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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Mr.Brown. on Friday 20 November 20 12:08 GMT (UK)
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Hi - hope everyone is keeping well.
I wonder if anyone can help, I need to find the 1842 DOB of a chap called Alfred Henry Cookson who was the illegitimate son of a member of the Chester le street Cookson family but he is not registered.
He lived in Newbiggin by the sea and later Hirst where he died in 1920.
His whereabouts (and possible name) up until 1861 are a mystery, he may have been educated by the Cookson family incognito.
I am wondering if there will be a record of his DOB with the register of electors or his pension or anywhere else I could try? any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks, Gordon.
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How do you know about Alfred Henry, what directed you to him?
I'm assuming you don't know who his mother was i.e. have you searched with forename only for birth/baptism & census'?
Can you also give details of whereabouts in 1861, where born & with who?
Annie
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Hi Annie, I have all his census records from 1861 when he was living with my 3Grrandfather (Thomas Brown) as a Grandson and then all his census records up until his death in 1920 and his grave etc. His mother may have been Ann daughter of this Thomas Brown, but I can not verify this.
I do have some DNA matches to other members of the Alfred Henry Cookson branches but have not been able to find any matches of them to the Chester le street Cookson family.
I have found a potential illegitimate son named David Brown of an Ann who fits into the Brown's location and this is why I want to cross reference the date of birth.
I have been looking into this for a few years and finding his DOB may be the key.
Gordon.
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I doubt without a birth certificate you will get a date of birth unless it has been mentioned on a baptism.
What information does his marriage give for his father if any
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Is this the person you are referring to
David Brown
Baptism 10 Mar 1842
Cresswell, Northumberland
Father John Gibson
Mother Ann Brown
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Hi - Yes that's the person Annie, I suspect could be Alfred Henry Cookson - I have the birth record with dob and that is why I am trying to compare it to AHC's birth date - he/they had 9 kids so there must be a record of it somewhere. I have not been able to find his marriage to Margaret Armstrong either.
There are quite a few other people that have been looking into this but everyone draws a blank.
I know modern register of electors shows dob's of first time voters (18 year olds) but probably not back in 1860! if there was one.
I dont know if people had pensions in 1920 but no doubt would have had to prove their age if there was a pension.
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The baptism names his father as John Gibson.
State pensions did not start until the early 1900's and many people who would have been entitled to them would not have had birth certificates. Although birth registration started in 1837 it was not 'tightened up' until the late 1870's and many births were not registered before that time.
TNA has this information sheet on voting
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/citizenship/struggle_democracy/getting_vote.htm
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There is a David Gibson, 9, born Cresswell, with his grandparents in 1851
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGDN-PJH
Ditto 1861, he is 19, born Woodhorn
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7VG-XM5
Is he the David in Stannington later, a mason?
David and Elizabeth Gibson have a John Gibson, 25, with them in Cresswell in 1841
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7W6-61D
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hi - yes Ive just been reading up on when pensions began in 1909 to people over 70 on a low income so he may well have had a pension later in life.
I have found that sometimes a wealthy family arranged for the illegitimate childs mother to be married off to someone that would look after them and likewise the named father of John Gibson may have just been a stand in at the baptism.
I know its all a bit vague but there are no other records so something has been going on and covered up.
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sorry missed you post while i was typing last message
Yes you findings look as if that could be him in which case it is not AHC so back to square one!
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Can you tell us where Alfred Henry was born from each census record i.e. is the same place given on each?
Is the yob consistent with 1842 or does it vary on census'?
Who is named as his father on his marriage & what occupation does father have?
When did he marry & who to, so people know who can be eliminated?
Annie
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Hi Annie - he is listed as North Shields in 1861 born 1843
Newcastle upon tyne 1871 born 1843 now married to Margaret Armstrong but unable to find a marriage.
Chester le street on 1881 - born 1843
Chester le st 1891 - 1843
cheste le st 1901 - 1843
chester le st 1911 - 1843
Chester le street is where the Cookson gentry lived and his mother was supposedly a house keeper/maid or whatever.
also findagrave chesterle st.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/205290017/alfred-henry-cookson
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A possible...
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1863
Armstrong Margaret Tynemouth 10b 338
Brown Henry Tynemouth 10b 338
Annie
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thanks Annie - think Ill give it a try - date fits with first child...
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Hi,
In case it helps,
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01q28/
"This marriage was at Tynemouth Priory Holy Saviour"
Unfortunately I can't find any records available online for this church,contacting them might help.
