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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: BushInn1746 on Tuesday 20 October 20 16:54 BST (UK)

Title: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Tuesday 20 October 20 16:54 BST (UK)
Government (England) on TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening (believed to be 19.00 hrs, 7pm)
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Viktoria on Tuesday 20 October 20 22:56 BST (UK)
Thanks , I have no TV mag this week.
It is a mess isn't it, who to believe Andy Burnham or Boris..
It would seem the £60 million is for a far larger area than  than the other Northern  areas getting the same .amount .
But people are starting to wonder if Andy Burnham is on a self aggrandisement trip.
Whatever it is all a huge mess and still people not taking it seriously .
 Viktoria.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Wednesday 21 October 20 08:39 BST (UK)

and still people not taking it seriously.
Viktoria.

It seems the SARS-CoV-2 Spike (S) Protein, has mutated or changed.
(National Center for Biotechnology Information, US National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

The ACE2 Receptor is found in some of the major organs and linked to the arterial system (also linked to regulation of BP).

ACE2 (Angiotensin Converting Enzyme 2) is an enzyme attached to the cell membranes of cells located in the lungs, arteries, heart, kidney, and intestines.

Half of your last sentence Viktoria sums up the dangerous attitude of some quite eloquently.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: mowsehowse on Wednesday 21 October 20 08:53 BST (UK)
So true Viktoria, a HUGE mess, and people in tier 3 areas merrily going out of area to use a gym in tier 2 areas.  :'(
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 21 October 20 17:18 BST (UK)
Viktoria reply #1. I know which one I'm less likely to believe, based on past performances. Part of the problem is that trust has broken down. It's been eroding for 6 months. (Peter Hennessy, constitutional historian, cites 10 days in May, beginning with PM's confusing TV address, made without consulting other national or regional leaders, as the start of erosion of trust.)  Oldham Council leader said last night on "Newsnight" that they wouldn't accept an offer unless it was in writing.
Re. "self aggrandisement" claim. This is part of the personalisation and divide & conquer tactics used against northern leaders during the past fortnight. GM mayor has been added to the list of enemies and scapegoats. Lisa Nandy said today that the government is "weirdly obsessed" with Andy Burnham. (Sky News) There's an article in today's "Independent" about the battle between Johnson and Burnham and how devolution isn't working. I can't find it again.
Letter today signed by 40 northern leaders. 
 
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Rena on Wednesday 21 October 20 18:19 BST (UK)
there are some really unrealistic people in this world, who think that a minority of a population can subsidise the majority.

There's nearly 65 million people in the overpopulated UK,

about 3.5 million work in the public sector.   

The majority of private sector workers are either on short time or laid off and hoping to be paid by "the government" = the taxpayers.

The country's borrowing now equals that of WWII when my factory worker father and others paid a standard 45% tax on his 40 hours per week wages. Excepting for children's clothes; Purchase Tax could be anything from 25% to 75% (more for jewellery).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_United_Kingdom_employers
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Llwyd on Wednesday 21 October 20 22:25 BST (UK)
I'm afraid that the massive debt will need to be serviced at some point but we need to realise it will be a lengthy, painful task. So lengthy, in fact, our great grandchildren will still be feeling the pain when we are long gone and governments still won't have any money of their own.
It doesn't matter what, where, when and how it happens, there will still be people who feel disgruntled, no doubt some justifiably so but also some who just enjoy a sense of grievance. The majority of us just grit our teeth, gird our loins (am I allowed to say that now?) and get on with life.
 :)
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: LizzieL on Thursday 22 October 20 13:49 BST (UK)

and still people not taking it seriously.
Viktoria.

The most serious thing to some people is "spoiling their fun"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-54631524
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Rena on Thursday 22 October 20 15:40 BST (UK)
I'm afraid that the massive debt will need to be serviced at some point but we need to realise it will be a lengthy, painful task. So lengthy, in fact, our great grandchildren will still be feeling the pain when we are long gone and governments still won't have any money of their own.

 The majority of us just grit our teeth, gird our loins (am I allowed to say that now?) and get on with life.   :)

I find myself having unexpected "power naps" these days, thus only caught one part of the statements.

I did catch most of the Treasurers Q and A this afternoon though and it seemed to me that if a person isn't an expert at working out which group(s) heading they come under then their pockets will be nearly empty instead of nearly full.

Some of the best ideas have emerged in times of adversity and I'm pretty sure many British people will have a "light bulb" moment of ingenuity during their time of enforced lockdown, which will need the expertise of either the Prince's Trust or the local area's Enterprise Trust, to put their ideas in the market place.



Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 22 October 20 15:54 BST (UK)
I don't know why an exception can't be made this year to extend DST...we will all benefit from the extra daylight as our freedom inevitably will be curtailed the further we go into winter.
There are so many benefits to all concerned, not least for the elderly and the lonely.
Carol
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 22 October 20 20:17 BST (UK)
I don't know why an exception can't be made this year to extend DST...we will all benefit from the extra daylight as our freedom inevitably will be curtailed the further we go into winter.
There are so many benefits to all concerned, not least for the elderly and the lonely.
Carol

Except for those living in the far north & west?
Scotland, for example, would be in the dark for much longer periods of time.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 22 October 20 20:26 BST (UK)

Scotland, for example, would be in the dark for much longer periods of time.

