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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: nicdigby on Monday 23 November 20 00:00 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I would love some help please proving what I think I have traced for my 3GF.
I knew from his son's marriage record that we are looking for William George Pearse (his son was Frederick and was baptised in St Pancras 10 Jun 1887). The mother's name on there for the child's baptism is Catherine but I don't know her maiden name yet.
I have found the marriage of William George Pearse on freebmd: Dec 1865 in St Geo Han Square (which is Pimlico, London). But it doesn't have the spouse name on there and I can't find the marriage cert online - can anyone find it please as it would help I think? I'm still not great at this stuff!
Ancestry search for the birth comes up with various options.... but the only London one where the marriage date of 1865 would then work is the following:
William George Pearse baptised 24 Jan 1847 at Hampstead St John, Camden, London. Father: JOhn Pearse (labourer), mother: Eliza. And a note on the baptism stating "born Dec 21 1846".
I think this is the most likely - but what I don't know how to do it is to prove it is the correct one....can anyone help please?
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Possible birth?
PEARSE, FREDERICK
Mother's Maiden Surname: STAINSBY
GRO Reference: 1885 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 16
Potential marriage in Marylebone in 1879?
William Pearse + Catherine Stainsby
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21 Sep 1879, St. Marylebone
William Pearse, full age, Cabinet Maker, father Edmund Pearse (deceased), Licensed Victualler
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Catherine Stainsby, minor, father William Stainsby, House Decorator
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Thanks Jon, that is great.
1) Where did you find the info pls? (I would like to try to search for it myself to see if I can find it as this will help me to know how to do it)
2) where she is described as a minor, does this mean under 21? Under 18?
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William George Pearse baptized 22 February 1857 St Mary Magdalen St Pancras, parents Edmund and Jane Pearse.
registered St Pancras 1857 mothers maiden name Withers.
Edmund wasn't yet married to Jane Starr nee Withers they married 25 July 1859 Battersea both were widowed.
Edmund married a lot still trying to sort them out.
Ref: ancestry
ADDED
minor meant under age 21, images of the marriage are on ancestry
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I have found the marriage of William George Pearse on freebmd: Dec 1865 in St Geo Han Square (which is Pimlico, London). But it doesn't have the spouse name on there and I can't find the marriage cert online - can anyone find it please as it would help I think? I'm still not great at this stuff!
Tip for future reference.
If you click on the blue number 513 on FreeBMD you will get the names of all those on that same page.So you know he either married Mary Ann or Emma, then try and find them together in the next census (1871) hopefully you will find which lady he married.
Marriages Dec 1865
Luckham Mary Ann St George Han.Sq 1a 513
Mitchell William St Geo Han Sq 1a 513
Pearse William George St Geo Han Sq 1a 513
Welsman Emma St Geo Han Sq 1a 513
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Thanks Jon, that is great.
1) Where did you find the info pls? (I would like to try to search for it myself to see if I can find it as this will help me to know how to do it)
2) where she is described as a minor, does this mean under 21? Under 18?
The marriage is on ancestry in London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932.
Birth of Frederick from the new GRO index.
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Thank you for your help with this so far. I have just signed back in and gone thru the info, for which I am grateful.
So I have two possible marriage dates:
One in 1865 to either Mary Ann Luckham or Emma Welsman.
Or one in 1879 to Catherine Stainsby.
Am I correct to think it must be the latter, because when his child Frederick was baptised, the mother's maiden name was Catherine?
Or do you think he married more than once?
Am very confused and can't work my way through it.
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When he married Catherine his father is Edmund.
The William George son of Edmund was born 1857 therefore he was too young to marry in 1865.
His son Frederick from the GRO index has mother's maiden name of Stainsby. The father name on the marriage is vital to tracing the family line.
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When he married Catherine his father is Edmund.
The William George son of Edmund was born 1857 therefore he was too young to marry in 1865.
