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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: moo on Sunday 15 November 20 17:45 GMT (UK)
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Good Evening
I am looking for information regarding Christian Chalmers and William Finnie married 17 June 1839 St. Cuthberts Edinburgh, and also a recording for 21st June 1839 Uphall.
In 1851 I can find Christian Chalmers, Rose St, Edinburgh according to Ancestry but it gives 1851 uk sample census, still cannot find anything on Scotlands People for 1841
I can also find a death for Christian Chalmers or Finnie 30th May Uphall 1851, but again I cant find them in 1851 (census date was 30th March).
Any help gratefully received
Moo
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The only 1841 entry in Midlothian for a Christian Finnie has a birthdate of 1799 & from the ages of the children with her - the marriage was before 1839
Is she shown as single on the 1839 marriage entry
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I did some checking for you and I always alternate between Ancestry - for clues and Scotlands People for proof.
According to the SP Index I have found as follows -
1841 Census - Christina Finnie aged 35 and William Finnie aged 30 - Reference 672/2/3 - Uphall
1851 Census - Christian Finnie aged 50 and William Finnie aged 54 - Reference 672/2/16 - Uphall
1861 Census - Christian Finnie aged 45 and William Finnie aged 45 - Reference 672/3/13 - Uphall
The ages are way out but this can happen but these might be worth checking out. By the way was William a Blacksmith?
Dorrie
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Hello CaroleW
It does not states but gives surname of Chalmers of the parish of St Cuthberts.
Thank you Dowdstree I will check SP again.
Regards
Moo
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Moo there is a death for a William Finnie aged 62 in Uphall for 1868 which may be worth checking out.
Reference 672/5 Mothers Maiden name is given as Boag. Again from the SP Index.
Dorrie
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Thank you Dowdstree,
At the moment none of the Census seemed to be a match, and I have a death for Christian in 1851, I will still check Williams Death in 1868, you never know ;D
Regards
Moo
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No luck I'm afraid this William Finnie was married to a Christina Mckenzie and the entry didn't state that it was a second marriage.
Regards
Moo
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I was about to post about William Finnie and Christina McKenzie when I read the above post. It is worth noting that there is a marriage showing for them 7 June 1853 in Uphall and St Cuthberts. Coincidence that the locations are the same as in 1839? Does this indeed suggest a second marriage?
William
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Hello Millmoor
I checked it out, it does not state that William was a widow but he could have been, I shall keep it all on file :)
I will also check for any births between 1839 and 1851.
Regards
Moo
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:( No recorded births
Regards
Moo
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1851 census shows William Finnie 44 b Uphall blacksmith. Wife Christian 50 b Dalmeny, W Lothian.
1861 shows William Finnie 53 b Uphall blacksmith Wife Christian 45 b Rockford Moray.
Difference in age and place of birth suggests a different Christina (Christian)
Death for a Christina McKenzie - Finnie in Forres, Moray 1896 age 80 which matches with the age in the 1861 census.
William
Added Libindx has a death For Christina Finnie ( McKenzie) 20 Aug 1896 at 1 North Street, Forres d.o.b c 1816. States spouse was William Finnie blacksmith.
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1861 shows William Finnie 53 b Uphall blacksmith Wife Christian 45 b Rockford Moray.
No such place - if it's really in Moray this is almost certainly a mistranscription of Rafford, which the the next-door parish to Forres.
The birthplace of the Christina Finnie in Uphall in 1841 is West Lothian.
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I was going to add a further post saying that Christina Finney is living in Forres with her sisters in the 1871, 1881 and 1891 and that her place of birth indeed looks like Rafford. In 1871 and 1881 she is recorded as a provision dealer.
William.
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It does look as if it's one William Finnie with two wives, both called Christian/Christina.
Have you looked at all four marriage records? Or at least one of the 1853 ones? The St Cuthbert's ones might be more informative than the Uphall ones.
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Hello Forfarian
I looked at the 1853 Uphall Marriage for William and Christian Mckenzie
Regards
Moo
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Hi Moo
The 1839 Edinburgh parish register entry for the marriage/banns shows Christian Chalmers' father to be called Robert www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY9G-F5T The original image might include an occupation for him or location. Edinburgh registers are better than most for some details.