Umm - they would be in the dark for the same length of time - just at a different time. I lived in the far NW and the sun rose at about 9.30 am and set at about 3.30 pm ish.  If we kept daylight saving, it would rise at 10.30am and set at 4.30 -same length of darkness, just at a  different time.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 23 October 20 21:35 BST (UK)
As an example, London currently has approx 10 hrs 24 mins of daylight.
Glasgow has approx 9 hrs 52 mins.
Isle of Man has 10 hrs 11 mins.

The differences will grow as we approach the Winter Solstice.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Gadget on Friday 23 October 20 22:02 BST (UK)
Goodness, Kevin, I bet no one knew that

 :-X :-X :-X
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Rena on Saturday 24 October 20 02:06 BST (UK)
Until the advent of the railway, all towns had their own different times, which made it rather difficult to estimate when the next train would be arriving at Platform X - (nothing changes lol.)

I worked for a large company owned by Quakers in the 1950s-1960s.  In those days we had one and a half hours for lunch/dinner. This was plenty of time for everyone to cycle home for dinner or shop in the town centre.  The company then expanded, built a new factory out in the sticks and then asked the employees what hours we should work. Factory floor employees worked 40 pr week, office workers worked 37.5 hours per week.  The company had given options of starting later, closing earlier, shorter dinner hour.

As 78% of our products were exported, our chief salesman and export director had the last word.  Nothing was changed, we worked the same number of hours and we started and finished work at the same time, in order not to confuse our customers.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: JenB on Saturday 24 October 20 10:19 BST (UK)
As an example, London currently has approx 10 hrs 24 mins of daylight.
Glasgow has approx 9 hrs 52 mins.
Isle of Man has 10 hrs 11 mins.

The differences will grow as we approach the Winter Solstice.

I’m not quite sure what point you’re trying to make?
There will always be differences in daylight hours as you move north or south.
Changing the clocks will make no difference at all to this.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 24 October 20 15:44 BST (UK)
As an example, London currently has approx 10 hrs 24 mins of daylight.
Glasgow has approx 9 hrs 52 mins.
Isle of Man has 10 hrs 11 mins.

The differences will grow as we approach the Winter Solstice.

I’m not quite sure what point you’re trying to make?
There will always be differences in daylight hours as you move north or south.
Changing the clocks will make no difference at all to this.

Thanks, Jen.  That was exactly my point when I replied. DST/GMT doesn't change the length of darkness, just the time!

Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: KGarrad on Monday 26 October 20 07:33 GMT (UK)
As an example, London currently has approx 10 hrs 24 mins of daylight.
Glasgow has approx 9 hrs 52 mins.
Isle of Man has 10 hrs 11 mins.

The differences will grow as we approach the Winter Solstice.

I’m not quite sure what point you’re trying to make?
There will always be differences in daylight hours as you move north or south.
Changing the clocks will make no difference at all to this.

Thanks, Jen.  That was exactly my point when I replied. DST/GMT doesn't change the length of darkness, just the time!
 

But it does change the times of day of daylight?
Daylight at 8:00 or 8:30 in SE may be OK, but daylight at 9:00 or 9:30 further north & west can be problematic.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Guy Etchells on Monday 26 October 20 08:17 GMT (UK)

Scotland, for example, would be in the dark for much longer periods of time.

Umm - they would be in the dark for the same length of time - just at a different time. I lived in the far NW and the sun rose at about 9.30 am and set at about 3.30 pm ish.  If we kept daylight saving, it would rise at 10.30am and set at 4.30 -same length of darkness, just at a  different time.

Only if the weather was the same each day, if one day had clear skies it would be lighter longer than a cloudy rainy day. ;)
It is quite surprising how much rain clouds can effect light levels.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 26 October 20 14:47 GMT (UK)
Only if the weather was the same each day, if one day had clear skies it would be lighter longer than a cloudy rainy day. ;)
It is quite surprising how much rain clouds can effect light levels.

Curtains closed and lights on at 4.30p.m. GMT yesterday. Last week my lighting-up time was 6.30/7p.m. BST; I worked in the SW facing back garden until dusk on 2 bright, cold days. Flowers on evening primrose in SE position in front garden have been open continuously for 3 days, so according to Evening Primrose Time we are nearly 72 hours into evening and may have another 96 or more hours to go. We were on Daisy Time last week. 
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Gadget on Monday 26 October 20 15:41 GMT (UK)
I'm not quite sure why we got on to sun times, etc.

However, this is an interesting site. I have used where I live:

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/newcastle-upon-tyne



Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Saturday 31 October 20 15:03 GMT (UK)
England PM to brief the country at 5pm Today.

Some are saying 4pm, so whether a Scientific Briefing is to precede the PM or go along with the 5pm Briefing, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: LizzieL on Saturday 31 October 20 15:12 GMT (UK)
BBC website saying it was scheduled for 16.00 but has been put back to 17.00.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54762048
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Saturday 31 October 20 16:37 GMT (UK)
BBC website saying it was scheduled for 16.00 but has been put back to 17.00.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54762048

Being reported by Press that they feel England might be put into Lockdown.

