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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: maggbill on Saturday 24 October 20 02:36 BST (UK)
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Hope this discussion is acceptable. Researching our family tree can be a joy to many people, but there are also those who take the total polar opposite approach to it. I have often wondered at the lack of interest, but have come to the conclusion that sometimes there can be an element of Denial of our past, even of our "Heritage Group". Not sure if that is the correct phrase. Our background may be very mixed, on the other hand - may have strong influences which in these modern times of "civilisation" are seen to be "different". I will not use some of the hurtful terms which used to be given - but you will know what I mean. "Illiterate Irish migrants", - "Travellers and Gypsies", "Aboriginals", "Coloured refugees", "Asians"..... These are all ethnic groups which we can be totally proud to belong to... but when to the current generation, their lifestyles, past or present, are seen to be just too "different" to our fast paced, materialistic, "civilised" world.. well, I think that some people just deny their connection and don't even want to know about it. Looking back at what was acceptable and what happened years ago, may amaze us - but I think if those ancestors could look forward and see what is acceptable to us now, they too would be truly amazed. Can we look at their lives and accept, without judging according our standards? Can we realise that sometimes - even with warts and all, they still have plenty to teach us?
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Hope this discussion is acceptable, and that I am not "opening up a can of worms"..
Researching our family tree can be a joy to many people, but there are also those who take the total polar opposite approach to it. I have often wondered at the lack of interest, but have come to the conclusion that maybe sometimes there can be an element of Denial of our past, even of our "Heritage Group". Not sure if that is the correct phrase. Our background may be very mixed, on the other hand - may have specific strong influences which in these modern times of "civilisation" are seen to be "different". I will not use some of the hurtful terms which used to be given - but you will know what I mean. " Irish migrants", - "Travellers and Gypsies", "Aboriginals", "Coloured refugees", "Asians"..... These are all ethnic groups which we can be totally proud to belong to... but when to the current generation, their lifestyles, past or present, are seen to be just too "different" to our fast paced, materialistic, "civilised" world.. well, I think that some people seem to deny their connection and don't even want to know about it. It could range from "snobbish" denial - maybe even to a form of racism. (Even though we might Like a certain politician think we are "The least racist person in the room").... Looking back at what was acceptable and what happened years ago, may amaze us - but I think if those ancestors could look forward and see what is acceptable to us now, they too would be truly amazed. Can we look at their lives and accept, without judging according our standards, but see them with their historical circumstances? Can we realise that sometimes - even with warts and all, they still have plenty to teach us?
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Sorry, I would like to clarify my previous post. I said "to the current generation"... Well, I have to state that in some parts of the world the younger generation are actually opening their eyes to the values of generations past. I live in Australia, and although I for example have no genetic links to the Aboriginal groups, I know that within the past few years, the younger aboriginal (and "part" aboriginal) generation have actually come out strong and proud of their heritage, their knowledge and wisdom. So, maybe my thoughts in the previous post relate more to my own "older" generation!!
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"Our background may be very mixed ..."
Gads, I wish I could find some mixing. I have found precisely two direct line ancestors who were non-British. Two. It was a red letter day when I discovered a French Huguenot 7x g-grandfather. French!! The other is a German ggg-grandmother. That's the size of it.
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Hi
I understand your point and that several groups are trying to deny the past and want to alter what as happened.
I think we should embarrass all our past no matter what. We should look forward and make sure we do not repeat a lot of the mistakes of the past and we can only do that by admitting the wrongs and learning from them and not brushing them aside and ignoring them.
John
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...Can we look at their lives and accept, without judging according our standards? Can we realise that sometimes - even with warts and all, they still have plenty to teach us?
Yes certainly, but today is in many ways no better than the past, there is still a lot of racism in the UK, there is a section of Scottish society who show racist aggression against the English, at the other end of the spectrum slavers like Coulson saved tens of thousands of Africans from torture and death, he did not go into Africa and capture people to sell as slaves but bought people who were prisoners of war, who would otherwise have been tortured and killed by the African King, who had captured them as was the practice in those days (kill your enemies, as then they cannot attack you later).
The past is often remembered as part of an agenda, rather than the full historical facts.
Cheers
Guy
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I totally agree with your post Guy, and I wish that the facts of white slavery were as often discussed.
