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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Cinirel on Thursday 22 October 20 13:36 BST (UK)
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Hi All
Am looking for any information on Frederick Wilcock.
All that I know is that he married Phyllis Ivy Hayward July 1940 in Gosport...
I don't have any birth or death dates (although I have heard from family that he may od died in 1984 / 5 ??? although I have not been able to verify this
Any help with this brickwall would be greatly appreciated.
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The marriage certificate should give information on his father
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Have you looked for either of them on the 1939 register? If they were in Hampshire at that time it may give some idea of birthyears etc
EDIT
Possible child born 1946 but not in Hampshire. www.freebmd.org.uk
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Looking at a Tree she remarried 1948 so either Fred had died? (war years) or they divorced.
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Hi Carole.
Just been looking. They were not in Hampshire in 1939
Hi Cinirel
Do you have any more info on what region they came from.
Did find a marriage in London for a Phyllis I Willcock in 1948 & a Fred Willcock died in the War, 1944 but could not find any deaths in UK that match.
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Given the info posted by Trish the 1939 entry I found for Phyllis Ivy Hayward appears to be the right one
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1944 Death
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2110124/FRED%20WILLCOCK/
1948 Marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVD7-Z5NB
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I think Ivy had a 3rd marriage in Herts 1974 to James E Smith
Death Phyllis Ivy Smith b 8.6.1922 Died 1989 Northants
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If Phyllis was a widow when she remarried in 1948 that would clinch the WW2 death.
Cinirel - you mention you think Frederick died in the 1980’s - do you have any other info to support that? Does one of the family members remember him being around after WW2 ended?
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The 1944 death
Fred Willcock
Rank Lance-Bombardier
Regiment Royal Artillery
Birth place London N
Residence Oldham
Death 18 November 1944
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Possible birth for Fred, 1912, Oldham
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2FP6-C9H
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Cinirel seems to think he died more recently than 1944 :-\. Is that 1946 birth his child.
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Thanks all for your help.
I have ordered the birth cert so hopefully that will shed further light on him.
For the record Frederick and Phyllis had a son born in 1940 Frank Keith who took Phyllis's 2nd husbands surname (Thornton)
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Is that 1940 child deceased, if not you will need to remove their name from your post
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1944 Death
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2110124/FRED%20WILLCOCK/
1948 Marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVD7-Z5NB
Fred Willcock
Given Initials: F
Rank: Lance Bombardier
Death Date: 18 Nov 1944
Number: 1601156
Birth Place: London N
Residence: Oldham
Branch at Enlistment: Royal Artillery
Theatre of War: Western Europe Campaign, 1944/45
Regiment at Death: Royal Artillery
details from UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945 - no image to view on Anc*y
EDIT to add
apologies to Rosie99 I had missed you posted this info. ::)
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Possible birth for Fred, 1912, Oldham
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2FP6-C9H
Do you think this baptism is a possibility for the 1912 birth entry from Kloumann?
from Lancashire OPC
12 Sep 1912 Workhouse, Oldham, Lancashire
Fred Wilcock illegitimate son of Mary Ann Wilcock
added - from what parish parent admitted, Oldham DS
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Thanks all for your help.
I have ordered the birth cert so hopefully that will shed further light on him.
For the record Frederick and Phyllis had a son born in July 1940
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1944 Death
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2110124/FRED%20WILLCOCK/
A will for that one (Soldiers)
WILCOCK FRED
Regimental number 1601156
Date of death 18 November 1944
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/
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details from UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945 - no image to view on Anc*y
I can see indexed on the rival site (with image!)
Royal Artillery Other Ranks: Casualty Cards 1939-1947
Fred Willcock
Death year 1944
Reg no 1601156
Amended :) (I copy pasted wrong chap!)
Fred is also in Royal Artillery Attestations 1883-1942, but probably of very much help (may say when enlisted though?)
The will still costs only £1.50
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Looking at a Tree she remarried 1948 so either Fred had died? (war years) or they divorced.
