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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: dunscore on Wednesday 04 November 20 06:04 GMT (UK)

Title: John Peter Burns
Post by: dunscore on Wednesday 04 November 20 06:04 GMT (UK)
John Peter Burns' first marriage was to my Grandmother, Agnes Urie McDougall in 1896.  They had a daughter the following year who died aged 7 weeks.  John and Agnes divorced in 1900.  John was born in Chicago, Illinois c. 1869 and according to his Marriage Certificate, his parents were James and Catherine.

I know almost nothing about him other than that on his Marriage Cert. I have just received a Transcript for a John Peter Burns who was born in Illinois, USA who married a Margaret Flanagan c. 1907.  According to the Transcript, the children of the marriage were Theresa 32, (in 1942 when he died), Living and 2 females deceased.  Wondering if one of these females was Violet, the daughter he had with Agnes in 1897, although I assume not.  No previous marriage was shown on Transcript.

The fact that this John Peter Burns was born in Illinois, makes me think he is the right one, although  his parents were named as "Laurence Burns and Catherine Unknown".  Obviously depends on the knowledge of the Informant (who was his daughter Theresa).

I also obtained a Transcript for a Catherine Burns who died 1927.  The informant to her death was her daughter Agnes.  Her religion was given as Church of England (whereas John's was shown as RC). 

Catherine's spouse was James Burns (same name as given on John's marriage to Agnes McDougall in 1896).  The children of the marriage of Catherine and James were Agnes, Clara and Ruby, Living and 1 male and 3 females deceased.

John died in Alexandria Municipality and Catherine in Redfern Municipality.

Is this mother and son and can anyone shed any light on John in particular?

Dunscore
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 04 November 20 06:23 GMT (UK)
You probably already have this - applied for naturalisation in 1934:

"I, JOHN PETER BURNS, known as Byrnes, of American nationality, born at Illinois, and resident fifty-five years in Australia, now residing at 237a Henderson Road, Alexandria, intend to apply for naturalisation under the Nationality Act, 1920-30."
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article246444357

His naturalisation papers are available in Canberra, you can request a copy,  (for a fee of AU$36.27).
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=1075283&isAv=N
 Not sure, but it could contain more info that would have been provided by the man himself.
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: jorose on Wednesday 04 November 20 09:30 GMT (UK)
Was the Catherine Burns died 1927 born in the US also? If not I think given that she doesn't list John as one her children that she's unlikely to be related.

Possibly children with Margaret Flanagan were born outside of marriage. Can't see them under Burns but these were born/died under Flanagan with no father's name given:
Hilda 1906 Newtown
Mary M 1907 Sydney died 1907 Sydney
Margaret A 1908 Sydney
Theresa M 1910 Sydney

I can't find a marriage for them :(

However by 1917 Mrs Margaret Burns is mentioned in funeral notices for her mother, Ann Flanagan:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15731611?searchTerm=%22Mrs%20Margaret%20Burns%22
(the Flanagan family were Catholic)

This may be a mention of them - John, Margaret and Theresa Burns involved in a car accident in 1941.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/160520399?searchTerm=%22Mrs%20Margaret%20Burns%22
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: dunscore on Thursday 05 November 20 06:04 GMT (UK)
Hi Jorose,

The Transcript I obtained for Catherine Burns who died in 1927 was born in Kent, England.  She had been in the Colony for 57 years.  She was aged 79 at death and had been married in Waterloo, Sydney.  Husband was James.  She was buried in the Church of England cemetery, Rookwood.

As she was married in Sydney and I think John Peter Burns arrived in Australia aged about 10 years, then this really does count her out as being his mother.

Thank you for the info of Margaret Burn's mother's funeral.  A death notice noting Margaret's husband as being John would have been helpful too!

The car accident where John, Margaret and Theresa Burns were involved is a possibility.  Thank you for that too.

A death notice for Margaret Burns could also be of some help!

Trying to find Theresa Burns (who was aged 32 when her father died in 1942) has not been easy either. 

It is also strange that John Peter Burns' father was shown as Laurence Burns on his death Transcript but on his marriage to Agnes McDougall, it is shown as "James" .    John's address was shown as 237a Henderson Rd. Alexandria.  His religion shown as RC but when he married Agnes, it was in a Congregational Church in Sydney!

Dunscore
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: dunscore on Thursday 05 November 20 06:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Maddys52,

Thank you for the info re the application  for John Peter Burns'/Byrnes Naturalization in 1934.

This is something I could follow up as you suggest.

Dunscore
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 05 November 20 07:17 GMT (UK)

Is this your family?

For each record, can you please list all the information on the document.