His son Frederick from the GRO index has mother's maiden name of Stainsby. The father name on the marriage is vital to tracing the family line.
Thank you for explaining this, it seems so simple now you have done so but I couldn't see it before!
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Further to this, I am looking to accurately record the children from the marriage of William George Pearse to Catherine Stainsby.
I still can't find any births to the pair at all on freebmd. But I have the census records and the 1911 states they had ten children and only four survived in 1911.
How do I find the names of the others? I have got seven of them. I would be happy to flick through the St mary Magdalene parish records to see if ten were baptised there as it seems to have been the family church; how do I do find out if they're online please? ( I need an idiot's guide to doing this, I just tried in Ancestry and FindMyPast and don't know how to do it).
Thanks
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I think I have 9 out of the ten from GRO now - can anyone find the 10th pls?
Florence 1881 (died as she doesn't appear on future census records)
William George 1882
Frederick 1885 (my GGF)
James 1888 (survived to at least 24 as he's on the 1911 census)
Gretchen 1889 (think she died)
Catherine 1891 (died because there is another Catherine later)
Herbert 1893
Catherine Elsie 1899
Jane Doris 1901 born in Fulham - makes sense as one of her parents died in Fulham
That's 9. Any ideas how I find number 10?
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I can't see any more :(
There is a slight gap there in the 1890's. But it's not unheard of for there to be a "missing" child based on the numbers the parents give in the 1911 census.
We have hunted high and low before!
Could they have miscounted, or mistakenly included a still born child in their figures? :-\
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I can't see any more :(
There is a slight gap there in the 1890's. But it's not unheard of for there to be a "missing" child based on the numbers the parents give in the 1911 census.
We have hunted high and low before!
Could they have miscounted, or mistakenly included a still born child in their figures? :-\
Quite possibly. I guess we will never know. Definitely says 10 children born alive; 6 died and 4 alive on the 1911 census. There is a gap 1882-1885 so perhaps there was a child born then.
I'm grateful for your help on this one.
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Probably a still born child as Catherine was having children on schedule every 2 years except
between 1893 Herbert at St Pancras and 1899 Catherine Elsie in Fulham.
Catherine 1891 registered Marylebone death registered Pancras 1893 age 2
Gretchen 1889 St Pancras death recorded Pancras 1890 age 1
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Jane Doris birth 1901 death registered 1901 both registered Fulham.
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Jane Doris birth 1901 death registered 1901 both registered Fulham.
Thank you for these.
I think Florence b 1881 must have died as she disappaeared off the census records.
Looking for death of Herbert 1893 as well.
I know Fred survived. James is on the 1911 census aged 24. Not sure about William George b 1882. Not sure about Catherine Elsie b 1899. But we know only four survived.
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William George Pearse baptized 22 February 1857 St Mary Magdalen St Pancras, parents Edmund and Jane Pearse.
registered St Pancras 1857 mothers maiden name Withers.
Edmund wasn't yet married to Jane Starr nee Withers they married 25 July 1859 Battersea both were widowed.
Edmund married a lot still trying to sort them out.
Ref: ancestry
ADDED
minor meant under age 21, images of the marriage are on ancestry
I've been having a look at Edmund and I see what you mean; he really liked marrying!
Other Ancestry trees have three marriages but I've found the first marriage cert and it states he's a widow. But I cannot find a previous marriage - can anyone help please?
I have looked on freebmd, freereg, FindMyPast and Ancestry but I am still working out to do parish record searches.
Here is what I have:
Edmund Pearse born abt 1816, Hitchin (not verified)
27 Jul 1839 he married Mary Ann HOCKADAY
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sorry, pressed enter too soon.
For the Hockaday marriage, he was listed as a widower. Profession Victualler. Married at St Mary Islington, London. His father: Thomas Pearse, Brewer.
Next marriage:
6 Dec 1842 to Susannah ALLARD. He's listed as widowed. His father: Thomas.
Next marriage:
25 Jul 1859 to Jane STARR , a widow. He is listed as a marine store dealer which is similar to the profession on his first marriage. This marriage was in Battersea.
