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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: Hwby on Friday 06 November 20 08:16 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I've hit a problem in finding and identifying these people. Turns out there are an awful lot of Donald and Jean McPhails in Campbeltown in the 19th Century!
My ancestor Charlotte McPhail married Henry (Harry) Dickson in Wishaw, Lanarkshire, in Nov 1866. Her parents are listed as being Daniel McPhail, farmer, deceased, and Jane McPhail, ms McPhail, also deceased.
Charlotte and Henry appear in the censuses with her birthplace as Inverary, Argyleshire. I've found a parish record for a Charlotte Brodie McPhail, born to a Donald McPhail, flesher, and Jean McPhail.
The death register for Charlotte Brodie Dickson in 1982 (aged 47), again lists her parents as Donald McPhail, flesher, and Jean McPhail, both deceased. She died back in Campbeltown, though the informant was her son, David Dickson, still living in Wishaw.
I found on FindAGrave a stone erected by Donald McPhail, flesher, and his wife Jean McPhail for their son Charles S., who died aged 3 in 1847, and added to by their son Donald Jnr for his children and wife. Two Charlottes are on the stone, but both died as children, and I think are Donald Jnr's daughters. Mum and Dad McPhail don't look to be on this stone.
I believe my Donald and Jean McPhail both died before 1851 - Charlotte McPhail appears on the 1851 census at five years old as living with another family of McPhails, head Alexander, and is listed as his niece with occupation "orphant", which I'm assuming is "orphan". It ties in with both parents being dead by her marriage, and by her relatively young death.
I believe the "Daniel" and farmer occupation for father on her marriage certificate is an error - either she was young when they died and she couldn't remember, or it was heard and written down incorrectly. As Donald, with occupation of flesher, appears on her death cert and birth record, I feel fairly confident that it's the same Donald and Jean as on the above headstone, and the Charles and Donald Jnr. listed on it are her brothers.
I get stuck here, though. I can find no death record nor headstone for Donald and Jean McPhail. I'm not sure why Charlotte would move from Campbelltown to Wishaw, and seemingly back again just before she died. I've tried variations on Jean/Jane/Jeanie and the various iterations of McPhail, but keep coming up blank for these two. I've started to wonder if they perhaps emigrated, leaving the children behind, and either died abroad or were just listed as dead because that's what Charlotte thought.
Would really appreciate any ideas or hints someone may have... I've been scratching my head over this!
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Correction: I sat she died in 1982... no, it was 1882!
Also realised that "Mum and Dad McPhail don't look to be on this stone." is unclear. I mean to say the stone doesn't record them as being buried there.
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Deaths pre 1855 were seldom recorded.
Have you found Charlotte in 1861?
As she was described as an orphan in 1851 & her parents were both deceased when she married, does appear to be correct.
My mother was an 'orphan' aged 6/7 yrs old i.e. both her parents were deceased.
Annie
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The names Donald and Daniel are used interchangeably in Scotland, so a Daniel who fits the bill in every other respect is likely to be the right one.
The baptism of Charlotte Brodie McPhail, parents Donald McPhail and Jean McPhail, on 10 August 1845 in Campbeltown, is on Scotland's People. Donald McPhail and Jean McPhail were married in Campbeltown on 4 July 1835.
There is a family at Old Quayhead, Campbeltown, in the 1841 census consisting of Donald McPhail, flesher, 30; Jean McPhail, 29; John McPhail, 4; Jean McPhail, 3; Donald McPhail, 1; and Mary McPhail, 15, female servant.
There are baptisms of six other children of Donald and Jean besides Charlotte
John, 8 July 1836
Jane, 13 February 1838
Donald, 9 January 1840
Archibald, 30 December 1841
Charles Stewart, 29 December 1843
James, 7 July 1847.
