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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: jrainbrim on Sunday 18 October 20 20:35 BST (UK)
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Can you help me with another mystery please. A Martha Downs is stated on a birth certificate in 1852 as the mother if my grt grandfather Joseph Barnes. Father is Samuel Barnes. I cannot find a marriage or birth for Martha.
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Hi
You don't tell us where this birth took place
ADDED Is this the birth
BARNS, JOSEPH mmn DOWNS
GRO Reference: 1852 March Quarter in LEWES CHAILEY WESTFIRLE AND NEWHAVEN Volume 02B Page 141
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Where do you have Joseph bn 1852 on the census
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On 1871, 1881 census.
I know he was born in 1852 as a cousin told me.
On the 1871 and 1881 census the birth place is incorrect.
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He was born in Lewes Sussex.
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Hello jrainbrim,
I have just split off your new inquiry into a new topic of its own.
Regards
Sarah
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Have you more details on 1871 & 1881, such as where Joseph is or who he's with. I'm having a lot of difficulty finding him
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On the 1871 and 1881 census the birth place is incorrect.
What incorrect birth place does he have?
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A Martha Downs is stated on a birth certificate in 1852 as the mother if my grt grandfather Joseph Barnes. Father is Samuel Barnes.
Does it say mother Martha Barnes nee Downs or just say mother Martha Downs?
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Sorry to keep showering you with questions :). It is better that we know where you have your Joseph on census, could you please post the details for 1871/1881.
Who did he marry, when & where. Does his marriage certificate name his father. Who were the witnesses.
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I've seen a tree on Ancestry that seems to connect records of a Joseph born Portsmouth or Isle of Wight to the 1852 birth in the opening post, but other details don;t quite make sense (and I can see suitable births in both locations)
It might be worth saying where we are working backwards from, if you have a later record you clearly know is him (eg due to presence of a known child)
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Don't know if this birth is related.
Daniel Barns Sep 1854 Rye Union has mothers maiden name Downs
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This is a proposed 1861 census for him, from Ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/HAMRG9_634_636-0013?pId=7821330
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thank you to all who have replied. Sorry late in answering, my broadband has been playing up.
Joseph Barnes/Barns born 1852 in Lewes Sussex married Ellen Williams born 1850 in Fishguard.
Married in Dover. Father of bride is James father of groom, Samuel.
On josephs birth certificate mothers name is Martha maiden name Downs.
On 1861 census Samuel, Joseph and Henry born 1833 are living in Portishead area. Census state Samuel's wife in Union.
Martha married Samuel in the Portishead area in 1824 both were widows. Martha's name was Frake.
Interesting that someone found Martha in a unionhouse with another son.
Thank you all.
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This is a proposed 1861 census for him, from Ancestry:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/HAMRG9_634_636-0013?pId=7821330
Thanks i have this one.
Just cannot find martha.
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On josephs birth certificate mothers name is Martha maiden name Downs.
On 1861 census Samuel, Joseph and Henry born 1833 are living in Portishead area. Census state Samuel's wife in Union.
Martha married Samuel in the Portishead area in 1824 both were widows. Martha's name was Frake.
The marriage between Martha Frake & Samuel Barnes was in 'Southampton', both were widowed.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N6N9-TXT
1861 census for those of us without an Ancestry sub
RG09/634 Folio 157 Page 38
St Mary's Lane, Portsea, Hampshire (not Portishead)
Samuel Barnes age 66 - Gipsy Labourer (Wife in Union)
Joseph Barnes son age 8
Henry Barnes son (Marr) age 28 Gipsy Basket Maker
..............
So that we can work backwards
Joseph Barnes married Ellen Williams in September qtr 1876 - Dover RD.
Is this your family in 1881 in Minster, Sheppey, Kent
RG11/978 Folio 81 Page 31
Joseph Barnes age 25 occ Gunner in Royal artillery born Ryde, IoW.
Ellen age 29 bn Pembroke
Samuel 3 bn Dover - birth reg has mmn Williams
Ann 5 months bn Sheerness (birth reg has Ann Martha Barnes mmn Williams)
Where do you have Joseph in 1871 - please post details
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Don't know if this birth is related.