But why is he listed as a widower on the first marriage I can find?
So I am looking for a marriage before July 1839. His dob is approx of 1816 (taken from Ancestry other member, I haven't verified his baptism yet).
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I also cannot find the birth or baptism for Edmund.
I have found a baptism of a 13 yr old in Easton Wilts to Edmund Pearce or Pierce Father: Thomas and child born in 1816. Baptism date 25 Oct 1829. But then I see a marriage of Edmund Pearce in Easton, Wilts on Oct 18 1839. Father: Thomas. So the child's name and father's name fits but it cannot be this one because I have a record of Edmund Pearse (spelt correctly) ,marrying two months previously, to Mary Ann Hockaday in Islington, London. And on that marriage cert he is listed as widower.
Can't find Edmund Pearse's birth, baptism - or marriage prior to 1839. Would be grateful for your help.
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The marriage to Mary Ann Hockaday would be correct based on 1851 census. Child Ed./ Edmund born 1840 registered Greenwich mothers maiden name Hockerdy is living with them, Edmund is already with Jane.
Plus Jo. Tho.
Joseph John Starr 1844 reg.Frome Somerset mmn Withers although listed as Pearse is Jane' child from her first marriage.
Thomas Pearse Starr 1849 mmn Withers
Henry Pearse Star 1851.
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Thomas, Henry. Charlotte Jane, James all baptized as Pearse 8 June 1855. St. Mary, Pancras.
Charlotte Jane Pearse mmn Weathers reg. 1853 died 1856.
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The marriage to Mary Ann Hockaday would be correct based on 1851 census. Child Ed./ Edmund born 1840 registered Greenwich mothers maiden name Hockerdy is living with them, Edmund is already with Jane.
Plus Jo. Tho.
Joseph John Starr 1844 reg.Frome Somerset mmn Withers although listed as Pearse is Jane' child from her first marriage.
Thomas Pearse Starr 1849 mmn Withers
Henry Pearse Star 1851.
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Thomas, Henry. Charlotte Jane, James all baptized as Pearse 8 June 1855. St. Mary, Pancras.
Charlotte Jane Pearse mmn Weathers reg. 1853 died 1856.
Thank you. I have written this down!
Are you able to find Edmund’s first marriage please? ie one before his 1839 marriage to Mary Ann where he was listed as status: widower?
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Not yet, 1861 he says born Hitchin Herts, all others born Somerset, maybe Jane gave the answers.
I'll look tomorrow need to sleep.
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Edmund Pearse seems to have had trouble with the law. If this is the same man he seems a bit young.
Herts Assizes
1819 guilty of larceny 14 days and whipped
1820 guilty of larceny 3 months
18 October 1821 guilty of larceny 7 years transportation. Repeat offender.
Arrived Van Dieman's Land Tasmania 22 March 1822.Name spelled Pearce on this record.
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Old Bailey London 16 September 1839 charged with a misdemeanor he was found not guilty.
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So if he is your man he could have married in Australia, if the 7 years starts when he is sentenced then he could be back in England by 1828/1829 time frame OR when he got back.
Till other records are online it's the only thing I come up with as to why he is a widower in 1839.
You need someone with more expertise on Australian records to sort this out. Perhaps a new post focusing on Edmund Pearse/Pearce born circa 1808-1810 arriving Van Dieman's Land 22 March 1822. An age is definitely needed.
I have not found deaths for Mary (Hockerday)Pearse although she may have died in childbirth with Edmund 1840 or within the year.
OR Susanah/Susan (Snape/Allard) Pearse married in 1842 he is with Jane by 1846.
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First child registered to Edmund Pearse and Jane Starr is Thomas Pearse Starr 1846 Bermondsey
he must have died as there is a second Thomas Pearse Starr registered 1849 at St Pancras.