Details by PM at 17.00 hours.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Romilly on Saturday 31 October 20 16:42 GMT (UK)
From what I've read, it's going to last from next Thursday until the 2nd December...
(According to Robert Peston).

Romilly.

Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Dyingout on Saturday 31 October 20 17:12 GMT (UK)
Now scheduled for 18:30
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Rena on Saturday 31 October 20 18:36 GMT (UK)
England -v- Italy rugby has been taking my interst this afternoon.

If the PM announces anything new in my opinion he should be announcing that anyone found actively ignoring the health regulations, not only will their names, etc be taken, but their place of work will be taken and their employers notified.

I'm retired, but I would definitely be sacking any of my workers who by their deliberate actions endangered the lives of others.

Only people with money can afford to go out partying and drinking, which in the main I would guess would be town hall and other workers paid by the taxpayer plus those who work in the food industry.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Top-of-the-hill on Saturday 31 October 20 19:28 GMT (UK)
  That will be the hospital porters, binmen, social workers, prison officers......
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: heywood on Saturday 31 October 20 19:33 GMT (UK)

I'm retired, but I would definitely be sacking any of my workers who by their deliberate actions endangered the lives of others


What would you do with the employers whose actions endanger the lives of others?
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Viktoria on Saturday 31 October 20 19:35 GMT (UK)
We pussy foot around in a great many things,where  other countries come down hard.
Not just Covid 19.
Human rights and all that sort of thing. But we all have some rights and I’ll be dashed if I sit back when selfish morons just won’ t use any social conscience
they just might have.

I wonder how many cases will develop from the 100+guests at a recent wedding!?
Utter selfishness, and it should be dealt with really hard.
Can they not equate their actions with possible strain on the NHS and Health Workers.
Wonder what they would say if told ,” Sorry mate, but you in all probability
got the Virus at that wedding where there were far far too many guests.
We will isolate you ,but as far as treatment goes, our staff are busy looking  after  others ,:-
 people who have stuck to the rules but because of the likes if you are sadly now ill.
You are on your own mate!”

Oh dear ,the poor little darlings —- Grrrrrr!
Victoria the vicious - vindictive - vile etc etc etc .
Viktoria.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: groom on Saturday 31 October 20 19:41 GMT (UK)
The whole thing is ridiculous - too little, too late. If he'd listened to SAGE and the doctors when they advised a two week circuit break five weeks ago, it wouldn't have come to this. He's left it too late again and still won't admit that he was wrong. All four countries should have locked down at the same time.

He's now said " But it's my sincere hope and belief that by taking tough action now, we can allow families across the country to be together, for Christmas."  How can he even hope to do that, if he then allows people to meet up it will mean another lockdown in January or February.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Caw1 on Saturday 31 October 20 20:08 GMT (UK)
Couldn’t agree with you more Viktoria and groom...
Why didn’t he take the opportunity with half term to have a week before and a week after so at least kids would only miss the one week of school but everyone else would have 3 wks...
I know the  economy needs to continue but really why aren’t the people who are blatantly flouting the requests made of them not being fined....
It beggars belief really I’m virtually speechless 😤😤😤

Caroline
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Llwyd on Saturday 31 October 20 20:12 GMT (UK)
But then in Wales we are half way(ish) through a two week(ish) lockdown, a "firebreak" (a rose by any other name), and even at the start of that we were being told we may well need another one early January. Too little too late here?. Also, the local, not very effective, lockdowns will be abandoned on 9th November, when the lockdown ends, for a set of, yet to be announced, national restrictions on our lives.
Whatever happens, until we have some sort of effective prevention/reduction in disease effect via vaccine/tablet available, we will be in and out of lockdowns everywhere.
However, what I find strange is that very few have recognised the correlation between the rise in infection rates, the opening of universities and the behaviour we have witnessed outside licenced premises in various cities/areas with high numbers of university students.
I must admit if I was their age I would probably take the same selfish view, but I am older, wiser and fully aware of my own, together with that of others, mortality.
  :)
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: guest189040 on Saturday 31 October 20 20:39 GMT (UK)
We are Governed by imbeciles.

It does not take a PHD in Science or statistical Maths to work out that the way to limit this crisis is to have phased Total Lockdowns periodically.

Kids half term was a golden opportunity to add on a couple of more weeks.

Hopefully this four week period will be supported and the authorities come down hard on those that flout the rules.

If all goes well the rules at Christmas can be relaxed for a week or two and when the cases rise in the New Year (as they will) then another lockdown can be planned for. 

Surely these cyclic lockdowns are the way forward until an effective vaccine is produced and our fellow citizens are inoculated.

Mind you a Facebook friend of my Wife suffered an acute Asthma Attack and she was taken into her local A&E against her will only by the Ambulance service only to be placed in a four bay holding area where the other three were snorting and coughing, there were no effective screens between them and none were given facemasks to wear.  She videoed her experiences and is now terrified she could have been infected.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: groom on Saturday 31 October 20 21:37 GMT (UK)
Quote
However, what I find strange is that very few have recognised the correlation between the rise in infection rates, the opening of universities and the behaviour we have witnessed outside licenced premises in various cities/areas with high numbers of university students.