Monica
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Good Morning MonicaL
I downloaded the St Cuthberts marriage it did give a occupation of the father - a farm servant, trouble is, it stated daughter of the late Robert Chalmers. I am beginning to wonder if this my Christian as all the other information I have on Robert states he was a Toll Keeper and I believe I found him in the 1841 Census and have a possible death for him in 1851.
Regards
Moo
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Could he perhaps have taken on being a tollkeeper when he got older, after Christian's marriage, and maybe wasn't as fit for labouring work?
My own great-great-grandfather was an agricultural labourer in 1841, a lime burner in 1851 and a tollkeeper in 1861.
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Moo, might be an idea to review how you got to the toll keeper Robert Chalmers perhaps. What makes you think that it could be her father?
To be honest, I would be more inclined to think that he was already deceased as indicated on that 1839 parish register entry...
Monica
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There are a few marriages showing on the St Cuthbert's parish registers which show father as a Robert Chalmers:
Mary 1827 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYWC-5LL
Elizabeth 1834 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY95-LXV
Janet Robb 1837 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY9T-LHM
Not saying they are necessarily connected, but adding here for consideration.
See from 1851, Christian is showing as born c. 1801 in Dalmeny, West Lothian.
Monica
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Hello Monical
The reason I feel sure about the Toll Keeper is that 3 of his children have it listed as his occupation on their death certificates.
I have found all the births for the children but none of them mention his occupation.
Regards
Moo
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Is it this birth or christening that you found for her?:
CHRISTIAN CHALMERS
ROBERT CHALMERS/CHRISTIAN BLACK
20/03/1798
665/20 222
Dalmeny
Monica
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Hi MonicaL
No the birth I found
Christian Chalmers daughter of Robert Chalmers and Janet Bartholomew 22 Apr 1789 Currie.
It did state " In then Leith"
Regards
Moo
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Mmmm...that doesn't seem to match the details on her 1851 entry :-\
William Finnie 44 Blacksmith b. Uphall
Christian Finnie 50 Blacksmith's Wife b. Dalmeny
Address: Uphall Village
Monica
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I will see if I can check the 1841 Census again and see what it says.
Regards
Moo
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I'm confused. If you are looking for a baptism of Christian Chalmers, and you don't know who her parents were, how do you know that the children of Robert Chalmers whose death certificates you have found were her siblings? Because if they were her siblings the death certificates would have told you who her parents were. From these death certificates, what was the name of the wife of Robert Chalmers, tollkeeper?
I think there may be two Robert Chalmers here, one of whom was a tollkeeper and the other a farm servant who had died before 1839.
Timeline
About 1800 Birth of Christian Chalmers or Finnie in Dalmeny, West Lothian
Before 1939 Death of Robert Chalmers
1839 William Finnie and Christian Chalmers marry. Marriage is recorded in both Edinburgh and Uphall
1841 William and Christian Chalmers or Finnie, 35 (so born 1801/6), born West Lothian in census in Uphall
1841 Christian Finnie, 42 (so born 1798/9), born Midlothian, in census in Dalkeith with (son?) Peter and (daughter?) Jessie. Therefore these are two totally different Christian Finnies
1851 William and Christina Chalmers or Finnie, 50 (so born 1800/1), born Dalmeny, in census in Uphall
1851 Christian Chalmers, 43 (so born 1797/8), in census in Rose Street, Edinburgh with husband David Chalmers. Therefore these are two different Christian Chalmers
1851 Christian Chalmers (or Finnie?) dies in Uphall
1853 William Finnie marries Christian Mackenzie
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Hi Forfarian
I do know who her parents and siblings were, I found all the documents on SP, I am looking for confirmation of her marriage and her death. I found a death for a Christian Chalmers or Finnie in 1851, and was trying to establish if she is mine. ;D
Regards
Moo
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Hi Moo
I don't want to make my posts and comments come across as if I want you to change your mind ;) Only, as more info is added, we all sometimes need to re-evaluate where we were at!
With only a couple of censuses for her (and 1841 can add so little most of the time), that is all really we have to work with. If you agree that the 1839 marriag entry in Edinburgh to William Finnie is the correct one, then it looks like she was born c. 1800 in Dalmeny, West Lothian and her father Robert, a farm servant, was deceased at the time she married. Those are really the only hard facts you have on her. You mention also that you have an OPR death or burial entry for her?