March 1948 Westminster 5c 985
Thornton, Patrick J. - spouse Wilcock or Hayward
Hayward, Phyllis I. - spouse Thornton
Wilcock, Phyllis I - spouse Thornton
GRO doesn't normally index a widowed bride under two (or more!) names. Suggests a divorce perhaps? :-\
1947 electoral register has (as spelt)
Phyliss I. Wilcock at 29 Denbigh Street, Westminster (among others)
Not listed there 46 or 48.
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Patrick J Thornton was at 29 Denbigh Place, Westminster, in 1947 :)
Same page as Phyl at 29 Denbigh Street
1948 register has
11 Pitfield House, Highbury New Park, Islington
Patrick J. Thornton
Phyllis I. W. Thornton
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Hi All
Once again thanks for all your help.
I may have found a possible divorce in 1942 between Frederick and Phyllis but have been unable to verify this as yet
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Let us know how you get on!
Is that 1946 birth his child.
The Camberwell birth may be the most likely possibility for this death next quarter? :-\
June 1946 Westminster 1a 364
Wilcock, John
age 0
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Hi Thanks for your reply...
Unless he had a child with another person (in 1946) then it won't be the same Frederick. Although I need to get verifictaion, I beleive Frederick and Phyllis divorced in 1942
Let us know how you get on!
Is that 1946 birth his child.
The Camberwell birth may be the most likely possibility for this death next quarter? :-\
June 1946 Westminster 1a 364
Wilcock, John
age 0
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For the record Frederick and Phyllis had a son born in 1940 F K
who took Phyllis's 2nd husbands surname (Thornton)
For info.
1965 Electoral Register
Address 57 Ilkley Road
Patrick J & Phyllis I Thornton and with them is F K Thornton
(his birth F K Wilcock Sep 1941 Tadcaster mmn Hayward)
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If that 1946 birth is connected then it will almost certainly be Phyllis who was the mother, father possibly unknown. But dangerous to predict these things!
To identify Frederick Wilcock the 1940 Gosport marriage cert may be needed :(
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Hi All
An update for you.
Today I recieved the marriage cert between Frederick and Phyllis... Frederick's father was Jonathon Wilcock.
Despite searching I have been unable to find anything on Jonathon - will keep searching.
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Still think he was the Fred born 1912 in Oldham with no MMN.
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Hi
We could do with a bit more info! Can you post the age of Frederick, occupation (was he in the forces?), occupation of Jonathan.
Anything else if it might be helpful.
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This is my dilema... It's about all the inof I have.
On Fredericks marriage certif, his fathers (Jonathon) occupation is left blank.
Fredericks age in 1940 was 23 and it just says 'Soldier' as his occupation.
And thats all I have
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An update for you.
Today I recieved the marriage cert between Frederick and Phyllis... Frederick's father was Jonathon Wilcock.
Despite searching I have been unable to find anything on Jonathon - will keep searching.
Thanks for the update - have you looked into the names of the witnesses? Were they related?
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Thanks for the update - have you looked into the names of the witnesses? Were they related?
[/quote]
The witnesses are not related to either Frederick or Phyllis :-X
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Fredericks age in 1940 was 23 and it just says 'Soldier' as his occupation.
May have a possibility, if that age is right.
Best matching birth reg is
March 1917 Chorlton 8c 1266
Wilcock, Frederick
mother Bailey
There's a possible sibling registered in Chorlton in the June quarter 1914, John Thomas Wilcock, mother Bailey.
Going back, using the new GRO birth index, there is another one
WILCOCK, JANE
Mother's Maiden Surname: BAILEY
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 813
So we can look for her in the 1911 census free index
In South Manchester, Chorlton upon Medlock
Jane Wilcock, daughter, apparently of Jonathan and Fanny
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBG-J5V
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Is there a marriage?
Possible death? :-\
June 1943 Blackpool 8e 705
Wilcock, Jonathan
age 78
Probate in 1943, Jonathan Wilcock of 5 Squires Gate Lane Blackpool, executor is Annie Wilcock, widow
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=wilcock&yearOfDeath=1943&page=2#calendar
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Fredericks age in 1940 was 23 and it just says 'Soldier' as his occupation.
May have a possibility, if that age is right.
