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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: rob749 on Friday 13 November 20 17:29 GMT (UK)

Title: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Friday 13 November 20 17:29 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone,
Just started to trace my family tree, my ancestors are Welsh with my grandfathers name Jones and my grandmothers maiden name Evans, its proving a very difficult task to get very far at all! I have got back to a 1911 and 1901 Census and got quite a bit of info from that - birthplace, residences, employment etc.

I'm trying to trace marriage records. I managed to get the marriage year approximately from length of marriage on the 1911 census. I found a couple that were the only possibilities in 1892 and bought the certificates. I discounted one completely, but the only discrepancy I can find on the one I think it is, is the age of the bride, it says aged 19 years, if it was the correct one, she would be aged 17 years, the husband's looks good by the profession, and the ages tally on the census.

The residence of the groom is the same area as the census, but I can't find the pre-marriage address on the census the previous year to the marriage. So I'm getting bogged down with detail really. Is it possible for the age to be wrong on the certificate, ie a typo that 17 may have been misread for 19 on the original? Did they marry that young in 1892? Any advice/help appreciated, thank you.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: chempat on Friday 13 November 20 23:34 GMT (UK)
Yes, they did marry young.  Yes, they gave false ages, both deliberately and by accident.

Are the names of the witnesses any help?

Do you want to give the pre-marriage address so we can try and find it?
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: goldie61 on Saturday 14 November 20 01:13 GMT (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat!
I can see why you are having to check and cross-check every detail in your family history research. With names like Jones and Evans it must be quite a challenge in Wales!

I'd just reiterate what chempat has said.
People did marry young, at any time in history.
And yes, people were often 'economical with the truth' for whatever reason. Sometimes accidentally, sometimes deliberately, and sometimes because they just didn't know.
You can NEVER take what is written down, even on an official document like a birth or marriage certificate, or Census, as the absolute truth. And ages on death records, whether certificates or burial entries in parish registers, were very often just an estimate of the age of the person who had died.
Does it say on the marriage certificate whether the marriage was by banns or licence?
If it was by licence, there may be some extra information somewhere, especially if she was under 21 (whether that is 17 or 19) as you say.

good luck! :)
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Saturday 14 November 20 10:25 GMT (UK)
Thanks Chempat and Goldie 61, I've attached the marriage certificate. Assuming its the correct one anyway, I came to a dead end with the grooms address, but I managed to find the address listed against the bride in 1891 census, with the father's name and the brides name listed along with assumed siblings, she was aged 16 on the census document.

I'm assuming its correct as it would be a bit of a coincidence the same name house with the same head of household with daughter of the same name. Although all these names were very common at the time in Carmarthenshire. I just need to be convinced its the correct marriage certificate that I have !

Goldie 61, it mentions married  'by certificate' at the bottom right, is that what you mean?
Thanks for any input, I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Saturday 14 November 20 10:49 GMT (UK)
Sorry, that attachment didn't save properly. I'll try again. The only way it will work is in portrait, so to see it all, it will have to be rotated in your viewer. If you can't see it, please let me know and I will type out the details in the post itself. It won't load, file too big.
Here are the details.
Date 4 Oct 1892
Name: John Owen Jones, 25 years, Weaver, 4 Meiros Street, Drefach, LLangeler. Father - Henry Jones.
Name: Anne Evans, 19 years, Address: Perthiteg, Penboyr. Father - Ebenezer Evans.
Witnesses - James Jones, Benjamin Jones.
Place: Bethel Chapel, Newcastle in Emlyn. Married according to rites and ceremonies of Calvinistic Methodists by certificate. Then names of minister and registrar are listed.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: goldie61 on Saturday 14 November 20 20:19 GMT (UK)
I've not come across 'by certificate' before Rob.
But this previous post on Rootschat explains it.
It is the equivalent of Banns, so no licence to try and find by the look of it.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=696493.0

From what you've written, it looks as though the 2 witnesses were part of the groom's family - well, at least there are no 'Evans' witnesses to see if they can be tied in with the bride. That's a pity.

So it looks like she added a couple of years on to her age at the marriage? Possibly because the groom was quite a bit older than her. Or the age on the Census might be out. Have you found her actual birth date?
If I read your post correctly, the address for Anne Evans given on the marriage certificate in 1892, is  the same address where she, and the father Ebenezer, live in the 1891 Census?
Anne Evans must be a pretty common name in Wales, but Ebenezer not so much.
I would think it must be the same people.
Does it not give Ebenezer's profession on the marriage certificate?
Does it match with his profession on the 1891 Census?

