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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Alan Ryan on Saturday 31 October 20 15:27 GMT (UK)
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I recently got a lead from my DNA map that I have family origins in Tipperary. Having searched every available parish register in the area, I found only one match; Patrick Ryan (gt-grandfather ?) bapt.1/3/1847 in Borrisoleigh, parents; William Ryan and Bridget Ready. From that I found William and Bridget's marriage; 4/11/1841 and siblings; Mary bapt.11/11/1842, James bapt.5/12/1844, William bapt.11/3/1849, Michael bapt,28/5/1850 and Ellen bapt,6/3/1854. Continued searching till 1860 but no more entries. At some point Patrick ended up in England, I suspect 1854 or just after and maybe appears in the 1861 census or later. I no longer have a subscription, could anyone find them please ?
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Who did Patrick marry please and where? Presumably one of his children was your possible grandfather?
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At some point Patrick ended up in England, I suspect 1854 or just after and maybe appears in the 1861 census or later. I no longer have a subscription, could anyone find them please ?
Census entries are available free of charge on familysearch, you just need to register
https://www.familysearch.org/search/
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Milliepede, Patrick was a widower when he married Mary Davis in 26/12/1891 and granddad was born 1/4/1893, both in Bradford, Yorkshire. rosie99, I tried LDS but didn't find it useful but I'll have another look.
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Do you have him on any census
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rosie99, Haven't found Patrick on any census, I've been searching and following leads for 25 years and my father before me. The DNA has given me new information but I still can't find a link between the family above to the definite facts I've known from the start. I picked up Patrick with his 2nd marriage in 1891 and lost him again 3 years later and my granddad had been abandoned. Mary Davis turned up back in her home town Kendal and later re-married as a spinster. I have distant cousins in New York, Alabama and New South Wales. Maybe Patrick was a bigamist and Mary, 18 years his junior, found out, making the marriage void and Patrick left the country.
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Well a family tree has (I think) the same person but parents as William Ryan & Sophie Hinds.
That Patrick marries Mary Davis 1891 then another marriage for Mary to John William Borwick in 1895 so only 4 years later :-\
On the face of that she is the bigamist not Patrick.
Have you found your grandfather - name? - on a census and who is he living with?
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From a published tree which shows the marriage of Patrick and Mary Davis, Patrick is a Tailor and was living at 28 King Charles Street Bradford.
1891 3625/163
20 King Charles Street Bradford
Patrick Ryan lodger Tailor
Maggie 15yrs b Manchester
Alice 14 yrs b Manchester
Going back through censuses
1881 3998/103/9
Living in Manchester
Patrick 55 yrs :-\
Ann
With children John, Margaret and Alice
Lancashire BMD http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
1857 marriage Patrick Ryan and Ann Rossitur
Lancashire Online Parish Clerks has several children baptised to Patrick and Ann Rossiter (varied spellings) https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Amongst the various Godparents there is a William Ryan who married Adelaide Frewen in 1859.
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Milliepede, I had Sophie Hinds a few years ago but discounted her after further research. I also have John Borwick on my tree and their marriage certificate. Something went very wrong just after my granddads birth in 1893. I need to connect the Borrisoleigh family to what I know about my Gt-grandfather, fill in the years between 1854 and 1891 and then I'll have a better idea of what happened to the family and who Patricks 1st wife was. Once I have that I can go back from 1841 and hopefully connect with my DNA cousins trees and discover where Patrick went c.1894/5
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1861 2956/79/37
3 Moor Street Manchester
Patrick Ryan 28 yrs
Ann Ryan 27 yrs
William Ryan 2 yrs
Mary A Ryan 3 yrs
Thomas Ryan 3 months
There are several families at this address. The next family is
William Ryan, 50yrs Tailor
Margaret 56 yrs
Charlott 12 yrs
All b Ireland
Going back to William and Adelaide Ryan, Lancashire opc has several baptisms and Godparrnts include Patrick Ryan and Charlotte Ryan.
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Just looking back at your post, if that is Patrick’s father William, then his wife is Margaret so would not fit your search.