I think people have noticed it, but have been shouted down by the "students needed to go back, they need to have a normal life" brigade (not on here). I feel really sorry for the freshers, they certainly didn't have a normal start to Uni - no fresher's week, being told to isolate in rooms so not able to make friends, the threat of not being allowed home for Christmas, very little face to face teaching etc. I wonder how many will drop out, or end up with mental problems. I think it would have been far better to have given them all a gap year. From distant memories, those first few weeks at Uni were the best weeks of my life up until then. I wonder how this year's freshers will look back on it.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Saturday 31 October 20 22:17 GMT (UK)
Lockdown won't get rid of the virus, it will hopefully only reduce the number of new daily infections.

It is highly infectious.

We have cancelled any thought or plans of travelling and meeting family until next year.

Some Covid-19 positives have no symptons. When some do test positive some take no precautions.

Travel spreads it too.

Mark
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Rena on Saturday 31 October 20 23:08 GMT (UK)

I'm retired, but I would definitely be sacking any of my workers who by their deliberate actions endangered the lives of others


What would you do with the employers whose actions endanger the lives of others?

I don't feel sorry for anyone who puts the wellbeing of others firmly at the back of their mind just so they can enjoy themselves.

Usually self employed and owners of small companies are working all hours God sends, thus might not have time for pleasures..  I suppose, they could have been the ones who had sufficient money in their back pockets to drive up to 500 miles to the seaside.- - thus introducing the virus into places that had escaped the scourge.

We've discovered many carriers don't know who they've been in contact with

If the police had been taking every partygoer's name, we would have future reference so that we could hit them where it hurt = their pockets.

I might not be so harsh if I had not been the victim of several cancelled medical appointments due to lockdowns over several months .
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Saturday 31 October 20 23:31 GMT (UK)
The UK Military have been asked to draw up plans to assist in the fight against the virus.

"30 October 2020 — Guidance

Military personnel are supporting public services across the UK to assist with the response to COVID-19. This page has the latest information on the MOD’s activities.
"

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/covid-support-force-the-mods-continued-contribution-to-the-coronavirus-response

Mark
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: heywood on Saturday 31 October 20 23:40 GMT (UK)

I'm retired, but I would definitely be sacking any of my workers who by their deliberate actions endangered the lives of others


What would you do with the employers whose actions endanger the lives of others?

I don't feel sorry for anyone who puts the wellbeing of others firmly at the back of their mind just so they can enjoy themselves.

Usually self employed and owners of small companies are working all hours God sends, thus might not have time for pleasures..  I suppose, they could have been the ones who had sufficient money in their back pockets to drive up to 500 miles to the seaside.- - thus introducing the virus into places that had escaped the scourge.

We've discovered many carriers don't know who they've been in contact with

If the police had been taking every partygoer's name, we would have future reference so that we could hit them where it hurt = their pockets.

I might not be so harsh if I had not been the victim of several cancelled medical appointments due to lockdowns over several months .

I am referring to employers who do not take action to make a secure, safe environment for their workers, not people who attend parties etc.
You would sack workers who deliberately endanger the lives of others. I just wondered about the employers.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 31 October 20 23:50 GMT (UK)
Mark - your reply about the spread via travel - in my opinion - hits the nail on the head.

I have long been of the opinion that once earlier restrictions were lifted & people were allowed to travel abroad - we would see an increase. 

Back in September I was told of a young woman who went to Spain for a week with 5 friends.  3 days after her return she tested positive for Covid but in that time how many others were potential victims?   All the people on her flight plus those she socialised with in the 3 days after her return?

Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Viktoria on Sunday 01 November 20 00:53 GMT (UK)
My daughter and  her husband have a motorcycle franchise .They are not selling as that involves a test ride ,bike sanitised etc,
They get so much aggro from customers who won’t stick to the rules.
For example ,the toilets ,everything in place for people to sanitise prior to using  the facilities ,wipers ,hand  sanitisers ,everything.And after their use.
Yet the number of people who won’t do that.Despite big notices .
One man refused to do it,saying sneeringly that he had a woman at home to do that for him !
Wow!
Did he get told off !
Daughter checks each time it us used ,and does
hourly sanitising anyway,but each customer ought to do it .
They are having bikes serviced as it could be dangerous if not done.
One went on Facebook and moaned about it but others said what a moron
to not appreciate  the high standard in place which was for  customers safety primarily .
The bikes go in, are sanitised prior to the extensive service ,then sanitised
again ready to hand over to the valeting Dept prior to a full valeting .
All at the cost to the franchise .They are paid only for the service time .
Normally a coffee machine is there for  customers to serve themselves but not now ,instant coffee in disposable paper cups which are incinerated .
Daughter makes it for customers ,so nothing but the cup is touched by them.
Masks all day, hand sanitising throughout the day etc etc .
Then one awkward person can be so stupid .
But my daughter is fierce,stands no messing , and  gets many plus reviews
for the stance she has taken .
So much is at stake ,it has to be like that for everyone .
Viktoria,


Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Guy Etchells on Sunday 01 November 20 07:30 GMT (UK)
We are Governed by imbeciles.

It does not take a PHD in Science or statistical Maths to work out that the way to limit this crisis is to have phased Total Lockdowns periodically.