BDM NSW
marriage
4576/1896 BURNES   John P  marr. McDOUGALL  Agnes W  @ Sydney

death
6255/1927  BURNS Catherine  parents Patrick / Margaret    @ Redfern

death
29778/1942 BURNS John Peter parents Laurence / Catherine    @ Redfern
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 05 November 20 09:05 GMT (UK)
There is this notice on 2 August 1939:

"Mr. JOHN BURNS and TESSIE, of 237a Henderson Road, Alexandria, desire to return their sincere THANKS to Father Breen, of Erskineville, and all their neighbours in their recent sad bereavement."
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17601177

Modified to add:
I'm guessing this is for Margaret BURNS died 21 July 1939 registered at Redfern. Parents Patrick and Ann Esther.
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 05 November 20 10:11 GMT (UK)
Rookwood Cemetery
http://search.catholiccemeteries.org.au/

BURNS   John P   73y  (buried)   07/11/1942   SEC*M2*16**288   Burial
BURNS   Margaret   68y   (buried)    22/07/1939   SEC*M2*16**288      Burial

Sydney Morning Herald
28 Jul 1939  p10
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17597684?
BYRNES.-July 27, 1939, Margaret Mary, dearly beloved wife of George Linden BYRNES and loved
mother of George, Frank, Margaret, Lawrence, and Jean. R.I.P.

Rookwood Cemetery(buried)
BYRNES   Margaret M   42y   (buried)   28/07/1939   SEC*M2*12**598
BYRNES   George L          57y    (buried)    02/07/1957   SEC*M2*12**597

We need to see the information on the certificates.
Title: John Peter Burns
Post by: dunscore on Wednesday 13 October 21 04:37 BST (UK)
I am trying to research my Grandmother's first husband.  She was Agnes Urie McDougall who married John Peter Burns in Sydney in 1896.   Their daughter was born in April 1897 but only lived 7 weeks.  They were divorced in 1900.
According to John Peter Burn's death transcript, he died in November 1942 in the Municipality of Alexandria and was buried in the RC section, Rookwood, 7 Nov 1942.
Again, on his Death Transcript, it says his Spouse was Margaret Flanagan. However, I cannot find a marriage for him to Margaret.  At his death, children of the marriage shows Theresa aged 32, Living and 2 females deceased.  If alive now, she would be 111.  I have found a birth of a Theresa in 1910 to a mother Margaret but no father mentioned.  Also 3 other girls whose mother was Margaret and no father's name given.  I am therefore wondering if in fact John Peter Burns did actually marry Margaret Flanagan.  John's "age at marriage" is shown as 35.  Interesting that his Death shows him as being Roman Catholic as when he married my Grandmother previously, they married at the Manse of the Congregational Minister in Sydney.
John Peter Burns was born in Illinois, USA.
Any help would be appreciated but I realise it is a long shot!
Dunscore
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: majm on Wednesday 13 October 21 04:55 BST (UK)
Hi,

Some questions if I may....

Does that d.c. show any details about his marriage to Agnes, if so, please confirm what is recorded on that transcription. 

How certain are you that the chap who died in 1942 had been previously married to Agnes?  Her grounds for divorce seem to show a serious flaw in his behaviour. 
 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230647603 Australian Star 29 August 1900
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230642841 Aust. Star 4 Sept 1900
Decree Absolute https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14360771 SMH 11 Oct 1900


JM
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: judb on Wednesday 13 October 21 05:13 BST (UK)
Parents' names are given for him on the NSW BMD index.  I'm assuming that you have these parent names from his birth or from his marriage?

 Death registered at Redfern. 1942 #29778
John Peter BURNS
Parents: Laurence, Catherine

Judith
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: cupoflife on Wednesday 13 October 21 09:10 BST (UK)
Wondering?... NSW marriages
60/1900 Margaret FLANAGAN and Thomas DUNN; Sydney
7281/1919 Margaret DUNN and John BYRNES; Sydney

The Daily Telegraph 28 Jun 1934 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/246444357
I, JOHN PETER BURNS, known as Byrnes, of American nationality, born at Illinois, and resident fifty-five years in Australia, now residing at 237a Henderson Road, Alexandria, intend to apply for naturalisation under the Nationality Act, 1920-30.

https://www.naa.gov.au/explore-collection
John Peter BURNS (BUYRNES) - Naturalization (can request a copy for a fee)
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: judb on Thursday 14 October 21 00:52 BST (UK)
Brilliant find, cupoflife!

Given the marriage for Margaret Flanagan to Thomas Dunn there's this birth which, perhaps, is the Theresa listed in John Burns death certificate.

NSW births
1910 #347, registered Sydney
Theresa M DUNN
only parent listed: Margaret

There are births and deaths for these female children which may fit with the two deceased children shown on that death certificate.
All registered Sydney, all with only mother shown - Margaret
Birth 1908 #31918 Margaret A DUNN
Death 1909 #145 Margaret A DUNN

Birth 1907 #20783 Mary M DUNN
Death 1907 #7479 Mary M DUNN

Speculation only: Perhaps Margaret had to wait for a divorce or the death of Thomas DUNN before she could marry John.  It would seem unlikely, given that no father is named for any of the children, that Thomas DUNN was their father??

