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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: markheal on Friday 30 October 20 23:29 GMT (UK)
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I am keen to find the Death details for the father FREDERIC attending this 1866 baptism below.
I have yet to find a marriage for the parents Mary and Frederick. Fred did not stay around as he was a Steward in the Royal Navy and by 1871 Mary had formed another partnership and named herself Mary BENNETT living in Southwark London.
By 1881 Edgar [now BENNETT] is back with his Mother.
Mary HENRY born Sligo ABT 1838-1908.
So far I have not been able to clearly follow Frederic in the Navy but he might have had two short prison sentences whilst in Australian waters.
Frederic CROCKFORD born 1838
FREDERIC CROCKFORD WESTBOURNE, Sussex,
BIRTH 12 JUL 1838 • WESTBOURNE, Sussex, England
POSSIBLE DEATH 3 DEC 1917 • Tasmania ??? Gold prospector ???
==============================
Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
Edgar CROCKFORD 1866
Name Edgarus Crockford
Age0
Birth Date10 Sep 1866
Baptism Date20 Sep 1866
Baptism Place St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Frederici Crockford
Mother: Maris Henry
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Where did you get the information that Frederick died in Tasmania?
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Where did you get the information that Frederick died in Tasmania?
This is a speculation and only a possibility found by a slow process of elimination of all other men with similar birth names and birth year!
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I am keen to find the Death details for the father FREDERIC attending this 1866 baptism below.
There is no evidence that Frederick was at the baptism only that he was the father of Edgar. Who were godparents?
Were there other children of the relationship?
Have you found Fred on a census?
Have you tried the surname as Croxford or Crossfield?
Age recorded for death registration may have been approximate, especially for someone who died away from home and family.
Who did Edgar name as his father when he married?
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Do you have a copy of Edgar's actual birth cert? What occupation is given for Frederick?
Does the cert show Mary as nee Henry or just as Mary Henry? If they did marry - could it have been in Ireland?
The birth details you give for Frederic - are they from English records or from the Tasmanian death records?
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Looking at the tree on Ancestry there appears to be a lot of name changes. Apparently Edgar became surname Anstruther at some point.
From the info given in your post - we don't know that Frederick is the mariner listed in the 1861 census - unless his occ on Edgar's birth cert confirms that?
Same comment applies to the Australian death record re Fredericks birthyear/birthplace
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Does the cert show Mary as nee Henry or just as Mary Henry? If they did marry - could it have been in Ireland?
I looked at civil marriage registrations in Ireland 1845-1870 on Irish Genealogy.ie No marriage for Frederick Crockford. However, if they married in a Catholic church in Ireland before 1864 there wouldn't have been a civil record.
2 children of Henry Crockford, a boatman with the Coastguard service, of Ardmore, County Waterford, were registered in Youghal district, Aquila 1866 and John 1868. Mother was Ellen (RYAN). I wondered if Henry might have been a relative, as they had seafaring in common . Crockford was an uncommon surname in Ireland.
I checked for a death of Frederick Crockford in Ireland but found none.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
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I am keen to find the Death details for the father FREDERIC attending this 1866 baptism below.
There is no evidence that Frederick was at the baptism only that he was the father of Edgar. Who were godparents?
Were there other children of the relationship?
Have you found Fred on a census?
Have you tried the surname as Croxford or Crossfield?
Age recorded for death registration may have been approximate, especially for someone who died away from home and family.
Who did Edgar name as his father when he married?
Thank you for your careful thoughts.
The baptism record does name Frederici and Maris separately but you are correct that he might not have actually been in attendance! I will take another look at the original birth certificate.
Interestingly, Edgar's birth was registered by Mary's Mother Ann HENRY 'present at birth' her address is 22 Great Orford Street, Liverpool but Edgar's birth place is given as 13 Pembroke Gardens, Liverpool.
So ALL the information seems to have come from the mother Ann and may have been wishful thinking that her pregnant daughter 'Mary CROCKFORD formerly HENRY' was actually married! Yes could be an Irish marriage or even in New York as this Sligo family had recently returned to Liverpool from about 10 years living in NY.NY. As a Catholic she might have refrained from a bigamous marriage with her next partner Robert George BENNETT.
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No Godparents mentioned from this online record.
No other children found [so far] from this relationship but I have only found Edgar in 1881 and he appeared not to fit well with his other step-siblings.
Name Edgarus Crockford
Age0
Birth Date10 Sep 1866
Baptism Date20 Sep 1866
Baptism Place St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Frederici Crockford
Mother: Maris Henry
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Fred is on all 1841, 1851 and 1861 censuses.