No it takes a hell of a lot more than that which is why most countries in the world are struggling to cope.
The countries that have faired the best are the ones where the population respect the government and do as they have been told rather than flouting the rules.
The government cannot stop the course of the virus that depends on the actions of the general population.

Kids half term was a golden opportunity to add on a couple of more weeks.

Hopefully this four week period will be supported and the authorities come down hard on those that flout the rules.

If all goes well the rules at Christmas can be relaxed for a week or two and when the cases rise in the New Year (as they will) then another lockdown can be planned for.

Or better still extend the lockdown over Christmas (it is after all only another day of the week and not the day of Christ's birth).
That way the 'R' rate will be on a definable downward track 

Surely these cyclic lockdowns are the way forward until an effective vaccine is produced and our fellow citizens are inoculated.

No, short breaks are not the way forward but in reality an emergency brake. They do a huge amount of damage to business and the economy for little gain and only delay the rise in infection. It takes longer term hard lockdowns to have any real effect.
Just think, if a shop is forced to closed for two weeks, it cannot take delivery of goods ordered, that delivery has to be stored somewhere taking up space and costing extra money, that has a knock on effect on other goods being prevented on being delivered to the warehouse, etc. When the shops open again they don't have the goods to sell as they are not in stock and the delivery is delayed because of the backlog of goods to be delivered and the limits on driving time.

Mind you a Facebook friend of my Wife suffered an acute Asthma Attack and she was taken into her local A&E against her will only by the Ambulance service only to be placed in a four bay holding area where the other three were snorting and coughing, there were no effective screens between them and none were given facemasks to wear.  She videoed her experiences and is now terrified she could have been infected.

You say she went to hospital against her will, do you mean she was kidnapped by the ambulance crew, she could have refused, as my mother-in-law used to do. She must have consented, unless unconscious or other wise unable to speak.

The crowded hospitals is the basic reason why the lockdown was reluctantly announced, if people had observed the rules, instead of flaunting them, by things like gathering outside pubs when they closed early (to give just one example, though I am not just referring to covid rules) the hospitals would not be so busy.
It is time the population take responsibility for their own actions, it is not the government who is spreading the virus but potentially each and every one of us.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Sunday 01 November 20 07:52 GMT (UK)
I don't think the remedy is very easy at all, SARS-CoV-2 / Covid-19 seems to be a Law until itself.

No wonder in October a City had 9 million people tested in 5 days. Makes me wonder how a country has such huge facilities?

I bet all those people testing positive had to live by extremely strict instructions and be retested again, plus get assistance to receive food and help, because one trip to a food shop and it would be ... here we go again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-54504785

Viral Shedding (One case was 60 days)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7471550/
Says Covid-19 can be shed in numerous ways?

Mark
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 01 November 20 08:43 GMT (UK)
Some countries have done better than others: NZ and Australia (mostly!) for example.
Where I live, on the Isle of Man, we closed the borders; closed the airport and allowed freight only to arrive by sea.

Residents have been allowed to leave the island, but must self-isolate for 14 days on return.
Essential workers are also allowed, if they have permission from the Government, and must follow strict isolation rules.

Transgressers are arrested, and almost always given a short, sharp jail sentence - 4 weeks, or 6 weeks, or 8 weeks for the worst cases.
Those breaking rules have to be punished.

Result? No Covid - with just a few vases amongst those self-isolating.
No cases in the community.

It can be done! :)
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: groom on Sunday 01 November 20 08:57 GMT (UK)
I agree, KG, it can be done, but much easier on an island as small as the Isle of Man. There is no way that prisons could cope if everyone who broke the rules in England was jailed. Most of the other strategies that have worked there as well, wouldn't be possible on the mainland. Just be glad that you live where you do.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: mazi on Sunday 01 November 20 09:44 GMT (UK)
Round and round in circles we go, how about this, we have an experimental vaccine, it produces antibodies and, for the technically minded, killer T cells.

It is wandering round all the red tape and regulations.

Why not use it tomorrow, starting with over 80s and then the most vulnerable.

It may not work at all, but there is nothing to lose, if it is is only 50% successful it would solve the problem.

It has not killed anyone yet, nor caused serious side effects.

I repeat we have nothing to lose by it.

Mike
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: josey on Sunday 01 November 20 09:56 GMT (UK)
No wonder in October a City had 9 million people tested in 5 days. Makes me wonder how a country has such huge facilities?
Not huge facilities but a different approach 'pooled testing'. In China batches of 10 or 20 swabs were tested as one, if the batch came out positive the samples in that batch were tested individually. This approach was suggested in the UK some months ago but not taken up. Likely to be taken up soon by Germany and the US.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Rena on Sunday 01 November 20 11:02 GMT (UK)

I'm retired, but I would definitely be sacking any of my workers who by their deliberate actions endangered the lives of others


What would you do with the employers whose actions endanger the lives of others?

I don't feel sorry for anyone who puts the wellbeing of others firmly at the back of their mind just so they can enjoy themselves.

Usually self employed and owners of small companies are working all hours God sends, thus might not have time for pleasures..  I suppose, they could have been the ones who had sufficient money in their back pockets to drive up to 500 miles to the seaside.- - thus introducing the virus into places that had escaped the scourge.

