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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northamptonshire => Topic started by: haney on Saturday 21 November 20 20:38 GMT (UK)
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HI Everyone. I'm trying to find the above couple on the 1851 England Census and possibly the 1861 as they came to Victoria Australia around this time.
JAMES SMITH married MARY ANN HALL 1843 Daventry (St. Mary the Virgin church) Northampton, the family were living in Staverton. It looks probable that James father is a Daniel SMITH and Mary Ann's father is a SAMUEL HALL.
James was born c 1822 in Staverton. Mary Ann HALL/SMITH was born in Branston, Warwickshire.
I have found some baptisms of the children whilst they were in England. MARIA 1844, HENRY 1846 + HENRY 1848 and Eleanor b 1850. There were other 'deceased' children listed on the birth certificate of the last daughter Emma who was born in Victoria Australia in 1867.
Would love to find the family on the census's if possible. Kind regards Dianna from Australia
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Could this be James baptism given the names of his two children perhaps named after his parents
James Smith
Baptism 13 Jan 1822 Staverton, Northamptonshire, England
Father: Henry Smith , labourer Mother: Eleanor
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Hi Thanks for that. It could possibly be his parents. I was just going by what was transcribed on the Bishops transcripts for his marriage with the fathers DANIEL and SAMUEL. These names do not carry through with the children though!
It did say that the JAMES SMITH was a butcher on the marriage record, didn't seem correct to me!! He was a Miner here in Australia that could have been a trade he adopted perhaps. Would like to follow up on Henry and Eleanor hopefully. Many thanks Dianna
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On the marriage certificate, 1843, what names do you see for witnesses?
Do bride, groom, witnesses...sign their names?
Birth certificate, Emma SMITH, 1867....can you please list all the information...for parents and children.
What is the source of this information -
"...James was born c 1822 in Staverton. Mary Ann HALL/SMITH was born in Branston, Warwickshire."
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Hi from EMMA'S (1867) birth certificate I have:- Father JAMES SMITH, miner for occupation, 45 years born Staverton, Northampton England. Married 1843 Daventry, Northampton. Previous issue Deceased:_ HENRY, JAMES, FRANCES, JAMES, MARY JANE. Living MARIA 22, HENRY 19, ELLEN 17 GEORGE 7 MARY ANN 4 and JANE 2.
Mother Mary Ann, Formerly HALL 43 born Branston Warwickshire, age 43. Their daughter Eleanor/Ellen married in 1867 the same year as her sister Emma was born! I will have to "refind" the marriage transcript. So the above birth certificate for EMMA was the source of information. Many thanks Dianna
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1851
Staverton
Mary Smith 27 b Braunston W of ag lab
Maria Smith 7 all b Staverton
Henry Smith 3
Eleanor Smith 1
piece 1741 folio 361 page 14
baptism of Frances 1852 Staverton
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Census 1851 Staverton Northamptonshire
SMITH Mary head marr. 27y b. Branston
SMITH Maria dau 7y b. Staverton Northamptonshire
SMITH Henry son 3y b. Staverton Northamptonshire
SMITH Eleanor dau 1y b. Staverton Northamptonshire
On line above -
SMITH Sarah head w? 58y b. Fleckney, Warwickshire
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Baptism of Eleanor
Eleanor Smith
Baptism 19 May 1850 Staverton, Northamptonshire
Father: James Smith , labourer Mother: Mary Ann
Is this Mary with children on 1851 census
Piece: 1741 Folio: 361 Page Number: 14
Mary Smith mar 27 Norths, Braunston
Maria Smith 7 Norths, Staverton
Henry Smith 3 Norths, Staverton
Eleanor Smith 1 Norths, Staverton
Maria Smith Baptism 24 Nov 1844 Baptism Staverton,
Henry Smith Baptism 1 Aug 1846 Staverton
Henry Smith Baptism 14 May 1848 Staverton
Edit to add
Frances Smith Baptism 6 Oct 1852 Staverton
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Hi I think I have made an error with the marriage details for the JAMES SMITH and MARY ANN HALL. The couple with the parents DANIEL and SAMUEL were actually married in Norfolk. James was a Butcher, residence All Saints (where??) The date could be 1842 as well! I should have double checked I guess. So not sure where the couple I'm researching were married.
