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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Sassenach73 on Sunday 22 November 20 11:09 GMT (UK)
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Hi to all,
I have recently come across my ancestor's military records on a simple google search....I was struggling to find where he was in the 1911 census and happened upon them! Anyway, I found record after record of him being in the 1st Newfoundland Regiment. His address on all correspondence was in London....a long way from his home in Henllan, Wales....am I right in thinking that, despite it being a Canadian branch, that people in the UK could join up from the UK if they were deployed over here, (if they ever were), OR does it hint that he may have moved to Canada at some point prior to joining up? Any help would be appreciated!
Kind regards
Michelle
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The Canadian Great War project http://canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetail.asp?ID=135705 says he enlisted in St Johns Newfoundland (which at the time of the Great War was not yet part of Canada) which would suggest he had already moved there.
MaxD
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The Canadian Great War project http://canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierDetail.asp?ID=135705 says he enlisted in St Johns Newfoundland (which at the time of the Great War was not yet part of Canada) which would suggest he had already moved there.
MaxD
Hi Max,
Thank you so much! So I've been hunting in the wrong places for the missing 1911 census lol.
When it comes to the military, despite so many of my family being in it, even now!, I'm hopeless lol
Thanks again!
Michelle
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https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/Pages/newfoundland-labrador-microfilm-reels.aspx
Looks as if finding him earlier in Newfoundland may not be easy. Someone may find him in a travel record - he (or at least his name) appears on Ancestry en route to Quebec but details not visible to me with my subscription.
MaxD
PS would you give a link to where you first found records for him?
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Probably his medal record here:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2158186
MaxD
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https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/Pages/newfoundland-labrador-microfilm-reels.aspx
Looks as if finding him earlier in Newfoundland may not be easy. Someone may find him in a travel record - he (or at least his name) appears on Ancestry en route to Quebec but details not visible to me with my subscription.
MaxD
PS would you give a link to where you first found records for him?
Yes, its proving difficult - I am looking through immigration and emigration now! He was in Henllan in 1901 as a drapers apprentice and then nothing lol - I stumbled across the following site - I finally found out what the E stood for in his middle name, despite one of the records in the collection saying Edward lol - his parents's names and address check out too..... https://www.therooms.ca/sites/default/files/evans_robert_ellis_0-54_or_2845.pdf
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Another thing that is perplexing me, (kind of), or should that be "irritating" me is that the civil records have his birth as being in 1881; his school registration shows his birth as being 10th Feb 1881 - yet on these army papers its 1884 and I've seen a photo of a grave amongst other things that also have the 10 Feb 1884 on them (Robert Ellis Evans) ?!?!? The only way I know for sure that this is the correct Robert Ellis, albeit, his DOB wrong is by his parents/next of kin name and address which is unique to that family. (His father having built Bryn Meirion). Would he have lied about his age because it may have been considered too old to join up? (I find this unlikely as he would have been 35 instead of 32) - or could it be he truly didn't know?!?
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Don't know. There would be no reason for fibbing about his age, I'd suggest he didn't know. Do you have his birth cert? FreeBMD has a registration for Festiniog reg dist in Jun 1885.
Note that in the letter of Sep 1916 when the minister was writing to David Lloyd George about contact problems with his mother, he says "went some years ago to St John Newfoundland to fill a post as a draper" so clearly he had been there some time.
Fine set of records which give his service in the Great War clearly - you knew he was married I imagine? There are two war diaries for 1st Newfoundland
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=1+newfoundland+regiment+WO+95 which you can download free at present. His wounding in March 1917 was on 2 March when the battalion suffered 6 wounded at Sailly Saillisel in in an enemy bombardment of Palz trench (look closely to the east of the village). His re-joining the regiment in France after commissioning is recorded on 6 Jan 1918.
MaxD
Map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=50.03664&lon=2.92039&layers=101465176&b=1
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Don't know. There would be no reason for fibbing about his age, I'd suggest he didn't know. Do you have his birth cert? FreeBMD has a registration for Festiniog reg dist in Jun 1885.
Note that in the letter of Sep 1916 when the minister was writing to David Lloyd George about contact problems with his mother, he says "went some years ago to St John Newfoundland to fill a post as a draper" so clearly he had been there some time.
