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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: annby on Saturday 21 November 20 18:17 GMT (UK)
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My gg grandfather Alexander McIntyre was born in Morvern, probably in 1815 to Donald McIntyre and Isobel McInnes, who married in Glasgow in 1812. He married Sarah/Sally/Marion McPherson in 1842 in Morvern - she was born in 1815 in Glasgow to Malcolm McPherson and Flory Black. Alexander, Sarah and their children were in Morvern (1841, 1851 census) until they were evicted from Aulisten on the Drimnin Estate by Lady Drummond. The family went to Muckairn (1861) then Oban (1871 and 1881).
There are two things I’d like to request help with please, one specific and one more general.
First, I’ve not been able to find Alexander’s death certificate. He is on the 1881 census in Oban, living with two of his children, Colin and Flora, wife Sarah having died in 1874. There is an Alexander McIntyre who died in Oban in 1881. However, his date of death was before the 1881 census was taken and, from the parent details given, I can track him and see that he is a different man who, like my gg grandfather, appears on the various censuses. I wondered if my Alexander was with another potentially surviving child, Duncan b 1847 or Mary Margaret, b 1854, or even a sibling, Donald b 1817 or Peggy b 1825. I’ve not had success in tracking these children/siblings.
Second, I’m intrigued by the Glasgow-Morvern connection. I’d thought that movement would be in the other direction, from the country to the city, but obviously both Alexander and Sarah’s parents spent time in Glasgow before arriving in (or returning to?) Morvern. I’d be really grateful if anyone could shed light on this, including pointing me to wider reading – I’ve learnt a lot from Philip Gaskell’s Morvern Transformed.
Thank you.
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There is a brith/ baptism record on Scotland's People, for Alexander MacIntyre 19/06/1815 Morvern, with parents Donald MacIntyre and Isobel MacInnis.
Using that year of birth there are a few deaths to consider, but none in Oban.
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None are him, unfortunately. He’s very elusive!
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Have you looked outside of Scotland?
This is possibly the son Duncan in 1901, Cheshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS66-B37
and Duncan's marriage in 1899
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQNQ-R2P
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That looks promising. Duncan’s grandfather Malcolm McPherson was an innkeeper and trades often run in families.
I do suspect Alexander died outside of Scotland.
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Quite often when a death was registered ages were guessed & often out by a few yrs or more.
You haven't said whether you'd looked at other possibles?
I used a birth yr of 1815 +/- 10 & there are 3 not counting the 1881 chap although the Campbeltown one would seem unlikely?
Annie
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More detail needed for Mary Margaret McIntyre. I cannot find a birth in 1854.
What is the exact date and place?
Here is a possible for Donald McIntyre born 1817
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC3Q-BSD
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Birth registration in Scotland began in 1855 i.e. a baptism prior to then is the only likely means which may not record the actual birth date if it has survived.
Annie
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Had a look on Scotland's People. Could not find him in Oban on 1871 or 1881 census
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Thanks, everyone. Here’s more detail as requested.
Baptisms of Alexander and Sarah/Marion’s children, all at Drimnin St Columba’s RC, possibly under employer influence from the Drummonds.
MCINTYN DUNCAN to ALEXANDER MCINTYN/SARA MCPHERSON
birth 5/3/1847 / baptism 7/3/1847
MACINTYRE JOHN to ALEXANDER MACINTYRE/MARION MACPHERSON
baptism 18/6/1851
MACINTYRE MARY MARGARET to ALEXR MACINTYRE/MARION MACHERSON
baptism 2/7/1854
MACINTYRE FLORA to ALEXR MACINTYRE/MARION MACPHERSON
baptism 7/6/1858
In the 1851 census, the family is at Aulisten, Morvern – Alexander, Sarah and a 2 year old son, Colin. Not sure if this is another child or Duncan with a different age and name as there’s fluidity of both in the records.
In the 1861 census, they’re at Kirktown, Muckairn - Colin, 11, John 9, Margaret 7, and Flora, my g grandmother, 3.
In 1864, John, aged 15, dies in the Infirmary in Inverness – death cert gives parents as Alexander and Sarah MS McPherson and cause of death smallpox
In 1871, Alexander, Sarah, Colin and Flora are in Oban
In 1874, Sarah dies in Oban - death cert gives husband as Alexander and parents as Malcolm McPherson, inn keeper, and Flora McPherson MS Black and cause of death consumption
In 1881, Alexander, Colin and Flora are in Oban,
In 1891, Colin and Flora are in Oban, with George Davidson, my g grandfather as a boarder
In 1898, Colin dies, having been badly burnt in a fishing boat accident
In 1901, Flora dies, never having married George but having a handful of children with him, including George, my grandfather. Not to get sidetracked but Flora appears to have been in and out of Inverary Jail from the late 1870s onwards.
So the mysteries are:
1. Alexander’s death – I’ve now looked at all SP death certs that could be in scope and ruled them out, hence my thought that he died outside Scotland
2. Mary Margaret, who I can’t trace with any certainty after 1861, though there’s an 1871 Oban census entry for a Margaret McIntyre, a 16 year old servant in Oban which could be her
3. Duncan/Colin – are these definitely two separate sons? Duncan isn’t documented with the family after his birth and I can’t find a baptism record for Colin or a death record for Duncan.
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He is definitely on both censuses in Oban - High Street in 1871 and Argyll Square in 1881.