In 1851 John McPhail, 14 and Jean McPhail, 13, were in the household of Dunn McMillan, butcher, 34, and his wife Mary, 33, in Campbeltown, described as nephew and niece. Donald McPhail, 10, and James McPhail, 4 are with their grandparents Archibald McPhail, 77 and Jane McPhail, 78, at Mill Know, Campbeltown. Archibald McPhail, 8, and Charlotte McPhail, 5, are both in the household of their uncle Alexander McPhail at Drumgarie, Campbeltown.
So it looks as if the children were parcelled out to relatives, which does imply that the parents had died, and the description of both Archibald and Charlotte as orphans clinches it.
Therefore the parents must have died between James' conception in 1846 and the date of the 1851 census. Take a look at James' baptism and see if it says that his father was still alive when he was born/baptised. As this is before the start of civil registration there may not be any record of their deaths. It is possible, if there was a cemetery other than the parish kirkyard in Campbeltown, that there might be a burial record. If so, then Argyll and Bute Council should have that information.
As for why Charlotte might have moved to Wishaw, she probably moved to get work. John, Donald, Archibald and James were all still in Campbeltown in 1861, so presumably she returned there to visit them.
In 1861 she was living with her aunt Margaret Cameron, 50, farmer's wife, and (presumably) grandmother Jean McPhail, 80, farmer's widow, at Millknowe, Campbeltown.
Henry and Charlotte Dickson are in the 1871 census in the parish of Dalziel and in the 1881 census in Cambusnethan. According to the transcription I am looking at, the 1871 says her birthplace was Argyllshire and the 1881 says it was Campbeltown. Where did you get Inveraray from?
By viewing the death certificates of the aunts, uncles and grandmother you should be able to find out indirectly who Charlotte's grandparents were. You should also look at the originals of all the relevant census because you must never trust anything you find online (and that includes what I tell you) unless it's an image of an original document, and even then be wary.
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Hi both, thanks for the replies!
Annie, thanks for letting me know deaths were seldom recorded - it puts my mind at ease that I'm not just missing something obvious or have a wrong name. I do have Charlotte in the 1861 census, though the family she was living with seems to have split up by that point. Poor girl must have had a hard time of it!
Forfarian, I really appreciate the comprehensive reply. It squares up with the theories I've been working with, though you've managed to catch where these siblings have ended up whereas I was missing them. I hadn't realised Daniel and Donald were interchangeable, so that's another bonus. Inveraray comes from a certificate somewhere, though I struggle to pinpoint it exactly... I was born in England and all my family stayed in the Wishaw area (where Charlotte ended up), so I'm very unfamiliar with Argyll. Careless assumption on my part that Inveraray must be in the same region as Campbeltown!
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I'm very unfamiliar with Argyll. Careless assumption on my part that Inveraray must be in the same region as Campbeltown!
Inveraray and Campbeltown are both in the same county, Argyll, but they are 75 miles apart.
Whether or not they are in the same region depends on how you define a region. They were both, of course, in the subsequently abolished Strathclyde Region.
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The plot has thickened...
Charlotte and Archibald are living with Alexander and Margaret McPhail in 1851, listed as niece and nephew. Archibald's year of birth is off by about two years, but I suppose an aunt and uncle could be unsure of when exactly a nephew was born. Margaret is listed as the wife of Alexander. Their children's birth records give mother's maiden name as Andrew, so Alexander must be brother to either one of Donald (Charlotte's dad) or Jean (Charlotte's mum).
Unfortunately, I can find no uncle Alexander in the birth records - neither Donald nor Jean seem to have had a brother born called Alexander.
When Charlotte appears in the 1861 census with Margaret McPhail [Margaret Cameron] (both names on the census), there's the addition of Jean, mother to Margaret. The birth year in this census of ~1811 doesn't square with the year of birth for Jean (Charlotte's mum) sister Margaret, born in 1799, though I do find a Margaret that married a Neill Cameron. Jean's year of birth is out by about three years.