For future reference, if you need to post an image again, as you have found, the maximum size you can post on here is 500kb.
That often means you have to reduce the size of your file.
I usually do this through the photo software on my computer (iphoto on Mac. Not sure on Microsoft).
If you load the image into the photo software, you can then re-save it as a lesser file size. Bit of trial and error to get the image as near to 500 kb as possible. This helps when then trying to read at it after it has been posted on here, as if it's a very small file, when you zoom in on it, it goes all fuzzy and pixelates.
There has to be a help page for this here on Rootschat. I'll see if I can find it.

Added: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
How to post an image here on Rootschat.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Saturday 14 November 20 21:23 GMT (UK)
so is this your family in 1901?

Tanygraig, Penboyr RG13/5139 folio 50 pg 10
John O Jones head mar 33 woollen weaver employer b. Cenarth
Anne wife 26 b. Penboyr
Olwen dau 7 b. Penboyr
Harry O N son 3 b. Llangeler
Rachel M dau 1 b. Llangeler

possible for John O Jones aged 23 at Dyffryn Mills in 1891 RG12/4546 folio 81 pg 5

this link gives some background on the local mills

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q1h/

Looking at Cenarth for a John with father Henry,  there's this possible family in 1881 and with a brother James who could be the witness. You didn't give Henry's occupation, so can't be sure it matches.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2W9-BZ9T
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Saturday 14 November 20 21:33 GMT (UK)
if that is the correct James, he was killed by a lightning strike in 1895.    :o

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3252874/3252878/113/
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: Ayashi on Saturday 14 November 20 23:45 GMT (UK)
I have Jones in Wales as well, so you have my sympathies.

Ages should occasionally be taken with a pinch of salt. Some of my lines are very consistent, others not so much. My Welsh lines are not so much. One of mine, Walter Jones, varies his age on census so much that his date of birth was anything between 1805 and 1821- tailored somewhat to each of his two wives (the first being significantly older, the second being significantly younger). He was actually born, or at least christened, in 1808, which matches his eventual death. A difference of two years isn't much sometimes, especially when ages can vary a year depending on whether or not someone has had their birthday at the time. I think at 19 she'd still have needed parental permission to marry (?) so fibbing about that seems odd.

And yes, certificates obtained from the GRO can contain errors because they are copies of the originals. I have a few that have mistakes, such as one that has a marriage date of 1888 when the original image and index are 1887 and another where the middle name was written as Henderson when she was Harrison. If the original wasn't clear it's possible the copy was miswritten, or just a mistake happened. There are a lot of times that the original has errors though, intentionally or otherwise.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Sunday 15 November 20 11:52 GMT (UK)
Wow! Thanks everyone for all the helpful hints and information, there's a lot of stuff in there. I really appreciate it. In answer to the questions posed.
1. Anne Evans is shown living with Father Ebenezer aged 6, Birth year 1875, Address Berllan, Penboyr in 1881 Census. Also shown, 1891 Census, Anne Evans, aged 16, Perthiteg, Penboyr.

2. Ebenezer Evans - profession Wool Weaver on census, Weaver on certificate.

3. Henry Jones profession - Labourer on marriage certificate, Ag Labourer on census.

4. No actual birth date for Anne evans as yet, but think I may have got it down to March Quarter with a GRO Volume and Page no ref, just by using age on wedding date (assuming its 17yrs, and date of 1901 census, then by elimination going by age it must be between Jan and Mar 1875. Just have to chance it and buy certificate and see if its right.

5. Osprey, thats correct its my family with the 1901 census, also confirmed in 1911 census living in Margam, but still showing employment as Manager of Welsh woollen mill, with his brother in law (Anne Evans brother) lodging there, and showing employment at same factory as him. Odd, as I don't think there were any woollen mills in that area. Unless they commuted - unlikely I would have thought. Re the Dyffryn Mills, is it likely workers actually live at the mill then? Or is it just where they were when census was taken? Then it begs the question what was the 4 Meiros Street thing that I can't find at all, all I have found is that there is a Meiros Lane in Drefach, but no census info that I can find anyway. See Note 3 for Henry profession. Also thanks for the newspaper item, very interesting.

I also found that my grandparents lost a daughter Rachel Maud Jones, my Aunt, by drowning in the mill stream behind the houses in Drefach aged about 3-4yrs. She is on the 1901 Census aged 1, but not 1911, and recorded on there is 1 child deceased, interesting stuff. Can't find any newspaper items about that, maybe Osprey could point me in the right direction their please?