Best matching birth reg is
March 1917 Chorlton 8c 1266
Wilcock, Frederick mother Bailey
There's a possible sibling registered in Chorlton in the June quarter 1914, John Thomas Wilcock, mother Bailey.
Going back, using the new GRO birth index, there is another one
WILCOCK, JANE
Mother's Maiden Surname: BAILEY
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 813
So we can look for her in the 1911 census free index
In South Manchester, Chorlton upon Medlock
Jane Wilcock, daughter, apparently of Jonathan and Fanny
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBG-J5V
Jonathan married previously here he is with dau Alice on 1901 census, wife is Elizabeth
Piece: 3694 Folio: 88 Page Number: 10
62 Rusholme Rd
Jonathan Wilcock 36 Blackburn , Paint Decorator House
Elizabeth Wilcock 40 Northumberland Restaurant Proprietors Coffee
Sarah J ECCLESTON dau 21
Mary C Eccleston dau 18
Robert H Eccleston son 14
Alice Wilcock dau 7 Blackpool
Charles Files boarder 43
Alice Atchin serv 34
Sarah Atchin 3
and here's his marriage to Elizabeth
Jonathan WILCOCK age 36, painter, 2 Stand Street
Father Jonathan, Farmer
Elizabeth ECCLESTON 39, widow, 2 Strand Street
father Edward PRINGLE, Inspector of Police
married on 19 Sep 1900 at St Andrew Ancoats Lancashire
Witnesses Frederick Townsend & Mary Catherine Eccleston
1891
Piece: 3401 Folio: 143 page 44
Jonathan Wilcock 63 Hide dealer
Margaret Wilcock 57
Jonathan Wilcock 26 Blackburn Lancashire cab proprietor
1881 Piece: 4189 Folio: 8 Page 9
Jonathan age 16 Blackburn with his parents occ painter
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Going back, using the new GRO birth index, there is another one
WILCOCK, JANE
Mother's Maiden Surname: BAILEY
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 813
So we can look for her in the 1911 census free index
In South Manchester, Chorlton upon Medlock
Jane Wilcock, daughter, apparently of Jonathan and Fanny
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBG-J5V
Jane Wilcock Baptism 21 Dec 1910 Manchester, St Paul, Brunswick Street, Lancashire
Parish as it Appears: Chorlton on Medlock, St Paul
Father: Jonathan, window cleaner Mother: Fanny , 61 Market Street
Minnie Wilcock Birth 22 Jan 1897
Baptism 4 Apr 1897 Ancoats, St Andrew, Lancashire
Father: Jonathan Wilcock, restaurant keeper Mother:Elizabeth abode 150 London Road
Minnie WILCOCK mmm PRINGLE
1897 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 275
Private Baptism
Margaret Wilcock Birth 19 Jan 1900
Baptism 26 Jan 1900 Hulme, Holy Trinity, Lancashire
Father: Jonathan , window cleaner Mother: Elizabeth, abode 32 Silk St
Margaret WILCOCK mmn PRINGLE
1900 M Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 986
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Jane Wilcock Baptism 21 Dec 1910 Manchester, St Paul, Brunswick Street, Lancashire
Parish as it Appears: Chorlton on Medlock, St Paul
Father: Jonathan, window cleaner Mother: Fanny , 61 Market Street
Well done, Ladyhawk.
There's a baptism of Frederick at the same church on FamilySearch
17th January 1917
Frederick
parents Jonathan + Fanny Wilcock
abode 43 Percival St.
father a Painter
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C39L-CS9L-M
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Possible death? :-\
June 1943 Blackpool 8e 705
Wilcock, Jonathan
age 78
Probate in 1943, Jonathan Wilcock of 5 Squires Gate Lane Blackpool, executor is Annie Wilcock, widow
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=wilcock&yearOfDeath=1943&page=2#calendar
Jonathan WILCOCK age 53 , widower, decorator, 43 Percival St
Father Jonathan, Farmer Dec’d
married Annie ATKINSON 41 , spinster, father John, Policeman
on 26th Feb 1919 at St Paul Chorlton on Metlock
Edit to add - Is this Annie's death? :-\
Annie Wilcock Age: 43
Dec 1920 Blackburn Lancashire Volume: 8e Page: 450[/s]
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What happened to Fanny? :-\
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Image of that 1919 marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6BY9-SBS?i=167
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What happened to Fanny? :-\
I was wondering the same ???