Possible baptism Edmund Pearse son of William and Elizabeth 9 July 1809 St Mary Hitch Herts.
You have a time line, born Hitchin Herts ref 1861 census, poss. transportation to Australia 1822 court records, first known child registered Greenwich Kent 1840, second child 1846 Bermondsey, all others at St Pancras till the youngest George Pearse 1860 registered Marylebone mothers maiden name Weathers.
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Edmund Pearse seems to have had trouble with the law. If this is the same man he seems a bit young.
Herts Assizes
1819 guilty of larceny 14 days and whipped
1820 guilty of larceny 3 months
18 October 1821 guilty of larceny 7 years transportation. Repeat offender.
Arrived Van Dieman's Land Tasmania 22 March 1822.Name spelled Pearce on this record.
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Old Bailey London 16 September 1839 charged with a misdemeanor he was found not guilty.
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So if he is your man he could have married in Australia, if the 7 years starts when he is sentenced then he could be back in England by 1828/1829 time frame OR when he got back.
Till other records are online it's the only thing I come up with as to why he is a widower in 1839.
You need someone with more expertise on Australian records to sort this out. Perhaps a new post focusing on Edmund Pearse/Pearce born circa 1808-1810 arriving Van Dieman's Land 22 March 1822. An age is definitely needed.
I have not found deaths for Mary (Hockerday)Pearse although she may have died in childbirth with Edmund 1840 or within the year.
OR Susanah/Susan (Snape/Allard) Pearse married in 1842 he is with Jane by 1846.
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First child registered to Edmund Pearse and Jane Starr is Thomas Pearse Starr 1846 Bermondsey
he must have died as there is a second Thomas Pearse Starr registered 1849 at St Pancras.
Possible baptism Edmund Pearse son of William and Elizabeth 9 July 1809 St Mary Hitch Herts.
You have a time line, born Hitchin Herts ref 1861 census, poss. transportation to Australia 1822 court records, first known child registered Greenwich Kent 1840, second child 1846 Bermondsey, all others at St Pancras till the youngest George Pearse 1860 registered Marylebone mothers maiden name Weathers.
Thank you so much for this, you’ve been really helpful and I’m so grateful. Will do a post in the Australian section to see where we go from here!
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More info which I think I have discovered today.
I have ruled out the following men called Edmund Pearse:
1) The one born 1809, Hitchin: his parents were William and Eliz and I know (from his 1839 and 1842 and 1859 marriage records) that his father was definitely Thomas. Also this Edmund died 1835 age 26 years.
2) The one born 1816 in Easton, Wilts and baptised and married there; his 1839 marriage comes at the same time as MY Edmund's marriage in another place and to another woman
3) The one living in Tavistock Square London who was a surgeon, living with wife Isabella and son Reginald = wrong wife and child names and no record of anyone in my family being medical.This is the one who everyone on Ancestry has copied each other to give a death year of 1873 aged 57.
What I have found:
*A baptism record, 20 Mar 1801, Hitchin, Herts (so the correct location of birth as per later census records) (FamilySearch). Father: Thomas (correct) - labourer. Mother=Ann.
*I found the transportation record amongd found. He was found guilty of theft/larceny 18 Oct 1821 and - location of crimes = Hitchin. Sent to Van Diemen's Land (Ancestry) on the Prince of Orange 23 Mar 1822. For 7 years. So he was out there until at least 1829.
*I have found a possible marriage record: Edmund Pearce m Anne Martin 25 Nov 1833, Snake Banks, Longford, Tasmania. The name Jane Martin is on the wedding record and it's crossed out and Anne is written in instead and she signed with a X
I'm working on the theory that she died and he managed to return to England. Can anyone find his immigration back to England pls?
He then married in 1839, 842 and 1859.
And then, having discounted other deaths, I have found one that almost matches the year of baptism as 1801:
"Edmund Pearce, age 72, died of chronic bronchitis, Jan 20 1872, Marylebone workhouse"
I'm not sure that the death record is correct as he would have been 70 if he was born Mar 1801, not 72. Can anyone find another death record (that isn't the 1873 one of the Tavistock Square surgeon whose probate was given to his son Reginald).