Fine set of records which give his service in the Great War clearly - you knew he was married I imagine? There are two war diaries for 1st Newfoundland
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=1+newfoundland+regiment+WO+95 which you can download free at present. His wounding in March 1917 was on 2 March when the battalion suffered 6 wounded at Sailly Saillisel in in an enemy bombardment of Palz trench (look closely to the east of the village). His re-joining the regiment in France after commissioning is recorded on 6 Jan 1918.
MaxD
Map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=50.03664&lon=2.92039&layers=101465176&b=1
Thank you Max,
Yes, I did see another birth in 1885 however, although he was part of the extended family, wasn't the son of John Evans and Ellen Brown - Robert disappeared from my records after the 1901 census, and no, I hadn't managed to find a marriage - I did assume, from his military records, that he was single as he stated and that his next of kin was his parents, (father). I will take a closer look at the letters, as I have to say it was a quick skim I did earlier and I have to admit some of the writing was rather difficult to read lol.
Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction - thats two down, just another two to locate lol!
Kindest regards,
Michelle
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Canadian Archives has 2 records under Canada Expeditionary Force for a Robert Ellis Evans -
one born 24 May 1892, (born ** North Wales, next of kin Daniel Evans, Garnedd **) and the other 14 May 1877 ( born Port Madoc, North Wales)
**Looks to begin "Elyn ..."?
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Canadian Archives has 2 records under Canada Expeditionary Force for a Robert Ellis Evans -
one born 24 May 1892, (born ** North Wales, next of kin Daniel Evans, Garnedd **) and the other 14 May 1877 ( born Port Madoc, North Wales)
**Looks to begin "Elyn ..."?
Thanks for taking time to have a look for me :)
The Robert Ellis Evans in my tree was born 10 February 1881, to John Evans and Ellen Brown in Dolgellau. I have to say, that Ellis appears to have been the middle name for three of the brothers! I have yet to find the connection with that either! Obviously he must have struck out some time after 1901 to Canada/America and then on to Newfoundland?!?
Ancestry appear to be rather haphazard some times with their search results - I just kept getting two records for the bloke, until I tweaked a few of the settings lol.
Keeps me out of trouble I guess!
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Don't know. There would be no reason for fibbing about his age, I'd suggest he didn't know. Do you have his birth cert? FreeBMD has a registration for Festiniog reg dist in Jun 1885.
Note that in the letter of Sep 1916 when the minister was writing to David Lloyd George about contact problems with his mother, he says "went some years ago to St John Newfoundland to fill a post as a draper" so clearly he had been there some time.
Fine set of records which give his service in the Great War clearly - you knew he was married I imagine? There are two war diaries for 1st Newfoundland
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=1+newfoundland+regiment+WO+95 which you can download free at present. His wounding in March 1917 was on 2 March when the battalion suffered 6 wounded at Sailly Saillisel in in an enemy bombardment of Palz trench (look closely to the east of the village). His re-joining the regiment in France after commissioning is recorded on 6 Jan 1918.
MaxD
Map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=50.03664&lon=2.92039&layers=101465176&b=1
Having looked at more of the letters, was his wife Maisie?
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There's a 3rd record on Canadian Archives - an index only to a microfilm/fiche record?
Evans Robert Ellis, Royal Newfoundland Regiment and Forestry Corps
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Because Newfoundland did not become a Canadian province 'til 1949, it was not included in the Censuses 1851-1911.
Having a look at the "Newfoundland Grand Banks" site but not optimistic.
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Having looked at more of the letters, was his wife Maisie?
The letter from 30 Sandgate Ayr of 5 Nov 1918 does appear to be signed Maisie Evans and refers to having been married to him on November (of 1917) in Ayr. He returned to Ayr from his officer training on 2 October 1917. The letter from Maisie does not seem to have been followed up anywhere.
You'll perhaps have noted that the letter from the minister in 1916 says he is the brother of Madame Laura Evan Williams and that he has three brothers.
MaxD
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Because Newfoundland did not become a Canadian province 'til 1949, it was not included in the Censuses 1851-1911.
Having a look at the "Newfoundland Grand Banks" site but not optimistic.
Thank you so much! I shall meander my way to take a look! Fingers crossed!
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Having looked at more of the letters, was his wife Maisie?
The letter from 30 Sandgate Ayr of 5 Nov 1918 does appear to be signed Maisie Evans and refers to having been married to him on November (of 1917) in Ayr. He returned to Ayr from his officer training on 2 October 1917. The letter from Maisie does not seem to have been followed up anywhere.
You'll perhaps have noted that the letter from the minister in 1916 says he is the brother of Madame Laura Evan Williams and that he has three brothers.