Jonathan married Elizabeth ECCLESTON 1900 and Annie ATKINSON 1919
Only married 1 year and 1 child (1911) - I can’t find a marriage to Fanny BAILEY c1910 ???
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Frederick didn't give an occupation for father Jonathan on the marriage. Perhaps his parents split up?
Jonathan Wilcock still at 43 Percival Street in 1929 (Kelly's Directory of Manchester, Salford and Suburbs)
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for info.
Alice WILCOX born c1894 Blackburn from 1901 & 1911 census
This looks to be her birth entry
Alice ECCLESTON mmn PRINGLE
1894 S Quarter in FYLDE Volume 08E Page 670
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Fredericks age in 1940 was 23 and it just says 'Soldier' as his occupation.
May have a possibility, if that age is right.
Best matching birth reg is
March 1917 Chorlton 8c 1266
Wilcock, Frederick
mother Bailey
There's a possible sibling registered in Chorlton in the June quarter 1914, John Thomas Wilcock, mother Bailey.
Going back, using the new GRO birth index, there is another one
WILCOCK, JANE
Mother's Maiden Surname: BAILEY
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 813
So we can look for her in the 1911 census free index
In South Manchester, Chorlton upon Medlock
Jane Wilcock, daughter, apparently of Jonathan and Fanny
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBG-J5V
From the above link Fanny born c 1878 Swindon Wiltshire
Could this be Fanny Bailey with her parents on 1881 census?
Piece: 2015 Folio: 117 Page Number: 34
Edward Bailey 27, bricklayer
Mary A. Bailey 26
Fanny Bailey 3 Swindon, Wiltshire
Elizabeth A. Bailey 1
Fanny BAILEY mmn GILES
1878 M Quarter in OF HIGHWORTH Volume 05A Page 18
Elizabeth Ann BAILEY mmn GILES
1879 S Quarter in HIGHWORTH Volume 05A Page 7
Fanny Bailey born 13 Dec 1877
Baptism 3 Jul 1878 Stratton St Margaret, Wiltshire
Father: Edwin, bricklayer Mother: Annie, abode Gorse Hill
Elizabeth Anna Bailey
Baptism 9 Sep 1881 Swindon, St Paul,
Father: Edward, bricklayer Mother: Mary Anna
also bpt same parents
Edward Bailey 9 Sep 1881 Swindon, St Paul
Fred Bailey 11 Jul 1884 Swindon, St Paul
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Yes, I was just looking at her. She seems to be the likely one.
Date of birth given as 13 Dec 1877
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Yes, I was just looking at her. She seems to be the likely one.
So far only found this Fanny Bailey age 14 born England scholar & orphan in London
1891 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q7HL-K2M
This could be her brother Fred Bailey in Chorlton Upon Medlock, Manchester 1901 & 1911
1901 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X92Z-Y4N
1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBG-FGP
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Good find!
Also in Chorlton in 1901 is a Fanny Else, 23, born Wilts Swindon.
Piece 3698 folio 65 page 34
Married to William H Else, 23, Shop Assistant
Son William A Else, 8 months, born Manchester
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X92Z-5PG
Birth
ELSE, WILLIAM ARTHUR
Mother's Maiden Surname: BAILEY
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 975
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What are your thoughts could Fanny Bailey have married using her mother's maiden name ???
