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Title: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 01 November 20 08:37 GMT (UK)
http://slemen.com/erdington.htm

https://twistedhistory.net.au/2019/01/20/coincidence-in-murder/

This chilling story of a murder story repeating itself 157 years apart first came to my email via pin interest and I googled it.

Quite an interesting although chilling tale of coincidence.

 Poor Mary, there seems to be a bit of a wagging finger about her fate in her memorial inscription:

'As a warning to female virtue and a humble monument to female chastity, this stone marks the grave of Mary Ashford who on the twentieth year of her age having incautiously repaired to a scene of amusement without proper protection, was brutally violated and murdered on 27th May 1817"

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/16332725/mary-ashford

I wonder if anyone out there might have any surprising tales of coincidence in their own family history?
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: Treetotal on Sunday 01 November 20 15:49 GMT (UK)
Very interesting, how times have changed.
Both my Paternal and Maternal Grandfathers were born in 1887, one in St. John's Nfld and the other one in Hull. They both died in 1937 a month short of their 50th Birthday! Both of their wives were named Margaret Ann!
Carol
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 01 November 20 16:27 GMT (UK)
Thanks Treetotal for relating about the three (amended - four) coincidences with your Grandparents. Same birth & death year, age at death and wives with same name!  :o They sound like real experience twins!
This morning when I posted I couldn't  think of conincidences in my own line but I have now remembered that a missing Great Grandmother of mine was found to have married a man called Johnny and then later down the years her two Granddaughters (my maternal aunts) also married men called Johnny.

Also, a RootsChat coincidence .. recently another RootsChatter who I have contributed to help on their threads in the past, got in touch with me to let me know that we are related!!
It turns out that this person had chanced upon one of my threads and had noticed our connection.  We are both descended from Tyne Pilots.  It turns out that his ancestor was the older brother of my Great x 2 Grandfather!  How cool is that!! What a small world.  Of course, if we had both paid more attention to the names in each of our footers perhaps we might have realised our connection sooner.  Nice to meet a 'cousin' on here!  :D
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: Treetotal on Sunday 01 November 20 16:35 GMT (UK)
That's great chance meeting, I love it when people find each other on here...a few years ago, I suggested to people on the photo board that they name their relative in the title of their post, as when people google that name it brings them here...and I have seen it happen on there a few times  ;D
It may happen to me one day  ;D
Carol
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: Treetotal on Sunday 01 November 20 16:35 GMT (UK)
That's a great chance meeting, I love it when people find each other on here...a few years ago, I suggested to people on the photo board that they name their relative in the title of their post, as when people google that name it brings them here...and I have seen it happen on there a few times  ;D
It may happen to me one day  ;D
Carol
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: Treetotal on Sunday 01 November 20 16:36 GMT (UK)
That's a great chance meeting, I love it when people find each other on here...a few years ago, I suggested to people on the photo board that they name their relative in the title of their post, as when people google that name it brings them here...and I have seen it happen on there a few times  ;D
It may happen to me one day  ;D
Carol

Ooops!...there is an echo in here  ::) ;D ;D

Carol
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 01 November 20 16:50 GMT (UK)
I think that is such a good idea .. certainly good enough to mention it twice. ;D.  How fantastic it would be to chance upon a RootsChat photo of an ancestor that way.

This recent happening is my latest cousin.  Actually, since being on here I have discovered two RootsChat cousins!  The first is a descendant of my paternal Great x 2 Grandfather's younger brother. 

If I stay around long enough on RC I am hoping I can expand on my relatives no end!  ;D ;)

I wonder if anyone can beat that! ;)
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: Gan Yam on Sunday 01 November 20 18:57 GMT (UK)
My great grandfather was a train driver and was the driver of the express train in the 1915 rail disaster at Gretna. Family legend says he took the shift for another driver. There were 226 killed and 246 injured.  He was one of the injured, but luckily he wasn't seriously injured, but he died 4 years later on the anniversary of the accident. The accident was attributed to signalman error. 

13 years later his eldest son, my great uncle, and also a train driver took a shift for a sick friend. The train collided with another train and both drivers and fireman were killed.  The accident was attributed to signalman error!