We've discovered many carriers don't know who they've been in contact with

If the police had been taking every partygoer's name, we would have future reference so that we could hit them where it hurt = their pockets.

I might not be so harsh if I had not been the victim of several cancelled medical appointments due to lockdowns over several months .

I am referring to employers who do not take action to make a secure, safe environment for their workers, not people who attend parties etc.
You would sack workers who deliberately endanger the lives of others. I just wondered about the employers.

Within any industry, word gets around and I can invisage that if it came to light that  suppliers in an industry weren't playing by the book, then that supplier would find his order books getting very thin.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Viktoria on Sunday 01 November 20 11:50 GMT (UK)
We seem to be a Nation of two halves, those who respect the rules as much as is humanly possible and those who have no intention of respecting the rules.
How to get the second half to see sense is the huge problem .
It strikes me that  they have no inner resources ,can’t face being alone for even the shortest time .
But with all the gadgets they have and are so fond of using they are in many ways better equipped to cope with restrictions in their social lives than the other end of the spectrum.
Young people are natural gatherers ,need to be in groups etc ,that secret “clique “ that means no entry for parents .
But they think they are old enough for all sorts of things ,yet seem unable to
think about risk minimising , do they think they are invincible?
Sadly of course they are not .
In their defence  many adults are just as bad or worse because they ought to be wiser, and their attitude is that they don’t want to be inconvenienced .
Life must go on as normal for them.
We really need a big “ Wake Up “ call.
Watching the announcement yesterday, am I stupid or were the graphs etc
on screen always pertinent to what was being said?
On my modest TV half of the graphs were not on screen,I kept looking on the floor to see if they had fallen down!
I felt someone was trying to blind me with science.
A lot was said but not much substance to it.
Draconian measures are needed and anyone breaking the rules should be deemed an enemy of the people,I know that is a quote —— but that is exactly what they are ,putting others at risk through their selfish actions.
We have got to get tough, the soft approach has not worked.
All the money already poured into this has been wasted by lifting lockdown
far too soon , allowing universities to accept students, foreign holidays and selfish people who went in  the  first place rushing back to avoid the quarantine which started on a set date .
Did one day less mean those returning early were not infected.?
Pussy footing , and what a mess we are in because of it
Some people will always flout rules ,too hard and some won’t obey, too soft and not seen as really important .
What this says about us as a nation - because the rule breakers get more
publicity !
No one reports on all the little old ladies and gentlemen, obeying the rules exactly .Trying not to inconvenience their families ,seeing no one they love ,
just getting a phone call and for many not even emails.
Worrying about those in their family who have worked hard and been successful in business ventures and are now responsible for the livelihoods of their employees .
Thinking how this affects students and scholars ,our scientists and Doctors ,Nurses etc of the future.

It is a circle that gets ever wider ,so when will the selfish irresponsible ones
realise that whether they like it or not they are in it ,and they had better start
behaving as if they are ,or else!

It really is time to get tough ,very tough !
Literally - our lives depend on it .
Viktoria.








Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Romilly on Sunday 01 November 20 12:19 GMT (UK)
Victoria, - neither my husband or myself could read those graphs.

Not even with glasses on... They were too small, and completely indecipherable, - to us anyway!

Romilly.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Mike in Cumbria on Sunday 01 November 20 12:21 GMT (UK)
Although the reports of big house parties, pub crawls etc make good television, the data seems to show that the vast majority of the increase in cases comes from normal human behaviour - people going to work, visiting family, shopping, eating out etc. When these activities were restricted in lockdown v1, the cases dropped, only to rise again when the restrictions were lifted.
It's annoying to see people blatantly ignoring the rules, but the evidence suggests that that isn't the main problem.
There aren't any easy answers.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Sunday 01 November 20 12:30 GMT (UK)
Round and round in circles we go, how about this, we have an experimental vaccine, it produces antibodies and, for the technically minded, killer T cells.

It is wandering round all the red tape and regulations.


SARS-CoV-2 also goes for the ACE2 (Angiotensin-converting enzyme 2) Receptor, looking at Reports submitted to American Libraries.
 ----------
It seems our Human Immune System needs to make an appropriate response to the invader and apparently it is not in some cases.

Too many Cytokines (Cytokine Storm) leads to complications.
 ----------
Thank you Josey regarding mass testing.

Mark
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Guy Etchells on Sunday 01 November 20 12:31 GMT (UK)
Although the reports of big house parties, pub crawls etc make good television, the data seems to show that the vast majority of the increase in cases comes from normal human behaviour - people going to work, visiting family, shopping, eating out etc. When these activities were restricted in lockdown v1, the cases dropped, only to rise again when the restrictions were lifted.
It's annoying to see people blatantly ignoring the rules, but the evidence suggests that that isn't the main problem.
There aren't any easy answers.

I don't think the evidence is granular enough to show such trends
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 01 November 20 20:07 GMT (UK)
Mark - your reply about the spread via travel - in my opinion - hits the nail on the head.

I have long been of the opinion that once earlier restrictions were lifted & people were allowed to travel abroad - we would see an increase. 