Raids along the coasts of UK and captured people enslaved on the African mainland often in brutal conditions.
No-one mentions that.
Not that it mitigates, but it would add some balance.
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Wooopssss .....
Sorry was having troubles with my rootschat connection for a while - and it appeared that the first one had not gone... sorry to be repetitive!...
Will check out the other one.
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Sorry that this post of mine has come through twice.. Now - I don't know what to do? Keep going with this one, and ignore the other? Not that I want to ignore the comments on the other post lol!...
I relate to the posts re slavery and racism etc., but actually when I posted the comments, I was thinking more of how some individuals actually don't want to recognise their own personal history and ancestry.
When I found out that my previously thought Scottish family was Irish on all sides going back only 3 generations, - my first comment - was "Oh what??? Irish???"... And I do know that the Irish arriving in my home city of Glasgow in the mid 1800's were not well received or accepted. Now the major part of my life has been in Australia - hence the comment about many of us having "mixed' ancestry - it is one of the things I love about Australia. My ancestors - Scottish/Irish - are a mix of illiterate labourers, Poverty, large families, - later generations going on to "Improve" and become teachers etc.... Would I feel the same about my heritage if they hadn't gone on and "achieved", "progressed", - or if there were sadder, less "acceptable" events, like criminality? Interesting question eh?
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Maggbill, I took the liberty of asking a moderator to merge your threads. :)
Moderator Comment: Ruskie - thanks - topics now merged :)
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Racist aggression in Scotland against the English is a piece of nonsense, when did the English become a race for a start?
Skoosh.
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If you use your Report to Moderator button, I am sure they could merge the two threads. :)
I share an experience...
1994, regional New South Wales. A neighbour sends her young son (4 year old, not yet school age) to our place with a message "Mum says can I stay here until Dad gets home." Of course I agreed, and quickly made him something to eat while I pondered what was going on... Margaret had not phoned me, the school bus had dropped off her daughter, and the young boy told me his big sister arrived home crying and was still crying when his mum sent him to me. I phoned his Dad's office, but the Secretary said he had already left on a family emergency.
I won't go into all the details BUT it turned out that the daughter was very upset in her class, she was THE ONLY ONE who still had the same mum and dad all the way from her birth. She was upset because she wanted to be like everyone else, but she did not want to choose which parent "to give up" ...
It turned out the class teacher had been talking about family structures and diversity and children on access visits to divorced parents and step families ... and was encouraging her students towards accepting differences, not just based on ethnicity or language or heritage but also at a very practical level eg learning minor rules for each household and cooperating with each of the households rules. ... bedtimes, washing up, tv program choices, how to address step parent, step grandparents etc...
Our neighbours daughter had asked a question and discovered "everyone else" had at least one NEW parent ...
Thus the lass had this very significant meltdown while on her way home after school.
Mr & Mrs neighbour-to-us are still a couple, still keep in contact with us, the lass is now married with young children, the lad has no memory of that afternoon and what turned into an overnight sleep-over at our home.
BUT it took the combined efforts of her mum and dad and her four grandparents who all came straight away, one set drove for around 400 kms non stop., and the class teacher who also came to that home that evening.
Why did I share the above ... well the neighbours were not born in Australia. One was born and raised in Japan of Japanese parentage. One was born and raised in Italy, of Italian parentage. The couple had met in Sydney NSW as adults. They and their respective sets of parents and siblings had migrated to NSW at various times in the 1970s and 1980s.
The teacher had not spoken about racial discrimination, but about step relationships ... So the discussion was not about skin colour or facial features but about the unseen aspects of changes in a childs life in their families.
So it is not always easy to recognise the triggers that lead to discrimination and without that understanding it is very likely that it will continue to be difficult to overcome bigotry. But that is no excuse for avoiding the opportunity to research family history.
I believe that understanding local history in its time and place is very important, as context helps to provide relevance to the family history information being found.
JM edited to correct spelling and grammar ... one finger typing in tiny dialogue box on e reader... ::) ::) ::)
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I lot of the denial comes from modern teachings.
In history we are often told about the top 20% of the society but never told about the rest of the population that built the empire. We are told how great Brunel was but never told how those who built his railways & ships lived and died. It never tells how those labourers often with large families, would live in 2 room houses, (if they were lucky) and that they didn't have access to medical help or that when they got into financial trouble they would be just thrown out on the street to fend for them selves.