Unless it is not your Patrick :-\
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heywood, I have 28 king Charles St on Patrick & Mary Davis's marriage cert in 1891. I previously found the 1881 & 1891 census's with Maggie and Alice but couldn't link them to my Patrick, I still have the notes if I need to look at them again. I have found 4 Patrick's living in the same streets at the same time so that makes things more confusing. The marriage in Lancashire in 1857 would make Patrick 10 years old. I need to find Patrick with his family in 1861 at 14 years old and possibly again in 1871.
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Yes, I agree.
Have you checked the death in Bradford 1896 for Patrick Ryan, 60 yrs.
I know the age is out but it is the only one I can see and could then be eliminated.
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What occupation does Patrick have on William’s birth certificate?
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heywood, I checked the 1896 death but Patrick was only 49 not 60, The only death that matched was in 1916, he was the right age and lived on Captain Street, the same street where granddad was born. I managed to trace the family back to Ireland via Patricks married daughter who was the witness to his death. On following the family forward again I was disappointed to find Patrick had married again "after Mary Davis" but the marriage cert gave his father as Thomas and not William. He was a tailor on both marriage (to Mary) and birth (William. his son) certificates
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Who was the married daughter?
When you say he married again, was that definitely your Patrick?
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It is worth bearing in mind that ages on records are not always correct.
Patrick in 1891 on King Charles Street is, I think, the only one who was a Tailor in that area.
Have you found others?
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heywood, That particular Patrick Ryan died at 79 Captain Street, the daughter was called M. Robinson who I traced back to Tullamore in Ireland. This was definitely not my Patrick or family, very disappointing after months of research, especially as Mary Davis had lived at 24 Captain Street prior to the marriage and 268 captain Street where Granddad was born, 3 years later. I have my notes, photos and documents over a foot high on my desk from the last 25 years, too much to rummage through but I do remember finding and researching 4 or 5 different Patrick Ryan's from the same area. There were slight age discrepancies and different occupations. I worked on many theories and leads but always came up onto the brick wall. I've left the more intensive research for a few years but with the new information from the DNA, I'm hoping I can at last track the family down.
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and 268 captain Street where Granddad was born, 3 years later. .
Are you sure about that house number :-\.
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I understand - it can very be difficult, especially with the names William and Patrick occurring in those Manchester records.
I assume you mean that the 1916 death is the Tullamore family and not yours via the Bradford connection.
I know the 1906 death may be too old but Patrick might have altered his age on marriage as Mary Davis was so much younger.
Additionally, she married, I think you said, in 1895.
With regard to the Borrisoleigh family, do you definitely have the DNA connection there? Have you gone forward with that family?
I apologise re the questions etc. I am sure you have been through this over the years. I am just trying to help. :)
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heywood, I don't have a direct DNA link with the Borrisoleigh family, that's what I'm trying to establish or rule out, as per my original post. My DNA profile puts me slap in the middle of Tipperary and this is the only family in all the Tipperary registers that match my search. I've been in contact with distant cousins in America and Australia who have pin pointed their ancestor's to Thurles, 8.5 miles from Borrisoleigh and also Limerick.
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Rosie99, 268 captain Street is the address given on the birth certificate in 1893
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1891 /1901 /1911 census do not have numbers in Captain Street over '100' :-\
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Sorry rosie99, my mistake, not looked at the birth cert for a few years, It's 268 Ripon Street, which used to be in the area of what is now Pollard Park
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It is worth bearing in mind that ages on records are not always correct.
Patrick in 1891 on King Charles Street is, I think, the only one who was a Tailor in that area.
Have you found others?
One last thought, are you basing Patrick’s year of birth on the age he gives at marriage?
I know you have found the baptism but you haven’t got any other record in England, have you?
On his marriage, he was quite a bit older than Mary Davis so he could quite easily have amended his age to make it closer to hers.
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Thank you everybody for your help and suggestions but I've found and researched every one of them and others in the past 25 years, most, I've disregarded, one or two are not conclusive. The family from Borrisoleigh fit the profile exactly, they didn't cease to exist after 1854, they moved out of the area, where ? I don't know but I'll keep looking until I do.
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Best wishes with your continued search. Perhaps DNA matches will clarify the situation in the near future.