverpool
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/party-scenes-liverpool-last-night-22841407
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Thanks for that.
I’ve now got the official gov handout and basically the extremely clinically vulnerable have got the same rules as before but instead of it saying you will do it it says you are strongly advised to do it! It’s very depressing and upsetting after all those months of doing exactly as one was told.
What really gets me is that other boroughs have higher numbers than my Borough but they’re not in Tier 3. It just seems unfair and no reason to it.
So I’m off to stock up the cupboard etc which will last me a bit rather than relying on friends all the time.
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Thanks for that.
I’ve now got the official gov handout and basically the extremely clinically vulnerable have got the same rules as before but instead of it saying you will do it it says you are strongly advised to do it! It’s very depressing and upsetting after all those months of doing exactly as one was told. Surely, everyone must feel the same way by now. Even those areas that have already been under strict controls for quite a few weeks have seen their numbers going up. So it seems to make no difference. If you're unfortunate enough to live in a crowded Northern area with lots of poverty and deprivation (i.e. people who can't work from home and can't afford to self isolate even with the best of intentions) hard luck, we'll penalise you even more. If, on the other hand, you live in a leafy suburb in -say - Oxfordshire, can work from home and can self isolate all you want, well good for you.
What really gets me is that other boroughs have higher numbers than my Borough but they’re not in Tier 3. It just seems unfair and no reason to it. Make no mistake, its political. I am watching Andy Burnham and Steve Rotheram with a great deal of interest. Boris & co telling porkies in the Commons about consulting the mayors. Watch this space.
So I’m off to stock up the cupboard etc which will last me a bit rather than relying on friends all the time. Don't take all the toilet rolls!!! ;)
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Thanks for that.
I’ve now got the official gov handout and basically the extremely clinically vulnerable have got the same rules as before but instead of it saying you will do it it says you are strongly advised to do it! It’s very depressing and upsetting after all those months of doing exactly as one was told. Surely, everyone must feel the same way by now. Even those areas that have already been under strict controls for quite a few weeks have seen their numbers going up. So it seems to make no difference. If you're unfortunate enough to live in a crowded Northern area with lots of poverty and deprivation (i.e. people who can't work from home and can't afford to self isolate even with the best of intentions) hard luck, we'll penalise you even more. If, on the other hand, you live in a leafy suburb in -say - Oxfordshire, can work from home and can self isolate all you want, well good for you.
What really gets me is that other boroughs have higher numbers than my Borough but they’re not in Tier 3. It just seems unfair and no reason to it. Make no mistake, its political. I am watching Andy Burnham and Steve Rotheram with a great deal of interest. Boris & co telling porkies in the Commons about consulting the mayors. Watch this space.
So I’m off to stock up the cupboard etc which will last me a bit rather than relying on friends all the time. Don't take all the toilet rolls!!! ;)
My local council website is quite good at keeping us all informed. What surprised me has been adverts urging residents to nip along to either of the two local covid test sites - national TV gives the impression people have been having to travel 100s of miles.
FYI, if you look at the Guardian newspaper it had already published an article which set out that local councils and mayors, including Andy B, had already been asked to submit their own proposals for covid restrictions in their own local areas by last Sunday
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2818-3
If I was a medical expert, I'd be suggesting a total shutdown.
If I was the country's accountant, I'd be suggesting we tried to keep some businesses operating as we have no taxpayers money in our coffers
If I was the country's legal beagle, I'd be advising all Cabinet Members to make sure they kept within International and the UK's laws.
If I was the archibishop of Westminster, I'd be on my knees praying for divine help.
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Last night in Liverpool
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/party-scenes-liverpool-last-night-22841407
One day ago at the London Palladium, an evening with Arsene Wenger, late of Arsenal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-54521741
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Thanks for that.
I’ve now got the official gov handout and basically the extremely clinically vulnerable have got the same rules as before but instead of it saying you will do it it says you are strongly advised to do it! It’s very depressing and upsetting after all those months of doing exactly as one was told.
