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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Boxeo on Wednesday 11 November 20 17:29 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Could someone please give me a hand reading this.. ???
Thanks
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I think I have this right
The Marriage was on the 4th July 1868 between
Michael Bergen of Low Downs, son of ? Darbi and Elizabeth [Bergen] married to Bridget Burns, daughter of John & Catherine Devlin.
Witnesses, Martin Gorham and Maria Tymon.
Officiating priest was Joseph Aloysius Browne.
I'm uncertain of the meaning of (ib) after the bride's name.
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I'm uncertain of the meaning of (ib) after the bride's name.
Just remembered, it's an abbreviation of 'ibidem' which means 'in the same place', i.e. she was also from Low Downs.
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I think I have this right
The Marriage was on the 4th July 1868 between
Michael Bergen of Low Downs, son of ? Darbi and Elizabeth [Bergen] married to Bridget Burns, daughter of John & Catherine Devlin.
Witnesses, Martin Gorham and Maria Tymon.
Officiating priest was Joseph Aloysius Browne.
I'm uncertain of the meaning of (ib) after the bride's name.
Thank you very much, I assume that means Michael was from County Down, Ireland?
I found a census where Bridget has put her birthplace as County Armagh but looks like they're right next to each other so could make sense.
Her name shows as Burns but parents Devlin.. Why do you think this would be?
Thank you
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Thank you very much, I assume that means Michael was from County Down, Ireland?
No, it's where he was living at the time. Low Downs was a place in County Durham.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=54.83249&lon=-1.44745&layers=6&right=BingHyb
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Thank you very much, I assume that means Michael was from County Down, Ireland?
No, it's where he was living at the time. Low Downs was a place in County Durham.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=54.83249&lon=-1.44745&layers=6&right=BingHyb
Ah. Thank you
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Her name shows as Burns but parents Devlin.. Why do you think this would be?
Presumably she’d been married previously. Have you got the civil marriage certificate, which would show if she was a widow?
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Her name shows as Burns but parents Devlin.. Why do you think this would be?
Presumably she’d been married previously. Have you got the civil marriage certificate, which would show if she was a widow?
Unfortunately that's all I have, someone else has mentioned that Burns might have been her dad's surname but her mum remarried to Devlin, so could be her step father. ???
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Did they have children?
GRO records would show her surname.
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Michael died and Bridget remarried a Thomas Mcguire.
On the birth of their children her maiden surname given as Devlin
See
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840086.msg7060130#msg7060130
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Hi Jen,
Yes I found that a few minutes ago with some contributions from me which I find quite hard to fathom now. ;)
I think it establishes that Bridget was Devlin.
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Thank you both. Their child Mary Bergin would be my 3rd great grandmother, shows her mum's maiden name as Devlin so think that comes for me it's the right person
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=827184.msg6911329#msg6911329
Also gives details of other children mmn Devlin.
Also, from that thread you already knew that she married as Burns, father’s surname Devlin :-\
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=827184.msg6911329#msg6911329
Also gives details of other children mmn Devlin.
Also, from that thread you already knew that she married as Burns, father’s surname Devlin :-\
Yeah, been going round in circles with it all for a long time and came back to it forgetting where I was!
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If it was me I’d buy the 1868 marriage certificate.
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Me too :)
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Hi Jen,
Yes I found that a few minutes ago with some contributions from me which I find quite hard to fathom now. ;)
I think it establishes that Bridget was Devlin.
Sorry this is the thread I had found - re Ireland
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=828923.
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If it was me I’d buy the 1868 marriage certificate.
Yeah, I think I'll contact the local council for that then. Do I just have the registration?
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Do I just have the registration?
Sorry, I'm not clear what you mean.
You can purchase the certificate online via either Sunderland Registrars
https://www.sunderland.gov.uk/article/12356/Copies-of-birth-death-and-marriage-certificates
or the GRO https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
in either case it costs £11.00.
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Do I just have the registration?