I have not looked for alternative spellings as there are already plenty of Fred CROCKFORDS to research! He might have married in Tasmania to:
Jane Elizabeth Smillie
1848–1933
BIRTH 15 FEB 1848 • Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
DEATH 07 APR 1933 • Carr Villa Cemetery, Launceston
daughter of:
Stewart Smillie 7yrs transportation
1813–1885
BIRTH 30 DEC 1813 • Edinburgh Scotland
DEATH 16 DEC 1885 • Adelaide, South Australia
===============
Jane was previously married to:
Henry Walmesly
Marriage
year city, Tasmania
Spouse
Jane Smilllie
with:
Two WALMESLY children.
================
Edgar served in RMLI, did not marry, died alone 1908 in Hastings [inquest], occupation Valet.
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Looking at the tree on Ancestry there appears to be a lot of name changes. Apparently Edgar became surname Anstruther at some point.
From the info given in your post - we don't know that Frederick is the mariner listed in the 1861 census - unless his occ on Edgar's birth cert confirms that?
Same comment applies to the Australian death record re Fredericks birthyear/birthplace
Greetings Carole,
Yes, Lots of lies, self deception and erroneous myth in this CROCKFORD/BENNETT/ANSTRUTHER family. That why I was trying to limit this query to Edgar's father!
Frederic's occupation on Edgar's birth certificate is "Ship Steward'.
Fred is also on 1841, 1851 and in the Navy 1861 as Ord seaman.
I do not have the death cert from Australia as this death is my research speculation and I do not really have a clear continuous set of records [yet].
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I think the fact the his occ on the 1866 birth cert is the same as the 1861 entry is sufficient proof.
I don't know anything about Australian records but if his birthplace is shown on the death cert - bingo!!
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The baptism record does name Frederici and Maris separately but you are correct that he might not have actually been in attendance! I will take another look at the original birth certificate.
Interestingly, Edgar's birth was registered by Mary's Mother Ann HENRY 'present at birth' her address is 22 Great Orford Street, Liverpool but Edgar's birth place is given as 13 Pembroke Gardens, Liverpool.
So ALL the information seems to have come from the mother Ann and may have been wishful thinking that her pregnant daughter 'Mary CROCKFORD formerly HENRY' was actually married! Yes could be an Irish marriage or even in New York as this Sligo family had recently returned to Liverpool from about 10 years living in NY.NY. As a Catholic she might have refrained from a bigamous marriage with her next partner Robert George BENNETT.
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No Godparents mentioned from this online record.
No other children found [so far] from this relationship but I have only found Edgar in 1881 and he appeared not to fit well with his other step-siblings.
Name Edgarus Crockford
Age0
Birth Date10 Sep 1866
Baptism Date20 Sep 1866
Baptism Place St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Frederici Crockford
Mother: Maris Henry
Usual information on a Catholic baptism register entry then would be: child's name; father's name and perhaps father's abode or address; mother's name (and often mother's maiden surname); sometimes that they were a married couple (conjugam in Latin, perhaps abbreviated to conj.); baptism date; sometimes date of birth; priest's name; names of sponsor(s).
Forenames of parents in Latin should be in the genitive case ([son/daughter] of). So in Edgar son of Frederick and Mary, the names of the parents in Latin should be Frederici and Mariae which are genitive singular cases of Fredericus and Maria. "Maris" may be an incorrect transcription or a slip of the priest's pen. "Maris is the dative and ablative plural declensions (to/for/by/with/from). Translating "Frederici" and "Maris" literally would result in "Edgar son of Frederick to/by/with/from Marys". Obviously Edgar didn't have 2 or more mothers all of whom were called Mary, ??? so "Maris" is an error. (Please excuse my pedantry.)
Stella Maris/Star of the Sea is one of the titles of the Virgin Mary in the hymn "Hail, Queen of Heaven, the Ocean Star". The hymn would have been sung frequently in Liverpool's Catholic churches and with genuine feeling by families of seafarers. Mary Henry probably knew it by heart.
https://en/wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Queen_of_Heaven,_the_Ocean_Star
https://www.godsongs.net/2012/10.hail-queen-of-heaven-the-ocean-star.html
If there really were no godparents it's possible that Edgar was baptised privately, at short notice perhaps at home.
Edgar is an English name. Was it from Frederick's side of the family?
Was Frederick Catholic?
If Frederick and Mary had married in a Catholic church in Ireland before 1864 when all marriages were supposed to be registered and if Fred wasn't Catholic, then the marriage wasn't legal. If that was the case, Fred was at liberty to abandon his wife and marry another woman without committing bigamy. (I'm assuming that Mary was R.C.) Some Irish Catholic women who thought they were married found out their church wedding had no legal standing.
Interesting that the Henry family emigrated to New York and then went to Liverpool. I had a Henry relative through marriage. Her father and one of her uncles were born in New York late 1860's. Her grandparents were Irish-born. The family settled in Lancashire around 1870.