MCINTYRE
ALEXANDER
1871
M
66
523/ 2/ 13
Kilmore and Kilbride
MCINTYRE
ALEXANDER
1881
M
74
523/ 4/ 6
Kilmore and Kilbride
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My working assumption is that this is Alexander’s baptism:
MACINTYRE ALEXANDER
DONALD MACINTYRE/ISOBEL MACINNIS FR22 (FR22)
M
19/06/1815
528/10 30
Morvern
And so these the baptisms of two siblings:
MACINTYRE DONALD
DONALD MACINTYRE/ISOBEL MACINNIS FR24 (FR24)
M
12/02/1817
528/10 34
Morvern
MCINTYRE PEGGY
DONALD MCINTYRE/ISOBEL MCINNES FR70 (FR70)
F
22/12/1825
528/20 16
Morvern
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Ah! Kilmore & Kilbride, not Oban & the age puts his birth around 1805/1807.
What ages were on previous census?
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Have you looked outside of Scotland?
This is possibly the son Duncan in 1901, Cheshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS66-B37
I think Duncan’s death ( age 57) is registered June 1904, Nantwich, Cheshire.
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Ah! Kilmore & Kilbride, not Oban & the age puts his birth around 1805/1807.
What ages were on previous census?
Think Oban is within Kilmore and Kilbride? It says Oban at the top of the census pages. Sorry if I misled...
You're right to ask about ages! Fluidity is an understatement. I've gone for the 1815 baptism record above because that's the only Alexander McIntyre in Morvern between 1802 and 1818 and the censuses are consistent in giving Morvern as his birthplace. But it's debatable...
Census ages are:
1841 - 30
1851 - 40
1861 - 50
1871 - 66
1881 - 74
It looks as if 1871 is the real outlier.
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Have you considered that as a fisherman, he may have been lost at sea, and there was no record of his death?
have you searched newspapers for any reference to him?
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Have you looked outside of Scotland?
This is possibly the son Duncan in 1901, Cheshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS66-B37
I think Duncan’s death ( age 57) is registered June 1904, Nantwich, Cheshire.
Thank you! I assume I could order the certificate from GRO though I understand English death certs don't give parents' names. Having said that, this Duncan is definitely a possible (shades of Oasis's Definitely Maybe on a Sunday morning).
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Have you considered that as a fisherman, he may have been lost at sea, and there was no record of his death?
have you searched newspapers for any reference to him?
That's a good thought. I'm newish to genealogy and haven't yet got into using a wider range of resources, including newspaper archives.
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yes, you can get Duncan’s death cert from GRO, but it will not give his parents names.
His 1899 marriage record might give you more information that could prove useful.
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If Alexander was the son of Donald & Isabel, I would have expected some of his children to be named after them or himself & Sarah
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If Alexander was the son of Donald & Isabel, I would have expected some of his children to be named after them or himself & Sarah
I’m thinking along the same lines. I am interested in the name Flora as perhaps a family name.
What information do you have for the parents of Sarah Marion MacPherson?
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If Alexander was the son of Donald & Isabel, I would have expected some of his children to be named after them or himself & Sarah
Yes, I'm worried about that too. I persuaded myself (Mary) Margaret, his daughter, was named for Peggy (potentially Alexander's sister and perhaps herself named for a grandmother), Flora for her maternal grandmother and Duncan/Colin and John for unknown grandfathers. I also wondered if the RC baptisms, perhaps coercive to a degree, affected naming. But all speculative and indeed tenuous.
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If Alexander was the son of Donald & Isabel, I would have expected some of his children to be named after them or himself & Sarah
I’m thinking along the same lines. I am interested in the name Flora as perhaps a family name.
What information do you have for the parents of Sarah Marion MacPherson?
Alexander's wife's Sarah's 1874 death certificate gives her parents as Malcolm McPherson and Flory Black. I've assumed this is her birth/baptismal record:
MCPHERSON SALLY
MALCOLM MCPHERSON/FLORY BLACK
F
30/10/1815
5/11/1815
Glasgow, St Andrew's
so there is potentially a Flory/Flora naming link. I've not found any other info for this couple.
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can you check the 1851 census, and post all the details.
I cannot find them in Morvern, as you say they are.
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1851 census: Aulestin, Morvern, Argyll
Alexander McIntyre Head Mar 40 General labourer and crofter Morven
Sarah McIntyre Wife Mar 33 Morven
Colin McIntyre Son 2 Morven
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Where is the son Duncan born c. 1847 that is being mentioned in the early family censuses?
Monica
Added:
MCINTYN DUNCAN to ALEXANDER MCINTYN/SARA MCPHERSON
birth 5/3/1847 / baptism 7/3/1847
See now there was an early birth. He must have likely died young as he doesn't show in any census with the family :-\
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1861 Census: Kirktown, Muckairn, Argyll
Alexander McIntyre, 50, wood cutter
Sarah McIntyre, 39
Colin McIntyre, 11
John McIntyre, 9
Margaret McIntyre, 7
Flora McIntyre, 3
1871 Census: 6 High Street, presumably Oban
Alexander McIntyre, 66, fisherman
Sarah McIntyre, 53
Colin McIntyre, 20 fisherman
Flora McIntyre, 12
1881 Census:
Alexander McIntyre, 74
Colin McIntyre, 28
Flora McIntyre, 22
all born Argyll.
I have not found a Duncan, and I can't find any of them after 1881.
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I think this is their entry for 1891:
Colin McIntyre 45 fisherman b. Morvern
George Davidson 32 boarder pedler b. Alva
Flora Davidson 32 boarder b. Morvern....I think this is Colin's sister
Address: 7 Combie St Back, Oban
This is Colin's last census before his death.
Monica
Added: Can't see a Davidson/McIntyre marriage.
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There is a Duncan of the right age visiting another McIntyre family in 1861
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141901f4040b9d6e010d39/duncan-mcintyre-1861-argyllshire-morvern-1848-?locale=en
The names in the family that he is visiting make me wonder if they are related to the family we are trying to make sense of.
