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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Magh Itha on Sunday 25 October 20 17:08 GMT (UK)
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Margaret Barr b. 1883 and Ellen Barr b. 1885 were born in Bauville, Buncrana, County Donegal.
Their parents were William Barr and Mary McGlynn.
The emigrated to Scotland most likely Glasgow like their sister Ena (whom I have information on).
I have no further information on Margaret and Ellen and would appreciate it if anyone could help.
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What's the last record you have for the sisters in Ireland? the 1901 and 1911 Irish (free) & Scottish (Scotland's people/ Ancestry transcription 1901 only) census records are both available.
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Have you looked for marriages/deaths for them on Scotlands People? Neither are found on the 1901 Scottish census
When did Ena leave Ireland?
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
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Family entry for 1901 in Donegal is here www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000667514/
No sign of Ellen in the household. Could she have died young? There is this death entry. Can't say if it is her https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1885/06280/4799420.pdf Do you know the name of William Barr's mother?
Monica
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There is a Hannah showing in 1911 around the same age as Ellen would have been?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002083215/
Have you checked first for possible marriages in Ireland? www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
Monica
Added: Other family researchers have Hannah as born on 13 December 1886 in Bauvile, marrying a Con McLaughlin.
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Ireland Census 1901
In the 1901 Census Both Ena and Margaret (Maggie) are still at home in Bauville, and Ellen is nearby in Gransha with her Aunt Fanny.
The house they lived in was only one room.
So all three were in Donegal at that time.
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It's easier if you post links to details you've already found or even give us all details at the start. Since you've found the sisters in 1901 it's really from that point forward you are looking for information.
For reference-
Household of William Barr with daughters Enna & Maggie-
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Buncranna/Banville_Keelogs_and_Clonglash/1181199/
Ellen- http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Buncranna/Gransha/1181225/
A Margaret Barr in 1911- age is slightly out but employer would have filled out the form-
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Londonderry_Urban__1_/Asylum_Road/600778/
Ellen (born 2 Mar.1885)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02658/1979921.pdf
Can't see marriage for Ellen in Inishowen district.
Margaret (born 11 July 1883)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02724/2002033.pdf
Hannagh (born 13 Dec.1886)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02571/1950591.pdf
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Maggie Barr in 1911 Scotland Census
In the 1911 Census for Scotland Maggie Barr was at 23 Balgraybank Street, Springburn, Glasgow.
She was staying with her sister Ena her family and parents-in-law.
A granddaughter of Ena sent me information and I do not have a link.
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I am looking for my grandmother who was part of the same family.
Her name was Eileen Barr.
Her father was William Barr and mother Mary McGlynn.
She married my grandfather John MacDiarmid who lived in Dun Dhu in Aberfoyle Perthshire where he was a gardener on one of the estates there.
I am trying to find out more about Eileen Barr.
She was born in Boncrana on 29/3/1890 and died in Glasgow on the 7/6/1929. She worked as a laundrey maid in Torryburn, Fifeshire and appears on the 1911 census and married on Christmas day 1913 in Market Drayton in Shropshire England.
Her youngest daughter Eileen MacDiarmid married my father Hugh McCann.
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Welcome to RootsChat, Teech1954 :)
Have you found Eileen in the 1901 census? She doesn't show with siblings and father from the earlier 1901 info that was posted by Aghadowey:
Household of William Barr with daughters Enna & Maggie-
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Buncranna/Banville_Keelogs_and_Clonglash/1181199/
Ellen- http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Buncranna/Gransha/1181225/
Monica
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There are no results for Eileen Barr anywhere in the 1901 Irish census. Nor can I find any record of her birth in Ireland. I know she was born in County Donegal and I am certain I have the correct family as we traced them to Springburn. My mother confirmed she had relatives in Springburn Glasgow. The 1851 census is too early to record her as she was born in 1890. I suspect she might have left Ireland for Scotland prior to 1901 along with a brother Joseph who would be around the same age. She would have been 11 years old in 1901. Her father is shown on the census as a widower. Perhaps, she was sent to Scotland along with her brother to be looked after by relatives. She appears in the Scotland census 1911. She was working as a laundry maid in Torryburn Fifeshire in 1911 at the age of 21. Her country of origin is recorded as Ireland. On her marriage certificated dated 25/12/1913 the same address is listed. She was married in Market Drayton, Shropshire to my grandfather John MacDiarmid and the lived in Dun Dhu, Aberfoyle Perthshire until her death on 7/6/1929. Prior to the age of 21 I have no information on her whatsoever. Any information would be much appreciated.
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Would really help to find her and brother Joseph in the 1901 census. What do you have on her brother Joseph? How do you know about him?