What really gets me is that other boroughs have higher numbers than my Borough but they’re not in Tier 3. It just seems unfair and no reason to it.
I've had to do a bit of surfing to discover why you in Southport are in Liverpool's severe lockdown region.
I can't see a reason for it, unless the 17 miles that separate both of the areas is considered not far enough to be safe from their actions. Then, of course, both places are Ports of entry, which could heighten the risk. I was born and raised in a port on the east coast and we were the first to be hit by seasonal 'flu. and any other imported foreign bug; disease; virus, etc.
Fingers crossed this situation ends sooner rather than later. eh?
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Last night in Liverpool
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/party-scenes-liverpool-last-night-22841407
One day ago at the London Palladium, an evening with Arsene Wenger, late of Arsenal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-54521741
I think the Palladium seating and other special arrangements have got to be the way forward. Its the same as what you find on buses these days: people wearing yashmaks and one seat has a big green tick; the next has a big red cross. The Palladium managers had obviously clearly thought the whole thing through . We are suffocating out entertainment industry if we don't just get on with living our lives.
As for the young people in Liverpool: I don't condone it but I understand it. Young people take less kindly to being ordered what to do (didn't you rebel when you were young, believing yourself to be invincible?) and what not to do by politicians in London who have absolutely no conception (and even less interest) of what life is like in places like Liverpool.
If they really think it will work, go for the 2-3 week complete shut down instead of this regional variation scheme which was absolutely bound to get people's backs up. However, that would mean accepting that we would have to do it again and again until a vaccine comes along or the virus peters out.
Oh and by the way, Hancock was speaking in the Commons telling us that he had been in consultations with the mayors of Manchester and Liverpool long before last Sunday. Both Andy B and Steve R say that was a lie. Surprise! Surprise! The ideas they came up with since Sunday were then ignored!
I have been looking at which constituencies are represented by Cabinet members, and, unless my geography is way out, the only one in the North is Rishi Sunak (Richmond). Given that these 'emergency' measures hardly see the inside of the House of Commons and are made by these mostly south-representing ministers, how dare they then ignore the mayors of cities they want to put into Tier 3.
I can't make up my mind whether they're deliberately trying to stir up civil unrest or whether they're just plain out of their depth. Mediocrities who are only interested in their own careers.
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I suppose then that those unable to get to hospitals etc,will not be able to keep appointments .
So an even bigger backlog of missed diagnoses and treatment .
Stating the obvious Covid 19 will be responsible for many more deaths than those specifically from the virus itself.
Many people have said , if only we could be really strict for the incubation period-14-days - then seehow things go,we might be very surprised.
I can’t believe the idiocy in Liverpool last night.
Truly selfish and irresponsible.
Viktoria.
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I suppose then that those unable to get to hospitals etc,will not be able to keep appointments .
So an even bigger backlog of missed diagnoses and treatment .
Stating the obvious Covid 19 will be responsible for many more deaths than those specifically from the virus itself.
Many people have said , if only we could be really strict for the incubation period-14-days - then seehow things go,we might be very surprised.
I can’t believe the idiocy in Liverpool last night.
Truly selfish and irresponsible.
Viktoria.
I must say I've got rather grumpy about the younger generation's inconsideration. I had an eye operation early this year and was supposed to return to the hospital two weeks later, which had to be cancelled due to lockdown and icontrary to what I was told to expect, it's been rather painful. Everytime the hospital gave me another appointment, there's been more lockdowns thus more cancellations. I only just sneaked in an appointment on 28th September - I was so lucky that the cabinet did not decide to close the country down when the scientists recommended it.
I have been passed on to my local NHS Trust, which fills me with dread as my late husband went in there twenty years ago with one ailment and after a three week stay was told he'was fit enough to leave but unexpectedly died from "exhaustion". according to the death cert.
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I hope all is well now, for you, as you I had cataract removal ,both eyes and a canal taking too much fluid to left eye detached.
No appointments since 19 th March ,despite the Specialist asking for one six weeks later.
Nothing all Summer but problems increasing so I phoned and got one last week.