I got a copy of the 1961 census page in case the transcription was incorrect - Margaret definitely gives her age as 50.
So, it means I have two problems here. The Uncle Alexander that I can find no record of being born - though the 1851 census gives his place of birth being Campbeltown and year of birth ~1800, there were no Alexander McPhails (or variations thereof) born in the area at that time. I even extended to between 1790 and 1810 - nothing.
The Margaret problem I think may possibly be Charlotte moved to live with a different Aunt Margaret in 1861, though that doesn't explain where the Margaret McPhail in Uncle Alexander's house disappeared to. 1861 Margaret married Neill Campbell in 1823, so it can't have been a case of divorcing Alexander and moving in with a new husband.
For the above Alexander issue, I can only think that either his birth wasn't recorded, or he wasn't baptised as Alexander. His marriage to Margaret Andrew is listed as having taken place in Southend.
For the Aunt Margaret issue, I can only think that 1961 Margaret is a different Margaret to that Charlotte's living with 1851, and she mistook/lied about her age, knocking off ten years and getting mother Jean's slightly wrong. I don't know where the husband is, as he doesn't seem to be dead (she's a 'farmer's wife' rather than widow) - perhaps on a farm. This census was taken in early April, but I don't know enough about farming if that would require all hands on deck for sowing or harvesting.
I've ended up out of my depth here... sorry for the wall of text! To be honest, part of this was just me trying to get things straight in my head, but if anyone fancies a gander and challenge, I'd be very happy to hear any ideas! :o
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I think the 1st thing to do is to check the address of both 1851 & 1861 unless the family had moved?
You haven't given addresses but those can be checked on the VRs (Valuation Rolls) on SP although only the tenant/occupier is listed but the index may help once you check the census'?
Annie
Add...Not all baptism records have survived although following on from census' to death may help?
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I think the 1st thing to do is to check the address of both 1851 & 1861 unless the family had moved?
You haven't given addresses but those can be checked on the VRs (Valuation Rolls) on SP although only the tenant/occupier is listed but the index may help once you check the census'?
Annie
Add...Not all baptism records have survived although following on from census' to death may help?
Ah, sorry, I've not been too sure about how to use valuation rolls to assist in research (and I've already spent so much money on SP I've been put off trying to use them!).
The 1851 census has the address as "Drumgard" - the closest I can find to this in the VR is Alex MacPhail, 1955, Drumgoubh, but nothing else. In 1861 Charlotte's address is Mill Knowe. I can't find anything pertaining to Charlotte, Margaret, or Jean in the VR at Mill Knowe, but I do have Jean's death register from 1864, which gives her place of death as "Millknow, Campbeltown" - so I feel pretty sure this is the same Jean McPhail.
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The VRs only list the main Tenant/Occupier Owner/Occupier, not children/lodgers etc. i.e. the 'Head' of house in the census' would seem most likely.
It was Alexander & Margaret McPhail you weren't sure about re who Charlotte was living with 1851/1861
If Alexander was still alive in 1861, regardless of where he was on census night, his name should be on the VRs i.e. is the address on those census' different i.e. area of Campbeltown?
Which area is given for "Drumgard"?
Annie
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The VRs only list the main Tenant/Occupier Owner/Occupier, not children/lodgers etc. i.e. the 'Head' of house in the census' would seem most likely.
It was Alexander & Margaret McPhail you weren't sure about re who Charlotte was living with 1851/1861
If Alexander was still alive in 1861, regardless of where he was on census night, his name should be on the VRs i.e. is the address on those census' different i.e. area of Campbeltown?
Which area is given for "Drumgard"?
Annie
Hi Annie,
There's no area for Drumgard - that's literally all the 'address' says. I thought it might be a farm, but I've not found it if it is. There's no Drumgard I can find in the VR, either.
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I'm hopeless with maps & could only find Millknowe Road...
Is there a house number on the Millknowe census entry?
