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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Worcestershire => Topic started by: Mansl on Tuesday 20 October 20 16:38 BST (UK)
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I have a Martha Mansell burial 4/9/1911. The image of the burial is in a Parish register that says Burials in the Parish of Bromsgrove. Now Martha's abode says Dodford and the vicar is down as W G Whinfield vicar of Dodford yet the other entries on the page are different vicars mainly one with a surname Orpwood. What I am after finding out which Churchyard she was buried in because I would like to go and see if there is a gravestone because her husband Richard died in 1930 and I don't have his burial and he may well have a gravestone there with her. I can see there are or were six churches in that area one being at Dodford but would anyone have any idea if they only buried at one church. I think its a toss up between All Saints Bromsgrove and Holy Trinity and St Mary's Dodford. I am thinking because the vicar put his name on the burial and the church he was from he may be doing the service at All Saints. Alan
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Surely if it is the burial register is for the parish of Bromsgrove, then she was buried at Bromsgrove?
If she had been buried at Dodford then the record would be in the parish Register for the parish of Dodford.
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Yes I see what you are saying, I was wondering if someone was going to say they didn't do burials at Dodford. I also thought they may use the same register and there is a cemetery. Alan
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I can't remember where I obtained this burial page. I must have got it from Worcester Library a few years ago and should have noted which Parish register it was in.
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Your first post said it was in the Parish Register of Bromsgrove!
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It’s not an area I’m familiar with, but a look on Google street view there isn’t a grave to be seen at All Saints, whereas there are at Holy Trinity and St. Mary, Dodford. Then there is the Municipal Cemetery to be considered as well.
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Yes Burials in the Parish of Bromsgrove. When I googled Parish of Bromsgrove it gave me six churches one being Dodford.
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A burial in a Municipal cemetery wont be recorded in a Parish Register. A Parish Register will only have burials made in the Churchyard of that Parish Church.
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I am the same I have only drove through Bromsgrove past Dodford to Kidderminster.
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Most of the Parish registers I have looked at have the name of the Church at the top thats what threw me. I could start at the Municipal one first then.
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In Leamington Spa there is a cemetery but the burial services are at the individual churches.
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I would say most likely is St John , Bromsgrove.
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Ok I will have a look at that. thanks
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Richard's death was registered in Upton on Severn
How likely are either of them to have a headstone? They had no children although married since 1869. Richard was a coachman and neither left a will.
They died in different RD's which would have meant Richard being "transported" to Dodford which was approx 15 miles away and would have cost money
Does the burial register show a grave number?
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When you put it like that it don't look good. :) thanks. Alan
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A burial in a Municipal cemetery wont be recorded in a Parish Register. A Parish Register will only have burials made in the Churchyard of that Parish Church.
That’s not entirely correct, I have found some burials in Municipal Cemeteries recorded in PRs, the same with cremations. The situation varies according to different places and churches.
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Thanks Jebber. Looking at the abode of some of the other people on the burial pages they are from Birmingham Rd, Hanover St, The Strand, Worcester St, Old Station Road. They are all near the center of Bromsgrove. With the usual vicar. So its a bit like we do now at the Crematorium you use your own vicar and Martha had the vicar from Dodford. So the burial is probably at the municipal. As for Richard who was a coachman and a grocer its like CaroleW said Upton is miles away so they wouldn't be together. If they had children it might have been differentbecause they would have known where the mother was. Alan
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Alan, Your post have given me a necessary jog, thank you. I really need to familiarise myself with that area, and get back to doing some research on my late husband’s family, some of whom came from that region.
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That's okay, sat here every day just thought I would try to find some extra info for my book. Just picking out relations that I have dead ends to. I could spend a fortune ordering a load of certificates, just spent £50 last week on 4 PDF's and two marriages but it is nice when these clever people on here find out things you never expected. I can't get to the Records office which is five minutes away because its too much rigmarole to get booked in. I don't think they want us in there anyway because they can only have so many in there at once and have their usual friends in there. Alan
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Hi Alan,
yes, there are burials at Dodford church and the vicar in 1911 was Whinfield.