MaxD
Yes, he had three sisters and five brothers in total - the more famous siblings being Laura, (renown Welsh operatic singer), hence why her name may well have been dropped into the letter; Elaine Evans, aka, Snookie - who was an actress, singer and director and Bessie, the youngest sibling. William, (One of those who had also popped off the radar), was actually born William Brown and I found him again in Cornwall with a wife and child; Stanley Ellis and Hugh George, both KIA in the Great War - and then that leaves, Richard, who I have lots of details on and John Evans - John and Bessie are the two that are now unaccounted for - cannot find anything on John after 1901 and yet to have a good look for Anne Elizabeth, (Lizzie).
I have to say, you have a very keen eye on deciphering the handwriting - excellent information you've given me to start looking for a marriage!
Thank you so much for all your help!
Take care
Michelle
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Digging through the newspapers there's quite a few mentions of various members of the family - but not Robert, John or Ann Elizabeth
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Hi,
From Family Search, I think this is Robert in 1921 St. Johns Nfld. living with the Bailey family.
Bailey, Caroline, head, widow, age 50,
Bailey, Marguerite, age 23
Bailey, Maud, age 25
Bailey, Winifred, age 20
Bailey, Samuel, age 17
Cragg, John G. (Rev.), father, widow, age 85
Evans, Robert, boarder, widower, age 37, b. Feb. 1884, Wales, yr. of immigration 1905, shop asst., mercantile
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99FW-GD21?i=682&cc=2226517&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQV1W-5FG8
This one is a head scratcher, but the address of 20 Woodland Gardens matches with his service
file.
Canadian Passenger Form 30A, arriving Montreal 29 Aug. 1923 on the ship Manoa
Robert E. Evans, age 39, widow, b. North Wales, citizenship St. Johns NF, on a visit, had no intention
of remaining in Canada, ??? and had never lived in Canada. Going to Queens Hotel, Montreal, and
nearest relative Mrs. R. T. Williams, sister, 20 Woodland Gardens, London.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3WP-W9RQ-3?i=127&cat=1107802
There is a marriage in Iberville, Quebec in 1923, September I think, the handwriting is terrible.
Robert Ellis Evans, son of John Evans and Ellinor Brown, his wife...formerly of Bryn Me.....North Wales, widower of the late Agnes Hynes who died in St. Johns Newfoundland and Hilda Marguerite Collingwood Bailey of St. Johns Nfld, spinster daughter of William Butler Bailey and Caroline Goodacre C....(that would be Cragg). Both signed, witnesses were J.E. Stewart and Lorne McCaw.
There is a marriage in St. Johns, Nfld 10 June 1913
Robert Evans, age 31
Agnes Hynes, age 28
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-62GS-Z2M?i=25&cc=1790939
DB
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The Newfoundland Great Banks site has thrown up a couple of hits - basic information of info already given by dbree in previous post. But have spotted in newspapers -
The Evening Telegram, St Johns, Newfoundland, Mar 10 1917
Casualty List - rec'd Mar 10th 1917
The following admitted Wandsworth
2845 Corporal Robert E Evans, North Wales. Gunshot wound head
The St John's Daily Star published same day states "Gunshot wound hand"
The Evening Telegram, St Johns, Newfoundland, Sep 13th 1917
1st Newfoundland Regimental Headquarters
Regimental Orders - Promotion
The following cadets have been promoted to Second Lieutenants:
No 2845 Robert E Evans
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Hi,
I think this is the death of Agnes, in St. Johns on 5 Dec. 1914
Evans, Agnes, age 30, place of death Atlantic Ave., cause of death septicaemia
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9398-2W7C-2?i=106&cc=1790939&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQKQF-WGRY
The 1913 directory of St. Johns has Robert Evans, 3 Atlantic Ave., advertising clerk Royal Stores
https://collections.mun.ca/digital/collection/cns_tools/id/125389/rec/2
Unfortunately, very little of the 1911 Newfoundland census survives. Directories are very patchy.
http://ngb.chebucto.org/C1911/01-dist-1911-idx.shtml
DB
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The wounding and the promotion accord with his service record.
Wonder what happened to Maisie?
MaxD
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Agnes J Evans obituary
https://collections.mun.ca/digital/collection/telegram19/id/3184/rec/1
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https://collections.mun.ca/digital/collection/telegram19/id/1190/rec/2
See advertisement foot of col 4 - was Robert still at this address I wonder?