Back in September I was told of a young woman who went to Spain for a week with 5 friends.  3 days after her return she tested positive for Covid but in that time how many others were potential victims?   All the people on her flight plus those she socialised with in the 3 days after her return?

A recent study, not yet peer-reviewed, has found that 80% of cases in Scotland and Wales and 50%   in England in mid-September were variant 20A.EU1. It's been traced to agricultural workers in Spain  who spread it to the general population in Spain in June and July. One of the lead scientists who conducted the study was interviewed on "Today", BBC Radio 4 this week. There are reports in various media. 
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Viktoria on Sunday 01 November 20 20:17 GMT (UK)
Interesting programme today, scientists disputed the whole approach to the virus, treatment,testing and spread.
Can’t remember all of it ,but was interesting ,I was nodding in agreement at some points.
Viktoria.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 01 November 20 21:23 GMT (UK)
I am referring to employers who do not take action to make a secure, safe environment for their workers, not people who attend parties etc.
You would sack workers who deliberately endanger the lives of others. I just wondered about the employers.

How about this?
"summary closure powers" for firms "not deemed to be Covid-safe"
Part of evidence of Rt. Hon. Andy Burnham, Mayor, Greater Manchester to House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee, 27th Oct. 2020. Wants local enforcement powers to temporarily close venues for failing to adhere to Covid-19 rules. Has been asking for this for some time, e.g. reported in Manchester Evening News 16th Sept. "Police and councils should be given ability to move quickly to shut down businesses that ignore restrictions aimed at keeping staff and customers safe." Recommended "intelligence-led closures".
The Lords committee took evidence from mayors of Greater Manchester and Liverpool and business representatives about Covid.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Rena on Sunday 01 November 20 21:31 GMT (UK)
Mark - your reply about the spread via travel - in my opinion - hits the nail on the head.

I have long been of the opinion that once earlier restrictions were lifted & people were allowed to travel abroad - we would see an increase. 

Back in September I was told of a young woman who went to Spain for a week with 5 friends.  3 days after her return she tested positive for Covid but in that time how many others were potential victims?   All the people on her flight plus those she socialised with in the 3 days after her return?

A recent study, not yet peer-reviewed, has found that 80% of cases in Scotland and Wales and 50%   in England in mid-September were variant 20A.EU1. It's been traced to agricultural workers in Spain  who spread it to the general population in Spain in June and July. One of the lead scientists who conducted the study was interviewed on "Today", BBC Radio 4 this week. There are reports in various media.

It's several, several weeks since I heard that each country seemed to have its own mutant "brand" of Covid-19, so I was interested to see it mentioned again.

I see the UK has started training sniffer dogs to single out people with the virus, although it's a bit late in the day now.

As for virus tests, I would have thought that using a temperature guage on people walking in the streets and/or entering sujpermarkets, etc., which we saw on TV being used in China and Korea would have helped enormously in keeping the virus in check in this country too.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Sunday 01 November 20 21:58 GMT (UK)
Maiden Stone you mention something in the newspaper.

However, under the UK Public Health (Control of Diseases) Act 1984, Chapter 22, Section 45I [45 Letter i] (5).

45I Power to order health measures in relation to premises, our Local Authority could go before a Magistrate and request an Order to shut a place down.

(5)“ Related person ” means—

(a)a person who has or may have infected or contaminated the premises,

(b)a person who has or may have infected or contaminated a person who or thing which is or has been on the premises,

(c)a person whom the premises have or may have infected or contaminated, or

(d)a person who has or may have been infected or contaminated by a person who or thing which is or has been on the premises.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22
 ----------
Sequencing by the Quadram Institute in England and elsewhere, means its spread is traceable.
 ----------
The Pie Chart here shows the Strains (here they are known as single and dual letters L; G; GH; GR; S; V):-
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200925/D614G-mutation-now-the-dominant-variant-in-the-global-COVID-19-pandemic.aspx

SARS coronavirus 2 / SARS-CoV-2 (D614G Preprint)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7310631/
 ---------
The Pie Chart suggests Europe has mixed strains now, but likely each Strain began somewhere as Viktoria suggests.

Mark
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 01 November 20 22:17 GMT (UK)

Transgressers are arrested, and almost always given a short, sharp jail sentence - 4 weeks, or 6 weeks, or 8 weeks for the worst cases.
Those breaking rules have to be punished.

It can done.

Wouldn't work in England. Prisons bulging. Courts have backlogs of cases which might take more than a year to get through. Some remand prisoners are potentially spending longer in custody than the typical prison sentence they would get if convicted. Young people (under 18) on remand spending up to 23 hours in solitary confinement. On the plus side, only a couple of dozen prisoners have died of Covid-19 and not the thousands of deaths which had been feared at the outset.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Sunday 01 November 20 23:13 GMT (UK)
I am referring to employers who do not take action to make a secure, safe environment for their workers, not people who attend parties etc.
You would sack workers who deliberately endanger the lives of others. I just wondered about the employers.

How about this?
"summary closure powers" for firms "not deemed to be Covid-safe"
Part of evidence of Rt. Hon. Andy Burnham, Mayor, Greater Manchester to House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee, 27th Oct. 2020. Wants local enforcement powers to temporarily close venues for failing to adhere to Covid-19 rules. Has been asking for this for some time, e.g. reported in Manchester Evening News 16th Sept. "Police and councils should be given ability to move quickly to shut down businesses that ignore restrictions aimed at keeping staff and customers safe." Recommended "intelligence-led closures".
The Lords committee took evidence from mayors of Greater Manchester and Liverpool and business representatives about Covid.