One thing that worries me about trying to connect Eileen to the family of William Barr and Mary McGlynn, are the number of children showing on the 1911 census http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002083215/
This states that there had been 8 children born and six living. From what we have seen here on this post, we have for the family:
Enna b. 1880
John b. 1881 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02828/2037150.pdf
Margaret b. 1883...link to cert above
Ellen b. 1885...link to cert above
Hannagh b. 1886...link to cert above
Missing one living child from this list to make up six...but not two to account for a Joseph and your Eileen :-\ You have a specific date of birth for Eileen, 29/3/1890. Is this from her death reg or 1939 register?
Monica
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I worked as a census officer in Scotland twice. As I recall you only record those individuals present in the house on the day of the census. I think by living they mean living in the house at the time of census. My mother is the source of most of the info I have and she was her daughter. Unfortunately, Eileen Barr died when my mother was only 4 years old. The names of those present in the census tally with my mother's recollections and the rest of the family. I have little doubt the family in Ireland and in Springburn are one and the same. I only know Joseph was born justshortly before or after Eileen. She may have attended school in Scotland so I am going to try and access the school admission register. It is a long shot but worth a try.
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The name Eileen can be a variant of Helen etc, see www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=eileen
From Aghowdowey's earlier details, the Ellen we have as daughter of William and Mary was born on:
Ellen (born 2 Mar.1885)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02658/1979921.pdf
Can't see marriage for Ellen in Inishowen district.
But no clues on Joseph so far. Did he move down to England for work with Eileen?
Monica
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As he was not on the census I can only assume he went with Eileen as they both would have been very young at the time.
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I think by living they mean living in the house at the time of census.
This question in 1911 was specifically asking the following questions:
- how many many years a couple had been married
- how many children born alive to them
- how many were still living
See also below from the actual form.
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See what you mean. I would be inclined to forget about Joseph therefore and concentrate my efforts on Eileen. Couldn't see anything for Helen that fits in the cencus but will research births to see if that yields any info. Thanks
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The 1890 year for a birth is not possible. Just found Mary McGlynn's death and that of a baby son William on the same day https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1888/06168/4762871.pdf Father William reported both deaths :-\
Just for info, if you don't have it, father William died in 1922. Death reported by brother John https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1922/05069/4389568.pdf
Monica
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So sad always. Baby William died just minutes after his birth I think. I thought from his death it read 10 months, now I think it was 10 minutes.
His birth reg, confirming mother as Mary McGlynn here https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02506/1928971.pdf
Monica
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Couldn't see anything for Helen that fits in the cencus but will research births to see if that yields any info.
Some details on Ellen have already been included above as mentioned:
Her birth
Ellen (born 2 Mar.1885)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02658/1979921.pdf
1901 census
Ellen showing as a niece in the household
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Buncranna/Gransha/1181225/
There did not seem to be any reference to Ellen in the 1911 Irish census or possible marriages for her there.
Monica
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She was born in Boncrana on 29/3/1890 and died in Glasgow on the 7/6/1929
Dohh! I missed this for her death place. So, you have been able to confirm her parents' names including mother's name from her Scottish death reg?
Eileen MACDIARMID/BARR
Age 38
1929
644/24 603
Cathcart (Glasgow)
Monica
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From her marrage certificate her father was William Barr occupation farmer. From her death cerytificate her mother is as Mary Barr m.s. McGlynn. On the death certificate it states her age as 38 which is consistent with a date of birth as 29/3/1890. It is to be found in the Parish of Cathcart County of Lanark 1929. Is it possible that she was told her mother was Mary McGlynn but she was actually a child of one of the daughter out of wedlock?
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Don't think their birth years would work with that theory :-\ Philomena/Enna we have so far as eldest and she was born c 1880. The other issue is that from those details you have, there is no birth cert showing nor is she with family (or elsewhere that I could see) in the 1901 census. I think it is more likely that Eileen could be Ellen born on 2 March 1885. People were a lot more approximate with ages etc at that time.
What was husband John MacDiarmid's birth year?
Monica
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The other death was Patrick aged 5 in 1883
Name: Patrick Barr
Date of Death: 30-May-1883
Age: 5 Parish / District: BUNCRANA
Address: Boville County: Co. Donegal
Occupation: FARMERS SON
Graveyard Informant
Graveyard: Relationship: Father
Parish: Name: William Barr
County: Address: Boville
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Thanks, Sancti ;) So, those our two deaths from the 8 births showing on William's 1911 census entry (baby William and now Patrick). Patrick's 1878 birth here https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02977/2090592.pdf
I haven't been able so far to find William and Mary's marriage to see the full range of years for their children. We are still missing one living child from the 6 living children and looking at the list we had already. We know that baby William was their last child in 1888.