Daniel Barns Sep 1854 Rye Union has mothers maiden name Downs
Just checking that out -
1861 census Portsea.RG09 /635 Folio 117 Page 2
Mary Barnes - married 37 born Portsmouth, Hampshire
Elizabeth Barnes 14 born Brighton, Sussex
William Barnes 11 born Worthing, Sussex
Daniel Barnes 6 born Udimore, Sussex
Kate Barnes 4 born Brighton, Sussex
Walter Barnes 1 born Broadwater, Sussex
BARNES, WALTER mmn DOWNES
GRO Reference: 1860 June Quarter in WORTHING Volume 02B Page 257
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What details are given on Josephs birth certificate - what was his fathers occupation
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What details are given on Josephs birth certificate - what was his fathers occupation
Joseph Barns. Mothers maiden name Downs. Father Samuel Barns. Occupation, Sailor.
The writing on the certificate is not very clear though.
Downs, could be something else I suppose.
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The 1824 marriage that you have gives Martha's surname as Frake, she is a widow. Do you have her earlier marriage.
Where do you have Martha on the 1861 census, Samuels entry indicates she is in the union. You mention that someone has located her with a child
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I'm beginning to wonder if all these threads actually tie up properly.
Personally I cannot see how Samuel can have been a gipsy labourer in 1861, having been a sailor in 1852. That particular 1861 census page is missing the last all-important column, the place of birth. So we don't know where any of those three was born. We need another census, preferably 1871. But unfortunately, Samuel could have died by then, Joseph would have been 18 and maybe already out in the world. Given that Henry and Joseph would appear to be brothers, albeit with a 20 year age gap, can Henry be found with Samuel in previous 1851 census?
When did Joseph die, please? Have you worked backwards from that point to locate him on every census, matching up the birth-places each time to ensure that you have the correct Joseph (there are a lot of them about ;) )? I see that you say that 1871 and 1881 census has the incorrect birthplace. Do the children's names and wife's name otherwise match? Do their birth-places match with the birth certificates? Is there any possibility that there has been some mis-identification at some point. :-\
And it is still possible that Samuel did not marry Martha, even though they might have said they were married. :(
Nell
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1891 Joseph born Brighton, Sussex
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HMNX-MZM
1901 Joseph born Brighton, Sussex
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X91G-5SM
1911 census born Isle of Wight
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXH-235
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I am also not convinced about the information before 1881 census. I also have doubts about Gipsy & Sailor. I am still looking to see what I can locate ;D
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Joseph and Ellen/Eleanors children
BARNES, SAMUEL JAMES mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1878 June Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 909
BARNES, ANN MARTHA mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1880 Dec Quarter in SHEPPEY Volume 02A Page 819
BARNES, WILLIAM mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1883 June Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 371
BARNES, MARY mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1889 Sept Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 595
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The 1824 marriage that you have gives Martha's surname as Frake, she is a widow. Do you have her earlier marriage.
Where do you have Martha on the 1861 census, Samuels entry indicates she is in the union. You mention that someone has located her with a child
I cannot find her earlier marriage. I have not found her in 1861, dont know which area she is in exactly.Not sure the Martha with another child is my Martha either.
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Joseph and Ellen/Eleanors children
BARNES, SAMUEL JAMES mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1878 June Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 909
BARNES, ANN MARTHA mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1880 Dec Quarter in SHEPPEY Volume 02A Page 819
BARNES, WILLIAM mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1883 June Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 371
BARNES, MARY mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1889 Sept Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 595
William is my grandfather. My mother was his youngest child. I never met him. He died before my mother left school.
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I'm beginning to wonder if all these threads actually tie up properly.
Personally I cannot see how Samuel can have been a gipsy labourer in 1861, having been a sailor in 1852. That particular 1861 census page is missing the last all-important column, the place of birth. So we don't know where any of those three was born. We need another census, preferably 1871. But unfortunately, Samuel could have died by then, Joseph would have been 18 and maybe already out in the world. Given that Henry and Joseph would appear to be brothers, albeit with a 20 year age gap, can Henry be found with Samuel in previous 1851 census?
I
When did Joseph die, please? Have you worked backwards from that point to locate him on every census, matching up the birth-places each time to ensure that you have the correct Joseph (there are a lot of them about ;) )? I see that you say that 1871 and 1881 census has the incorrect birthplace. Do the children's names and wife's name otherwise match? Do their birth-places match with the birth certificates? Is there any possibility that there has been some mis-identification at some point. :-\
And it is still possible that Samuel did not marry Martha, even though they might have said they were married. :(
Nell
I cannot find Samuel or Henry in 1851.