I haven't found this Fanny on any other censuses other than 1901
and is this her daughter from the 1911 census
Mabel ELSE mmn BAILEY
1905 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 920
William Herbert ELSE age Age: 22, father Frederick
Marriage 21 May 1899 Hulme, St Michael, Manchester
Spouse: Fanny GILES 21 father’s name left blank
1901 Piece: 3698 Folio: 65 Page Number: 34
William H ELSE 23
Fanny 23 Swindon Wiltshire
William A 8/12
William Arthur ELSE mmn BAILEY
1900 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 975
William Arthur ELSE age 19
Birth Place: Hulme, Lancashire
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 4783
Regiment Name: 3 - 8 St Battalion M - G Regiment
Form Title: Territorial Force Attestation
Number of Images: 8
Fanny ELSEMother
Fanny is his next of kin address 43 Percival St C on M
Fanny ELSE died age 39
Sep 1917 Manchester Volume: 8d Page: 185
Burial 1917 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/150824740/fanny-else
There is a birth entry for a Fanny Giles but she has a mmn
GILES, FANNY mmn PINNEGAR
1878 J Quarter in CRICKLADE Volume 05A Page 45
snap posting whilst red writing
ADDED
Mabel ELSE
Baptism 26 Apr 1905 Hulme, St John the Baptist, Lancashire
Father: William Herbert Else, widow cleaner Mother: Fanny , abode 1 South St
Joseph Frederick ELSE Birth 8 Sep 1902
Baptism 19 Nov 1902 Hulme, St John the Baptist, Lancashire
Father: William Herbert Else, porter Mother: Fanny
Joseph Frederick ELSE mmn BAILEY
1902 D Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 872
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We agree about Fanny being Else :)
Not sure why she married as Giles, as her parents were married before she was born? Though she seems to have done so!
So Jonathan and Fanny didn't marry because Fanny was already married. Fanny dies soon after Frederick was born. Then Jonathan marries Annie.
All makes sense!
Could be a good idea to get Jonathan's will as well.
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This appears to be the death of Fanny's husband
William H Else Age: 58
Jun 1935 South Manchester Volume: 8d Page: 73
added his burial https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/164494142/william-herbert-else
Edit to add
on this record asks whether married
reply Yes in brackets (wife deserted husband)
William Herbert Else
Enlistment Age: 38
Document Year: 1915
Residence Place: 114 Grosvenor Street, Manchester
Regimental Number: 280634
Number of Images: 13
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Family Members:
Frederick Else Father
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You have put it all together brilliantly, Ladyhawk :)
Perhaps one mystery is left, what happened to Frederick!
John
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On Fredericks marriage certif, his fathers (Jonathon) occupation is left blank.
Fredericks age in 1940 was 23 and it just says 'Soldier' as his occupation.
You have put it all together brilliantly, Ladyhawk :)
Perhaps one mystery is left, what happened to Frederick!
Thank you :)
It's a shame there was no occupation for Frederick's father Jonathan on his marriage cert. so we could be sure it's him :-\
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Hi
His age is right, and there aren't too many Jonathan's about. This one took some digging out, but I do think we can be extremely hopeful.
John
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It all makes perfect sense.
Thank you so much, everyone, for all of your hard and invaluable work ;)
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Fredericks age in 1940 was 23 and it just says 'Soldier' as his occupation.
May have a possibility, if that age is right.
Best matching birth reg is
March 1917 Chorlton 8c 1266
Wilcock, Frederick mother Bailey
There's a possible sibling registered in Chorlton in the
June quarter 1914, John Thomas Wilcock, mother Bailey
Possible death? :-\
June 1943 Blackpool 8e 705
Wilcock, Jonathan
age 78
Probate in 1943, Jonathan Wilcock of 5 Squires Gate Lane Blackpool,
executor is Annie Wilcock, widow
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=wilcock&yearOfDeath=1943&page=2#calendar
Same address - is this Jonathan's daughter-in-law & son
Nelly Wilcock of 5 Squire Gate Lane Blackpool (wife of John Thomas Wilcock)
died 18 August 1938 King George V Hospital Valetta Malta
Administration 22 Apr to said JTW telegraphist R.N.
marriage
John T WILCOCK
Sep 1935 Fylde Lancashire
Spouse: Nelly WOOD
Volume Number: 8a Page Number: 2061
Edit
Mrs Nellie Wilcock Age: 23, housewife
Departure 21 Nov 1936
Port of Departure: Southampton
Destination Port: Malta
Ship Name: Largs Bay
Last address in UK 2 Welch Road Gosport Hants