I found this death notice in the Bromsgrove Messenger of 2 Sept 1911. I looked through the following week's paper but didn't find a write up on the funeral (not that many in at that time, these seem to be more common after WW1).
Dodford church was only completed in 1908, so I would think that it might be possible that early entries could be in a different parish register, St Johns possibly. Something similar happened with Belbroughton church and Fairfield church in that some early entries for Fairfield are in the Belbroughton register with an F by the entry.
Do you have a date of death for Richard, only if so I could see if his death is mentioned in the Bromsgrove Messenger?
Maybe he moved to Upton on Severn if the death is registered there.
Lisa
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Thank you Lisa at least I now have her death date which I didn't have. I don't have Richard's death date no only that its 1930. Alan
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this is the burial page for Martha.
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His death is registered in Dec qtr so I suppose that narrows it down a bit. I can see the area for Upton is quite widespread.
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Did you see this register at the Worcester archives/hive? Only if you look at this link, https://www.worcesterbmsgh.co.uk/parish/bromsgrove-all-saints
that would suggest that All Saints church doesn't have burial records there.
Also notice the final entry is by the curate of All Saints, so might that suggest these are burials in the cemetery, with services at various churches? So it would be the burial book for the cemetery. Not really sure though.
Lisa
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Yes I think you are correct it did cross my mind because of no Church at the top. I can't remember what register I got the burial out of it was a long time ago.
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I will probably one day go to Worcester B/Hive again for the day and go through all the parish burials reg. by Upton. Its so rewarding when you find something no matter how long it takes. Alan
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Yes, it's definitely worth the search.
I don't know the Upton on Severn area at all, so can't make any suggestions where to start.
Good luck.
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I have been through that area many times but its just a coincidence that I started my family tree to find out if I was related to Nigel Mansell, but I have found him no where in my tree nor his parents Eric and Joyce. He actually was born in Upton on Severn in 1953 but his birth is registered in Malvern. I had wondered if Richard had remarried but I couldn't find one near enough. Alan
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Genuki -
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/WOR/Bromsgrove
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Also the Parishes that come under Upton.
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/upton%20on%20severn.html
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I think I will send for his death certificate. That should give me the info I need. Alan
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Oops! I was looking at Martha's burial record :-[
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That's ok, thanks for your input :) :). I have sent for the PDF, I was only concentrating on Martha at first forgot about the certificate. Alan
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So I suppose it will tell me if he was single ?.
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So it would be the burial book for the cemetery. Not really sure though.
But the page clearly says "Burials for the Parish of Bromsgrove".
Burials in a municipal cemetery would not be linked to a particular Church.
Not all burial registers state the name of the Church at the top (i.e St Lukes, St Marks, etc) but many just say the name of the Parish. Here it is Bromsgrove, and I think the main parish Church is actually called St John the Baptist.
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Richard Mansell died 24/12/1930 Great Malvern Hospital.
Living at Brook Cottage, Upper Welland, Malvern Wells.
Alan
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Another thing I will have to find out is where this person fits in.
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Alan,
I think it's always this way, you get one question answered, but more raised :)
So perhaps he had moved to be nearer family.
Quick turnaround on the death cert, that's handy to know. I haven't ordered any pdf's recently and didn't know how the timing was being affected by the current situation.
Lisa
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Takes 4 days for a PDF and a week for a certificate which is what it was before lockdown. This sister in law has to be his wife's sister because if it was his brothers wife it would be Mansell. As far as Martha's family(Shea) goes she was born in Wales. So I don't have her registered birth nor her mothers maiden name. I know her father is Thomas from the marriage but the first census I have is 1871 after the marriage in 1869. Alan
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Martha was 30 in November 1869. 31 in 1871 which if right means her birthday was between the census and November, 1881 she was 40, 1891 50, 1901 60, 1911 75?. Death 1911 Aug 76?. Alan
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The only death I can see for J Thomas in Upton is a Jane A Thomas aged 88 in 1937. So that might even be her.
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Surprise surprise. The signature is not J Thomas its J Thornes. I have just found Richard with a new wife in 1921. He married Helena Thornes in 1911 born 1855 Eleanor she died 1929 Eleanor M M. Alan
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Well done :-* Perseverance pays off once again!