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This one is a head scratcher, but the address of 20 Woodland Gardens matches with his service
file.
Canadian Passenger Form 30A, arriving Montreal 29 Aug. 1923 on the ship Manoa
Robert E. Evans, age 39, widow, b. North Wales, citizenship St. Johns NF, on a visit, had no intention
of remaining in Canada, ??? and had never lived in Canada. Going to Queens Hotel, Montreal, and
nearest relative Mrs. R. T. William, sister, 20 Woodland Gardens, London.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3WP-W9RQ-3?i=127&cat=1107802
That's Laura, the singer. She married Robert Thomas Williams
Added: Newfoundland was not part of Canada in 1923, hence his not ever living in Canada!
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Thank you Mabel. I knew it was Laura because the address confirmed it. I also knew Nfld. only
became part of Canada 31 Mar. 1949 as I am Canadian.
To clarify, my head scratching was.... why did he come to Montreal to marry within the month
in small town Iberville to a girl from Nfld.
Well done hanes teulu on finding the obit for Agnes. Sad isn't it, so young. :(
DB
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https://collections.mun.ca/digital/collection/telegram19/id/10430/rec/2
see "Hospital Report" - No 2845 listed
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Digging through the newspapers there's quite a few mentions of various members of the family - but not Robert, John or Ann Elizabeth
Yes, sadly, I'm struggling with them too! Aside from Robert's military files, John, especially, is extremely hard to find - I know that he didn't die in the great war otherwise I'm sure he'd be on the War Memorial alongside his two brothers, Stanley and Hugh George; I know that he was an apprentice carpenter at 16 and that is about it - cannot pinpoint a marriage yet or see him on any 1911 censuses - Bessie, I have only done a very quick search on but will be concentrating on her more today!
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Hi,
From Family Search, I think this is Robert in 1921 St. Johns Nfld. living with the Bailey family.
Bailey, Caroline, head, widow, age 50,
Bailey, Marguerite, age 23
Bailey, Maud, age 25
Bailey, Winifred, age 20
Bailey, Samuel, age 17
Cragg, John G. (Rev.), father, widow, age 85
Evans, Robert, boarder, widower, age 37, b. Feb. 1884, Wales, yr. of immigration 1905, shop asst., mercantile
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99FW-GD21?i=682&cc=2226517&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQV1W-5FG8
This one is a head scratcher, but the address of 20 Woodland Gardens matches with his service
file.
Canadian Passenger Form 30A, arriving Montreal 29 Aug. 1923 on the ship Manoa
Robert E. Evans, age 39, widow, b. North Wales, citizenship St. Johns NF, on a visit, had no intention
of remaining in Canada, ??? and had never lived in Canada. Going to Queens Hotel, Montreal, and
nearest relative Mrs. R. T. Williams, sister, 20 Woodland Gardens, London.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3WP-W9RQ-3?i=127&cat=1107802
There is a marriage in Iberville, Quebec in 1923, September I think, the handwriting is terrible.
Robert Ellis Evans, son of John Evans and Ellinor Brown, his wife...formerly of Bryn Me.....North Wales, widower of the late Agnes Hynes who died in St. Johns Newfoundland and Hilda Marguerite Collingwood Bailey of St. Johns Nfld, spinster daughter of William Butler Bailey and Caroline Goodacre C....(that would be Cragg). Both signed, witnesses were J.E. Stewart and Lorne McCaw.
There is a marriage in St. Johns, Nfld 10 June 1913
Robert Evans, age 31
Agnes Hynes, age 28
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-62GS-Z2M?i=25&cc=1790939
DB
Oh wow, sorry I seem to have missed quite a few replies! Yes, it does look to be him!
Thank you for finding this!
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WOW!
Massive thanks to everyone who has taken time out to have a look for him (and the others) - never has a family branch given me such headaches in trying to pin them down ;D
Definitely a lot to go at here! Amazing info!!
Thank you so very, very much!
Michelle
PS I wonder what DID happen to the mysterious Maisie????
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Maisie?? Have you been able to find a marriage in Ayr in Nov 1917?
MaxD
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Thank you Mabel. I knew it was Laura because the address confirmed it. I also knew Nfld. only
became part of Canada 31 Mar. 1949 as I am Canadian.
To clarify, my head scratching was.... why did he come to Montreal to marry within the month
in small town Iberville to a girl from Nfld.