Sorry, I'm not clear what you mean.
You can purchase the certificate online via either Sunderland Registrars
https://www.sunderland.gov.uk/article/12356/Copies-of-birth-death-and-marriage-certificates
or the GRO https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
in either case it costs £11.00.
I assumed I had the marriage certificate already, would this be different then?
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I assumed I had the marriage certificate already, would this be different then?
Do you mean the document you reproduced at the start of this thread?
That isn't the marriage certificate. That simply the parish record made by the priest at the Roman Catholic Church where they married.
The full civil certificate should show whether or not Bridget was a widow at the time of the marriage
so might explain the discrepancy between her surname at marriage and that of her father.
https://www.hdfhs.org.uk/bmd-certificate-guide/ scroll down the page a bit to marriage certificates.
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I assumed I had the marriage certificate already, would this be different then?
Do you mean the document you reproduced at the start of this thread?
That isn't the marriage certificate. That simply the parish record made by the priest at the Roman Catholic Church where they married.
The full civil certificate should show whether or not Bridget was a widow at the time of the marriage
so might explain the discrepancy between her surname at marriage and that of her father.
https://www.hdfhs.org.uk/bmd-certificate-guide/ scroll down the page a bit to marriage certificates.
Ahh okay, thanks for your help, appreciate it.
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It would also show if Michael was a widower and if he is the chap with the children in 1871 -and then linked to the Irish records.
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It would also show if Michael was a widower and if he is the chap with the children in 1871 -and then linked to the Irish records.
So, don't hesitate, buy it ;D
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Thanks both. I've ordered it.
I also ordered what I think is Michael's death certificate hoping it would give his address or mention Bridget. No luck ::)
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He was working at South Pontop Colliery when he died, http://www.dmm.org.uk/individ0/i05087.htm
so he'd have been living in the Annfield Plain area https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=54.85787&lon=-1.74811&layers=6&right=BingHyb
(trivia moment :-X my father was born just over the road from South Pontop Colliery)
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He was working at South Pontop Colliery when he died, http://www.dmm.org.uk/individ0/i05087.htm
so he'd have been living in the Annfield Plain area https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=54.85787&lon=-1.74811&layers=6&right=BingHyb
(trivia moment :-X my father was born just over the road from South Pontop Colliery)
Actually that does help confirm what I have a bit, I have census records showing they had a child born in 1876 in Annfield Plain so that would make sense! Thanks ;D
I've never even been to the North East but have quite a lot of ancestors from up that way.
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I've never even been to the North East
You haven’t lived ;D
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Haha, one day ;D
Just looking at that 1871 census again with Michael and children on, it's in Kyo which appears to be right next to Annfield Plain. His child Jeremiah is still down on the same residence in 1881 but Michael isn't on there which would make sense if he died in 1876. Starting to think it's definitely the same Michael. Jeremiah appears to have been born in Queens County, Ireland.
Only thing that confuses me is that Michael married Bridget in 1868, why wouldn't he be living with her in 71 ???
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I think I gave you Irish records for that family in your other thread.
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Haha, one day ;D
Annfield Plain has changed out of all recognition within relatively recent memory. In the 1950's the pits were still working. The huge pit heaps of Pontop Colliery were behind my grandparents' house. Now there is no sign that they ever existed.
Only thing that confuses me is that Michael married Bridget in 1868, why wouldn't he be living with her in 71 ???
The census only recorded where everyone was on that one night. The fact that she doesn't appear to be in the household doesn't imply at all that she wasn't living with him. She was just somewhere else on that night, the problem is where was she?
Yes, Kyo is pretty close to A.P.
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To make it easier for anyone else looking at this thread, here is Michael (without Bridget) in 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB83-5X4
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I think I gave you Irish records for that family in your other thread.
Thanks. I think when I first read it I was a bit lost but it makes more sense to me now. I think you could be right with it.