Judith


Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 14 October 21 01:21 BST (UK)
Quite a lot of existing information on this thread last year

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=839715.msg7056655#msg7056655

Sue
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: dunscore on Tuesday 19 October 21 00:03 BST (UK)
Thank you for your replies.  My apologies, some info I sent was doubled up from last year.
John's mother was not born in the USA.  His parents names as shown on his Death Certificate were Laurence and Catherine.  There is no indication on the DC that he had been married previously, divorced or there had been a child born to that marriage.
The baby died aged 7 weeks and is buried in an unmarked grave at Rookwood, in an area that is now almost inaccessible.  It was originally for stillbirths and tiny babies who died.  I have been making enquiries re having a plaque made to at least acknowledge her existence.  This would have to be in a different area of Rookwood which is only for stillbirths and children.
John Burns address at time of his death was certainly 237a Henderson Rd. Alexandria.

I am not 100% sure that the John Peter Burns who died in 1942 was the one married to Agnes, but his DC would indicate that it was him.  His birth place shown as Illinois, same as his marriage cert.

Whether a descendant of Theresa Burns (assuming she has one) would know anything of John's previous marriage to Agnes, is probably doubtful anyway.  I hope he treated his second wife a lot better than he treated my Grandmother during their short marriage. It seemed that marriage (10 months) was doomed from the beginning, according to the Trove articles and the Divorce papers which I have!

Thanks again everyone.
Dunscore

Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: majm on Tuesday 19 October 21 00:32 BST (UK)
.....
The baby died aged 7 weeks and is buried in an unmarked grave at Rookwood, in an area that is now almost inaccessible.  It was originally for stillbirths and tiny babies who died.  I have been making enquiries re having a plaque made to at least acknowledge her existence.  This would have to be in a different area of Rookwood which is only for stillbirths and children.......

Violet BURNS grave is located in the Presbyterian section 6D_Zone A/#/3798 as per Rookwood's online Deceased Search.   https://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/deceased-search-engine

You may find a helpful pdf linked here: 
 (about page 54 of 74 of the pdf) http://catalogue.sag.org.au/attachments/31957/RookwoodSectionNotesAndMaps.pdf    ..... Section 6D
Section 6D has been divided into five parts: .....  Part 2 Graves 2389-3996 commences at the centre of Rows 33 & 34 and continues to
Row 50 alternate numbering.


ADD
I have posted info on the other thread, and I have asked for consideration to merge the two threads.

JM
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: majm on Tuesday 19 October 21 03:04 BST (UK)

I mention this as the Rookwood Cemetery's Old Presbyterian Section has the grave of Violet BURNS, the baby who succumbed in 1897.  I have posted the details for her grave location.  It is not a separate section just for stillbirths or babies.  There are graves in Old Presbyterian Zone 6D for male and female children, and for male and female adults.   The Zone is fairly easy to locate, and commences at the 'round about' corner of Barnet and Van Vorst Drive and is in a 'triangular' area back from that corner in a north-westerly direction.   

JM
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: majm on Tuesday 19 October 21 05:26 BST (UK)
.....

I also obtained a Transcript for a Catherine Burns who died 1927.  The informant to her death was her daughter Agnes.  Her religion was given as Church of England (whereas John's was shown as RC). 

Catherine's spouse was James Burns (same name as given on John's marriage to Agnes McDougall in 1896).  The children of the marriage of Catherine and James were Agnes, Clara and Ruby, Living and 1 male and 3 females deceased.

John died in Alexandria Municipality and Catherine in Redfern Municipality.

Is this mother and son and can anyone shed any light on John in particular?
.....

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16381844 SMH 20 April 1927, funeral announcements, her husband was James and he was alive and residing at 119 Pitt St Redfern, so she was a wife, mother and a grandmother.  No mention of a son in the announcements.

Sands Directories :  City of Sydney Archives ...  https://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/

JM
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: majm on Tuesday 19 October 21 05:36 BST (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245757241 Daily Tele 17 May 1927
Funeral announcements for Henry James BURNS.  There are seven announcements at that one link.  I think that may help further in eliminating Catherine as per 1927 d.c. 

JM
Title: Re: John Peter Burns
Post by: dunscore on Wednesday 20 October 21 04:27 BST (UK)
Hi MAJM,
Thank you for the information.  I contacted a chap at Rookwood a couple of weeks ago and he gave me the impression that I would have trouble finding the grave of baby Violet and that it would not be possible to have a plaque put above her remains, hence mentioning two areas where babies/young children have been buried.  I really think I do need to go out to Rookwood to look for myself, even though he sent me an aerial shot of the spot where Violet would have been buried and it did look very overgrown.
Thank you for the PDF too.  I have also had a look at that.
My next thing is to try and find the father of an earlier baby born to Agnes, this one outside of marriage! I will do this in a new post  with as much info as I have (thanks to a DNA close relative - previously unknown to me!!)
Dunscore