For Marriage
FHL Film Number: 1517748
Reference ID: p 58 item 14
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No James with them
1841 census Staverton
Piece: 798
Folio: 6
Page Number: 7
Henry Smith 50 Ag lab.
Elenor Smith 45
Mary Smith 20
Thomas Smith 15
George Smith 11
Ellen Smith 8
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Hi Yes it does look like it is the family on the 1851 Census. Wonder why Mary is listed as the head of the household. James could have been somewhere else. Wonder did he get into trouble with the law maybe!! As I don't know for sure what year they came here as yet!
This James Smith is like a ghost. LOL
Many thanks Dianna
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Birth reg from GRO indexes give mmn
SMITH, MARIA mmn HALL
1844 S Quarter in DAVENTRY UNION Volume 15 Page 235
SMITH, HENRY mmn HALL
1848 M Quarter in DAVENTRY Volume 15 Page 236
SMITH, ELEANOR Mmn HALL
1850 M Quarter in DAVENTRY Volume 15 Page 248
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If this is your George, 7 years at 1867, then no Census 1861 to find for them.
This certificate would list previous issue -
BDM VIC birth
20257/1860 SMITH George William parents Mary Ann HALL / James
@ ASHB
Do you have death certificate for Mary Ann SMITH nee HALL?
Do you have death certificate for James SMITH?
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Hi Yes I would say that is George so born 1860 here! That would explain why they are not on the 1861 Census. I have not found JAMES SMITH on the Victoria OR NSW indexes as yet. Victoria is not as easy to search in as NSW. Now that there is a possible fathers name of HENRY I can relook. The family were in NSW as well EMMA SMITH married Thomas WATSON and JANE married a JOHN FURNER! in NSW. The sister Eleanor married in Victoria to JOHN Edwards in 1867 ELEANOR/ELLEN died in 1913 parents MARY ANN HALL and JAMES SMITH. So the search continues. Thanks very much Dianna
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At 1867, birth of Emma SMITH -
Deceased Henry, Frances, James, Mary Jane.....
Living Maria 22, Henry 19, Ellen 17, George 7, Mary Ann 4, Jane 2.
There is a significant gap between Ellen.......and George b. Victoria 1860.
Using BDM VIC ...deaths SMITH parents James / Mary Ann 1860 - 1867...I do not see deaths.
Did this family arrive on Victoria.....or another state?
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I have just found one possibility for JAMES SMITH death in NSW 1883 with parents HENRY AND ELEANOR in Petersham NSW. They could have arrived anywhere really I guess and moved around from Victoria,NSW.
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NSW BDM marriage
3694/1886 SMITH Jane marr. FURNER John @ St Leonards
Emma SMITH married Thomas WATSON......where?
A marriage certificate, NSW and Vic would name SMITH parents...and, most likely, indicate if deceased.
Do you have a death certificate for Mary Ann SMITH nee HALL?
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I have just found one possibility for JAMES SMITH death in NSW 1883 with parents HENRY AND ELEANOR in Petersham NSW.
I don't know if this is him :-\
Funeral notices for James Smith of Victoria Street, St Peters, in the Sydney Evening News, 29 Dec 1883
Mrs James Smith
Henry Smith (son)
George Smith (son)
Mrs Bullivan (sister)
Mr and Mrs Newman
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108835035?
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Using Ancestry passengers Victoria -
"Confiance" departed Liverpool arrived 12 Apr 1853 Geelong and Victorian ports
SMITH James ag labourer 30y Northamptonshire
SMITH Mary A 27y
SMITH Maria
SMITH Henry
SMITH Alexander
SMITH James
All native place Northampton
By whom employed: own account
Where: Geelong
BDM VIC births
1610/1855 SMITH James parents Mary Ann HALL / James
@ ASHBY
13354/1859 SMITH Mary Jane parents Mary Anne HALL / Jas
@ GASSY GULL
BDM VIC deaths
3391/1855 SMITH James parents Mary Ann HALL / James
@ GEEL age 5 Months
3475/1855 SMITH William parents Mary Ann HALL / James
@ WARW age 3
8223/1859 SMITH Frances parents Mary Anne HALL / James
@ NOR age 7
8224/1859 SMITH Mary Jane parents Mary Anne HALL / James
@ MOU age 16 months
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Hi I think I have made an error with the marriage details for the JAMES SMITH and MARY ANN HALL. The couple with the parents DANIEL and SAMUEL were actually married in Norfolk. James was a Butcher, residence All Saints (where??) The date could be 1842 as well! I should have double checked I guess. So not sure where the couple I'm researching were married.