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On Colin's death certificate 1898, I assume his father is deceased - can you confirm please.
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I think this is their entry for 1891
Yes. I was looking for Colin with a birthdate of 1849 plus or minus two years, which is why I failed to find him.
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On Colin's death certificate 1898, I assume his death is deceased - can you confirm please.
Yes, Alexander, occupation fisherman, is deceased on Colin’s death certificate.
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There is a Duncan of the right age visiting another McIntyre family in 1861
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141901f4040b9d6e010d39/duncan-mcintyre-1861-argyllshire-morvern-1848-?locale=en
The names in the family that he is visiting make me wonder if they are related to the family we are trying to make sense of.
An interesting one. There are three Duncan hypotheses: died very young; brought up in another family; known as Colin.
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I think this is their entry for 1891:
Colin McIntyre 45 fisherman b. Morvern
George Davidson 32 boarder pedler b. Alva
Flora Davidson 32 boarder b. Morvern....I think this is Colin's sister
Address: 7 Combie St Back, Oban
This is Colin's last census before his death.
Monica
Added: Can't see a Davidson/McIntyre marriage.
That’s the family. Flora seems to have gone by the name of Davidson though I don’t believe she and George married. Their children’s births were registered by both of them and noted as illegitimate.
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I think you found the correct Margaret in 1871 working as a domestic srvant.
This 1881 census record had me interested, as I thought it might be Margaret. Note the names of her children Sarah and Alexander. Of course I can't find a suitable marriage for them. >:(
Of course, maybe they were not married.
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It is always difficult when there is no baptism records for any of Alexander & Sarah's children
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It is always difficult when there is no baptism records for any of Alexander & Sarah's children
Baptisms were Roman Catholic - see post #9
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Think this is the marriage for Duncan McIntyre referred to
24 June 1899 Crewe
Duncan McIntyre 52 widower ironmonger residence Kensington, Liverpool Father Alexander McIntyre quarry - next word is very hard to make out!
Sarah Jane Lowndes 50 widow Licensed Victualler
Seems the wrong occupation for Alexander.
There is a Duncan McIntyre in West Derby, Lancs. in the 1891 census. Age 46 Ironmongers Manager with wife Sarah 42 and daughters Marjory 19 and Agnes S 14. All born Scotland.
William
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Thanks William. That's very useful, because I think we can discount that Duncan now.
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I think you found the correct Margaret in 1871 working as a domestic srvant.
This 1881 census record had me interested, as I thought it might be Margaret. Note the names of her children Sarah and Alexander. Of course I can't find a suitable marriage for them. >:(
Of course, maybe they were not married.
Inevitably no marriage certificate... Morvern birthplace, date and children’s names are indeed intriguing.
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Reply to Neale1961
Alexander & Sarah's marriage in 1842 is on C of S Morvern Parish records, not RC
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Reply to Neale1961
Alexander & Sarah's marriage in 1842 is on C of S Morvern Parish records, not RC
I agree. You asked about baptisms.
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I’m just thinking out loud ….....
From the census we can see that Alexander was quite a bit older than his wife – about 10 years. So that puts his birth more around 1805, therefore I suspect that the one you have for 1815, is not right.
The other thing to note about the census is that his wife Sarah/Marion was born in Glasgow but is always recorded on the census as born Morven. We know that is wrong, so do we believe that Alexander’s birth place as Morven is correct ?
Why the Catholic baptism of the children? Rather strange, as Sarah MacPherson was not baptised RC. Sarah and Alexander’s marriage was not RC. Was Alexander Catholic, and if so, how does that affect a search for his birth and death?
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I’m just thinking out loud ….....
From the census we can see that Alexander was quite a bit older than his wife – about 10 years. So that puts his birth more around 1805, therefore I suspect that the one you have for 1815, is not right.
The other thing to note about the census is that his wife Sarah/Marion was born in Glasgow but is always recorded on the census as born Morven. We know that is wrong, so do we believe that Alexander’s birth place as Morven is correct ?
Why the Catholic baptism of the children? Rather strange, as Sarah MacPherson was not baptised RC. Sarah and Alexander’s marriage was not RC. Was Alexander Catholic, and if so, how does that affect a search for his birth and death?
I’ve mused on those things too.
1. Alexander’s age/dob - we can infer from the 1841/51/61 censuses he was born around 1811, so, given general looseness with ages, the 1815 baptism seemed a possibility. It’s the 1871/81 censuses that throw this out - and Sarah’s supposedly being younger.
2. I agree about places of birth. It’s possible that Alexander, like Sarah, was born elsewhere.
3. Sarah’s baptism in Glasgow was RC and their marriage CoS. The likely explanation of their children’s RC baptisms was pressure from the owners of the Drimmin Estate, Lord and Lady Gordon, who were fervent Roman Catholics. There’s reference to this on the history section of the Drimmin Estate website, as well as more detailed background, including on Aulisten, where they lived, being cleared, in Gaskell’s Morvern Transformed.
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Sarah’s baptism in Glasgow was RC. The likely explanation of their children’s RC baptisms was pressure from the owners of the Drimmin Estate, Lord and Lady Gordon, who were fervent Roman Catholics. There’s reference to this on the history section of the Drimmin Estate website, as well as more detailed background, including on Aulisten, where they lived, being cleared, in Gaskell’s Morvern Transformed.
Ah, that explains it. Interesting. Thanks
What information is there on Alexander and Sarah's marriage record?
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Just checked Sarah’s 1874 death certificate. It has her as 50 implying a 1824 birth. But the 1815 Glasgow baptism is convincing, with parents’ names matching her death certificate. So maybe Sarah lied/was unsure about her age?