The birth places are correct for everyone except Joseph in 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911. My mother always said her father, William, was born in Isle of Wight, but I now know this to be incorrect he was born in Wales.The only Joseph Barnes I found born in 1852 died in the same year. So I don't know why J states he was on there, did the census recorder mishear the place of birth given? Could Lewes Brighton be mistaken for I ofW?
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The only Joseph Barnes I found born in 1852 died in the same year. So I don't know why J states he was on there, did the census recorder mishear the place of birth given? Could Lewes Brighton be mistaken for I ofW?
It is possible that 'your' Josephs birth was never registered, many were not in the early years of registration.
Forms would have been filled in for the census enumerator to collect and then copy details on to the returns we can see. The form that we see in 1911 was completed by his wife.
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What does Joseph give as his father's occupation on his 1876 marriage certificate? If it is vaguely related to seamanship then the 1852 certificate might be correct. But that is then at odds with the gipsy labourer.
Looking at the variation in birth places, Joseph is not consistent. Perhaps he didn't know where he was born. Brighton is a short distance along the south coast from Lewes, but there is no way that it could be mistaken for the Isle of Wight.
Have you followed up on his army record at all? When did he leave the army?
Nell
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The only Joseph Barnes I found born in 1852 died in the same year. So I don't know why J states he was on there, did the census recorder mishear the place of birth given? Could Lewes Brighton be mistaken for I ofW?
It is possible that 'your' Josephs birth was never registered, many were not in the early years of registration.
Forms would have been filled in for the census enumerator to collect and then copy details on to the returns we can see. The form that we see in 1911 was completed by his wife.
The 1911 was filled in by his daughter Mary.
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What does Joseph give as his father's occupation on his 1876 marriage certificate? If it is vaguely related to seamanship then the 1852 certificate might be correct. But that is then at odds with the gipsy labourer.
Looking at the variation in birth places, Joseph is not consistent. Perhaps he didn't know where he was born. Brighton is a short distance along the south coast from Lewes, but there is no way that it could be mistaken for the Isle of Wight.
Have you followed up on his army record at all? When did he leave the army?
Nell
Ah ha! Samuel is a sailor!,
Think this might mean that the family I found on 1861 census, is not belonging to me. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. I do not know when he left the army. I cannot find a record yet.
Thanks for helping me.
Jude.
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Did Josephs birth certificate mention where he was born. Could you please give the date of birth
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Did Josephs birth certificate mention where he was born. Could you please give the date of birth
January 1852 Lewes Sussex.
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I'm making a few assumptions here based on the information you have given over the course of this thread. The first is that the birth certificate you have is for
Joseph Barns (as per FreeBMD), birth registered March quarter 1852 Lewes registration district.
He therefore could have been born in any of the following localities, all of which lie within the Lewes Registration district:
Alciston Barcombe Beddingham Berwick Bishopstone Chailey Chalvington Denton Ditchling East Blatchington East Chitlington Falmer Falmer Firle Glynde Hamsey Iford Kingston near Lewes Lewes Newhaven Newick Ovingdean Peacehaven Piddinghoe Piddinghoe Plumpton Ringmer Ripe Rodmell Rottingdean Seaford Selmeston South Heighton South Malling Southease Stanmer Streat Tarring Neville Telscombe West Firle Westmeston Wivelsfield
That's a lot of possible places where Joseph might actually have been born!
You also say that it gives his father's occupation as a sailor, mother's maiden name Downs.
There is a baptism as Ditchling on 28 March 1852 for a Joseph Barns, son of Samuel and Martha Barns. The father's occupation is travelling hawker. This is the only baptism for a child of Samuel & Martha Barn(e)s in Ditchling. By their very nature, travellers do not often stay in one place for very long so tracing their movements after this is not going to be easy.
I cannot find a Joseph Barnes (with the 'e') birth registration in the Lewes district in 1852, so I have to conclude the one I gave above is the same one that you found and for which you have the certificate.
I note also that you say the writing is not clear on it. I can't see how hawker could look like sailor, but I might be wrong. :-\
There is a birth registered in the Rye Registration district for Daniel Barns, September quarter 1854, mother's maiden name Downs. There is a baptism for a Daniel Richard Barns at Udimore on 1st October 1854, parents Samuel and Martha Barns whose abode is listed as Brighton. Samuel is a chair mender.
So the 1861 census entry showing Samuel, gipsy labourer, aged 66 with a son Joseph aged 8 living in Portsea would be for the father and son shown in the 1852 Ditchling baptism.
