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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: WythenshaweWench on Thursday 22 October 20 14:07 BST (UK)
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Hi
I’m trying to establish a few things about an ancestor who was a Private in the army in 1911. I’ve found him on the 1911 census (John Scaife, but the search on Ancestry has him listed as John ScOife)…
I didn’t even know he was in the army until I found this. I’d previously found him in the Merchant Navy in 1919, so I know he didn’t die in WW1. There can’t have been that many John Scaifes, born in Tipperary in 1891, so I’m 90% sure it’s him, but want to try and find out more and confirm it IS him if I can…
This census states ‘Enumeration Book for Military Establishments, York Castle, (Military Prison), Tower Street, York’
My lad is at line 24 of the attached - John Scaife / Private / Age 20 / Single / Depot Manchester Dept (?) / Tipperary.
But he and those listed from lines 12 - 29 are all listed as “Soldiers under Sentence”
Am I right in thinking that they were all in military prison? (before I saw this bit, I thought he might just have been stationed there).
Does anyone have any ideas about this? Is it possible I can find out when he was first there, and when he was released? Or even WHY he was there? I have so many questions!
Many thanks,
Jayne x
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All those men bracketed together were prisoners in the military prison, soldiers under sentence being the army jargon. The men above were the 11 men of the Military Provost Staff Corps, the prison staff .
His regiment is given as the Depot Manchester Regiment which was at Ladysmith Barracks Ashton under Lyne but he may have belonged to one or other of the battalions of the Manchesters, the recording of the Depot as his unit being an administrative convenience.
There is Great War medal record for a 28880 Sergeant John Scaife of the King's (Liverpool) Regiment who had previously been 1398 in the Manchester Regiment. His date of birth is given as 1891 in a medical record. That record says he had 8 years of service in November 1915. The number suggests an enlistment in 1908 which would fit his age. There is no way of knowing whether this is the same man as the SUS in 1911.
A service record does not seem to have survived (you may not know that 60% of them were lost to bombing in WW2). The sergeant was in a Garrison Battalion in Egypt which tends to suggest a man who is not fit enough for front line soldiering so a Merchant Navy service in 1919- don't know.
Inconclusive so far I'm afraid.
MaxD
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Just to add a bit to Max's research:
The Silver War Badge roll records an enlistment date of 17 March 1911 and discharge on 30 April 1919.
The 1941-15 Star medal roll records disembarkation in Egypt on 10 October 1915.
Fold 3 has a pension ledger record which may be worth checking on a free trial. Residence Ancoats.
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Shaun's research points up the vagaries of military records.
The Egypt medical record is clear that 28880 Sgt J Scaife, age 24 in Nov 1915, 1st Garrison Bn KLR has 8 years of service and 6 weeks of service with the field force. The time in Egypt adds up with the SWB record and the known date of arrival of that battalion in Egypt. The enlistment date on the SWB record (unless he left the Manchesters and returned to the KLR before the war) doesn't.
Definitely agree the Fold 3 pension record should be looked at.
MaxD
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All those men bracketed together were prisoners in the military prison, soldiers under sentence being the army jargon. The men above were the 11 men of the Military Provost Staff Corps, the prison staff .
His regiment is given as the Depot Manchester Regiment which was at Ladysmith Barracks Ashton under Lyne but he may have belonged to one or other of the battalions of the Manchesters, the recording of the Depot as his unit being an administrative convenience.
There is Great War medal record for a 28880 Sergeant John Scaife of the King's (Liverpool) Regiment who had previously been 1398 in the Manchester Regiment. His date of birth is given as 1891 in a medical record. That record says he had 8 years of service in November 1915. The number suggests an enlistment in 1908 which would fit his age. There is no way of knowing whether this is the same man as the SUS in 1911.
A service record does not seem to have survived (you may not know that 60% of them were lost to bombing in WW2). The sergeant was in a Garrison Battalion in Egypt which tends to suggest a man who is not fit enough for front line soldiering so a Merchant Navy service in 1919- don't know.
Inconclusive so far I'm afraid.
MaxD
Hi Max
Many thanks for your comprehensive reply... It's just so interesting to find out more. The Ladysmith Barracks site is a 5 minute walk away from where I live. It's now full of houses, but the entrance and walls are still there. Nice to think that he may have walked the same streets as me.
I think I now need to do a little more research to try and find out which Regiment he was in, so I could maybe rule out the 28880 chap. I know there's a 'Museum of the Manchesters' here in Ashton, as well as a very good history library, so it might be worth a trip at some point.
Could you tell me if it's possible to find out where the medical record was viewed? Was it available on line?
I was aware of some records being destroyed in WW2, but as I'm quite new to this, I didn't know how to find out...
But many, many thanks for your input - I'm always astounded at just how much people are willing to help!
Jayne xxx
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Just to add a bit to Max's research:
The Silver War Badge roll records an enlistment date of 17 March 1911 and discharge on 30 April 1919.
The 1941-15 Star medal roll records disembarkation in Egypt on 10 October 1915.