Monica
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Sixth living child was Mary, born 1879 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02896/2061107.pdf
So, in summary of the children for William and Mary we have:
Patrick b. 1878, died 1883
Mary b. 1879
Enna b. c.1880
John b. 1881
Margaret b. 1883
Ellen b. 1885
Hannagh b. 1886
William b. 1888, died 1888
For the record, William and Mary had another child, Anthony born in 1876 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03034/2112065.pdf
An oddity. The RC baptism register has the name INA Barr on the 7 Dec 1876, following birth on 6 Dec 1876. Can't explain that :-\
Monica
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Still trying to find out more about John Macdiarmid will keep you posted.
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Found John MacDiarmid in the 1881 Scotland Census. He was one of fifteen children apparently. He was 7 months old at the time so he would have been born early September 1880. There address was Ardchyle, Kenmore Perthshire.
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I see Ellen Barr as niece as you spotted earlier. What I find odd is that all references I find i.e. employer and marriage certificate to my grandmother all refer to her as Eileen. Even my mother calls her Eileen. So why the name change?
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Eileen and Ellen are first name variants. From before, www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=eileen
With lots of names, you will see at times the use of one variant or another on different documents. She may have chosen to stick to Eileen when she was an adult.
Monica
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Found John MacDiarmid in the 1881 Scotland Census. He was one of fifteen children apparently. He was 7 months old at the time so he would have been born early September 1880. There address was Ardchyle, Kenmore Perthshire.
You been able to confirm John's father's name from his English marriage haven't you? I only say that because there were two John McDiarmid born in Kenmore Perthshire c. 1880-1. The one you mention and another one whose parents were Alexander McD, a farm servant, and Janet Anderson.
The one you think was Eileen's husband was born 1880 in Kenmore to John McDiarmid, a gamekeeper, and Elizabeth Menzies.....unfortunately this son John died in 1889 at the age of 9 years....They had no later son called John.
What did John show on his 1913 marriage in England for his father? Did he remarry after the death of wife Eileen? Have you found his death to check what it says about his parents?
Monica
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Am I right in thinking that the first born children for John and Eileen, after their marriage were:
Archibald D. b. 1914
Mary E. E. b. 1916
Isabel b. 1919
Purely on naming pattern, I would guess that his father may have been Archibald and mother Isabel!
So happens, there is a possible entry with these parents. From 1891:
Archd McDiarmid 50 Crofter & Joiner b. Killin
Isabella McDiarmid 47 b. Kenmore, Perthshire
Donald McDiarmid 10 b. Killin
John McDiarmid 9 b. Killin
Jessie McDiarmid 7 b. Killin
Address: Bealloch, Killin, Perthshire
Speculation and guessing aside, you do need to verify John's parents and family from his official records. Marriage and death certs are your first two points of call really.
Monica
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Order of children is correct. My mother Eileen was born 9/3/1925. The youngest. Her mother died when she was 4 years old. Okay will try to get both certificates, thanks.
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Did John remarry after Eileen died? Thinking it might be easier to find this second marriage on SP in order to confirm both parents for him.
Monica
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I have his John MacDiarmid death certificate. He died in the village of Logie the house where I often stayed as a child. It confirms his father as Archiebald and his mother as Isabella and Archie my uncle was present. Date of death was 28/10/1951
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His age on his death was recorded as 65 so birth year 1886.
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Isabella had the maiden name McCallum
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Thanks for confirming :) Seeing now that in 1891 there are a number of John's born around that time in the 1880s with parents Archibald and Isabella. Too many to guess really. John may not have been born in Perthshire, just worked there later.
What was father Archibald's occupation from his death reg?
Monica
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He was recorded as a ploughman
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Archibald McD and Isabella McCallum were married in 1866 in Kippen Stirlingshire (original image will be on SP will let you confirm their parents' names).
Looking at the 1891 census for who I think is them, big family!
Archibald McDairmid 43 Ag Lab Ploughman b. Kippen
Isabella McDairmid 41 b. Killin, Perthshire
Archibald McDairmid 23
Malcolm McDairmid 18
Catherine McDairmid 14
William McDairmid 12
Isabella McDairmid 11
Davina McDairmid 8
Alexander McDairmid 6
Joan McDairmid 6
John McDiarmid 4 b. Kippen
Walter McDiarmid 10 Months
Malcolm McCallun 79 father in law Sawmiller Unemp b. Inv. Invernesshire
Address: Main Street, Kippen
Monica
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In 1901, John is still at home living in Renton Cottage, Kippen. Aged 14, he shows as working as a Market Gardener. This fits well with the occupation you have for him in later years doesn't it?
Monica
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Brilliant, I was told he was one of fifteen children so there might be more lurking out there besides the ones that you have found. That would make sense as my mother lived in Kippen and Aberfoyle as child.