Following up on the Walter Barnes in rosie's post (reply no 16 on Monday) whose mother's maiden name was shown as Downes, there is a baptism in Broadwater on 1 April 1860 for Walter Barnes, son of Samuel Barns, a traveller and Sarah . Since that 1861 census entry for Mary, Elizabeth, William, Daniel, Kate & Walter is for Portsea Workhouse, there are no relationships to go on. This is getting more and more convoluted.
This sort of puzzle demonstrates how important every scrap of information might be when trying to sort out which lead might be the correct one - and which might be the one that leads you astray. You may have to track down every Samuel Barn(e)s and hope to find a Joseph or a Martha as well.
You still have not said when Joseph died. I don't suppose there is any chance that he survived until 1939?
Nell
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I'm making a few assumptions here based on the information you have given over the course of this thread. The first is that the birth certificate you have is for
Joseph Barns (as per FreeBMD), birth registered March quarter 1852 Lewes registration district.
He therefore could have been born in any of the following localities, all of which lie within the Lewes Registration district:
Alciston Barcombe Beddingham Berwick Bishopstone Chailey Chalvington Denton Ditchling East Blatchington East Chitlington Falmer Falmer Firle Glynde Hamsey Iford Kingston near Lewes Lewes Newhaven Newick Ovingdean Peacehaven Piddinghoe Piddinghoe Plumpton Ringmer Ripe Rodmell Rottingdean Seaford Selmeston South Heighton South Malling Southease Stanmer Streat Tarring Neville Telscombe West Firle Westmeston Wivelsfield
That's a lot of possible places where Joseph might actually have been born!
You also say that it gives his father's occupation as a sailor, mother's maiden name Downs.
There is a baptism as Ditchling on 28 March 1852 for a Joseph Barns, son of Samuel and Martha Barns. The father's occupation is travelling hawker. This is the only baptism for a child of Samuel & Martha Barn(e)s in Ditchling. By their very nature, travellers do not often stay in one place for very long so tracing their movements after this is not going to be easy.
I cannot find a Joseph Barnes (with the 'e') birth registration in the Lewes district in 1852, so I have to conclude the one I gave above is the same one that you found and for which you have the certificate.
I note also that you say the writing is not clear on it. I can't see how hawker could look like sailor, but I might be wrong. :-\
There is a birth registered in the Rye Registration district for Daniel Barns, September quarter 1854, mother's maiden name Downs. There is a baptism for a Daniel Richard Barns at Udimore on 1st October 1854, parents Samuel and Martha Barns whose abode is listed as Brighton. Samuel is a chair mender.
So the 1861 census entry showing Samuel, gipsy labourer, aged 66 with a son Joseph aged 8 living in Portsea would be for the father and son shown in the 1852 Ditchling baptism.
Following up on the Walter Barnes in rosie's post (reply no 16 on Monday) whose mother's maiden name was shown as Downes, there is a baptism in Broadwater on 1 April 1860 for Walter Barnes, son of Samuel Barns, a traveller and Sarah . Since that 1861 census entry for Mary, Elizabeth, William, Daniel, Kate & Walter is for Portsea Workhouse, there are no relationships to go on. This is getting more and more convoluted.
This sort of puzzle demonstrates how important every scrap of information might be when trying to sort out which lead might be the correct one - and which might be the one that leads you astray. You may have to track down every Samuel Barn(e)s and hope to find a Joseph or a Martha as well.
You still have not said when Joseph died. I don't suppose there is any chance that he survived until 1939?
Nell
Thanks for all this Nell, I really appreciate it. I'll check on what you have given me.
Joseph died 1924 in Aberdare.
Jude
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I thought I lost it but, i have found Josephs birth certificate in another file.
Joseph was born in Ditchling which is in the Lewes district.
Mother Martha.
Maiden name looks like Downs on certificate.
Samuel Barns, his father, occupation is not stated on my copy of the BC.
Could you send me copies of info you have please?
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The baptism of Walter Barns in Broadwater can be seen here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRT9-KVQ?i=265&cat=451874
You will need to sign up for a free account with FamilySearch to view it.
The Ditchling and Udimore baptisms came from a transcription and that is all the information given.
Nell
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Thanks for this.
So Samuel must have remarried again.
There could not possible be two Samuel Barns both travelers living in Ditchling.
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I have had chance to look at Josephs BC again.
I was wrong about his fathers occupation was missing.
It states that his father was a labourer.