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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Ranolki on Sunday 15 November 20 15:04 GMT (UK)
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I've already had some help on this topic but I now have some more info and wonder if anyone can come up with more ideas. I'm chasing up someone who says he served with this regiment (he says he was born in 1837 and signed up in 1857 in Birmingham) and then went on to serve in the Crimea, India, China and New Zealand. I can't find that he exists prior to arriving in Australia in 1867 and I believe he may well have fought in some of those campaigns but under another name and possibly deserted as his Regiment was leaving for the UK in 1869.
I've discovered there were two Battalions of the 50th Queens Own. The first battalion served as follows:
1848 England
1854 Ireland
1854 Malta
1854 Gallipoli peninsula
1854 Crimea
1856 England
1856 Ireland
1857 Ceylon
1863 New Zealand
1863 Maori war
1866 Australia
1869 England
He mentions saving the life of Col Waddy so I'm assuming he was with the 1st (the life-saving may be another matter though...), also the 2nd didn't go to New Zealand, although they WERE involved with the Sepoy Rebellion in India. From what I can see the 1st went back to the UK after the Crimea (another point is the Crimean war was over by the time he apparently signed up, despite saying he was shot by a Russian there) but then were sent out to Ceylon in 1857 where they were garrisoned until they headed off to New Zealand in 1863. If he DID enlist in 1857 I would say that would fit with them going out to Ceylon. However I can't see they were involved in any wars in India or China either, just the Maori Wars. He supposedly was awarded three ribbons and a medal but these have never been seen.
I think he knew too much of the Regiments history and commanders not to have been involved in some way but I do get the impression that quite a lot of it is invention (possibly hearsay from older comrades?), added to which I'm pretty sure he didn't begin life as the person he became in 1869.
I'm trying to build up a picture and wonder if anyone has definitive knowledge that the 1st Batt. 50th were NOT in any Indian or Chinese Wars in that period? I know the wars were going on then but I can't see any involvement for the 1st Batt. 50th.
As I don't think I have a proper name for him it's not going to be possible to verify much in the way of Army records at the moment but I have been told he did not received any medals etc in any of the campaigns in the name he used from 1869. From what we can see he DOES have weak DNA links using his new name so I'm wondering if it was his mother's maiden name etc. But I suspect that's further down the line and I just want to see what wars he could genuinely have been involved with!
I was very interested that someone found me a person of the same name at Colchester Barracks on the 1861 census but I'm more or less 100% certain this wasn't him.
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The history may answer your question:
https://archive.org/details/historythorquee00fylegoog
MaxD
PS There was no 2nd Battalion in that time frame except 1804-1814
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Thank you for that, I'll have a read.
I had found this online which seems to point to two separate parts for the 50th Queens Own and their postings, which I had assumed were battalions.
The first were listed exactly as I copied above, the second was:
1848 Nova Scotia: Halifax
1853 England
1854 Greece
1855 Crimea
1856 England
1857 India
1857 Sepoy rebellion
1858 India
1867 England
1871 Ireland
I'm more than happy to be corrected as I've only just started looking at this but could someone help with these two different lots of destinations? I think I may end up where I need to be with trial and error and a lot of help from knowledgeable people so thanks for any input!
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Regiments did not always serve as complete units all in the same place so elements of 50 Foot could well be listed in two separate places.
Not sure at all about your second list. Where did each of these come from?
MaxD
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I picked it up from here but I realise now that this might not be correct. The dates do fit in with what I can find on Colonel Richard Waddy though.
http://www.britisharmedforces.org/i_regiments/quewestk_index.htm
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he first set of dates is correct. The listings are confusingly laid out, the list that has 1848 Halifax etc relates to the 97th Foot which in 1881 after amalgamation with 50th Foot became became 2nd Battalion Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment
The 50th Foot raised in 1755 became the West Kents in 1782, the 97th raised in 1824 were linked as 1st and 2nd Battalions in 1881.
MaxD
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OK, thanks very much for that. So I'm working with the correct details and the 50th were not involved in fighting in India or China at that time? It seems he has elements of the truth which he embroidered no end.
I think we'll now struggle to find out who he started life as before it appears he adopted his new name in 1869. How normal would it be for a soldier to buy himself in this day and age? Would there be records? He would have been 30/32 if his dob is correct. We have SOME clues with DNA and his connections back to the UK but it's going to be difficult! Would anyone know if there are any records of men enlisting with them in any given year?