Pressure sky high and now laser treatment on Tuesday.
BUT ,is my son ,from a different household ,allowed to take me ?
I need a responsible adult to take me home it says in the letter.
Goodness knows what the outcome would have been had I not phoned for an appointment ,so hopefully things will improve now.
I can’t understand the reluctance for a short ,very sharp shutdown ,
OK things will suffer but they will if there are no customers left to drink, eat,have their hair done,etcetc.
Such short sightedness.
Gosh I can sense your anger over your husband ,that is so unsatisfactory a diagnosis , too open ended -your loss is not helped by such a vague blanket
term.We need to know exactly don’t we.
Viktoria.
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As for the young people in Liverpool: I don't condone it but I understand it. Young people take less kindly to being ordered what to do (didn't you rebel when you were young, believing yourself to be invincible?) and what not to do by politicians in London who have absolutely no conception (and even less interest) of what life is like in places like Liverpool.
If they really think it will work, go for the 2-3 week complete shut down instead of this regional variation scheme which was absolutely bound to get people's backs up. However, that would mean accepting that we would have to do it again and again until a vaccine comes along or the virus peters out.
If you think it is tough here and Leaders in England are struggling ... France have declared a State of Emergency.
Also a Curfew in major French Cities between 9pm and 6am.
If you do have a Countrywide Circuit Break, when it is over, the country concerned will probably only be back where they started a few weeks or month or so later.
An NHS Consultant repeated this morning - Hands, Face & Space is the best defence.
The French President said everyone must do their bit.
Looking at the WHO (World Health Organisation) on Genome variation (see also Quadram Institute research, England on sequencing), WHO are saying look for changes to Covid-19 including when you use drugs to treat it.
Variant analysis of SARS-CoV-2 genomes
Search:- strain, mutation, variant, etc (here if interested)
https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/98/7/20-253591/en/
Only our behaviour will determine our outcome, one Specialist has already said. And I'll add Pray, to that.
Mark
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Just because Macron's doing it doesn't make it right. He's another mouton.
So, are we all prepared for locking down, coming out, locking down, coming out....ad infinitum?
Does everyone know the words to The Hokey Cokey because that is indeed what its all about. ::)
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Not funny really ,but witty! YES!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Viktoria.
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If you think it is tough here and Leaders in England are struggling ... France have declared a State of Emergency.
Also a Curfew in major French Cities between 9pm and 6am.
If you do have a Countrywide Circuit Break, when it is over, the country concerned will probably only be back where they started a few weeks or month or so later.
An NHS Consultant repeated this morning - Hands, Face & Space is the best defence.
The French President said everyone must do their bit.
Looking at the WHO (World Health Organisation) on Genome variation (see also Quadram Institute research, England on sequencing), WHO are saying look for changes to Covid-19 including when you use drugs to treat it.
Variant analysis of SARS-CoV-2 genomes
Search:- strain, mutation, variant, etc (here if interested)
https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/98/7/20-253591/en/
Only our behaviour will determine our outcome, one Specialist has already said. And I'll add Pray, to that.
Mark
Breaking news via the BBC:-
French police have raided the homes of senior government and health officials as part of an investigation into their handling of the coronavirus pandemic.
Health Minister Olivier Véran and the director of the national health agency, Jérôme Salomon, are among those whose properties were searched on Thursday.
It comes after a court launched an inquiry earlier this year into the government's handling of the pandemic.
It has faced criticism over shortages of equipment and slow response times.
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Breaking news via the BBC:-
French police have raided the homes of senior government and health officials as part of an investigation into their handling of the coronavirus pandemic.
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I have mentioned before, I'm happy to follow Government Rules and Guidance on Covid-19.
Hands, Face & Space, keep safe, Mark
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Well I like Andy Burnham, but not sure I can agree with him this time.
Stricter measures now could mean a shorter period with those measures in place.
A simplistic view I concede ,and trade etc will suffer, but it will suffer when there are very many fewer people alive!
I hate to think that any of this is political but——-I fear it is.