Think that strengthens the case for Alexander’s Morvern baptism record though it’s not 100%.
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There’s minimal info on their
1842 marriage record. Alexander McIntyre Aulisten [which was helpful in pinning him down in the 1841/52 censuses] and Sarah McPherson and the date.
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Just checked Sarah’s 1874 death certificate. It has her as 50 implying a 1824 birth. But the 1815 Glasgow baptism is convincing, with parents’ names matching her death certificate. So maybe Sarah lied/was unsure about her age?
Think that strengthens the case for Alexander’s Morvern baptism record though it’s not 100%.
Unless the 1815 record was for a sister who died?
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There is no other Alexander McIntyre of a similar age born in Morven in any census record that I can find.
I think the evidence is becoming stronger that the birth record for Alexander in 1815 Morven is the correct one, even though ages and dates don’t line up well. Have you downloaded this record, and does it give any more than just names? - place, fathers occupation? I am also wondering if he might have been baptised as a young child rather than at birth.
In the absence of a death certificate, I would suggest searching the local papers to see if there is any mention of him.
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There is an 81-year-old Alexander McIntyre, born Morvern, in Alloa in 1901. He's 74 in 1891, 62 in 1881, 53 in 1871, 44 in 1861 and 34 in 1851. So he was born in Morvern between 1816 and 1820, but he's obviously not yours as he had settled in Clackmannanshire by 1851.
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There is an 81-year-old Alexander McIntyre, born Morvern, in Alloa in 1901. He's 74 in 1891, 62 in 1881, 53 in 1871, 44 in 1861 and 34 in 1851. So he was born in Morvern between 1816 and 1820, but he's obviously not yours as he had settled in Clackmannanshire by 1851.
So the question is whether he’s the 1815 baptism - ruling it out for my Alexander - or this 1820 baptism, leaving the 1815 in play. MACINTYRE ALEXANDER
PETER MACINTYRE/CATHERINE SMITH
8/02/1820
528/20 3
Morvern
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His DC would hopefully confirm parents...
1911 - MCINTYRE ALEXANDER 92 - 465/A 114 Alloa (Clackmannan)
Looks like the above aged 94 yrs on census...
1911 - MCINTYRE ALEXANDER - 94 - 465/A 10/ 21 Alloa Clackmannan
Annie
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His DC would hopefully confirm parents...
1911 - MCINTYRE ALEXANDER 92 - 465/A 114 Alloa (Clackmannan)
Looks like the above aged 94 yrs on census...
1911 - MCINTYRE ALEXANDER - 94 - 465/A 10/ 21 Alloa Clackmannan
Annie
Sadly no parents are given on Alloa Alexander's death certificate, but we can probably rule him out as he's given as the widower of Janet Stewart and I can't see an entry for a late marriage. There is a record of a marriage between an Alexander McIntyre and Janet Stewart in Aberfoyle/Kilmadock in November 1841. So the evidence suggests that Alloa Alexander, born in Morvern, is the 1820 baptism record.
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There is no other Alexander McIntyre of a similar age born in Morven in any census record that I can find.
I think the evidence is becoming stronger that the birth record for Alexander in 1815 Morven is the correct one, even though ages and dates don’t line up well. Have you downloaded this record, and does it give any more than just names? - place, fathers occupation? I am also wondering if he might have been baptised as a young child rather than at birth.
In the absence of a death certificate, I would suggest searching the local papers to see if there is any mention of him.
Nothing significant to be gleaned from the baptism records of Alexander or the other two children born to Donald McIntyre and Isobel Macinnis.
Alexander 1815 - Donald is a residenter [think this means living and working at?] Munga[sdail?], which is on the neighbouring estate to Aulisten, just down the Morvern coast
Donald 1817 - as above
Peggy 1825 - he's a crofter at Kyle, which I think will be Keil, part of the Lochaline Estate and again just along the Morvern coast
Agree I need to look at other sources, including newspapers and probably Flora's Inveraray Jail records. She was there often enough!
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Children of Alloa Alexander McIntyre and Janet Stewart (from census and IGI - none in SP church records)
Catherine 1844/5
Angus 1846/7
Alexander 1848/9
Isabella 1851/2
Hugh 1853/4
John 26 November 1855
Margaret 5 April 1858
John Duncan 27 November 1860
Elizabeth 27 September 1863
So there are potential gaps before Catherine and possibly between Alexander and Hugh. John's 1855 birth certificate should clarify this and might even shed some light on this Alexander's birthplace.
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Children of Alloa Alexander McIntyre and Janet Stewart (from census and IGI - none in SP church records)
Catherine 1844/5
Angus 1846/7
Alexander 1848/9
Isabella 1851/2
Hugh 1853/4
John 26 November 1855
Margaret 5 April 1858
John Duncan 27 November 1860
Elizabeth 27 September 1863
So there are potential gaps before Catherine and possibly between Alexander and Hugh. John's 1855 birth certificate should clarify this and might even shed some light on this Alexander's birthplace.
Just had a look at the 1855 birth certificate. It confirms Alloa Alexander's birthplace as Morvern. Frustratingly, it gives his age as 38, implying a birth year of 1817, bang in the middle of the 1815 and 1820 Morvern baptisms. The 1815 baptism could still be him so this doesn't help to confirm or exclude it as my Alexander's. 1820 is definitely too late for mine. John is the couple's seventh child so you're right someone's missing.
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How frustrating!
But .... if Janet Stewart's parents are Angus and Catherine, and if the missing child was a boy born before Catherine, it might hint at Alloa Alexander's mother being Isabella. OTOH there is no Janet so they may not have been following the naming tradition at all.
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In the frustrations around Alexander McIntyre, I found an another Alexander, an Alexander McPherson who I think could be brother to Sarah.