This is the marriage in Norwich:
Marriages Dec 1843
HALL, Mary Ann
SMITH, James
Norwich 13 637
This is the marriage you need:
Marriages Dec 1843
HALL, Mary Ann
SMITH, James
Daventry 15 526
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Debra :)
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Hi Debra Thanks very much for that. At least that's sorted out now. If I find the actual marriage certificate it should say at least the Fathers names for the bride and groom shouldn't it. That will help. Much appreciated. Kind regards Dianna
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Hi On further investigation for the death notice
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108835035?
It is very possible that this is My JAMES SMITH. The Mrs BULLIVAN is actually FRANCES BULLIMAN! She was married to Frederick BULLIMAN in Staverton 1841. Frances died in 1896 NSW (born 1820) in the Newington Asylum Granville.
Her death in the NSW BDM was spelt BULLEMAN father HENRY mother unknown. So what I may do now is order that particular JAMES' death certificate and see what it say's. Hopefully the kids will be mentioned by name!! Will follow up on MARY ANN HALL born in Braunston as well.
It's such a shame that there are the missing parents on the marriages of JANE (FURNER) and EMMA (WATSON). A HENRY SMITH was a witness to Emma's marriage though.
At least with everyone's help the family is coming together. I noticed there was NO Eleanor/Ellen on the immigration record and there was an Alexander mentioned. Anyway it is all looking good. Many thanks Dianna
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From the two marriage certificates that you have, can you please.....list........all the information on each. All the information is important so please list every name, age, address, occupation......church, witnesses....everything please.
NSW BDM marriage
3694/1886 SMITH Jane marr. FURNER John @ St Leonards
Is this your Emma SMITH?
VIC BDM marriage
945/1889 SMITH Emma Mary marr. WATSON, Jas
1889
The birth certificate, 1867, Emma SMITH....what name do you see for the informant?
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EMMA SMITH marriage
02306
25 MAY 1889
THE RESIDENCE OF MR. HARDIE, LILYDAYLE STREET, MARRICKVILLE
PRIMITIVE METHODIST
GROOM:- ALEXANDER WATSON, BACHELOR, OCCUPATION BRICK CARTER, RESIDENCE MAY STREET ST. PETERS. (NSW) PARENTS NOT LISTED OCCUPATION OF FATHER NOT LISTED.
BRIDE:- EMMA SMITH SPINSTER, BIRTHPLACE NOT LISTED, OCCUPATION DOMESTIC SERVANT AGE NOT LISTED. USUAL RESIDENCE SILVER STREET, MARRICKVILLE.
PARENTS NOT LISTED OCCUPATION OF FATHER NOT LISTED.
WITNESSES JAMES HARDIE, HENRY SMITH. MINISTER ELIZAS CROZIER. I TRIED TO FIND THE RECORDS FROM THE ARCHIVES AND THEY SAID THEY DID NOT HAVE THEM. OFTEN I HAVE FOUND THAT THE MINISTER HAD MORE INFORMATION ON HIS ORIGINAL RECORDS THAN WHAT WAS SENT TO REGISTRY OFFICE.
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For the birth of EMMA SMITH her mother MARY ANN is the informant.
Also I only did a "check and verify" for the marriage of JANE SMITH (FURNER). I asked my transcription agent to check for parents only!! And unfortunately they were not mentioned.
What I have is JOHN FURNER/JANE SMITH married 15 May 1886 St. Stephen's Church North Willoughby (NSW) Church of England. Minister D. MURPHY
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Ancestry passengers NSW assisted
"Beejapore" arr. 11 Feb 1853
BULLIMAN Frederick 55y farm labourer C of E read and write
parents Thomas and Sarah, father deceased
BULLIMAN Frances 38y C of E read
parents Henry and Eleanor living at Staverton
BULLIMAN William 8y
BULLIMAN Rebecca 5y
Native place for all Staverton Northamptonshire. No relations in the colony
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3694/1886
FURNER
JOHN
SMITH
JANE
ST LEONARDS
They had a child George
FURNER GEORGE E11231/1896 JOHNJANEWATERLOO
George married
6514/1924
FURNER
GEORGE E
EVANS
ETHEL K
ST PETE RS
In Memorium Notice for Emma
SMH 4 July 1928
WATSON. - In loving memory of our dear Aunty EMMA, who passed away July 4, 1927. Inserted by her loving niece and nephew ETHEL and GEORGE FUNER.