Well, thanks so much everybody, you are all so helpful, all I'm concerned about now is that if its the wrong marriage certificate, it could all be wrong! I just went on the first born's age assuming they were married when she was born in 1894, and Anne Evan's age, assuming she was over 16 when married, which narrowed it down to 1891 -1894. I suppose you have to assume lots without concrete evidence and just hope for the best ! Sorry about the long post, but I am extremely grateful for all your help.

Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: chempat on Sunday 15 November 20 12:17 GMT (UK)
You could join this facebook group to ask about mills in the area:
https://www.facebook.com/Old.Port.Talbot

or if non-facebook
http://www.historicalporttalbot.com/

Nothing to do with this, I have just zoomed in to Margam on a map, near Kenfig Hill, which was where a university acquaintance came from, I thought it was one word when I first met her.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 15 November 20 12:46 GMT (UK)
Just have to chance it and buy certificate and see if its right.

No need to guess really.

EVANS, ANNE
Mother's maiden surname: OLIVER     
GRO Reference: 1874  D Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN  Volume 11B  Page 19

You will find births registered for all of their other children who appear in census records.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp

Ebenezer and Mary married in 1870.

Debra  :)

Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 15 November 20 13:06 GMT (UK)
Birth
JONES, RACHEL  MAUD
Mother's maiden surname: EVANS     
GRO Reference: 1899  S Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN  Volume 11B  Page 15

Death
JONES, RACHEL  MAUD
Aged 3 
GRO Reference: 1903  M Quarter in NEWCASTLE-IN-EMLYN  Volume 11B  Page 19

Welsh newspapers are online here.

https://newspapers.library.wales/home

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Sunday 15 November 20 13:53 GMT (UK)
on the 1891 census, John O Jones is enumerated as servant, so he might still be apprenticed at the mill. By the time he married, he might have finished his apprenticeship and moved out of the mill. Meiros Lane appears to be in Llangeler rather than Penboyr.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q1m/
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Sunday 15 November 20 16:17 GMT (UK)
Just have to chance it and buy certificate and see if its right.

No need to guess really.

EVANS, ANNE
Mother's maiden surname: OLIVER     
GRO Reference: 1874  D Quarter in NEWCASTLE IN EMLYN  Volume 11B  Page 19

You will find births registered for all of their other children who appear in census records.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp

Ebenezer and Mary married in 1870.

Debra  :)
Hi Debra, Thanks to everyone for the research. When I did a search on there for 1874, it came up with about 4 options, just wondering how you narrowed it down to one, I couldn't find a way to check for any detail. Could birth/reg date also be Jan/Feb/Mar 1875, the years all work out then too I think, assuming all the Census' are in April?
How did you get the Ebenezer and Mary marriage too. Be good to know for future reference. Please let me know. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Sunday 15 November 20 16:51 GMT (UK)
if you use the GRO website to check the birth regs, the maiden names are given for the period before they appear on FreeBmd

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

If you have a family with a common surname, check the birth of a child with a less common first name(s), so
Albert Oliver Evans age 1 in 1891 has mother's maiden name Oliver
Gwilym Edgar age 5 has mother's maiden name Oliver
Harry Gladstone age 7 has mother's maiden name Oliver
so you can be sure that the birth reg for Anne is the one with mother's maiden name Oliver.

Then using FreeBmd, you can search for a marriage between Ebenezer Evans and Mary Oliver and both names appear in march qtr 1870 Newcastle Emlyn vol 11b pg 29. The parish entry for the marriage can be accessed via FindmyPast
31 March 1870 parish church of Llangeler
Ebenezer Evans 20 bach weaver Cefen Canol father Thomas Evans weaver
Mary Oliver 20 spinster Star father David Oliver farmer
witnesses John Evans & William Jones (?), all signed.

Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Monday 16 November 20 18:59 GMT (UK)
if you use the GRO website to check the birth regs, the maiden names are given for the period before they appear on FreeBmd

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

If you have a family with a common surname, check the birth of a child with a less common first name(s), so
Albert Oliver Evans age 1 in 1891 has mother's maiden name Oliver
Gwilym Edgar age 5 has mother's maiden name Oliver
Harry Gladstone age 7 has mother's maiden name Oliver
so you can be sure that the birth reg for Anne is the one with mother's maiden name Oliver.