Many thanks
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Hi,
The 1871 census has Edmund Pearce age 71, publican, b Hitchin, residing in St Marylebone Workhouse. He was baptised in March 1801, but could well have been born some months earlier.
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Hi,
The 1871 census has Edmund Pearce age 71, publican, b Hitchin, residing in St Marylebone Workhouse. He was baptised in March 1801, but could well have been born some months earlier.
This makes sense, thank you.
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Hello, I spent yesterday tracking Edmund after he was transported to Australia but he did return to London - and I cannot find out where he was for the 1851 census...can anyone find him please?
He was living with Jane Starr (not married yet but became wife #4 in 1859. She was born maiden name Withers in Somerset) and his sons: Edmund (born 1840 to Mary Ann), Joseph (b 1844), and Thomas (b 1849).
Edit: Have found the family on the 1851 census.
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Also, wife #3 is elusive: I can see their marriage record of Susannah ALLARD, widow, to Edmund Pearse on 6 Dec 1842. On it her father is William SNAPE.
I have searched without success on freebmd, ancestry, familysearch and FindMyPast for:
1) her first marriage - so between Snape and Allard....can anyone find it?
2) her baptism (father's name William Snape)
3) her death record. I have one possible - Susan Pearse 1844 Marylebone. NB. Edmund Pearse had a child with wife 4 (Jane Starr) in 1846. So I thought she must have died before then BUT they didn't marry until ten years later, in 1859...maybe wife #3 Susannah was still alive til then?
Thank you all in advance.
Link to Edmund's Australian adventures: my grandmother would NOT be happy to know she was descended from this crook
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840804.new#new
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This has become very difficult to follow as you have multiple threads relating to the same person going at the same time.
Do you have Edmund in the 1861 census, or is this him?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7G7-2WR
Perhaps it is wrong to assume one wife had died before he moved to the next???
Also he may have fathered children, although not living with the mother.
What information is on the marriage record to Susannah Allard. Place and date of marriage; her age and marital state, father's name and occupation?
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The family in 1871 census, while Edmund was in the workhouse.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRN1-PTP
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This has become very difficult to follow as you have multiple threads relating to the same person going at the same time.
Do you have Edmund in the 1861 census, or is this him?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7G7-2WR
Perhaps it is wrong to assume one wife had died before he moved to the next???
Also he may have fathered children, although not living with the mother.
What information is on the marriage record to Susannah Allard. Place and date of marriage; her age and marital state, father's name and occupation?
Thank you. It's difficult because I was advised to start a separate thread in the Australian section, which I did and got a lot of help on Edmund's Australian marriage etc on there. But when I have asked if anyone can find info on wife 3 and 4, that is London-based so thought I would do better to post it back in the London section on this thread.
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What information is on the marriage record to Susannah Allard. Place and date of marriage; her age and marital state, father's name and occupation?
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I have now found Edmund and Jane on the 1851 census. That's wife 4.
Wife 3: I am still stuck. On her marriage to Edmund in Dec 1842 it states:
Trinity Church, Marylebone. 6 Dec 1842. Edmund Pearse of full age, widower, licensed victualler, Norton St, Ftaher (dec) Thomas m Susannah Allard of full age, widow, Norton St, father: William Snape. Mechanic.
I would like to find her baptism as Susannah Snape, first marriage to a Mr Allard, and particularly her death to see if she died before Edmund went onto wife 4.
Many thanks and apologies for any confusion. I am confused trying to wade through all his marriages and children!
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There is a George Allard of Frome Somerset who married Susan Finall Snape of Bathwick 16 December 1835 by license at Bathwick both were of age and from the license he was a farmer.
Witness John Allard, Mary Allard and John Ward.
This prior to civil registration so there are no fathers names listed.