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Using Ancestry passengers Victoria -
"Confiance" departed Liverpool arrived 12 Apr 1853 Geelong and Victorian ports
SMITH James ag labourer 30y Northamptonshire
SMITH Mary A 27y
SMITH Maria
SMITH Henry
SMITH Alexander
SMITH James
When I look at the passenger list on Confiance on Ancestry, I do not see child James.
The chn I see are-
Maria aged 7
Henry aged 5
Alexander aged 3
Frances and infant.
Sue
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Hi Sue yes I'm just looking at that immigration record myself. NO JAMES (child) or Ellen/Eleanor. I wonder did Eleanor come over with another family member OR she was accidently left off. Not sure. Many thanks Dianna
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Alexander's age (3) is clearly placed in the Male column, so no confusion of the names Eleanor and Alexander,?? though Eleanor would be 3 years if born in 1850 as you have said.
I do just wonder about some kind of typographical error.
Sue
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Haney,
On the Digger indexes which I still use, there are 2 births for a child named James.
1.
SMITH, James
Parents James and Mary Ann Hall at Ashby. 1855 # 1610
2,
SMITH, James
Parents James and Mary Ann Hall at Ashby.1856 #8874
To 1867, (the birth of Emma the last child whose cert you have), there is not a death for James with correct details, except for the infant aged 5 months who died in 1855 Reg 3391at Geelong.
Does this information tally with your records?
Sue
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Hi Sue well it's a bit confusing really as I don't have the death or birth certificates of either James brother to Emma! I only have in order that the mother has given of the deceased children in 1867. HENRY, JAMES, FRANCES, JAMES, MARY JANE. So whether there were two James born close to each other?? I'm not sure. Perhaps the death certificates of JAMES SMITH (snr) and MARY ANN SMITH Hall may shed some light. If I could afford it I would have EVERY certificate I could get my hands on LOL.
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Hi Sue, like yourself I can only find two births of A JAMES to James and Mary Ann HALL. Then there is only one death recorded!! Was it missed or could it have been a stillbirth and not recorded as a death just a birth!! Just guessing here really! I have just ordered James Smith seniors death certificate.
It may not shed any light on the NAMES but perhaps will list quantity of deceased males and females. Hopefully his wife is the informant and will know the pertinent facts. Fingers crossed. Many thanks Dianna
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It will be interesting to see the listed children ,but we have to cross fingers that the informant was aware of all issue of the union.
Hoping !!
Sue
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No James with them
1841 census Staverton
Piece: 798
Folio: 6
Page Number: 7
Henry Smith 50 Ag lab.
Elenor Smith 45
Mary Smith 20
Thomas Smith 15
George Smith 11
Ellen Smith 8
For info.
If the above are your James' parents there are more baptisms at Staverton
parents Henry SMITH, ag labourer & Eleanor, abode Staverton
Mary Ann Smith 28 Sep 1817
Frances Smith 16 Jan 1820
JAMES Smith 13 Jan 1822 - previously posted
Thomas Smith 30 Nov 1823
Maria Smith 18 May 1826
Eleanor Smith 16 Nov 1828
George Smith 9 Jul 1830
Eleanor Smith 19 May 1832
Eleanor Smith 19 May 1833
1851 census Piece: 1741 Folio: 363 Page Number: 19
Henry SMITH 64 Priors Marston Warwickshire occ Ag Labourer
Eleanor 58 Warmington Warwickshire
George 20 Staverton
1861 Piece: 943 Folio: 85 Page Number: 8
Henry Smith 72 Prior Marston occ Ag Lab.