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Maiden stone,
You are a brilliant font of reliable information.
"If Frederick and Mary had married in a Catholic church in Ireland before 1864 when all marriages were supposed to be registered and if Fred wasn't Catholic, then the marriage wasn't legal. If that was the case, Fred was at liberty to abandon his wife and marry another woman without committing bigamy. (I'm assuming that Mary was R.C.) Some Irish Catholic women who thought they were married found out their church wedding had no legal standing."
These Irish marriage conventions [law?] for the marriage to non-Catholics and offspring really do make me think again!
Frederick is presumed non-Catholic but I will now look into his family more fully.
I had known that at marriage the couple were to pledge to bring up any offspring as Catholic, but is this in any Law? Church legal or State legal?
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Maiden stone,
You are a brilliant font of reliable information.
These Irish marriage conventions [law?] for the marriage to non-Catholics and offspring really do make me think again!
I had known that at marriage the couple were to pledge to bring up any offspring as Catholic, but is this in any Law? Church legal or State legal?
I've learned a lot since doing family history, such as legal uncertainties regarding marriages in the 4 countries of the United Kingdom in the 19th century. There was a form of common-law marriage or marriage by repute in Scotland. A person moving between U.K. countries could get caught out. A high-profile case was that of a Catholic woman from England who formed a relationship with an Irishman, who was Church of Ireland, after they met abroad during the Crimean War (1850's). They lived together in Scotland for a while and had a handfasting ceremony, witnessed by her sister, and lived as man & wife. They then went to Ireland and had a marriage ceremony in a Catholic church, telling the priest they had married in Scotland but the wife wanted a religious ceremony as well. The husband soon fell out of love with his wife. He left her and became engaged to a young heiress. When the wife found out she went to law to try and prove he was her husband. She sued him in Irish, Scottish and English courts. It was a cause-celebre. A parliamentary commission was set up to examine U.K. marriage laws c.1870.
The penal laws against Catholics which were in force in the 18th century and weren't relaxed completely until 19thC. included one forbidding a Catholic priest performing a mixed-marriage, a marriage between a Catholic and an Anglican. Penalty was death for the priest. The last time a priest was charged with that offence was in Ireland in 1830's. Once Catholics were allowed to be M.P.s they raised the marriage question regularly in Parliament.
Catholic canon law on marriage has been amended a few times over the past 5 centuries. Important papal encyclicals on marriage include "Tametsi" and "Ne Temere".
The pledge to bring up children as Catholic is between the couple, God and the priest. There was a custom in Ireland in 19thC that a child of a mixed marriage followed the parent of the same sex. A study based on 1901 & 1911 Irish census returns looked at the religious identity of children of mixed marriages.
English law upheld the right of a father to decide his child's religion until around 1925. "Family Law and Religion: An English Perspective" by The Honourable Mr Justice BAKER. (My other source for that information is a book on English family law, published in the 1920's which I read many years ago.)
An authority on Catholic family history was Jim Lancaster who died recently. He posted on RootsChat as "Lancaster Jim". He contributed articles to the Catholic Family History Society website.
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do you know whether Frederick had Crockford family in Liverpool and that is why he went there
could this be family ? - same church for his wife Marys burial
how very sad TWO daughters buried on the same day
Burial: 11 Mar 1749/50 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Cath. Crookford - Dau of John Crookford
Occupation: Barber
Register: Burials 1749 - 1754, Page 122, Entry 23
Source: LDS Film 1656376
Burial: 11 Mar 1749/50 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Eliza Crookford - Dau of John Crookford
Occupation: Barber
Register: Burials
Burial: 3 Mar 1780 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Mary Crockford - Wife of John Crockford
Died: 1 Mar 1780
Abode: Sea brow
Occupation: Barber
Burial: 20 Jun 1784 St John, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Crockford -
Abode: Poorhouse
............................................................................
my point is - could Frederick have married Mary as CROOKFORD - obviously both surnames used in the above family
something to think about
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The actual entry seen on Ancestry reads in translation by me
Edgar Crockford the son of Frederick and Mary Crockford ( nee Henry) no godfather and godmother Anne Henry.
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Frederick Crockford of Tasmania seems to have the middle name Henry.
Marriage to Jane Walmsley
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZP-B9D
He marries as a bachelor
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9CH-CG69?i=314&cc=2125029&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQ279-H8CS
1881
There is a court case re Frederick Crockford, gold prospection in Launceston, Tasmania. Mention is made also of Richard Crockford, another applicant plus Mr Weetman.
1889 Letter to the Launceston Examiner re Weetman and Crockford G M Company, signed Frederick H Crockford.
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Edited sorry you already know this
The Edgar Anstruther who died 16 September 1908 address 2 Robertson Terreace Hastings did not leave a will but the administration is to George Elliott Anstruther. Journalist.