This Alexander, a mariner, only appears in one census that I can see (haven't looked for 1841) before his death in 1881 in Oban. He married an Ann McRae (3 March 1846 in Strath) and this is the family in 1851:
Alexander Mc Pherson 30 fisherman b. Glasgow
Ann Mc Pherson 29 b. Lochalsh, Ross
Catharine Mc Pherson 10 Months b. Lochalsh, Ross www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBSC-L6J
Janet Mc Rae 18 sister in law b. Strath
Address: Dunan, Strath, Inverness
Additional confirmation with Alexander showing Glasgow as his birth place that the entry you have for Sarah is likely the correct one.
Two more children showing in later censuses, Norman born pre 1855? and Flora www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYPV-LBH
Catherine, daughter, reported his death and looks to have put Sarah Black for his mother rather than Flora.
Monica
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In the frustrations around Alexander McIntyre, I found an another Alexander, an Alexander McPherson who I think could be brother to Sarah.
This Alexander, a mariner, only appears in one census that I can see (haven't looked for 1841) before his death in 1881 in Oban. He married an Ann McRae (3 March 1846 in Strath) and this is the family in 1851:
Alexander Mc Pherson 30 fisherman b. Glasgow
Ann Mc Pherson 29 b. Lochalsh, Ross
Catharine Mc Pherson 10 Months b. Lochalsh, Ross www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBSC-L6J
Janet Mc Rae 18 sister in law b. Strath
Address: Dunan, Strath, Inverness
Additional confirmation with Alexander showing Glasgow as his birth place that the entry you have for Sarah is likely the correct one.
Two more children showing in later censuses, Norman born pre 1855? and Flora www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYPV-LBH
Catherine reported his death and looks to have put Sarah Black for his mother rather than Flora.
Monica
Thank you, Monica. I’ve not focused on Sarah’s family, beyond a fairly cursory and unsuccessful look for Malcolm and Flory. John, Alexander and Sarah’s son, died aged 15 in Inverness, and the location puzzled me. This makes sense of it.
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Also worth noting that Neale1961 found a possible McCrae link for Margaret, Alexander and Sarah’s daughter.
Will pick this up again tomorrow.
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The Margaret with John McRae in 1881 might be Margaret McLean. Marriage for this couple in 1876 in St Clement Dundee where daughter Sarah was born in 1875.
Monica
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The Margaret with John McRae in 1881 might be Margaret McLean. Marriage for this couple in 1876 in St Clement Dundee where daughter Sarah was born in 1875.
Monica
I agree, that seems likely. There was a Margaret McLean born in Morvern about 1856.
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I wanted to thank everyone for their time and expertise in helping me with my McIntyre line. I’ve learnt a lot, not least that the struggle to find Alexander’s death certificate wasn’t because I’m a newbie! I now have a couple of leads, including on the McPherson line, where I’ve found yet another sibling for Sarah and know that Malcolm McPherson, my 3xg grandfather, was a soldier/innkeeper who came from Uist. So I’ve plenty to go at for now and I’m sure I’ll post again in the future.
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In 1864, John, aged 15, dies in the Infirmary in Inverness – death cert gives parents as Alexander and Sarah MS McPherson and cause of death smallpox.
Just curious. Why would John have been taken to hospital all the way to Inverness? It's a long way from any other places the family was in, and not even in the same county. What does it say his usual residence was?
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In 1864, John, aged 15, dies in the Infirmary in Inverness – death cert gives parents as Alexander and Sarah MS McPherson and cause of death smallpox.
Just curious. Why would John have been taken to hospital all the way to Inverness? It's a long way from any other places the family was in, and not even in the same county. What does it say his usual residence was?
The McPherson family seems to have had links with the county, though not necessarily the city. I wondered if the McIntyre family moved about after being cleared/evicted from Morvern - in 1861 they're in Muckairn before settling in Oban by 1871. I've attached John's death certificate - I can't read his occupation but think I'm right that no usual address is given, just the Infirmary. The death was registered in the parish of Inverness in the county of Inverness.
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Interesting.
Inverness-shire is a very large county, and it's about 110 miles by road now from Oban to Inverness. Even Fort William to Inverness is 65 miles.
In the 1860s it would have been much further by road from Oban, because the road had to go all the way round Loch Creran and Loch Leven. It also required at least one ferry crossing, at Connel, and there was another at Ballachulish which would have avoided the long trek round Loch Leven.
It would have been possible to go by boat on the Caledonian Canal, and possibly to go by boat from the northern part of Argyll to Fort William before changing boats for the canal. I'm not sure whether there were steamers on those routes in 1864, or whether the whole thing would have had to be done under sail.
They couldn't have gone by train because there were no trains to Oban until 1880, or to Fort William until 1894.
Any of those journeys would have taken days in the mid-1800s, and it seems extremely unlkely that you would take a 13-year-old child suffering from smallpox on such a journey, quite apart from the fact that you wouldn't want to have an infectious sufferer on boats, never mind in a coach or on a cart.
Even for a healthy person just travelling from Oban/Lorn/Ardnamurchan to Inverness would have been a fairly major journey, not to be undertaken at the drop of a hat. So there must have been a good reason why John was admitted to hospital in Inverness.
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Interesting.
Inverness-shire is a very large county, and it's about 110 miles by road now from Oban to Inverness. Even Fort William to Inverness is 65 miles.
In the 1860s it would have been much further by road from Oban, because the road had to go all the way round Loch Creran and Loch Leven. It also required at least one ferry crossing, at Connel, and there was another at Ballachulish which would have avoided the long trek round Loch Leven.