Eleanor 67 Warmington
1871 Piece: 1491 Folio: 82 Page Number: 8
Henry Smith 85 Prior Marston, In receipt of Par. relief
Eleanor Smith 79 Warmington ditto
George Smith 39 Staverton son wid. Ag. Lab & Jour'n Butcher
Mary Bachelor 11 Staverton Gd dau
Ann Tubb 78 lodger
Probable marriage for Henry & Eleanor
Henry SMITH
Married 29 Aug 1816 Priors Hardwick, Warwickshire
Spouse: Elinor HANDCOCK
both of this Parish, married in Church after Banns, he made his mark, she signed her name
in the presence of George Handcock & John Jones
This appears to be their baptisms
Henry SMITH
Baptism 18 Dec 1791 Priors Marston, Warwickshire
Father: Henry Mother: Mary
Eleanor HANDCOCK
Baptism 21 Sept 1794 Warmington, Warwickshire
Father: Thomas Mother: Frances
Perhaps Henry's parents marriage :-\
Henry Smith
Marriage 4 Sep 1791 Priors Marston, Warwickshire
Spouse: Mary Townly
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Hi Ladyhawk, thank you for all the extra information on the family. When the death certificate comes through for James Smith I will let everyone know. Thanks everyone so much for all the help it is very much appreciated. Kind regards Dianna
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Hi James Smiths death certificate. Regards Dianna
03129
Date of Death 28 Dec 1883
Place of Death Victoria Street, St Peter's
Name James Smith
Occupation Laborer
Sex Male
Age 63
Cause of Death Apoplexy
Duration 3 DAYS
Medical Attendant/Last Seen J. Kingsbury, 28 DEC 1883
Father Henry Smith
Father's Occupation Laborer
Mother - Maiden Name Eleanor (Surname Unknown)
Informant George Smith, Son Of the deceased, Victoria
Street, St Peter's; Registered 31 Dec 1883,
Petersham
When Buried 30 Dec 1883
Where ST Peter's, Cook's River Cemetery
Undertaker G.H. Gommeson
Minister Not Listed
Religion -
Witnesses G.H. Gommeson, George Smith
Where born England
Length of time in Colony 20 Years in N.S. Wales
Place Married England
Age at Marriage Unknown
Spouse Mary Ann Hall
Children of Marriage Maria, Henry, Ellen, George, Mary Ann, Jane, Emma,
Living,
2 Males 1 Female Deceased
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Burial of James at St Peters is on ancestry
SMH 4 July 1928
WATSON. - In loving memory of our dear Aunty EMMA, who passed away July 4, 1927. Inserted by her loving niece and nephew ETHEL and GEORGE FUNER.
Funeral notices in the Sydney Morning Herald, 5 July 1927
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16370391?searchTerm=watson
May lead to a possible death of her mum Mary Ann in 1905
Funeral announcement in The Sydney Morning Herald, 8 Aug 1905
SMITH.— The Friends of Mr. and Mrs. ALEXANDER
WATSON are kindly invited to attend the Fune-
ral of their late beloved MOTHER, Mary Ann Smith;
to move from their residence, 21 St Peters Street, St.
Peters, THIS (Tuesday) AFTERNOON at 1.40 pm,
for Rookwood Cemetery
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14730186?searchTerm=smith
Death Index
Mary A Smith
Father Henry
Reg no 10632/1905
St Peters
I think death on 6 August
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Hi thanks very much for the death/funeral notice for Mary Ann Smith. Looks like it's her. Just wondering about the father's name Henry? Will need to back track to Warwickshire now to check on that for Mary Ann's Hall's birth. Strange how her husband James is buried in St. Peters Cemetery and Mary Ann is in Rookwood. All good. Thanks Dianna
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Hi
I haven't found Mary at Rookwood yet!
It would be interesting to see her details when she married, Mary Ann seems to be a bit of a mystery!
John
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Hi John thanks for looking for Mary at Rookwood! The only way I will be able to find anything on her marriage is by ordering the marriage certificate, unless there is a way to find the original transcript online from the church where they were married. Surely this marriage would have their respective fathers mentioned!! All good! Dianna
This was kindly supplied by Debra (thanks!)
Marriages Dec 1843
HALL, Mary Ann
SMITH, James
Daventry 15 526
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You can search Rookwood online
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/deceased-search-engine
I think Emma is there.
Maybe Mary Ann is buried with James, burials at St Peter's go up to 1896 on ancestry.
I fear the marriage of James and Mary Ann may not have been in a parish church, in which case you would probably have to purchase the certificate :-\
John