Another way of checking, not always with success but is to check the neighbors on both census' which can often help.
I've had census records with different entries but the same place.
What I was asking was, are both addresses in Campbeltown?
Annie
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I'm hopeless with maps & could only find Millknowe Road...
Is there a house number on the Millknowe census entry?
Another way of checking, not always with success but is to check the neighbors on both census' which can often help.
I've had census records with different entries but the same place.
Annie
I've seen on 19th Century OS maps there seems to be an area called Mill know, just off where today's Millknow Road is - the area that now seems to be called Calton. Looking at the OS map, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of housing there, so no road per se to have an address.
But I don't understand maps very well!
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Ok, how were the neighbours listed in terms of address?
Have you looked at the header of both census' which may help?
I also forgot we were in 1851 & VRs start in 1855 ::)
Annie
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"MILLKNOWE ROAD [Campbeltown] A street or road, extending from End of Longrow Street to Mill Knowe; And continuation of Longrow Street"
Scroll down here...
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/argyll-os-name-books-1868-1878/argyll-volume-78/74
We were in the right place with maps but reading it is clearer I think?
Annie
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With reference to Drumgard, could this be a misheard "Drumgarve" which was a farm to the west of Peninver, just north of Cambeltown.
If you follow the Lussa Water upstream from its mouth at Ardnacross Bay, Drumgarve (Drumgarbh?) lies on the north bank very close to the eastern edge of the attached map. (https://maps.nls.uk/view/74427530)][url](https://maps.nls.uk/view/74427530) (http://[url)[/url].
You may also find this Kintyre site of interest (http://www.ralstongenealogy.com/kintyreplaces.htm) (http://(http://www.ralstongenealogy.com/kintyreplaces.htm))
Istrice
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Margaret McPhail or Cameron, mother's suranem McLean, died in Campbeltown in 1869 aged 68.
Margaret McPhail, daughter of Archibald McPhail and Jean McLean, was baptised in Campbeltown on 22 October 1799. So it looks fairly certain that this is Charlotte's aunt Margaret Cameron with whom she was living in 1861.
Archibald McPhail and Jean McLean were married on 24 January 1797 and also had
Mary, baptised 17 April 1797 (no mother's name given but probably their firstborn)
James, baptised 1 November 1801
John, baptised 24 September 1807
Archibald, baptised 17 December 1809
Jean, baptised 19 March 1812
Mary, baptised 2 March 1815
Donald, baptised 13 May 1818
Jean, baptised on 19 March 1812, would have been exactly 29 on the day of the 1841 census, and that is the age of Charlotte's mother recorded in the 1841 census. So I think it's pretty well certain that Charlotte's maternal grandparents were Archibald McPhail and Jean McLean.
Archibald McPhail, aged 80, died at Millknow on 7 May 1856, parents Robert McPhail and Margaret Milloy, who will be Charlotte's great-grandparents.
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In 1851 Charlotte's eldest brother and sister were in the household of Dunn McMillan, butcher, aged 34, and his wife Mary. Their children are Janet, 10; Archibald, 8; Jane, 7; Mary, 4; Dunn, 2; and Margaret under 1 year.
These match the children of Duncan McMillan and Mary McPhail, married 2 July 1840
Janet, baptised 18 April 1841
Archibald, 3 July 1842
Jane, 14 April 1844
Mary, 6 September 1846
Duncan, 17 December 1848
Margaret, 3 November 1850
and there are two later children,
James Alexander, 24 July 1854
Barbara, born 22 November 1856
In 1861 Mary's age is given as 44, which is a year or so out, but close enough for her to have been another sister of Charlotte's mother.
It looks as if Duncan might be the son of Duncan McMillan and Janet Armour, baptised 5 April 1815. However I have not found Duncan and family in 1871 or later, and I have not found likely deaths, so perhaps, unlike Donald and Jean, perhaps Duncan and Mary did emigrate.