Regards,
Daisy
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Thanks Daisy - yes I found the marriage in question on FindMyPast search with a tick next to it as I thought I had already covered all possible name combinations but now just go for it whatever....we'll see....
Gordon.
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Good luck!
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Is this Margaret Armstrong in 1861- Main Street, Newbiggin, her sister Eleanor married to William Brown :-\
William Armstrong 58 occ Fisherman
Eleanor. -Wife -50
Hannah -dtr - widow 38 (listed as Armstrong)
Mary -dtr - 20
Margaret -dtr - 17
William Brown Son In Law- 26
Eleanor Brown Daughter 28
Hunter A Brown Grandson 2
Ann Brown Granddaughter - 10 mths
ALL Born Newbiggin
RG09/3875 Folio 72 Page 35
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Gordon,
Can you tell us where the family were in 1841, who was all listed, ages etc. just prior to the birth of wee Alfred Henry?
If any of their daughters are not at home, have you found where they are which may hold a clue?
Annie
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Alfred Henry Cookson - b 1842/43 North Shields or Chester le Street
1842 - NBL - 0 births - Alfred Brown or Cookson
1842 - NBL - 0 births - Henry Brown or Cookson
1843 - NBL - 0 births - Alfred Brown or Cookson
1843 - NBL - 1 birth - Henry Brown (below) - 0 births Henry Cookson
In terms of distance from N/Shields, this looks like a contender...
Births Sep 1843 - BROWN Henry - Tynemouth - Vol 25 - Pg 400
Annie
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I wonder if Thomas Brown was widowed by the time of the 1841 census? A number of public trees would seem to support this. In 1841 he is recorded in Cresswell as 45 with Ann Brown 25, Margaret Jefferson 25, James Brown 15, Thomas Armstrong 5, Margt. Jefferson 5, James Brown 3 and Elizabeth Jefferson 9mo.
It is quite possible that the young James Brown was the illegitimate son of Ann Brown as there is a baptism in Newbiggen 22 Oct 1837 for James Brown illegitimate son of Ann Brown singlewoman of Cresswell.
The wording on the 1851 census is of interest as the older James Brown is showing as head of the household. Thomas Brown is showing as father but Mary Brown is recorded as mother in law. This may suggest that Thomas Brown remarried between the two censuses. There is a possible marriage to Mary Rughead in Newcastle 14 Aug 1843.
Have you considered that Alfred H Cookson's line might be through Thomas Brown's second wife?
William
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In terms of distance from N/Shields, this looks like a contender...
Births Sep 1843 - BROWN Henry - Tynemouth - Vol 25 - Pg 400
Annie :)
Just popping in to say that the distance between the two places was of no significance in terms of registration. Tynemouth was a very large Registration District which included North Shields.
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Thanks JenB,
I'll be honest, although I'm descended of Newcastle & Durham folk, my knowledge of the areas isn't great.
My thought was, with the little we have to go on & 2 possible areas of birth, I thought the North Shields 1 looked good as Chester le Street seemed quite a bit away?
William...
1842 - NBL - 0 births - Alfred Rughead
1842 - NBL - 0 births - Henry Rughead
1843 - NBL - 0 births - Alfred Rughead
1843 - NBL - 0 births - Henry Rughead
Annie
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Hello to everybody trying to help with this mystery - I am surprised but very grateful to people trying to help.
I do have most of the possible records and relationships on my tree on Ancestry and it may be better if I provide a link so you can see what I have - my user name is gordonbrown86.
The theory about Alfred Henry Cookson was that he was the son of 'one' of Thomas Brown's daughters who worked as a servant to the Cookson family of Chester le street, but I think you have now proved it wasn't Ann - if Ann was Thomas's daughter as I cant find a baptism and the 1841 census doesn't say kinship.
these are the Cookson family in question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meldon_Park
Cheers,
Gordon.
ps i am quite happy to order these possible records just to see - I do have a large collection (£££)of wrong ones!
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In terms of distance from N/Shields, this looks like a contender...
Births Sep 1843 - BROWN Henry - Tynemouth - Vol 25 - Pg 400
Mothers maiden surname Robson
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yes Robson - just beat me to it. no good....
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Thanks Rosie, I think he can be eliminated ;)
Gordon, I'm unsure why you think we've 'proved' Ann wasn't the mother of Alfred Henry?
I think we still have a lot to do yet to prove anything?