George Allard was buried 5 December 1840 age 26 at St John Frome Somerset.
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This has already been asked and answered in a duplicate thread. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840804.msg7069861
Unfortunately people who are kindly helping are unknowingly wasting their time. >:(
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The Susan Pearse who died 1844 Marylebone was age 72 so not the correct Susan.
Ref: GRO Index.
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Wife 4 Jane Starr nee Withers, left her husband about a year after her son Joseph was born.
She married Zachariah Starr 23 December 1843 St John Frome Somerset.
her father Thomas a smith, his father Joseph a weaver.
Zachariah was no angel 1852 he is the Wilton Goal at Taunton, 1853 age 26 sallow complexion he gets 6 months for perjury. There may be more.
He then remarries as a bachelor as James Zachariah Starr to Louisa Stone 14 June 1855 Taunton.
Still giving his occupation as a cordwainer and father as Joseph a weaver.
Zachariah dies in 1864.
Generally the wait was 7 years to declare someone dead or remarry after desertion.
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There is a Mary Ann Pearse age 26 convicted of larceny sentenced to 1 month in prison. Middlesex 10 August 1840
The age is correct.
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This has already been asked and answered in a duplicate thread. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840804.msg7069861
Unfortunately people who are kindly helping are unknowingly wasting their time. >:(
Thank you Neale and apologies again that the questions about Susannah have been duplicated; I accidentally posted them first on the Australian board. I am grateful for your help.
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The Susan Pearse who died 1844 Marylebone was age 72 so not the correct Susan.
Ref: GRO Index.
Damn! Thank you.
Given his first two wives also died young, I'm starting to think he did away with Susannah and moved onto Jane! Can anyone find her death please?!
Edit: I have found Susannah PearCe death record, Q1 1845, St Pancras. Can anyone tell me more about this one please as I've only found those details....can anyone find the age of this lady?
Source: Ancestry, England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
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Wife 4 Jane Starr nee Withers, left her husband about a year after her son Joseph was born.
She married Zachariah Starr 23 December 1843 St John Frome Somerset.
her father Thomas a smith, his father Joseph a weaver.
Zachariah was no angel 1852 he is the Wilton Goal at Taunton, 1853 age 26 sallow complexion he gets 6 months for perjury. There may be more.
He then remarries as a bachelor as James Zachariah Starr to Louisa Stone 14 June 1855 Taunton.
Still giving his occupation as a cordwainer and father as Joseph a weaver.
Zachariah dies in 1864.
Generally the wait was 7 years to declare someone dead or remarry after desertion.
Thanks very much for this. So we know she and Zacariah weren't together by 1846 because a pp found the birth of a son Thomas in 1846 to Jane and Edmund Pearse. (That son died and their next one in 1849 was also called Thomas).
Could Zacariah have left Jane in eg 1844/45? And could the seven years desertion rule be the reason that Jane and Edmund didn't get married until a decade after their first child was born?
Or perhaps they couldn't marry because he had deserted Susannah? Maybe she didn't die and she lived somewhere else and died later?
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There is a Mary Ann Pearse age 26 convicted of larceny sentenced to 1 month in prison. Middlesex 10 August 1840
The age is correct.
Thank you for this, I think late last night I stumbled across a record that she was sentenced to 7 years transportation for larceny and so I think that's how she and Edmund got together. Or maybe I dreamt that, I need to check it!
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She was 20 in 1834 Australian records so age 26 in 1840 Middlesex would fit.
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What a pair!
"How did you meet?"
"Well we were both caught thieving and sent to Australia for seven years where we met and fell in love..."
Edit: think I may have the wrong wife!
I am still trying to find Susannah's death/burial.
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Hello again.
Can someone please tell me how I narrow down the possibiities of Susan/Susanna/Susannah Pearce/Pearse deaths please?