You always have to remember, as my father would say; you are not born with prejudice it is instilled into you. What you have to do is learn from the past and not follow it.
John
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I think that yes indeed our ancestors could teach us a lot ,and conversely we them,were it possible.
But we cannot change the already happened ,hopefully we can the yet to come.
I have not found any ancestors who were not British ,and that could have impoverished my gene pool , etc.
But if we can welcome good changes ,discard what is not so good and most importantly recognise the difference ,then that is a good way forward.
Is a happy second partnership worse than an abusive first one?
Well, children suffer in these situations and many women stayed put for their sakes ,was that really better ?or would it have been better to leave?
Hard to judge because of course financially women often had no power to often do anything but stay .
They could lose their children too if they left the marital home .
Never having had to make such a choice I should not be in any way judgemental.
But sadly a sensitive child will always wonder” was it me”,I have spent hours
sitting with such children, distraught at their parents’ break up.
We make apologies ,try to make amends for past errors,but we cannot alter the past .
So to move forward ,free of prejudice is the only answer as far as ethnicity
goes.
People should be judged by deeds not race or colour.
Things are moving on., how long before we stop seeing “ colour” first and the person second though ?
As you visit hospitals ,need your pharmacists help etc ,you do appreciate the
skills and dedication brought to NHS by other races.
We have much to thank them for .
Viktoria.
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Reality is FH is your hobby, not your families hobby and NO ONE has any influence on or can change who their ancestors were, nor are 'we' responsibile for anything any ancestor did good or bad...we have what we have like it or not.....what we can do is learn from our research and enjoy our hobby doing the best research we can to ensure we have all the proof we need in record form...........then we are passing on real proved ancestry should others in the family show interest now or later on
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No one can tell me who and who not to research in my tree, the more people say "Best leave things in the past where they belong" will just make me more determined to find out. You cannot choose your ancestry. I recently found a gateway ancestor from Essex back to Befordshire, then before them to Wales then before them some lines back to The Emerald Isle.
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I'm not sure why anyone researching family history would want to deny their heritage - it was what it was, when it was AND we can't change the past to suit ourselves.
I'm just glad that, so far, I haven't found a murderer within the family. :)
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We cannot change the past
Louisa Maud
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Racist aggression in Scotland against the English is a piece of nonsense, when did the English become a race for a start?
Skoosh.
Race discrimination is when you’re treated unfairly because of one of the following things: colour, nationality, ethnic origin, national origin.
The 2011 census included the following ethnic groups English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish or British.
Wikipedia states- "The English people are an ethnic group and a nation native to England, who speak the English language of the Indo-European language family and share a common history and culture..."
In 1999 an English couple won an out of court settlement from a Scottish couple.They had alleged unlawful discrimination under the Race Relations Act, a claim which was backed by the Commission for Racial Equality. Note they did not win the court case as it was settled out of court but it shows there were grounds for complaint. I could go on but you get the gist.
Cheers
Guy
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I consider everyone to have their own different interests. It doesn't bother me that others aren't interested. It does bother me when people get annoyed with me for doing it. I don't make them listen to it. I'll maybe say I'm going to do some family history on my day off if asked what I'm going to do but don't regale them with details and I don't demand they join in. I respect their hobbies, they should respect mine AFIAC.
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Hi Everyone,
While I have been sleeping peacefully - there have been lots of comments on my post - Thanks for that. And I do agree with you all.
I am convinced of the value of knowing our heritage and backgrounds - and am not swayed by others opinions. Must say though that even if their opinions don't change mine, there can be ways of researching, and Telling the stories whether everyone is listening or not. Options to have 'private trees" online are good - but is that good enough to truly protect the "privacy" of those who are not genealogy inclined?? Must say though my tree is private I do see other trees online which are not, and some of them have major, major faults and mistakes. One other important point I think is to be able to research and tell the story within a social framework of the time.
So if as families can be major issues seen to be "faults" "mistakes" - is it true, that depending on what social strata we belong to, the faults can be seen to be more less acceptable. Programmes on various royal families and historical figures can bring forth issues which were fine in their day, - but if the same issues happened now to just the ordinary "Joe Bloggs" - people would put their hands up in horror. Absolutely extreme case? Recent programme about the Egyptian Pharaohs and their "lineages". Scientists have proved that in fact it was not just accepted but expected that a Pharaoh would "marry" and have children with his own siblings - The reasoning being, that a Pharaoh was a God, and they could only carry their line onwards, "undiluted" by having children with their own siblings who were also "Gods"!!!!!