It would have been possible to go by boat on the Caledonian Canal, and possibly to go by boat from the northern part of Argyll to Fort William before changing boats for the canal. I'm not sure whether there were steamers on those routes in 1864, or whether the whole thing would have had to be done under sail.
They couldn't have gone by train because there were no trains to Oban until 1880, or to Fort William until 1894.
Any of those journeys would have taken days in the mid-1800s, and it seems extremely unlkely that you would take a 13-year-old child suffering from smallpox on such a journey, quite apart from the fact that you wouldn't want to have an infectious sufferer on boats, never mind in a coach or on a cart.
Even for a healthy person just travelling from Oban/Lorn/Ardnamurchan to Inverness would have been a fairly major journey, not to be undertaken at the drop of a hat. So there must have been a good reason why John was admitted to hospital in Inverness.
Thank you - that’s helpful. My hunch is that the family may have been nearer to Inverness in 1864. For instance, one of Sarah’s brothers was born in Fort William and it could be that they moved between places they had family connections.
I must also learn more about the approach to smallpox in 1864.
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My hunch is that the family may have been nearer to Inverness in 1864. For instance, one of Sarah’s brothers was born in Fort William and it could be that they moved between places they had family connections.
Indeed. But Fort William is still at least two days' journey from Inverness in mid-19th century terms, even though it is in Inverness-shire.
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My hunch is that the family may have been nearer to Inverness in 1864. For instance, one of Sarah’s brothers was born in Fort William and it could be that they moved between places they had family connections.
Indeed. But Fort William is still at least two days' journey from Inverness in mid-19th century terms, even though it is in Inverness-shire.
Do you have any theories, Forfarian?
I've still got a lot to find out about Sarah's family - her father was a soldier presumably before he was an innkeeper and one brother was a mariner. So I do wonder if the family was more itinerant than some and if she had a relation who settled in/near Inverness who John was staying with when he contracted smallpox. I may be quite wrong!
The death certificate does seem to be him - age and parents' names check out and, unlike Colin, Mary and Flora, he appears on no further censuses with or near the family.
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It's possible that he was visiting someone when he fell ill.
It might be worth trying for the Inverness Royal Infirmary records. They are in the care of the Highland Archive Centre https://www.highlifehighland.com/highland-archive-centre/ so why nor drop them an e-mail?
As for McPhersons, the only places mentioned in this thread as associated with them are Glasgow and Strath. Strath is on the Isle of Skye. Not quite as far as it's possible to be from Inverness but still bein the county, but Dunan is 12 miles from Kyleakin and it's another 80 miles by road from Kyle of Lochalsh (the other side of the ferry from Kyleakin) to Inverness. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.27780&lon=-5.99403&layers=5&b=1
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It's possible that he was visiting someone when he fell ill.
It might be worth trying for the Inverness Royal Infirmary records. They are in the care of the Highland Archive Centre https://www.highlifehighland.com/highland-archive-centre/ so why nor drop them an e-mail?
Thank you - I will do. Useful to know about as another of my paternal lines, the Davidsons, were in Inverness from the early 1800s.
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...where I’ve found yet another sibling for Sarah and know that Malcolm McPherson, my 3xg grandfather, was a soldier/innkeeper who came from Uist.
Just curious...
What is the source from Malcolm father coming from Uist?
Monica
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...where I’ve found yet another sibling for Sarah and know that Malcolm McPherson, my 3xg grandfather, was a soldier/innkeeper who came from Uist.
Just curious...
What is the source from Malcolm father coming from Uist?
Monica
I found this RC baptism which looks to be another of Sarah McPherson's brothers:
MACPHERSON
DONALD
MALCOLM MACPHERSON/FLORA BLACK
M
3/3/1822
13/3/1822
Fort William, The Immaculate Conception
Am I reading Uist right, do you think?
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Yes, that looks like Uist.
Could account for the family being Catholic because South Uist is one of the areas where Catholicism continued while most of the country turned Protestant.
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That is great :) It certainly does show Uist.
Looking at possible records re his military service, the closest I could see to match is this one https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8808959
My concern with this one is initially his age. Showing as aged 54 when discharged in 1814.
There was also this one https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8708631 but who knows what the mistranscription of origin place may be. Showing as MYHATH, Invernessshire
Two more show:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8912101
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8888948
Monica
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https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8708631
says his birth parish is 'Myhath in or near the town of Inverness in the county of Inverness'. I am clean out of ideas as to where 'Myhath' might be, but I don't think that anywhere in Uist could by any stretch of the most elastic imagination be described as 'near the town of Inverness' so I think this has to be a different Malcolm McPherson.
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Agree :) I think we can take this entry off the table...
Monica
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That is great :) It certainly does show Uist.
Looking at possible records re his military service, the closest I could see to match is this one https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8808959
My concern with this one is initially his age. Showing as aged 54 when discharged in 1814.
There was also this one https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8708631 but who knows what the mistranscription of origin place may be. Showing as MYHATH, Invernessshire
Two more show:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8912101
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8888948
Monica
It is exciting. I'm very pleased with all my newfound Scottish ancestry - I was brought up in NW England, where I still live, by English parents.
Thank you for refocusing me on the McPhersons, Monica - Malcolm would be my 3xgreat grandfather. It'll be tomorrow when I get to your links and try to learn more about him ;D
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https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8912101
NA Catalogue says born Kinlussie which is probably Kingussie - again, nowhere near Uist.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8888948
Catalogue says born Laggan, Inverness-shire. Next door to Kingussie and nowhere near Uist.
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Looking at possible records re his military service, the closest I could see to match is this one https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8808959
I can't find that one, but the NA catalogue says born in the Long Island, Inverness-shire, and Uist is part of the Long Island so it's probably the right one.