Then using FreeBmd, you can search for a marriage between Ebenezer Evans and Mary Oliver and both names appear in march qtr 1870 Newcastle Emlyn vol 11b pg 29. The parish entry for the marriage can be accessed via FindmyPast
31 March 1870 parish church of Llangeler
Ebenezer Evans 20 bach weaver Cefen Canol father Thomas Evans weaver
Mary Oliver 20 spinster Star father David Oliver farmer
witnesses John Evans & William Jones (?), all signed.




Thanks for the very useful tips on how to use the GRO, had no idea it would come up with the maiden name of the mother, thought that had to be typed in, really useful information thanks.

Just one thing, out of curiosity, I went to the Findmypast website to look at the Parish Marriages, and there's no way I can bring up the information in the search that you have quoted, with regard to Mary Oliver and Ebenezer Evans. I must be doing something wrong, but I've tried all sorts of combinations of years, places, record sets, Llangeler, Newcastle in Emlyn etc, but keeps coming up 'No Results'.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Monday 16 November 20 19:10 GMT (UK)
under Search, select Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish records, put in Ebenezer Evans and 1870 as the year of marriage. Select the record from the set Carmarthenshire Marriages & Banns and look at the attached image, not just the index.

Just noticed that Mary has been indexed as Olwer. I'll submit a correction.

 ;)
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Monday 16 November 20 20:08 GMT (UK)
Thanks Osprey, leaving out the Oliver bit did it, as you said, listed incorrectly. Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Tuesday 17 November 20 12:11 GMT (UK)
sometimes less is more!

 :D
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Thursday 03 December 20 16:17 GMT (UK)
Hi Again Everyone,
Just struggling a little trying to link the household census of my great grandfather (Henry Jones) from 1871 to 1881, please see attached transcriptions - hopefully they have worked this time!

He seems to have a different wife, maybe she died between those years and he remarried, but not sure how to go about verifying that, it's really difficult with the 'Jones' thing in West Wales. I have tried looking for marriages, deaths, childrens births to verify the mother etc, but not getting too far. The house name has changed, but he could have moved? The birth places all tie up for children and first wife, only thing is the eldest son David is not is not on 1871 census, would have been 14 - died maybe? Any advice would be helpful, thanks again.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Thursday 03 December 20 16:19 GMT (UK)
Sorry first three attachments went wrong, I'll send again now
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Thursday 03 December 20 17:04 GMT (UK)
Given the gap between ages of children in 1881 census, certainly looks like 2 marriages.

Likely burial in Llandyfriog 18 June 1872 for Martha Jones 39 of Hen Bengelly in the parish of Cenarth

Possible for the marriage Henry Jones sept qtr 1856 Newcastle Emlyn vol 11b pg 31 with Martha Evans on the same page.
Possible birth reg for Rachel Jones dec qtr 1869 Newcastle Emlyn vol 11b pg 20 mmn Evans.

Possible for second marriage Henry Jones dec qtr 1874 Newcastle Emlyn vol 11b pg 53 with Sarah Jones on the same page
Birth reg for Peter Jones march qtr 1877 Newcastle Emlyn vol 11b pg 19 mmn Jones

By the way, I wouldn't rely on transcriptions of census entries. Always look at the scan as there may be errors or missing details. Also, give you an idea of the families around.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Thursday 03 December 20 18:14 GMT (UK)
just found the parish register entry for the marriage of Henry & Martha

18 Sept 1856 parish church of Llandyfriog
Henry Jones 20 bach labourer Fronlas father William Jones labourer
Martha Evans 23 spinster Penddol father John Evans carpenter
both mark, witnesses John Evans & James Davies both sign.

1841 census Penddol Village HO107/1377/11 folio 26 pg 6
Martha Davies independent 
John Evans 35 carpenter not born in county
Mary 30
Martha 8
Richard 3 months
Owen 3 months

1851 Martha is a servant at Blaengwydon in Cenarth HO107/2482 folio 196 pg 18

https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/b475b845-432c-4d58-82fe-46e4af911828
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Thursday 03 December 20 18:38 GMT (UK)
1841 census Cnwcybettws, Cilrhedyn HO107/1383/10 folio 6 pg 4
William Jones 45 ag lab
Rachael 40 not born in county
Griffith 14
David 12
Samuel 10
James 8
Rachael 5
Henry 5 twins
Peter 2

map of Cnwcybettws (not as per transcription on FindMyPast Enwckybettens  ::) )
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/e48042cd-978e-4692-b6ac-856de6088842

possible birth reg for Peter Jones dec qtr 1838 Newcastle Emlyn vol 26 pg 574 mmn Evans

Not finding baptisms for any of the children, families could be non-conformist.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Friday 04 December 20 16:02 GMT (UK)
Wow! Thanks for all that detail Osprey, much appreciated. I do usually look at the document, but the transcription was a smaller size, so it was easier to upload on to the forum just for information purposes. Thanks again for your time and effort. :)
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Friday 04 December 20 17:32 GMT (UK)
if you're posting transcriptions, you can use the ones from FamilySearch which is free and you can just add the link

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55G-VS5

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2W9-BZMM

 ;)
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 04 December 20 19:25 GMT (UK)
The birth places all tie up for children and first wife, only thing is the eldest son David is not is not on 1871 census, would have been 14 - died maybe? Any advice would be helpful, thanks again.