Have you found what happened to Ann up until her death & who the informant was?
Annie
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well because there is a census for 1861 with this David Brown/Gibson(1842) on it when we already have AHC (1842?) on an 1861 census with his Grandfather.
One thing I have not found is who the other younger Grandchild on the 1861 census was, may or may not be relevant - could be his brother half brother without the Cookson name - another odd thing is that AHC gets to use the Cookson name when he is illegitimate?
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aparently my user name wont connect to my tree ? they are looking into it....
heres a link
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/85587059/person/250100757042/facts
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Your name on your tree is Gordon Brown - no number 86
Ah, yes, I hadn't realised who David Brown Gibson was & when I read your comment about back to square one it didn't register this was Ann & family ::)
Who was Thomas Brown' 1st wife, when & where married, how many daughters did they have, names & dates please?
Annie
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Thomas Brown's first wife was Margaret Rufhead married in 27 Jan 1808 at Woodhorn but of Cresswell. - possible sister to his second wife Mary.
There is a son Henry of 1808 probably first born then gap to Elizabeth of 1812, Margaret 1815, possible Ann 1816,Mary 1820 (twin of John)
I had speculated that there may be a daugher of second wife Mary from her first marriage.
I have families for all the baptised daughters.
Gordon
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Do you know what happened to Elizabeth, where was she in 1841 as she's not at home with her father & siblings?
Could she have been working away or had she died?
Annie
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It is quite possible that the young James Brown was the illegitimate son of Ann Brown as there is a baptism in Newbiggen 22 Oct 1837 for James Brown illegitimate son of Ann Brown singlewoman of Cresswell.
Does that mean that Ann was also an Armstrong in 1851? Because James Brown, stepson, 13, is in one of the Armstrong families in Newbiggin.
Ann Armstrong, 38, born Cresswell
Piece 2418 folio 482 page 9
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGX7-KCW
Possibles?
ARMSTRONG, MARGARET
Mother's Maiden Surname: BROWN
GRO Reference: 1845 D Quarter in THE MORPETH UNION Volume 25 Page 313
ARMSTRONG, ISABELLA
Mother's Maiden Surname: BROWN
GRO Reference: 1847 J Quarter in THE MORPETH UNION Volume 25 Page 322
Also a Thomas Armstrong, 2, in 1851.
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Maybe :-\
June 1845 Morpeth 25 333
Armstrong, William
Brown, Ann
+ others
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Annie - other trees have Elizabeth married off to an Armstrong (another ahh) but I have not been able to verify it so have never added it to my tree - havent done much research on her....
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jonw65 - yes I have those records on my tree as the same Ann Brown with 2 illigitimate children, David stayed with his fathers family but James was adopted to the Armstrong family - all hypothesis.....
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There's a good possibility the missing Elizabeth in 1841 could be the mother of Alfred Henry i.e. it would be good to know where she was & her occ.
Most of the 1851 census' I've looked at, looking for mother & son, only give England as a PoB which is of no help whatsoever.
Annie
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Hi Annie - its all coming back to me now, I had found a marriage of 'a' Elizabeth Brown to John Armstrong at Woodhorn in 1834 but it doenst give the fathers name on these.
Chances are it is the correct one as some records of her on later census say she is from Cresswell. Its a bit vague but probably her.
In fact I think I will now add the Armstrong records to her...
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Oh, well, If Elizabeth married in 1834 then she isn't likely to be the mother.
Annie
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What about Mary b 1820, what happened to her?
Annie
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yes - I think this will have to go onto the back burner again until I get that marriage you found of Henry Brown - GRO say it will take 7 days but I normally get them well in advance - probably because I'm their best paying customer!
I've got Mary married in 1839 to Wm Taylor...
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see if you can follow this - if AHC was a child of a child of Tom's second wife (Mary) from her first marriage to unknown & if Mary was the sister of Margaret (Toms first wife) i think I would still have a distant DNA match to the family of AHCookson (as I have Rufhead dna) from his Maternal side and the Grandson on the 1861 census could be referring to AHC as the grandson of his wife....
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In all honesty it's difficult to say one way or another.
The relationship on census' is of that to the 'Head'...
I've seen many census' with step - children referred to in different ways i.e. it's not impossible.
Another thought I had was, could Alfred Henry have been a g g/child rather than g/child?
I also started to wonder if one of the married daughters had had an affair...
What were the names of Alfred Henry' daughters in order?
The question is, is any of them named after his mother?
Annie