Fold 3 has a pension ledger record which may be worth checking on a free trial. Residence Ancoats.
Hi Shaun
I'm going to sign up for the trail on Fold 3 shortly - the Ancoats residence is interesting as all my family on the Scaife side have lived there, so it's looking positive that this might indeed be him!
Thanks for your help - I really do appreciate it!
Jayne xxx
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Definitely agree the Fold 3 pension record should be looked at.
MaxD
Ooooh it's so confusing.
I can only find 2 John Scaifes on there.
The pension record for John Scaife (483744) states his year of birth as 1888, but I KNOW 'my John' was born in 1891. It also gives his Date of Discharge as 19.9.19, yet I have 'my John' as being discharged from a Merchant Navy ship in June 1919. So I don't think this one CAN be him.
There's another one from the York & Lancaster regiment, but he died in 1917
I don't think either is 'my' John
But why can't I find anything in there for the one born in Tipperary?
Am I not seeing the wood for the trees?
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Ooooh it's so confusing.
I can only find 2 John Scaifes on there.
You may be putting in too much information. Just search on Ancestry for surname Scaife with keyword 28880. You will get 4 hits, one of which is "UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923"
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Ooooh it's so confusing.
I can only find 2 John Scaifes on there.
You may be putting in too much information. Just search on Ancestry for surname Scaife with keyword 28880. You will get 4 hits, one of which is "UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923"
Thanks Shaun
I found that one. I'm still not sure it's him, but can now do some digging.
Can I ask where did you see the mention of the Ancoats Residence please?
**EDIT** Forgive me - I found the Ancoats one - I'm not sure why I didn't see it in the first place, doh!
Jayne x
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There's an awful lot of information on there - I SO wish it had his full DOB, so I could confirm it was him, but there's a chance it may be.
I just need to try and understand all the codes now! eeek...
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Frankly you don't need to understand the codes which are little more that the clerks record of various elements of the administration of his pension. This site (the originators of the saved cards) has guidance relating to the information such as it is :
http://www.greatwar.co.uk/research/military-records/ww1-pension-records-cards.htm (check the links under information on the cards).
The medical record is on Findmypast but gives apart from what I have extracted only that it was 19 General Hospital in Egypt and that he had an abcess on his neck that needed an 11 days stay.
Would you like to give a link to the Merchant Navy record you have?
Welcome to the maddening world of military service research!
MaxD
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There's an awful lot of information on there - I SO wish it had his full DOB, so I could confirm it was him, but there's a chance it may be.
I just need to try and understand all the codes now! eeek...
Hi Max
Thanks for that, I'll check out that link.
I would agree that it IS maddening, but oh the joy when you find something that's RIGHT :-)
I found his Merchant Navy records on Find My Past - here's the link: (If it doesn't work, just search for John Scaife with the birthdate of 1891).
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FMSEA%2FBT350%2F22%2F84%2F228424&parentid=TNA%2FBT350%2F2130928614%2F1
I'll see if I can find that medical record you mentioned too.
Again, many thanks for your help.
Jayne x
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The medical record is the third on this page:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=101&firstname=john&firstname_variants=true&lastname=scaife&soldiernumber=28880&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great+britain
You said you had a record of discharge from a MN ship in Jun 1919 but the CR10 only has one date 28 July 1919 (I don't know that that date represents- others may do) - ???
MaxD
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The medical record is the third on this page:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?sourcecategory=armed+forces+%26+conflict&sid=101&firstname=john&firstname_variants=true&lastname=scaife&soldiernumber=28880&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great+britain
You said you had a record of discharge from a MN ship in Jun 1919 but the CR10 only has one date 28 July 1919 (I don't know that that date represents- others may do) - ???
MaxD
Thanks Max
Thats really interesting. I DO wish I could find out the actual DOB so I can see if it's definitely him! (or have I said that before? It's always at the front of my mind, lol)
Re the discharge - I think someone told me that the date was a discharge from that numbered ship, but maybe I've not remembered properly. And apologies - I'd written June, when I should have written July, doh. ;D
I know that 140566 relates to the ship Manchester Spinner (formerly the Grampian Range - see link - https://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnum?officialnumber=140566&submit=search), and that he was on it, and I was sure that date was his discharge...
Yet more madness to try and fathom out!
Jayne x
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Not really my area but my understanding is that the date against the ship number on a CR 10 is the joining date.
I'll ask Hmac who knows about these things to advise.
(Doesn't help with the military record but will clarify that part at least).
MaxD
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The date shown on his MN CR10 card is the date of engagement - the date he joined in this case ss GRAMPIAN RANGE.
Regards
Hugh
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The date shown on his MN CR10 card is the date of engagement - the date he joined in this case ss GRAMPIAN RANGE.
Regards
Hugh
Hi Hugh
Many thanks for this. I've obviously had it the wrong way round :-[ But at least it makes some of what I'm looking at concrete. I just now need to put together a timeline to see whether he's listed in two places at once (and therefore one isn't him!)
Thanks
Jayne x