RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Ranolki on Wednesday 04 November 20 13:25 GMT (UK)
-
I am trying to trace someone who died in Australia but was apparently born in Birmingham in 1837. There is no trace of him whatsoever in England (people have used links to people with similar names/dob but haven't genuinely managed to locate this right one). I'm now trying a different direction. This was his obituary. If the Crimean war broke out in 1853 and he was already serving with the Fleet (ie aged 16), I'm wondering where and when he enlisted. Are there any type of records of this? And I seem to think (probably from the TV series Hornblower!) that a ship also carried soldiers as well as naval men. Could someone explain to me how these soldiers would have been described ie members of a military unit or the ship concerned?
-
Sorry I can't help with the military part of your question, but if you are looking for his birth or information about his parents, do you have his Australian death certificate? This may give his parent's names if known by the informant, how long in the colony etc.
Have you found him on the 1841 and 1851 English censuses?
Keep in mind that some obituaries are not wholly accurate as information is likely to have been provided by family members, so is dependent upon their knowledge.
It looks like you might need to pay someone to copy the records for you if they exist:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/crimean-war-records/
-
Thanks for that. No parents on his death cert unfortunately. He gives his father as William on his marriage cert but no real trace of him either. We have a family Bible where there is talk of him being born in St John's Parish Birmingham (there was no formal Parish called St Johns although there was a St John's church in Deritend). The conclusion is that all the Bible entries were done in one go so may not have been him filling them in and just speaking from memory of previous tales too. We can't see anything on the 1841 and 1851 census forms either. It's as if he suddenly came into being on his way to Australia and his career sounds somewhat "Boy's Own" although I'm not saying it isn't the truth, just odd that we can not find him anywhere! We've exhausted all the possibilities we can think of and thought Military records might be a good bet.
-
If he did serve in any of those campaigns it was under a different name. There are no Troths in the UK campaign medal rolls for that era.
In this cutting from another paper when he was 82, there is no mention of Crimean war service or of having been wounded: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/mediaui-viewer/tree/70078999/person/112104782302/media/11ce9d43-e67c-4d52-926f-6430770ba12e
It says he enlisted in the "Queen's Own" in 1857 and transferred to the 50th.
-
Thank you ShaunJ, that's exactly the detail we are looking for. I personally think he was running from something, probably WAS a Troth but not William Henry and gave himself an illustrious career to go with it. Who would have thought that he is potentially being found out so much later...
-
Someone has set me this but I'm not sure if this is giving clues or not...
-
It's definitely not that William H Trout. He was born 5 May 1833 and served with the Royal Navy until 1884.
-
Oh that's interesting! So if he had been awarded any medals (even if he didn't return to the UK), they would have been recorded? Did they have the equivalent of the basic service medal in those days which everyone would have had? It look more and more likely that he became someone else as he landed in NZ or Australia. Would having his exact dob give us any clues (I noticed you could tell me the dob of William Henry Trout...) I think he WAS a Troth (there are DNA links back to UK Troths but nothing very helpful), just not William Henry. Does your info give details of any other Troths who might fit please?
-
So if he had been awarded any medals (even if he didn't return to the UK), they would have been recorded?
Yes but as I said there are no Troths on the campaign medal rolls in that era (1855-1871)
Did they have the equivalent of the basic service medal in those days which everyone would have had?
No
Would having his exact dob give us any clues
This is something the navy recorded but not the army.
Does your info give details of any other Troths who might fit please?
There was a Private William Troth (753) with the depot battalion of 56th regiment at Colchester in 1861 according to muster rolls but I can't see him on the census. No other records found for this soldier.
-
So if he had been awarded any medals (even if he didn't return to the UK), they would have been recorded?
Yes but as I said there are no Troths on the campaign medal rolls in that era (1855-1871)
Did they have the equivalent of the basic service medal in those days which everyone would have had?
No
Would having his exact dob give us any clues
This is something the navy recorded but not the army.
Does your info give details of any other Troths who might fit please?
There was a Private William Troth (653) with the depot battalion of 56th regiment at Colchester in 1861 according to muster rolls (which have been indexed for the time of the 1861 census) but I can't see him on the census. No other records found for this soldier.
-
Oh that's an interesting lead, I'll see where that goes. We were about to do a compare of the 1841 and 1851 census forms for all male Troths born 1837 and thereabouts and see if we are left with any who don't appear in 1861 (taking into account deaths etc) and try to work out which ones they were and where they disappeared to. According to his own version he would have left the UK prior to 1861. There are only about 25 in 1841 so it's not too big a job.
As I said, DNA from Australia suggests he probably WAS a Troth but we are still not convinced he arrived in Australia via any military service. On the other hand I can't see him (as W H Troth anyway) in any transportee records either...
-
Even more interesting is that he IS on that 1861 census, born in Oxfordshire, living at Colchester Barrack. There is an 1851 census entry too, showing his father as Edmund, born in Sidemoor (Bromsgrove) which is exactly where DNA places the Australia descendants he has. It looks as if he may have just added in the Henry to his name and changed his father's name too. More investigation I believe! Thanks you so much for that lead!
-
Good evening,3
His obituary is very interesting particularly his military service. He claims to have been at Alma and Balaklava. That means he had to have been in one of the following regts to have fought at both places.
The Light Brigade consisting of; 4th Light Dragoons, 8th Hussars, 11th Hussars, 13th Light Dragoons and 17th Lancers. Or the 93rd Foot (Sutherlands). However, although the light brigade were present at Alma I don't believe they engaged the enemy. They would have been at a great disadvantage fighting across the river then uphill. Need to look at my regt'l history but it's in the attic.
93rd fought at Alma and were the thin red line at Balaklava, the first engagement of the day. As the Russian cavalry turned away they were hit by the heavy brigade and routed, second engagement of the day. This was followed later in the day by the charge of the light brigade. Third and most famous engagement of the day.
His wound seems very reminiscent of Nelsons wound at Trafalger. At that time I doubt he would have survived such a wound, It would have passed through a lung and other organs.
As to later fighting in the China war and the Maori war. I don't know much about the China war but there were 3 Maori wars. First 1845/47, the 58th Foot,65th Foot, 80th Foot, 96th Foot and 99th Foot were all in NZ at that time or part of. the other two wars were 6o/61 and 66/68 so after he supposedly went to Australia. China war was 1860 so a conflict of dates and further regt's involved.
So the 93rd would be the most likely place to start searching for him.
John915
-
Hi researcher of William Troth. Have found your messages & replies very interesting.
We are hoping to find further info regarding our GG Grandfather - Pte Joseph Trotman who served with the 50th Regiment (Queens Own) in Ceylon & then New Zealand in the Maori War from 1863.The HMSS Himalaya arrived in Auckland NZ on the 15th Nov 1863.During this campaign the men of the 50th Regiment were under the command of Colonel Richard Waddy. It appears that Colonel Waddy was very well respected by the Regiment. New Zealand has a list of the Regiment's men who settled in New Zealand.
The Himalaya returned to Sydney from Auckland NZ in 1866 carrying the Right Wing of the 50th Regiment. It appears they then served as Garrisons at Victoria Barracks, Paddington NSW. They finally left Sydney for England in March 1869.Although Colonel Richard Waddy went on to other battles, he lived & died in NSW.(originally from Ireland) A small number of the Reg chose to settle in NSW, Australia. Have not been able to find a list of those who stayed. Have one piece of evidence that shows our ancestor to still be in Sydney in 1870 which is after the Regiment had returned to England. No other info after that date. Although this info does not directly relate to your search it may throw up some leads.