The Bennett 1871/1881 family becomes Anstruther in 1891 and George Elliott Carnegie Bennett aka Anstruther was his younger brother.
His birth re 1870 St Saviour Surrey George Elliott Carnegie Bennett mother maiden name Henry
1871 the family are in Southwark Robert G Bennett 51 Annuitant born Perth Scotland, wife Margaret? 32 born Limerick Ireland, George E C age 6 months
plus Robert Henry Bennett reg 1876 Brentford mmn Henry
Mary Georgina Anstruther Bennett 1879 re. Brentford mmn Henry
Dominick Compton Anstruther Bennett 1881 reg Brentford mmn Henry
I cannot find, Fred A S - 1872, Gilbert E A - 1874 or Melgrund A - 1876
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amondg,
You have a good summary of my family who all have a chronic habit of name changing. I have come to believe that this habit started with the 'father'[probable alias of] Robert George BENNETT born abt 1820 Perth [not traced] who claimed to be a retired Infantry Colonel [not found in Army Lists], disappeared in the mid 1880's in a cloud of family myth of suicide and/or financial collapse and/or cheating at cards!
"I cannot find, Fred A S - 1872, Gilbert E A - 1874 or Melgrund A - 1876"
I am currently working on Fred A S 1872- 1942 [as ANSTRUTHER] who worked about 1901-1913 as a Purser on Isle of Man Steam Packet. I am keen to find any War service.
So far not found on the 1939 Register.
More detective work will be greatly valued!
I too have been unable to find birth records of Fred and Gilbert.
Good news that the birth for Melgund is registered as:
Births Sep 1876 (>99%)
BENNETT Robert Herbert Brentford 3a 101
Hanwell RC baptism as:
Melgund Robert Anstruther BENNETT in Hanwell on 2 Nov 1877 [original register].
The middle name ANSTRUTHER was squeezed in almost as an after-thought.
Robert Herbert 'Melgund' Bennett and LATER ANSTRUTHER LATER ANDERSON.
He married as:
Marriages Dec 1921 (>99%)
Anstruther Melgund E Cleaver Lambeth 1d 699
With his wife they ran a small 'working man's cafe' in Oxford in the name of ANDERSON.
Death registered as:
Deaths Mar 1944 (>99%)
Anstruther George 43 Oxford 3a 2093
Certificate shows incorrect age at 43. Should be 63.
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The Frederic Anstruther 1872 is listed on the 1901 census for the Isle of Man says he was born Scotland
1911 still in Isle of Man states he was born Fife Scotland his name Frederic Elliot Anstruther
The family likes the name Elliott, eldest son George has it for a middle name, and at one point son Dominic uses the name Dominic C Elliott-Anstruther, and Gilbert has the middle initial E.
Have you looked on Scotland's People for Frederic Bennett circa 1872
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The Frederic Anstruther 1872 is listed on the 1901 census for the Isle of Man says he was born Scotland
1911 still in Isle of Man states he was born Fife Scotland his name Frederic Elliot Anstruther
The family likes the name Elliott, eldest son George has it for a middle name, and at one point son Dominic uses the name Dominic C Elliott-Anstruther, and Gilbert has the middle initial E.
Have you looked on Scotland's People for Frederic Bennett circa 1872
Sadly, there is little coherence between what this family chose to declare on official documents and the reality.
I grew up with being told that all these siblings had been born ['on the wrong side of the blanket'] in India, fathered by a rich man who abandoned them to London poverty.
This myth seemed to them, to explained why they could not even find their own birth certificates. Well you wouldn't if you were looking under ANSTRUTHER! As good Victorians, the children were not encouraged to query the family stories even if some of them might have remembered being called BENNETTs. I have not yet found any school records.
I only found them all in 1881, living in Hanwell [next door to the RC church] when I searched MELGUND by forename only.
Any detectives out there are welcome to plunge in.
It would be grand to finally know how I got my two middle names!
Mark Elliot Anstruther HEAL
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amondg,
Just one line from your earlier post #17
"plus Robert Henry Bennett reg 1876 Brentford mmn Henry"
I have this certificate [currently mis-filed]with middle name HERBERT.
Births Sep 1876 (>99%)
BENNETT Robert Herbert Brentford 3a 101
and baptism:
Melgund Robert Anstruther BENNETT born 4 June 1876 but only baptised 2 Nov. 1877.
I wonder why there was this excessive delay before the baptism?
Many thanks for your continuing interest and all your efforts to sort out this family!
Mark Elliot Anstruther HEAL
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My mistake I wrote down Robert Herbert but typed Robert Henry.
The National Archives is still offering free download due to the closure for virus lockdown.
Try for the naval record of Frederic Crockford