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It was that Malcolm's age that bothered me, 54 when discharged in 1814. We would then have him in Glasgow with the birth of Sarah there in 1815.
Monica
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It was that Malcolm's age that bothered me, 54 when discharged in 1814. We would then have him in Glasgow with the birth of Sarah there in 1815.
Yes, 54 seems quite old to be still serving in the army.
Maybe someone else will have more success than I had finding that record.
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https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8708631
says his birth parish is 'Myhath in or near the town of Inverness in the county of Inverness'. I am clean out of ideas as to where 'Myhath' might be, but I don't think that anywhere in Uist could by any stretch of the most elastic imagination be described as 'near the town of Inverness' so I think this has to be a different Malcolm McPherson.
My guess on this would be Strath, Skye, Inverness-shire?
Annie
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his birth parish is 'Myhath in or near the town of Inverness in the county of Inverness'. I am clean out of ideas as to where 'Myhath' might be
My guess on this would be Strath, Skye, Inverness-shire?
See what you make of it.
Strath is on the Isle of Skye. Not quite as far as it's possible to be from Inverness but still be in the county, but Dunan is 12 miles from Kyleakin and it's another 80 miles by road from Kyle of Lochalsh (the other side of the ferry from Kyleakin) to Inverness. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.27780&lon=-5.99403&layers=5&b=1
If it had been Strath it would surely have said 'in or near the town of Portree'? The one born in Laggan says, 'In or near the town of Cluny' and it is much closer to Inverness than Strath is.
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Something else that's bothering me.
Have we seen Sally/Sarah McPherson's baptism? How can she be legitimate if her younger full brother Donald is illegitimate?
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Good point, Forfarian.
Long post alert! It might be helpful – for me anyway – to summarise what we have on Sarah and the McPherson family.
We are confident:
Marriage
MCINTYRE ALEXANDER (from Aulisten)
SARAH MCPHERSON
02/02/1842
528/20 106 Morvern
Named as Marion MacPherson with Alexander at children’s RC baptisms at Drimnin, St Columba’s, Morvern
1851 (Aulister, Morvern aged 33), 1861 (Kirktown, Muckairn aged 39) and 1871 (High Street, Oban aged 53) – with Alexander and relevant children, with Morvern consistently given as place of birth
Death
MCINTYRE SARAH
50
BLACK
1874
523/ 84
Kilmore and Kilbride
She died at High Street, Oban, married to Alexander McIntyre, general labourer, who notified the death, with parents’ names Malcolm McPherson, innkeeper, dec [I think I see a question mark] and Flora McPherson MS Black.
We’re speculating that, as there are age inconsistencies with implied birth years 1818-1824, there may be birthplace inconsistencies too, so:
RC baptism
MCPHERSON SALLY (lawful)
MALCOLM MCPHERSON/FLORY BLACK
F
30/10/1815
5/11/1815
Glasgow, St Andrew's
There are possible siblings:
ALEXANDER MCPHERSON b abt 1816-1820 (see Monica’s #57)
1851 census aged 30, born Glasgow, at Dunan, Strath, Inverness-shire, with wife Ann, daughter Catherine aged 10 mo and sister-in-law Janet McCrae
1881 census aged 65, born Fort William, at Argyll Street, Oban, with wife Ann, children Catherine, Norman and Flora and sister-in-law Janet McCrae
d 1881 Oban, aged 61, with parents named as Malcolm McPherson, soldier, and Flora McPherson MS Black
MACPHERSON DONALD (natural)
MALCOLM MACPHERSON/FLORA BLACK
M
3/3/1822
13/3/1822
Fort William, The Immaculate Conception
MACPHERSON MALCOM (lawful)
MALCOM MACPHERSON/FLORA POLACH (see attached – more convincing as Black?)
M
0/9/1824
10/10/1824
Glasgow, St Andrew's
The conflicting information for Alexander is helpful – the 1851 and 1881 census are for the same man and establish links with Glasgow, Fort William and Oban – and indeed Strath, Skye. It’s moving me towards thinking it more likely than not that, despite the many inconsistencies, we’ve got the right family. Is that tenable?
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Confusing about the natural/lawful isn't it.
Good find on the son Malcolm in 1824. Certainly looks like Black for Flora's maiden name on the image.
Sarah/Sally/Marion are common variants. See www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=sarah I think this is the best site to check always for first name variants...some obvious, some less so.
Have you viewed the image for Sally McIntyre in 1815?
Monica
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I've managed to find the discharge papers for the two Malcolm McPhersons discharged from the army in 1814.
The older Malcolm, aged about 54 from Long Island, was discharged after more than 20 years' service because, unsurprisingly, his constitution had worn out.
The younger Malcolm, aged about 37 from Myhath [Strath?], was discharged after nearly seven years because of the amputation of both legs after a fever on the Retreat from Burgos in the Peninsular War.
Both sets of details match the index entries.
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Confusing about the natural/lawful isn't it.
Good find on the son Malcolm in 1824. Certainly looks like Black for Flora's maiden name on the image.
Sarah/Sally/Marion are common variants. See www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=sarah I think this is the best site to check always for first name variants...some obvious, some less so.
Have you viewed the image for Sally McIntyre in 1815?
Monica
Very confusing. Lawful in Glasgow but natural in Fort William. I've attached the 1815 Sally McPherson.
Thank you for the alternative name link. I knew Sarah/Sally were variants but didn't realise Marion was too.
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Big drum roll - I have found Alexander McIntyre's death certificate. He died in Oban in 1889, as the widower of Sarah McPherson and notified by son Colin. His parents are named as Colin and Janet MS McDonald.