Well done hanes teulu on finding the obit for Agnes. Sad isn't it, so young. :(
DB
I think the girl he married in 1923 was part of the family that he had been previously boarding with in the 1921 census x
Between Agnes and the second official marriage, he had apparently married a girl in Ayr Scotland in November 1917, (taken from a letter amongst his military papers); however there is no record on Scotlands People regarding such a marriage or indeed any marriage in the UK with the relevant details! Bizarre! Also, there was no mention of him being widowed, twice, before his last marriage! There was just mention of his first wife Agnes.
Itchy brain day today methinks lol ???
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Maisie?? Have you been able to find a marriage in Ayr in Nov 1917?
MaxD
Yes, Maisie Evans, who had signed a letter requesting information on him (she stated she had married him in Ayr, Scotland) - I checked on Scotlands People to no avail and also did repeated checks on other sites with the relevant details and nothing popped up - Maisie is apparently the pet name for Margaret, but no Margaret married Robert Evans in Scotland either lol. ???
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https://collections.mun.ca/digital/collection/telegram19/id/10430/rec/2
see "Hospital Report" - No 2845 listed
I see him! Thanks for all your input, its truly appreciated! :)
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Testing reply button for new member
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hi--anyone interested in a number of facts/info about robert ellis evans of the newfoundland regiment please contact me--he was my grandfather. i've been reading a few of the posts and certainly had no idea he was married (maybe TWICE) before! i did know that he came over from wales and then went back before actually settling in st. john's for awhile, where he married my grandmother marguerite bailey. incidently, her father was, i think, the police chief in st. john's or at least a police detective (technically of the "royal newfoundland constabulary"--at the time newfoundland was still a crown colony)...further, anyone into early flight will be interested to know that alcock and brown stayed at their house in st. john's prior to their ill-fated 1919 flight. also, one of his sisters in wales (nicknamed "snooky"--she'd been a chorus girl) married darrell fancourt, the d'oyly carte opera singer well-known for his MIKADO in the 20's and 30's. his real name was leveson--fancourt was a stage name. he was educated in heidelberg, so i was told, and spoke german like a native and i've been told was sent into germany during the war as a brit agent. he used to tour the states with the d'oyly carte company occasionally during the 30"s--i know fancourt visited r. e. evans in macon, georgia (see below) around 1937 and everyone had a great time...re WW1: as i understand it my grandfather went in around 1915 and as an enlisted man received a head wound of some kind in a trench raid in 1917 and while in hospital in england decided to take the officer's course. he eventually became a captain and was one the occupying forces in germany after the war. he married in newfoundland and then moved first to new york and then to macon, georgia, of all places, where he was head of advertising for dannenberg's department store (he'd done something similar in st. john's). one more little detail: his hair was prematurely white--supposedly something to do with the war....laura evans williams was his sister and a well-known music hall performer in edwardian days...re his brothers: actually two may have died in the war--not at all sure about this....this is stuff i heard from my father. the last time i saw HIS father (the "robert ellis evans" discussed here) was around 1955--i think he died in '56 or '57. re his correct birthdate which is discussed in several posts, i always thought 1884-85--but it could well have been 1881--probably mistakes are common in such matters...oh yeah--everybody called him "bobby" and he was ambidextrous....hopefully this may be interesting to someone....
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Hello There Buck....
Just to say I read your post with great interest......we are very very very distantly related and came across your post when doing my own branch of a family tree.My great great aunt was Elinor Brown(my surname is Brown too).Elinor Brown was the mother of 9 brothers and sisters including Laura the singer and Robert your grandfather.Obviously your branch of the tree is 'Evans' but it still interests me as it is connected to Elinor(or Eleanor...so many different spellings I've seen of her).Elinor had two other sisters and two brothers...one of her brothers was Richard Brown...my great great grandfather.....he was a stone mason in Dolgelly Wales....then followed my grandfather who grew up in Dolgelly but moved to London after WW2.....married in London.....had two sons...one my father....and he had two sons...one me!.....Anyway thanks for your interesting/detailed post.....I'm curious to know how many kids your grandfather Robert and Maguerite had and so how you are connected.....I'm just being nosy I suppose.....doing this family tree stuff makes us all a bit like that.......but we are related albeit very distantly!! BTW we share a family history in Wales which I have traced back to about 1750 in Llanidloes....a quite small village in Wales.....find it on a map as that is where we are both from some 5 or 6 generations back! All the Best....