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Yes it is a very good fit.
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Archiebald my uncle was a gardener all his life and we all love gardening. Must be in the genes.
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He lived in Logie where John died with my Aunt Mary and Aunt Iba (Isobell)
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All died unmarried, so only my mother continued the lineage.
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Sounds like you are off and away now with the families ;)
Plenty there now for you to try and work back. Ireland can be complicated after the period you have been in as online records begin to dry up.
Monica
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Building a family tree on Ancestry have already found another branch to my fathers family. So looking good thanks. Let you know if i find out anything else. Thanks for your help really appreciated.
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If you ever get the chance to visit the places mentioned, Aberfoyle, Killin, Kenmore etc. they're well worth visiting, beautiful places.
I recall a very rainy day shopping in Aberfoyle, we were the only 2 people on the main street & went into a cafe & during conversation with the owner? he told us Aberfoyle has the highest amount of rainfall in Scotland...this has just come back to me!
A word of caution on 'ancestry trees'...be sure to check the info. out for yourself as there are some dubious concoctions on there :)
Annie
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I recall a very rainy day shopping in Aberfoyle, we were the only 2 people on the main street & went into a cafe & during conversation with the owner? he told us Aberfoyle has the highest amount of rainfall in Scotland...this has just come back to me!
That does surprise me. I can't imagine why your cafe owner would want to claim that sort of record :)
I lived in Fort William for a year, and one of the rather dubious claims to fame of An Gearasdan is that it has the highest rainfall in Scotland. I remember that it never seemed to stop raining at all.
So I had a look at https://www.scottish-places.info/ which gives average annual rainfall for various places.
Fort William gets 1504 mm a year, Oban 1678 mm and Portree 1728. Aberfoyle gets 'only' 1168 mm, so it's not the wettest place by a considerable margin.
Dunbar, by contrast, gets just 602 mm and Arbroath 667 mm.
Donegal, to get back on topic, gets 1337 mm, according to climate-data.org, or 1056 mm according to https://www.weather-atlas.com.
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I recall a very rainy day shopping in Aberfoyle, we were the only 2 people on the main street & went into a cafe & during conversation with the owner? he told us Aberfoyle has the highest amount of rainfall in Scotland...this has just come back to me!
That does surprise me. I can't imagine why your cafe owner would want to claim that sort of record :)
Unless it was for that particular yr at that point but I'd forgot about it until now?
Annie
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I recall a very rainy day shopping in Aberfoyle, we were the only 2 people on the main street & went into a cafe & during conversation with the owner? he told us Aberfoyle has the highest amount of rainfall in Scotland...this has just come back to me!
That does surprise me. I can't imagine why your cafe owner would want to claim that sort of record :)
Unless it was for that particular yr at that point but I'd forgot about it until now?
Maybe.
I am just glad that I no longer live in Fort William, and that I never had to live in either Oban or Portree. :)
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Ancestry is a source I have been using but I have been careful about accepting anything I can't verify. Are there other sources available. Apart from census etc?
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Ancestry is a source I have been using but I have been careful about accepting anything I can't verify. Are there other sources available. Apart from census etc?
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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Would still like to hear if anyone has any knowledge of Margaret Barr born 15th July 1883 and Ellen Barr born 2nd March 1885 in Bauville, Buncrana, County Donegal and who went to Scotland.
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Hi Magh Itha
Since page 1 of this thread we have been discussing that Ellen is likely Eileen, the direct ancestor of Teech1954 :)
Monica
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For the record:
The Eileen Barr to which reference has been made in posts above is NOT my Ellen Barr.
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Hi Magh Itha
What info can you add here re Ellen Barr to help Teech1954 further?
Monica :)
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For the record:
The Eileen Barr to which reference has been made in posts above is NOT my Ellen Barr.
When and where is the last documented location you have for Ellen?
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The last record I have for Ellen is 1901 with her Aunt Fanny In Gransha beside her home in Bauville.
and for Maggie is 1911 in Springburn with her sister Ena as mentioned above.
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Why do you think Ellen/Eileen are not the same person?
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This is not helpful
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This is not helpful
I know how you feel.
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Ellen Barr
DNA does not lie (Teech1954 has matched with my family).
My Ellen Barr is the woman referred to as Eileen Barr.
The Marriage record was wrong as to the date of birth and personal name.
I will now post separately about Maggie whom I am still looking for.
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Great to hear that the mystery on Ellen/Eileen has been resolved. Thanks for the update :)
Monica
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New topic on Maggie Barr-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=847624.new#new
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For the record:
The Eileen Barr to which reference has been made in posts above is NOT my Ellen Barr.
???