Exactly one year later the driver who my great uncle had taken the shift for, volunteered for a shift on the same train, at the same time. As the train approached the site of the accident the previous year, he climbed on to the top of the train, stood up and was hit by a bridge, and died instantly.  He had felt so much guilt and remorse for the death of his friend! Gruesome!
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 01 November 20 19:53 GMT (UK)
Ganyam, what an extraordinary story and so sad.  Hopefully, these days someone in your Great Uncle's position would be offered counselling to help with recovering from such an awful and tragic experience.  A much older lady once said to me that there was no such thing as stress in the old days and that people just got on with things.  I disagree though I think stress has always existed and it is just that nowadays we are generally more accepting that mental health is real and should be looked after and attended to just as much as physical health. 

Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 04 November 20 00:00 GMT (UK)
I helped a DNA Jones match with adopted grandmother work out his links to our other DNA matches
I sent him photos of his grandmother s grandmother and two of her siblings so he could look for facial resemblance
It turned out that he already had ...the original..of the photo others were sharing but he didn't know who the old lady was and thought it was from his grandfather s side
To me and a descendant of that 3x g gmather it was proof of the link
But to him it was also proof that his grandmother had stayed in touch with her birth family

Coincidence..if I hadn't added my great grandfather s sisters portrait from one private tree a( with permission) and put on mine he wouldn't have seen it
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 04 November 20 08:16 GMT (UK)
What a good outcome Brigidmac, from this coincidence.  I can imagine how happy this would have made him to have proof that his Grandmother had stayed in touch with birth family.
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: mowsehowse on Wednesday 04 November 20 09:57 GMT (UK)
Fascinating thread RTL.
Great reading.
Thanks.  :D
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: oldfashionedgirl on Wednesday 04 November 20 10:35 GMT (UK)
I agree, fascinating.
I’m off to look for coincidences in mine.
The only one that springs to mind is the day my husband came into the room to see why I was laughing so much.
I explained that I had just completed a ‘Royal Flush’ as all of our Grandmothers had had ‘miracle’ , less than 9 month pregnancies  :o
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 04 November 20 11:00 GMT (UK)
You are welcome Mowsehowse and oldfashionedgirl. :). I hope all the Royal Flush survived the early births!

I have just thought of another personal coincidence.  My Grandfather was widowed twice and married a third time.  When I was a child I would visit them either with my Mother or on my own.  She was a lovely old lady, this step Grandmother but we all called her 'Aunty'.  Aunty had two children - a married daughter and a son who lived with them (quite old too) who had been reputed to have spent many years in Morpeth. (asylum).   I remember that he did not seem very well even then and appeared to be suffering from seemed to be what we would think of as shell shock.  He would have bad turns sometimes, especially if there was a sudden noise.  As a child I would find myself sometimes staring at this usually silent man, and unusually for an adult he would stare right back.  When I was eleven my Dad's sister took me abroad with her family on a plane.  When we came back and were almost about to land I got this sudden forboding sense that he was dead.  I said to my Aunt "Uncle Bob is dead".  I can't remember what Aunty said but I do remember that when my much older brother came to pick us up in his car one of the first things he said was to tell us that Uncle Bob had just died.  I remember Dad's sister's mouth nearly dropped open.
Then last year doing a little bit of research, I discovered that my step Grandmother had had two more sons who I hadn't known anything about.  Both had served in WW2 - one drowned and the other has a war grave in Holy Cross Cemetery.
Then onto this year pre lockdown...  I do a little bit of voluntary war research and an email from a very old lady was passed on to me wanting to know about 2 named people who had been killed through the war.  Well, when I looked into things I found that these two men were actually my step Grandmother's brothers!  Both had been killed with their families when their homes had been bombed.  Of course, I got straight back in touch with the old lady and related my connection and asked if she might be a relation of step Grandmother.  However, she said she had only been a child neighbour at one point and had been thinking of them.  So it was the coincidence of her email being passed on to me (of all people) that I discovered what sad things this step Grandmother went through.  Not only one son who seemed to have shell shock and two died through the war but also two brothers and their families lost.  I really don't know how she managed to keep so stoic! 
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: DianaCanada on Wednesday 04 November 20 13:56 GMT (UK)
My coincidences relate to my and OH’s trees.  We met in 2007, and after talking about my interest in family history, he mentioned a cousin had passed on a lot of information about his paternal family, several branches having arrived in Ontario before 1850.  When I looked through the folder I realized one of his 3x great-grandmothers and one of mine were born in the same village, Tatham, Lancs., about 18 years apart.  Funny to think the family members probably knew each other.  His ancestor and her husband came to Canada soon after the 1841 census.  My father was born in Burnley and came here as a child.
We also realized that although OH was born in Michigan and I in Quebec, his Danish grandfather ended up living in the town I grew up in.  He still has relatives there and visited the town a few times over the years.  Strangely his daughter had to have her hand stitched on a visit there, in the small hospital I was born in.
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 04 November 20 14:44 GMT (UK)
Oh, what a lot of coincidences Diana!  Incredible too to think that your OH and your ancestors probably knew each other at one period  and may have been friends.  A case of 'we'll meet again' it sounds like.