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I've seen on 19th Century OS maps there seems to be an area called Mill know, just off where today's Millknow Road is - the area that now seems to be called Calton. Looking at the OS map, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of housing there, so no road per se to have an address.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.42918&lon=-5.61058&layers=5&b=1 from the map surveyed in 1869.
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Hi all,
Thanks for all the help - with people, maps, and so on. I'm starting to develop a picture now, which is very nice. Istrice - you were right with the "Drumgarve" suggestion. Looking at a copy of the actual census pages, "Drumgard" is a transcription error.
I've certainly been able to pad out the family, both sideways and up, so that's great. I am, unfortunately, still stuck on who on earth 1851 Uncle Alexander is. If I'm right that this is Alexander McPhail who married Margaret Andrew, she's a different Margaret to whom Charlotte's living with in 1851, and Alexander must be the biological uncle. However, Dad Donald's baptism has his parents given as John MacPhail and Isobell MacIsaac, who I can only find four children for - Donald, John, Margaret, and Mary.
I thought perhaps Uncle Alexander is actually a great-uncle, But I can't find any Alexander McPhail births that fit the time and place. So who is he?(!)
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Only about a third of events (BMDs) were registered pre the start of official registration from 1855. You are always lucky really if you are able to find something in these years.
Alexander McPhail is still showing (widowed?) in 1861. He was farming substantial land of 900 acres at Drumgaire Farm (as indexed). Why not look for his death registration to confirm his parents' names (if know to his informant for his death)?
He was still showing as born c. 1800 in Southend, Argyllshire.
Monica
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It looks as if Alexander McPhail, who was married to Margaret Andrew, must have left the area. He is listed at Drumgarve in 1861 as a 60-year-old widower, born Southend, with four daughters, two sons and two nephews, one of who is Charlotte's brother Archibald, I think, and the other James McPhail, 18, visitor, born Ireland.
I can't find Margaret Andrew's death so she presumably died before 1855. Nor can I find Alexander's death, or a census listing, obvious marriage or death for his son David McPhail.
Alexander gave his age in 1841 as 42, in 1841 as 51 and in 1861 as 60, so he's inconsistent. There is a gap in the family of Archibald McPhail and Jean McLean between James in 1801 and John in 1807, so he could have fitted in that gap.
On the other hand he named his eldest son David, and he was born in Southend, not in Campbeltown.
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To add to Forfarian's notes on the McMillan family ealier. Possible entry for Duncan McMillar in Alexander McPhail's household for 1841:
Alexr Mcphail 42 farmer
Margret Mcphail 35
Elisabeth Mcphail 14
Jean Mcphail 13
Mary Mcphail 10
Margret Mcphail 8
David Mcphail 6
Hellen Mcphail 4
Duncan McMillan 20
John Mccallum 23
Prudence Darmid 16
Address: Achanelary, Southend
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The closest possible death I saw for Alexander was this one:
ALEXANDER MCPHAIL
age 86
1886
523/ 11
Kilmore and Kilbride
I haven't checked through the 1871/81 census to eliminated this one.
Monica
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....there is also this www.findagrave.com/memorial/53435633/alexander-mcphail
Monica
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You may also find this Kintyre site of interest (http://www.ralstongenealogy.com/kintyreplaces.htm) (http://(http://www.ralstongenealogy.com/kintyreplaces.htm))
Istrice
From Istrice's earlier link, have a look at www.ralstongenealogy.com/breckenridgediary.htm
From the info on Alexander McPhail's family on Find a Grave, his daughter Ellen McPhail looks to have married Hugh Breckenridge www.findagrave.com/memorial/26896132/ellen-breckenridge This helps in making sense of the McPhail & Dungarve Farm references on Diary pages of 'breckenridgediary'.
Monica
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From here www.findagrave.com/memorial/206174486/archibald-mcphail
Alexander was the son of Robert McPhail and Margaret Milloy. He died at Milknow. He was buried in Kilchenzie Church yard as certified by his son Alexander McPhail.