When you get a powerful Socialist Mayor like Andy Burnham and also Liverpool’s Mayor ,and a Conservative Government ,there are bound to be
times when one will score off the other.
If only they could work together ,but then ,life after Covid 19 needs consideration and Andy Burnham seems determined to get Manchester through this ,without coming through worse off, losing hard won gains .
Nice to see The Queen out and about ,what a charming colour she wore.
Hope this is all sorted out before she dies,she deserves every honour after her total dedication.
Cheerio ,take care everyone.
Viktoria.
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I like Andy Burnham as well. Whilst I agree with you that there are bound to be politics involved (aren't there always) I think he is genuinely trying to do what he was elected for - and protect the livelihoods of his people. He was on Question Time last week and was very articulate about the problem as he saw it.
He doesn't disagree that action needs to be taken to try to curb covid but he wants better support. A lot of these people aren't in jobs where they can work from home for a few weeks (and especially not 6 months!) and neither can they manage on less than three quarters of the minimum wage which is all that is on offer from the government. I'll be charitable and say that the London-centric Cabinet have no real knowledge of how the majority of people live. The problem is that they think they do and I think some of them (one in particular) are enjoying 'playing god'.
I've said all along that the government has centralised everything to do with covid and should have delegated a lot of it to the different regions, especially track and trace, which is currently a joke. However, I think they would need anaesthetising before they'd give any funding to local authorities rather than to private firms. The latest I hear is that they are giving millions to private consultants to - supposedly - help with track and trace.
For what its worth, I also read that quite a few of the statistics for covid hospitalisation include patients who were already in hospital for something else but caught covid whilst there!
More power to Andy's elbow!
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Hope this is all sorted out before she dies, she deserves every honour after her total dedication.
That would be awful wouldn't it, I don't see how you could prevent crowds.
Apparently she will be at the Cenotaph this year - didn't Prince Charles stand in for her last year? There will be no march past and no members of the public allowed, it will be very strange. Shame as it was 100 years ago this year that it was built.
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Well it stands to sense ,Andy Burnham would want the best for Manchester
even in the strictest conditions.
I tend to feel get it sorted ASAP,but there is after to be considered ,the long view, so unless the regions are treated the same as London ,you are right
we in the regions need people like Andy Burnham.
Do we keep that in mind or go all out to get the numbers down and then sort
“IT” out after ?
Not being a businessman I have no idea.
Viktoria.
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I see several posters keep referring to the mayor of Manchester. the Lord Mayor of Manchester is Councillor Abid Latif Chohan.
One of my sons lives in Greater Manchester. Andy Burnham was elected Mayor of the very large Metropolitan borough of GREATER MANCHESTER, which consists of ten metropolitan boroughs. These being:
Bolton, Bury, Oldham, Rochdale, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, Wigan, and the cities of Salford and Manchester.
On the news tonight there was a very passionate speech made by Tory MP and backed by several others of his party, all siding with the Labour Mayor Andy Burnham. These people would be failing in their duty if they did not fight for what they feel is best for their constituents.
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Many thanks,and apologies to Councillor Abid Latif Chohan.
Andy Burnham does make sense ,but at the same time a short spell of very tight restrictions may mean a shorter time when support is really necessary.
I think I would trust a local person for local issues than someone in London!
The Mayors have asked for things to be less centralised ,especially testing and tracing .
Thanks.
Viktoria.
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Many thanks,and apologies to Councillor Abid Latif Chohan.
Andy Burnham does make sense ,but at the same time a short spell of very tight restrictions may mean a shorter time when support is really necessary.
I think I would trust a local person for local issues than someone in London!
The Mayors have asked for things to be less centralised ,especially testing and tracing .
Thanks.
Viktoria.
From bits of conversations during discussion programmes, I think mayors, councillors and MPs of all parties have got together to voice their opinions and come to a unanimous conclusion, whether it's been about their own specific boroughs, or "like for like" metropolitan boroughs. I know that the Labour and Tory councillors and MP make joint announcements where I live.