Monica
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What are the names of the parents of the siblings whose deaths you have found?
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Hi Monical
I love putting my theories to the test with everyone on this board, like you say it helps sort things out, when I downloaded the Uphall marriage 1839 I was sure that this Christian was mine who married William Finnie, until it was suggested I check the St Cuthberts entry, which I did and its on checking that one I find it states that Robert Chalmers was a farmer and deceased at time of Marriage. However I have found a possible death for Robert Chalmers in 1851 Uphall and when I downloaded it, I also read a death of Christian Chalmers or Finnie a couple of days later. Sorry for all the confusion, it doesn't help when William Finnie appears to have taken a second Wife also called Christian. I also have an 1841 entry for Rob Chalmers - Occupation Toll Keeper, and like I said 3 of his children had him listed as a Toll Keeper.
Confused ... I am ;D
I would love her to be mine but I will accept that she probably is not, unless I can find another death entry for Robert which could change my mind again.
Regards
Moo
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What are the names of the parents of the siblings whose deaths you have found?
I have found
John 26 jul 1784 Ratho
John 10 nov 1786 Ratho
Christian 22 Apr 1789 Currie
Jannet 01 Apr 1792 Currie
Robert 18 oct 1794 Currie
Thomas 18 oct 1799 Bathgate
George 05 jun 1902 Currie
Jean 05 jun 1902
Parents Robert Chalmers and Janet Bartholomew
Regards
Moo
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Do you mean this death for a Robert Chalmers?
ROBERT CHALMERS
64
20/05/1851
672/30 257
Uphall or Strathbrock
If so, he looks to be too young at death to be the father of children you list above. Born c. 1787?
Some family researcher have linked the death below to the Robert Chalmers married to Christian Black:
ROBT CHALMERS
00/03/1832
662/40 461
Bathgate
Not sure why they have really as his gravestone shows his wife to have been a Margaret Taylor, www.findagrave.com/memorial/132839429/robert-chalmers
Monica
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Monical
Yes it is, but my lot seem to knock years off when they feel like it, again he might not be mine.
Christian Black is not one of mine, well not that I'm aware off.
Regards
Moo
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So what you are really interested in is what happened to Christian Chalmers, born 1789 in Currie, parents Robert Chalmers and Janet Bartholomew?
I am willing to be that she is not the Christian Chalmers who married William Finnie. There are five pieces of evidence suggesting this.
1. Currie is in Midlothian, and Christian Chalmers or Finnie consistently says she was born in West Lothian, and in 1851 she also says Dalmeny.
2. Assuming she lived that long, Christian Chalmers born in 1789 was 52 on the date of the 1841 census and should have been recorded as 50, not 35.
3. Similarly, on the day of the 1851 census she would have been 62, not 50.
4. Christian Chalmers or Finnie's father was a farm servant. Janet Bartholomew's husband was a tollkeeper.
I see Robert Chalmers, aged 75, in Howatson Toll House, Mid Calder, in 1841. If his age is accurate, he would have been born between 8 June 1761 and 7 June 1766 Therefore on the date of baptism of the first recorded child of Robert Chalmers and Janet Bartholomew on 27 July 1784 he was aged between 18 and 23. So he could indeed be 'your' Robert Chalmers. In which case
5. Christian Chalmers or Finnie's father died before 1839; the husband of Janet Bartholomew lived until at least 1841.
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Thank you Forfarian
I did say after reading the St Cuthberts Marriage entry that I didn't think she was mine. I appreciate your being able to help confirm this.
Regards
Moo
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Glad to have helped.
We do seem to have been beating about the bush a bit before reaching a conclusion.
I looked to see if there was a Christ* aged about 62, born Currie, in the 1851 census on FreeCEN. There are two in Midlothian, but one is an unmarried Christina Young, and the other is Christian Napier, wife of Edward Fleming.
Searching FreeCEN for a Christ* born 1789 plus or minus 5 years in Midlothian produces 159 results, which is rather more than I can face ploughing through, but depending on how keen you are you could do the same.