Apart from the mistake that Alexander should read Archibald, easy enough to confirm this by checking Archibald's death reg on SP.
Added: See also https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/McPhail-762
Monica
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www.findagrave.com/memorial/206174604/jean-mcphail
Some errors here. Jean died as showing in 1864 at Millknow. From her death reg that a family researcher has included online, her parents were actually Donald McLean, farmer, and Jean Stewart.
Monica
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The closest possible death I saw for Alexander was this one:
ALEXANDER MCPHAIL
age 86
1886
523/ 11
Kilmore and Kilbride
I haven't checked through the 1871/81 census to eliminated this one.
Monica
There is an Alexander McPhail, aged 80, born Kilmore, in the Lorn Combination Poorhouse in Oban in the 1881 census. Oban is in the parish of Kilmore and Kilbride. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be an earlier listing of an Alexander M(a)cPhail in Kilmore and Kilbride. So I took a look at the death certificate. He was unmarried.
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www.findagrave.com/memorial/206174604/jean-mcphail
Some errors here. Jean died as showing in 1864 at Millknow. From her death reg that a family researcher has included online, her parents were actually Donald McLean, farmer, and Jean Stewart.
Indeed. At least we now know that Alexander did indeed emigrate.
But can we trust the FindAGrave submitter, who got Jean McLean's parents' names wrong, to have got the right parents for Alexander?
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Hi all,
Thanks for that - I had come across several of these graves, but hadn't been able to piece them together. I had dismissed the McPhails in Illinois, as I had assumed a farmer in his sixties wouldn't have made the long trip from Scotland to Illinois, but it seems as though Uncle Alexander did! That'll teach me for making assumptions.
I'm wary of just using book sources, but it seems to fit. Winnebago County does have its microfilm records of death certificates from the era online to view, but is only in "rough" alphabetical order. I may take a while and see if I can't find Alexander's certificate hiding somewhere in these records, which should confirm things.
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In the 1880 census of Guilford, Winnebago County, Illinois, are Alexander McPhail, 80; daughter Elizabeth, 53; and son David, 45; and son Alexander, 34; all born in Scotland.
Not seeing them in 1870.
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In the 1880 census of Guilford, Winnebago County, Illinois, are Alexander McPhail, 80; daughter Elizabeth, 53; and son David, 45; and son Alexander, 34; all born in Scotland.
Not seeing them in 1870.
Believe I have them in 1870 under 'McPhiel'!
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Alexander McPhail and some of the children left Glasgow for the US, arriving at New York on 9 June 1866 on the 'Hibernia'.
Alexander 64 (indexed on A+/try as Aleac)
David 29
Elizabeth 35
Margaret 22
Ellen 20
At a guess, maybe some of his sons had already headed off before them to settle there.
Monica
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From here www.findagrave.com/memorial/206174486/archibald-mcphail
Alexander was the son of Robert McPhail and Margaret Milloy. He died at Milknow. He was buried in Kilchenzie Church yard as certified by his son Alexander McPhail.
You might consider viewing Archibald's death ref to confirm details on informant as above. For Jean McLean McPhail's death reg, the informant was a MacDonald newphew.
Monica
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Alexander McPhail and some of the children left Glasgow for the US, arriving at New York on 9 June 1866 on the 'Hibernia'.
Alexander 64 (indexed on A+/try as Aleac)
David 29
Elizabeth 35
Margaret 22
Ellen 20
At a guess, maybe some of his sons had already headed off before them to settle there.
Monica
I was looking for the ship but coming up dry (ba dum tsh), thank you!
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Hmmm. Jean McLean or McPhail had half a dozen siblings, including Helen b 1782. A Helen McLean married an Angus Macdonald in 1809. I wonder if that could be the parents of the nephew who registered Jean's death?