I have Tyne Pilot (sea & river) ancestors and I have been a couple of times to Heritage Open Day Pilot events.  It felt strange to think that all the other descendants there had ancestors who had known my own ancestors and that they had been friends.  Really felt like a small world as we discussed ancestors and their group photos.
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 04 November 20 15:20 GMT (UK)
Perhaps another coincidence.  I once contributed to helping on a long running thread on here.  One of the ancestors we were looking at had had a very rough start in life and in the early 1900s had got in trouble with the law a few times.  However, as we looked at things I began to suspect that one of this person's partners in crime was actually an ancestor in my own tree.  My Great Grandfather's sister's Grandson to be exact.  Anyway, the two of them went to court together twice.  The one who I think might have been my ancestor used the same alibi twice - that he was only carrying the stuff for the other person.  Amazingly, my (I suspect) ancestor got off twice and the other was sentenced.  I am not very happy about this as the upshot is that the other descendants on that thread have some really good criminal mugshots of their ancestor .. Whereas I could have had a couple too if not for the alibis.  ::) Oh well, life's tough sometimes.  ;)
It is amazing to think by coming together on RootsChat our  paths have sort of crossed again even though we - the descendants- live many miles apart.
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: DianaCanada on Wednesday 04 November 20 15:36 GMT (UK)
Great stories and coincidences, RTL!
I do have another more modern one, my son grew up in a small town in Ontario and at the age of 4 became friends with a boy on the next street, and they are still good friends 30 years on.  Both their fathers came from the same area in Quebec and it turned out, unbeknownst to me, they shared great-great grandparents there (and my ex taught his older sisters).  My mother-in-law mentioned it and when I told the boys when they were a bit older, they didn't find it fascinating, but rather a bit weird!
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Wednesday 04 November 20 15:55 GMT (UK)
What incredible coincidence that your son and his friend share some bloodline ancestors and that your OH once taught this boy's older sisters.  When you think on these stories we are coming up with I wonder if some connections really are destined to meet up again.

Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: DianaCanada on Wednesday 04 November 20 16:01 GMT (UK)
Just to clarify, my OH is my second husband.  Still on good terms with the ex, though!  :)  The ex's family have deep roots in Quebec and New England with lines going back to the 1640's in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and New Hampshire.  Eventually they made their way north and ended up in Canada in the early 1800's.  My OH is more recent, but much earlier than mine on his father's side, mother born Denmark.  However, my pure English roots make them much easier to research!
Of course, many people with roots in small towns are related to each other, and seem to take it for granted.  I didn't know many of my relatives, so that seemed wonderful to me.
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: danieloftyne on Sunday 14 March 21 11:18 GMT (UK)
One of my ancestors George walton married a lady named Margaret day 3 generations later my great cousin also named George walton married a lady also named Margaret rose day he had no prior knowledge of the family history incidentally I am river tyne lass new found cousin notice the similarity in our names 😊😊
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: Mike in Cumbria on Sunday 14 March 21 11:28 GMT (UK)
Just going back to the first post reminds us that some things don't change:

"As a warning to female virtue and a humble monument to female chastity, this stone marks the grave of Mary Ashford who on the twentieth year of her age having incautiously repaired to a scene of amusement without proper protection, was brutally violated and murdered on 27th May 1817"

Victim-blaming still persists.

Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: carlineric on Sunday 14 March 21 13:17 GMT (UK)
I discovered a great grand uncle had been killed in the Winter Quarters mine disaster in Utah (worst disaster at the time in USA with over 200 miners killed) along with a namesake son. Not only had his wife lost her husband and son she had also lost several brothers, brother in laws and cousins. One of her brothers had been killed in an earlier mine disaster in Wyoming. His widow subsequently married another brother who was also killed at Winter Quarters along with a son and stepson. Both the son and stepson were called James (they luckily had different middle names) and both were born in 1882.
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: Ayashi on Sunday 14 March 21 14:06 GMT (UK)
There are two enormous coincidences in my tree-

1) I got in contact with some cousin many times removed because their tree was online- they, along with our ancestors, were born, raised and still lived in Cornwall, whereas my side moved away and I've lived in Bedfordshire all my life. To my bewilderment I later discovered that they got married in the church next to my house!

2) I found a Rootschat Rellie on here who shares my 9th great grandparents. He was born in the same hospital in the same month and the same year as my mother, two and a half thousand miles away!
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: River Tyne Lass on Tuesday 16 March 21 09:35 GMT (UK)
Daniel, it is great to discover that we are 'cousins' through two Tyneside Pilots.  :D Your ancestor being Richard Bonner Young and mine his younger brother, Philip Young.  Our joint ancestors their parents John Young (also a pilot) and his wife Ann Young nee Fenwick.  With heritage like this it is probably not too surprising that we both chose to feature the river 'Tyne' in our names.  ;) I do have the coincidence of another cousin on here but they are from my paternal side.
Greetings, cousin Daniel!  :)

Mike, re Victim blaming I agree this has been going on for a long time. About time this is stopped.  A good while back I remember coming across an old article in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle whilst searching for something else. (Sorry, can't remember title or date) The article was about a man who had assaulted a young woman.  However, bizarrely on the same night he had rescued someone from drowning in the Tyne.    In court, he was praised for the rescue and his assault charge was dismissed as far as I can recall.  I felt outraged however when I read that the young woman had been told off and she was told that she had had no business to have been out that time of night and not to do this again!! 
Another one which staggered me...  In a local cemetery is a CWGC grave of Jean Watson Moore. 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/123092666/jean-watson-moore
I do local war history research as a hobby and I discovered that she had been murdered by her boyfriend. (Quite a few articles about this) He was going to be hanged until evidence came forth that she had not been 'pure' and then this was dropped to a prison sentence.  Hard to believe that she seems to have been judged in the case of her own murder. :'(

Thanks to all who have continued to post - all very interesting!
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: Ayashi on Tuesday 16 March 21 21:32 GMT (UK)

I do local war history research as a hobby and I discovered that she had been murdered by her boyfriend. (Quite a few articles about this) He was going to be hanged until evidence came forth that she had not been 'pure' and then this was dropped to a prison sentence.  Hard to believe that she seems to have been judged in the case of her own murder. :'(

Could this mean that she had been unfaithful or had hidden a promiscuous past from him and his response was regarded like a crime of passion? That there was some 'justification' for why he acted with spontaneous aggression?

One of mine caved a man's head in with a handspike while drunk. He even started it, from the sounds of things, however the victim was equally drunk and insulted my ancestor enough that my guy got away as 'not guilty', presumably on grounds of provocation!
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 16 March 21 21:36 GMT (UK)
I haven't found any murderers or other violent criminals in my tree.  I have several murder victims, though, and also a few petty criminals.
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: danieloftyne on Tuesday 16 March 21 22:21 GMT (UK)
Greetings rtl hope you are well I didn't know you liked the war history in walker cemetery there is a cwgc grave of 2 guys from the Serbian army ww1 I found it really unusual poor people left Serbia never to return
Title: Re: Chilling Murder Repeats Itself 157 Years Apart - tale of strange coincidence
Post by: greyingrey on Tuesday 13 April 21 16:18 BST (UK)
its not exactly a family tree coincidence....almost the opposite.

when my husband was single, he lived in a. city where there was only one other person person with his. surname in the phone book....one evening. an elderly American phoned him and said he was visiting England and was looking up his friend with the unusual surname as promised.

my husband tried to explain that he'd got the wrong person, but the American was somewhat deaf and became quite angry, luckily. shouting at the end...well, if you change my mind, im staying at. the....hotel

my husband. phoned the. other person. with his name and it turned out he'd been on nato exercised with the. American....but, more. than that, this mans grandfather. and my husbands. great grandfather had worked together in the same tiny village at the other  end of the. country and. the. man himself had also worked with my husbands maternal uncle in another city...but, as far as we know, he wasn't related to my husbands family.

by the way, the. surname isn't that unusual...Idv have thought it was reasonably common in every city,  whether in Britain. or the use