Hey who could possibly say that Genealogy is boring!!!!
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Racist aggression in Scotland against the English is a piece of nonsense, when did the English become a race for a start?
Skoosh.
Race discrimination is when you’re treated unfairly because of one of the following things: colour, nationality, ethnic origin, national origin.
The 2011 census included the following ethnic groups English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish or British.
Wikipedia states- "The English people are an ethnic group and a nation native to England, who speak the English language of the Indo-European language family and share a common history and culture..."
Cheers
Guy
I recall several people (usually men) were taken to court due to the fact that they had written their nationality as "English" on the 2001 census form during the Blair/Brown reign..
People could tick they were born in England but their nationality had to be one type of "British" from a tick box British list..
Although there was no mention that the best country in the UK had been banned, I did wonder if I would be singled out and frog marched to court, as I had written my nationality as being "Yorkshire".
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In the 2016 Australian census there were a few questions regarding ancestry.
Q6: Are you Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander origin.
Q10: Are you an Australian Citizen
Q11: In what country were you born
Q13: In what country was your father born
Q14: In what country was your mother born
Q17: What is your ancestry
For Q17, there were 7 countries stated, and the other, for you to fill out.
Quite innocuous questions. I do not recall any problems about them.
AC
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Hi Everyone,
While I have been sleeping peacefully - there have been lots of comments on my post - Thanks for that. And I do agree with you all.
I am convinced of the value of knowing our heritage and backgrounds - and am not swayed by others opinions. Must say though that even if their opinions don't change mine, there can be ways of researching, and Telling the stories whether everyone is listening or not. Options to have 'private trees" online are good - but is that good enough to truly protect the "privacy" of those who are not genealogy inclined?? Must say though my tree is private I do see other trees online which are not, and some of them have major, major faults and mistakes. One other important point I think is to be able to research and tell the story within a social framework of the time.
So if as families can be major issues seen to be "faults" "mistakes" - is it true, that depending on what social strata we belong to, the faults can be seen to be more less acceptable. Programmes on various royal families and historical figures can bring forth issues which were fine in their day, - but if the same issues happened now to just the ordinary "Joe Bloggs" - people would put their hands up in horror. Absolutely extreme case? Recent programme about the Egyptian Pharaohs and their "lineages". Scientists have proved that in fact it was not just accepted but expected that a Pharaoh would "marry" and have children with his own siblings - The reasoning being, that a Pharaoh was a God, and they could only carry their line onwards, "undiluted" by having children with their own siblings who were also "Gods"!!!!!
Hey who could possibly say that Genealogy is boring!!!!
I keep reading about “privacy” in the last few years but what is “privacy”?
Here in the UK there are no laws of “privacy”, there are laws created to prevent the state, government and the authorities interfering with the private lives of population, which these days are being hijacked to prevent public information being displayed, i.e. censorship!
This was enshrined in laws such as the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (Human Rights Act), signed in 1950.
A number of years ago the Information Commissioner (the person responsible for enforcing the Data Protection Act, etc. made a statement that “It was acceptable for individuals to publish details such details of birth and marriage on their personal websites and online family trees”. Since then amateur censors of all shapes and sizes decry people who do so.
This has the knock on effect of organisations such as the General Record Office (GRO), breaking the law by creating an office policy of insisting people provide details such as Father's Name & Surname before supplying recent (non historic) birth certificates rather than just the GRO reference as required by law.
That in turn breaks the Human Rights Act section 8 dealing with “family life”.
In a similar (and sometimes connected) way the official paperwork connected with births and deaths may not be correct. E.G. The father of a child born to a married woman is assumed by the authorities to be her husband unless it can be shown “he did not have access to her” during the relevant time period. However family knowledge may know the true picture and record someone different from the recorded father. Over time that family knowledge may be forgotten, confused or even denied unless it has been written down somewhere, perhaps in a family tree.
We are now in a period when DNA is revealing that some historically accepted “facts” are now dubious assertions.
Cheers
Guy