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IF his discharge records have survived they will be on one or other of the subscription sites but what name are you going to be looking for?
The men serving in the battalion are listed in the annual Muster Rolls kept at the National Archives, not digitised - long list (I haven't sorted it) here:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r/2?_aq=50%20foot%20muster&_nq1=bagshaw&_dss=range&_ro=any&_p=1800&_st=adv The detail though is sparse and doesn't say when a man joined. The only way to do that is finding him to start with and then working back until he appears for the first time and forward until he leaves.
Discharge by purchase did exist.
Needle/haystack??
MaxD
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Linking to the previous thread for Max's benefit https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=839743
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Thank you Shaun, I do recall looking for Troth initially on that other thread but deciding quickly that this was not for me, I didn't connect this thread.
Thank you
MaxD
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Thank you ShaunJ, I had no idea how to link in that previous thread. As MaxD said, it looks like a needle in haystack but at the moment I just want to work out the places he could have been rather than what he said later. I think it all depends on whether we can believe anything he said but it does seem he went out to Ceylon, on to New Zealand and then to Australia, where he stayed. We DO have some DNA clues to help us work out who her really was but I think those will come into play further down the line. No one saw the medals/ribbons he talked about and the information in the family bible (ie his full name and date and place of birth) is also likely to be false from what we can see. He gave enough detail to family members to make at least part of his service believable so I think he really was in the 50th Queens Own. It seems his time in the Crimea, India and China may be invention though...
At the moment I think I would be happy if someone could just confirm the info I have pulled together is logical, then we can see what sort of job it would be to go through any existing records. I was pleased with the person you pulled up from the 1861 census but I traced his family back and excluded him. His sister had children but there is no DNA link there from what we can see and I don't think he's related. Also he would not have been in the UK in 1861.
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Someone has sent me this. I'm not quite sure of its source and whether there are earlier pages (I'm enquiring) but it seems to be all the discharges from the 50th Queens Own once they were in Australia.This might turn out to be something very useful!
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Another opinion please. It seems this new list I have is the discharge record for the whole 50th Queens Own as they prepared to leave Australia in 1869. There are 280 entries, each showing the date and point of discharge, Adelaide, Sydney, New Zealand, etc. Quite a few show England as the discharge point. As we expected, there are no Troths on there...
Could I just ask if the 280 would be likely to be the whole complement of the 50th after a four year campaign? These are non-commissioned officer and men. A few are just shown as discharged with no place mentioned and I'm assuming they were just thrown out for some reason and not taken forward to the final destination.
We are going through the whole list, dismissing those who sailed back to the UK, also those with Irish sounding surnames (the Queens Own 50th left for Ceylon from Ireland so would seem to have recruited men there first). I'm not sure what we are going to discover as the person we are looking for quite obviously gave himself a whole new persona but it will be an interesting quest! Thank you for the input - it has been helpful.
One more thing, can anyone explain to me the difference between a ribbon and a medal as an award? Are the ribbons of lower "value" than a medal?
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There are figures in the history (page 288) for the strength (700) in 1868 which would suggest these are just the discharges.
Once awarded, medal ribbons were usually made available and authorised for wear before the actual medal was struck and issued. The ribbon and the medal are hence of equal value.
MaxD
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Thank you for that. I really appreciate the input, it's helpful to have someone who can interpret what information is available. Do you happen to know if there was a minimum age for enlisting in the 1850s?
We still can't work out why someone would want to serve in a campaign (apparently with three ribbons and a medal) then invent a whole new identity for himself. We will probably never know the answer but we will see what we can do! He did say he served on Cockatoo island for two years. We're wondering if he was actually a prisoner and invented a new persona when he was released!
I must admit I picture him lapping up the admiration as he talked about all his imagined exploits. He was quite obviously feted in Inverell, where he finally settled. He supposedly saved Colonel Waddy's life at some point in New Zealand. I can't see that Waddy was injured at all in New Zealand (he was slightly injured in the Crimea). The man we are tracing was apparently shot and seriously wounded by a Russian soldier in the Crimea (in through his chest and out through his thigh) but I'm reasonably certain he wasn't even in that campaign. And according to the reminiscences of family who remembered him in his old age he didn't walk with a limp or show any disability at all.
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Generally 14 with some exceptions to 12 or 13.
I leave the haystack to you!
MaxD
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Thank you! If we ever get to the bottom of it I will report back. I don't hold out all that much hope but we'll give it a good try. We're attacking it from two angles, me in the UK and another descendant in Australia...