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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Andrew Tarr on Monday 02 November 20 17:52 GMT (UK)
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I am transcribing Catholic marriage records for what seems to have been an Irish ghetto in 1880s Liverpool. Typically there are about 30 per year. For May to September 1885 there were one or two per month. Then in October we find no fewer than 18 (yes, eighteen) marriages with a few more in November, after which things return to normal. Most of these couples give addresses in just two streets. I wonder if the local priests (or bishop) decided that a den of iniquity was in progress and sent in a task force ?
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maybe it was a simple as they gave a discount on the usual charges for the marriage ceremony.
The address given could be as simple as a suitacse moving in for the period of the banns.
Usual addresses are often those "of convenience" to save on costs.
Pauline
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Did that pattern happen only in 1885? Was there a similar pattern at other Liverpool R.C. churches?
Were occupations stated?
Suggestions:
They were marrying before emigrating. Relatives could have come over from Ireland to be witnesses and bid them farewell.
They were seasonal labourers who met during the summer and decided to marry before returning to Ireland for winter. They might have been moving around the county and further if they were agricultural workers or navvies, returning to winter quarters in Liverpool.
The men were construction workers who'd made money during the summer and their girlfriends were keen to get them married before the the money disappeared. (Just too early for the Manchester Ship Canal.)
You may be correct about the clerical moral crusade. There might have been a new priest or bishop or a mission. Did any have children before marriage?
Pauline may be right about a discount. Were any on the same day, a sort of BOGOF offer? There was an old Irish priest in my family's parish who had been trying for a long time to persuade a parishioner to "do the right thing" by the mother of his child - "I'll marry ye for nothin'" he told the man.
February was the popular month for weddings in Mayo, before Lent began. Few during spring and summer until the young men returned from harvest work in England.
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Looking at the north docks area for instance, on the nls maps, inland from Sandon dock there are streets and streets of terraced houses in 1890 which were not there in 1875.
My understanding is that these were built en masse, and released for rental all at the same time.
Once you had a house you got married.
Mike
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Did that pattern happen only in 1885? (see below)
Was there a similar pattern at other Liverpool R.C. churches? no idea, sorry
Were occupations stated? no
Suggestions:
They were marrying before emigrating. Relatives could have come over from Ireland to be witnesses and bid them farewell. Just one year looks unlikely?
You may be correct about the clerical moral crusade. There might have been a new priest or bishop or a mission. Did any have children before marriage? can't tell from these figures
Pauline may be right about a discount. Were any on the same day, a sort of BOGOF offer? there were several on Oct.14th and nine in that week
February was the popular month for weddings in Mayo, before Lent began. Few during spring and summer until the young men returned from harvest work in England.
Thanks for ideas - I have tried to answer your queries above, but have also done a more thorough count for the years I have transcribed. 1885 looks unusual, but an unlikely scenario is that from 1876-1884 there were noticeably fewer marriages in Sept/Oct/Nov until 1885 made up the shortfall. Seems unlikely to me, but there may have been regular visits from Ireland for work, and maybe the clerics noticed that some couples were unofficial ?
Year total Sep+Oct+Nov
1872 34 9
1873 35 10
1874 33 11
1875 34 12
1876 32 3
1877 24 3
1878 30 7
1879 22 2
1880 19 1
1881 25 6
1882 29 4
1883 29 8
1884 24 3
1885 41 26 !!
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The new houses idea by mazi has merit since many of the couples lived in 2 streets. Something seems to have happened in 1885.
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I'm afraid the new houses idea doesn't wash either, as the busy streets in 1885 are on the 1851 map of Liverpool, which shows the warren of poky little 'courts' we know of. It's the area between Scotland Road and the end of the Leeds and Liverpool canal.
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If you are doing the transcribing, presumably you can tell if there was a change of incumbent?
Pauline
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Is there a history of the parish?
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Can you name the streets and some of the couples maybe direct descendants or locals will come up with more theories
Its fascinating
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If you are doing the transcribing, presumably you can tell if there was a change of incumbent?
I think this is probably the answer. From 1872 onwards the most frequent celebrant was Patricius O'Donovan; some other names appear, presumably the equivalent of curates. In August 1885 Patricius Power appears for the first time (surname maybe significant?) and takes over the senior role although PO'D still puts in occasional appearances. Maybe he retired but continued as a locum. PP looks like a new broom.
This is part of the 1851 map of inner Liverpool. The streets mentioned most often are Blackstock St and adjacent streets to north and south. The church was St.Brigid's on Bevington Hill. just south of Currie Street.
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Is this St John's Kirkdale? The new church was officially opened in mid-November 1885 but perhaps it was opened for weddings a few weeks earlier. A newspaper article mentions "their hard working pastor Father Power".
Liverpool Mercury 23 November 1885, page 8, col 3
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Aha - looking at the (usually busy) register of St John's Kirkdale there were no marriages there between 6 October and 23 November 1885. So perhaps there was a temporary arrangement for St John's parishioners to be married at St Brigid's pending consecration of their new church.
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Ah, that must be it, Shaun. When I move on further with the transcript I shall expect to see Patricius Power return to home base ? Doesn't seem to explain the sudden drop-off in marriages ten years earlier ...
Just checked most of 1886/87 - Joannis Hickey seems to be in charge, but Frs Power and O'Donovan pop up from time to time. Presumably priests of neighbouring churches would 'play away' sometimes to cover, or maybe at the request of bride or groom.
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...an Irish ghetto.... a den of iniquity
I actually laughed aloud. This is literally what the area was; a disease ridden hellhole. Social campaigners were aware of how awful the area was in the 1880s and were investigating and publicising the issues despite the laissez-faire attitude in charge although I'm not aware of any specific projects as such.
If you're invested in the area one commission published a series of articles published in the liverpool daily post in 1883 called "Squalid Liverpool" which was later published as a pamphlet and, incidentally, you can buy reprints online for a few quid.
There are a couple of pages which comment on the catholic church - I think they give an idea of the challenges facing the area.
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Aha - looking at the (usually busy) register of St John's Kirkdale there were no marriages there between 6 October and 23 November 1885. So perhaps there was a temporary arrangement for St John's parishioners to be married at St Brigid's pending consecration of their new church.
Although I think this must be the explanation, I have looked again at the St.Brigid's records during those seven weeks. Without exception the partners give addresses in the 'ghetto' streets, as usual. I would have expected a few 'foreigners' if they represent marriages from St.John's ?