Keep in mind that a census recorded only people who were in the dwelling at midnight on census night or who were absent only because they were working on night-shift and would be returning to the dwelling when their shift ended. A census is not a record of who normally lived in a household. It's like a snapshot of a household on 1 day in 10 years. David may have been working away or visiting relatives or friends.
When a person was a servant "living in" or a boarder the head of household sometimes didn't write names or other information accurately on the census form.   
 The eldest girl, aged 9, in one of my families was missing from a census. I eventually found her, spending Easter holidays at her grandfather's farm in Ireland. Her English surname and her shortened first name were written phonetically on the Irish census form; the initial letter of her surname was R instead of W.  Her GF couldn't write and his first language was Irish. Another girl from a large family was absent from her father's household on 2 consecutive censuses. She was at her grandparent's home in the same street on both occasions. Her youngest sister and her stepmother were visiting her married sister for a later census.
I have Jones and Davies ancestors but haven't traced them back to Wales.   
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Monday 21 December 20 16:11 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone,
You were all so useful last time, for which I am really grateful, wondering if you could solve this small mystery. Still trying to trace Grandfather John Owen Jones birth details, I came across this (see attached). It's a WW1 Dependants pension document for his son Harry OK Jones who obviously died towards the end of the war. I have all those details, burial place, sign up documents etc.

The strange part is his father is listed on the Pension document as Richard John Owen Jones, I have been looking for birth records for John Owen Jones, because on all the census documents, marriage certificate etc is how he has listed there. All the addresses on the document tie up (9 Windsor Arcade is where I was brought up) and  the original address North St, Port Talbot is on the 1910 Census. Thats the first anomaly, the second is his wife's name has been crossed out and 'deceased' written in and the new address written in at the same time. I'm wondering was this added at a much later date than 1918 to transfer the Pension maybe.

After 'Father' written in the relationship line I wanted to know if you think that is a date (5/10/38). Also in red ink on the right of the document in the upside down picture (couldn't get it in on original as it was chopped, so rotated to see it), if that is a date 17/10/38 maybe as well??

Just thinking that would help in pinpointing death date of my grandmother, as I've looked all around 1914-18 and nothing found that ties up. Still can't find any birth records of (Richard) John Owen Jones around 1867 in Cenarth, Cardiganshire though.  :(

Sorry its all a bit complicated, hope someone's got the patience to plough through it! Thanks in anticipation.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Monday 21 December 20 20:05 GMT (UK)
you may be better asking about the pension documents on the Armed Forces Board as thye have more knowledge

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/armed-forces/

The nearest match for John's birth reg looks to be
John Jones june qtr 1867 Newcastle in Emlyn vol 11b pg 25 mmn Evans
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: rob749 on Tuesday 22 December 20 13:44 GMT (UK)
Thanks again Osprey, I'll try that on the Armed Forces board. Re John Jones, I thought that was the birth Registration too, but when I got it, nothing matched, birthplace, parents names etc. So 7 quid down the drain ! Oh well, it was worth a try, at least I can discount it now.

It's the Richard thing now, it's making me doubt all the earlier pre 1901 information, even the marriage certificate details, although I'm 90% sure on that.

I'd have thought even if he dropped the name Richard in later life for some reason, I would have seen it on the Marriage certificate or the earlier census' when he was a child. Can't find a Richard in the family at all, because i notice they used to name children in a lot of cases after the parents. Oh well, the later stuff is definitely right. I'll just keep digging and see what comes up. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Marriage details
Post by: osprey on Tuesday 22 December 20 21:01 GMT (UK)
well, he could be

Richard Jones march qtr 1867 Newcastle in Emlyn vol 11b pg 27 mmn Evans

although there is a Richard Jones of the right age in the area with father Evan.

You could try the local registrars instead of the GRO and ask them only to issue the cert if the father is Henry when lockdown is over.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q5g/