The kids Michael is with in the 1871 census are called Jeremiah and Eliza. Could be that he named them after his parents, Darby (Jeremiah) and Betty/Elizabeth
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Here is previous post - reply #3
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=828923.msg6931460#msg6931460
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Marriage certificate just arrived.
Both widowers. So that explains it!
Michael's Bergin's dad was Daniel Bergin.
Bridget Burns' dad was John Devlin.
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Both widowers. So that explains it!
Told you so :P Well done, mystery solved!
By the way, I have searched as best I can for Bridget in 1871 and can't find anything remotely convincing.
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Both widowers. So that explains it!
Told you so :P Well done, mystery solved!
By the way, I have searched as best I can for Bridget in 1871 and can't find anything remotely convincing.
Really appreciate your efforts!
Strange isn't it, can't think why that would be ???
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That is really good news. :)
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Could this be Bridget in 1871?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDDY-T76
Annie
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Could this be Bridget in 1871?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDDY-T76
Annie
Interesting.. Thanks
Her age would be different to what I have but not impossible, ages seem to change a lot on records ;D
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Is there an address for her on the marriage certificate?
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Is there an address for her on the marriage certificate?
Caroline Street, Hetton-Le-Hole
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Could this be Bridget in 1871?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDDY-T76
Annie
Interesting.. Thanks
Her age would be different to what I have but not impossible, ages seem to change a lot on records ;D
Maybe share what her possible/probable yob is from the info. you have to help with searches rather than us having to guess & do you know if she was born in Ireland or elsewhere?
Annie
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Boxeo, what was her age on the marriage certificate? How does this match up with her age as given on other censuses (where you've managed to find her?)
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The marriage certificate from 1868 shows her as 28. The census from 1881 has her age 37, 1901 56 and 1911 she's 70.
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The marriage certificate from 1868 shows her as 28. The census from 1881 has her age 37, 1901 56 and 1911 she's 70.
Pensions were introduced in Britain in 1909 for eligible old people. Applicants had to provide proof of age. Many Irish people found out their real age for the first time.
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From the ages given at different times, Bridget was born anywhere between c 1840 - 1846 which isn't bad compared with others I've seen
Can you tell us where she was born from each of those census' please?
Annie
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The marriage certificate from 1868 shows her as 28. The census from 1881 has her age 37, 1901 56 and 1911 she's 70.
Pensions were introduced in Britain in 1909 for eligible old people. Applicants had to provide proof of age. Many Irish people found out their real age for the first time.
Wow, that's interesting. Thanks. What was the reason for them not knowing, do you think?
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From the ages given at different times, Bridget was born anywhere between c 1840 - 1846 which isn't bad compared with others I've seen
Can you tell us where she was born from each of those census' please?
Annie
Most of them say Ireland but 1911 says County Armagh, Ireland.
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The marriage certificate from 1868 shows her as 28. The census from 1881 has her age 37, 1901 56 and 1911 she's 70.
Pensions were introduced in Britain in 1909 for eligible old people. Applicants had to provide proof of age. Many Irish people found out their real age for the first time.
Wow, that's interesting. Thanks. What was the reason for them not knowing, do you think?
Knowing one's age wasn't important. An adult may have been asked his or her age only a few times in adulthood e.g. marriage, census, emigration, perhaps by a potential employer. They might forget what age they'd said on a previous occasion. Some might have chosen an age convenient to circumstance, e.g. wanting to seem young and fit to get a job or a marriage partner.
Bridget was born around 20 years before registration of births began in Ireland and long before compulsory education began in Ireland or Britain.
Ages of my Irish grandfather's family were all over the place. Almost 2 decades difference between ages on 1901 and 1911 censuses. Irish grandmother's family were consistent about age. Her parents didn't get around to registering the birth of one of her sisters though.
Some of my English ancestors had notable age inconsistencies too. One female ancestor and her children were lodgers on 1851 and 1861 census; whoever filled in census forms may have estimated her age on both occasions. My eldest uncle added a year to his age on 1939 census.