His age is given as 65, which is what threw us off in the first place as the 1881 census has him at 74 - in 8 years he's become 9 years younger, which is some going!
I've found a marriage for his parents in 1800 in Kilininian and Kilmore and various children born to them, mainly in Morvern. No Alexander, predictably - unless there's a missing record, I suspect he's Colin.
Kilininian and Kilmore
1804 - Mairon
Morvern
1805 - John
1808 - Mary
1812 - Isobel
1814 - Colin
1817 - Isobel
1819 - Colin
Kilmallie
1826 - James
So mission #1 accomplished but still lots to keep me busy!
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Bravo annby.
I have been following the thread progress, but have not had more time to look for Margaret Mary.
It is quite possible Alexander’s birth record is missing.
This is parents in 1841 census.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a141279f4040b9d6ef8e6e8/colin-mcintyre-1841-argyllshire-morvern-1751-?locale=en
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The difference in age between Colin and Janet, makes me wonder if there was a previous marriage for Colin. There is a possible on SP.
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The difference in age between Colin and Janet, make me wonder if there was a previous marriage for Colin. There is a possible on SP.
The 1793 Levingston marriage?
Both my 3x g grandfathers on this line, Colin and Malcolm McPherson, were certainly older parents.
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What does it say on Colin and Janets marriage record? Anything about it being a second marriage, or where he was from?
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What does it say on Colin and Janets marriage record? Anything about it being a second marriage, or where he was from?
Neale1961 I've not downloaded the records yet. I will do later today then post an update.
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That's great news :)
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Morvern
1805 - John
1808 - Mary
1812 - Isobel
1814 - Colin
1817 - Isobel
1819 - Colin
Kilmallie
1826 - James
I believe this is the son Colin born 1819 in the 1851 census.
He married Mary Cameron in Glasgow in 1837
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14f812f4040b9d6e00d946/colin-mcintyre-1851-lanarkshire-barony-1818-?locale=en
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Bravo and great news from me too ;D
I am going to suggest from the list of children above, there is a perfect gap for Alexander to have been born c. 1810. Also fits well with the age we have for him in a number of the censuses...ignoring his death age ;)
Monica
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You have a family tree on Ancestry don't you?
There is this one too for the line of Colin McIntyre and Janet MacDonald www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/115004637/person/212083190131/facts
They don't show Alexander. I would guess they don't know about him as he didn't show up in the OPRs for Colin and Janet's children. I note from these births given for siblings that they took place in Auliston. This is where we have Alexander in 1841 and 1851 isn't it?
Monica
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What does it say on Colin and Janets marriage record? Anything about it being a second marriage, or where he was from?
Neale1961 I've not downloaded the records yet. I will do later today then post an update.
Colin McIntyre is recorded as coming from Morvern in Mairon’s out of Morvern baptism record and as tenant at Aulisten in the Morvern baptism records for the other children. This fits with my Alexander, his son, being at Aulisten in 1841 and 1851.
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Progress is continuing!
I now have the 1857 death certificate for Janet MacDonald, my 3x g grandmother, and so information on her parents and one of her daughters, Isobel.
Can I ask your opinion on James McIntyre, the 1826 Kilmallie baptism? I've attached the record and I don't think he's a sibling, despite the parents' names. The record notes 'in fornication' - all the others are 'lawful', as you would expect with an 1800 marriage. It's also in a different place and, though I'm not certain of the handwriting, this Colin may come from Strone?, Fort William, not Morvern. There are two Janet Macdonalds and one Colin McIntyre of the right ages in Kilmallie so I'm leaning towards coincidence rather than relationship.
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I would say it is another couple altogether. Your line of Colin and Janet married in 1800 and have a good trail of children some time before this James was born.
Monica
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The area of settlements in Auliston seem to have gone to ruin in later years (fitting with the clearances?). See from 1868-78 Ordnance Survey Name Books:
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/argyll-os-name-books-1868-1878/argyll-volume-71/4
See also www.boydharris.co.uk/w_bh15/150623.htm for images. Also, https://theperimeter.uk/2019/05/07/day-253-auliston-to-camas-fearna-echoes-of-eviction/
Monica
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Can I ask your opinion on James McIntyre, the 1826 Kilmallie baptism? I've attached the record and I don't think he's a sibling, despite the parents' names. The record notes 'in fornication'
I think the last, plus the longish gap between Colin in 1819 and this James in 1826, plus the different parish, is enough to be confident that this is not the same couple.
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I don’t know how useful/useless this info. will be?
I found a Donald MacPherson on the Rental Rolls of South Uist 1811 in Kilpheder, the south end of South Uist which was & still is a catholic area.
This could be a son of the above Donald...
1841 – Donald is aged 35 (c1805/6) with wife Marion 30, Flora 13 & Malcolm 12
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14cafaf4040b9d6ece87fd/donald-mcpherson-1841-inverness-shire-south-uist-1806-?locale=en
Obviously Malcolm 12 is not your ancestor but it struck me family names were similar.
Donald moved to the area of Lochboisdale in the 1840s which is the main harbour area, still in the south end but north east of Kilpheder by only a few miles.
Edit - Donald appears as Ranald in 1851 at 'Leadglass' - my guess is it should be Lasgair (Lasker)?
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14d07bf4040b9d6ed52924/flora-mcpherson-1851-inverness-shire-south-uist-1830-?locale=en
This is a list of the M(a)cPhersons on South Uist in 1841 & 1851 which includes areas on Benbecula although many are listed as having been born South Uist...
1841 - https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_queries/5fc42e0b791e3bcf9e4c7b8b?locale=en
1851 - https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_queries/5fc421e4791e3bcf9e4c7053?locale=en
I was surprised at the amount of MacPherson families who were listed as emigrants.
Annie