This one pre-dates September 2020
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/containing-and-managing-local-coronavirus-covid-19-outbreaks/covid-19-contain-framework-a-guide-for-local-decision-makers

"UTLAs will have powers to close individual premises, public outdoor places and prevent specific events. This means that UTLAs will no longer have to make representations to a magistrate in order to close a premises." ...
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Rena on Sunday 01 November 20 23:53 GMT (UK)
Maiden Stone you mention something in the newspaper.

However, under the UK Public Health (Control of Diseases) Act 1984, Chapter 22, Section 45I [45 Letter i] (5).

45I Power to order health measures in relation to premises, our Local Authority could go before a Magistrate and request an Order to shut a place down.

(5)“ Related person ” means—

(a)a person who has or may have infected or contaminated the premises,

(b)a person who has or may have infected or contaminated a person who or thing which is or has been on the premises,

(c)a person whom the premises have or may have infected or contaminated, or

(d)a person who has or may have been infected or contaminated by a person who or thing which is or has been on the premises.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22
 ----------
Sequencing by the Quadram Institute in England and elsewhere, means its spread is traceable.
 ----------
The Pie Chart here shows the Strains (here they are known as single and dual letters L; G; GH; GR; S; V):-
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200925/D614G-mutation-now-the-dominant-variant-in-the-global-COVID-19-pandemic.aspx

SARS coronavirus 2 / SARS-CoV-2 (D614G Preprint)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7310631/
 ---------
The Pie Chart suggests Europe has mixed strains now, but likely each Strain began somewhere as Viktoria suggests.

Mark

Thanks for taking the trouble to find this Mark, I knew something of the sort was available to prosecute.

the current situation where councillors, etc., are wringing their hands reminds me of a few decades ago when councillors were adamant they didn't have powers to close down cruel dog breeding farms.  Needless to say, they did but hadn't known it.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 02 November 20 19:05 GMT (UK)
Mark, thanks for replies 57 & 59.
 I've read more laws and guidelines in the past 8 months than at any time since I left college.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: BushInn1746 on Tuesday 03 November 20 23:06 GMT (UK)
Mark, thanks for replies 57 & 59.
 I've read more laws and guidelines in the past 8 months than at any time since I left college.

Maiden Stone, if interested there are various and also some Scottish Notices & Laws here ...
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/coronavirus-notices/notice
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/coronavirus
 ----------
Noticed them while I was looking for historic surname notices relating to Yorkshire.

Good site to check historic family names, especially if a formal notice e.g. Probate (requiring a Notice) or similar was published, the Gazette began in 1665.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

A Probate Notice, also a future Burial Notice relating to my family was placed by the Home Office (HO), because the HO had made an exception to allow the Burial, despite the Cemetery already being formally closed.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Rena on Tuesday 03 November 20 23:56 GMT (UK)

Transgressers are arrested, and almost always given a short, sharp jail sentence - 4 weeks, or 6 weeks, or 8 weeks for the worst cases.
Those breaking rules have to be punished.

It can done.

Wouldn't work in England. Prisons bulging. Courts have backlogs of cases which might take more than a year to get through. Some remand prisoners are potentially spending longer in custody than the typical prison sentence they would get if convicted. Young people (under 18) on remand spending up to 23 hours in solitary confinement. On the plus side, only a couple of dozen prisoners have died of Covid-19 and not the thousands of deaths which had been feared at the outset.

It's no wonder that courts are under pressure because 157 courts were closed down in 2010, including our very busy local court building.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Viktoria on Wednesday 04 November 20 00:00 GMT (UK)
Yes and 20,000 Police  officers fewer .
Chickens and homecomings  spring  to mind!
Viktoria.
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Roobarb on Wednesday 04 November 20 00:05 GMT (UK)
The magistrates court in my nearest large town is using some areas of a nearby hotel in addition to the court building so they can catch up with the cases that were backlogged during the first lockdown. They're using Jury's Inn. I kid you not!  :D
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 04 November 20 16:36 GMT (UK)

Maiden Stone, if interested there are various and also some Scottish Notices & Laws here ...
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/coronavirus-notices/notice
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/coronavirus
 ----------
Noticed them while I was looking for historic surname notices relating to Yorkshire.

Good site to check historic family names, especially if a formal notice e.g. Probate (requiring a Notice) or similar was published, the Gazette began in 1665.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

Thanks. A handy list. I look at Gov.uk and Scotgov.uk and public health websites but there's so much on them, constantly updated.
A lot of entries in the Gazette for one ancestral line, many of whom owned businesses which were liquidated. I was able to trace lives and careers of 4 elder brothers of a 3xGGF that way.     
Title: Re: England Briefing On TV at 5pm and Commons Statement this Evening
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 04 November 20 16:58 GMT (UK)
It's no wonder that courts are under pressure because 157 courts were closed down in 2010, including our very busy local court building.

"Nightingale courts" include a theatre and a cinema.