I have searched Ancestry, FindMyPast and FS and in all three cases the problem is there is limited info eg Susannah Pearce, Frome, Q2 1850; I can't see a burial record and even if I could, how do I know it's the right person without ordering what could be dozens of death certificates.
I've tried in her home town where her first marriage was (Frome) and there are several possibilities just for that. But she married Edmund in Marylebone, London, and there are many possibiities for that too. I don't know how to narrow it down (still learning).
Many thanks
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I have now found Edmund and Jane on the 1851 census.
Where? List details or provide link please.
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I have now found Edmund and Jane on the 1851 census.
Where? List details or provide link please.
Hope this works: down the bottom.
Looking at it again, I am not sure. The children are the correct ages and the correct names. But he was born in Herts and it says Somersetshire. And he should be 50 by 1851, not 40. Hmmmmmmm. Maybe not. What do you think?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/MDXHO107_1493_1493-1583?pId=2421936
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Where in 1851 census?
I don’t have ancestry.
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Hello again.
Can someone please tell me how I narrow down the possibiities of Susan/Susanna/Susannah Pearce/Pearse deaths please?
I have searched Ancestry, FindMyPast and FS and in all three cases the problem is there is limited info eg Susannah Pearce, Frome, Q2 1850; I can't see a burial record and even if I could, how do I know it's the right person without ordering what could be dozens of death certificates.
On the GRO site (free to search, once you register) you can see the age at death, name and the place registered.
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There is an Edmund Pierce, 51, born Herts, in St Pancras in 1851. Might be a possibility perhaps :-\
Relationship looks like Potman to me (rather than porter, as transcribed on FS). Says he is married.
Head is Jonas Bailey, a publican.
Piece 1497 folio 18 page 29
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGXX-P67
FS say age 57, but I think it might be the top of the 5 going onto the 1.
Second opinion needed!
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There is a Mary Ann Pearse age 26 convicted of larceny sentenced to 1 month in prison. Middlesex 10 August 1840
Thank you for this, I think late last night I stumbled across a record that she was sentenced to 7 years transportation for larceny and so I think that's how she and Edmund got together. Or maybe I dreamt that, I need to check it!
You seem to have forgotton that Mary Ann arrived in Tasmania as an immigrant / servant; not as a convict. When she and Edmund met, she was not a criminal. (This is on your other thread relating to the same subject.) She may have offended later in life once they had returned to London.
A gentle suggestion to slow down for a moment, and collect all your information from the various threads into one clear chronological document, so it will make more sense, stop you getting confused, and allow you to see where you have gaps in information.
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There is an Edmund Pierce, 51, born Herts, in St Pancras in 1851. Might be a possibility perhaps :-\
Relationship looks like Potman to me (rather than porter, as transcribed on FS). Says he is married.
Head is Jonas Bailey, a publican.
Piece 1497 folio 18 page 29
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGXX-P67
FS say age 57, but I think it might be the top of the 5 going onto the 1.
Second opinion needed!
The place and occupation - working in a pub, looks possible.
Note that in the 1861 census, his age is 10 years out (born 1811)
I also wondered about this entry in 1851. The age and occupation are about correct, although place of birth is not. I think it is less likely than the one in St Pancras found by JonW
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGZ8-MMV
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Hello again.
Can someone please tell me how I narrow down the possibiities of Susan/Susanna/Susannah Pearce/Pearse deaths please?
I have searched Ancestry, FindMyPast and FS and in all three cases the problem is there is limited info eg Susannah Pearce, Frome, Q2 1850; I can't see a burial record and even if I could, how do I know it's the right person without ordering what could be dozens of death certificates.
On the GRO site (free to search, once you register) you can see the age at death, name and the place registered.
Thank you, I've just been taking a look and can see it's a great way of ruling deaths out due to being the wrong age.
Am I correct in thinking that it only gives you a 2 year max either way of the estimated year? So would it be best to find likely births on other sites and then enter them into the GRO to see what gets ruled in or out?
For example, Susannah Pearse died Q2 Holborn in 1880; GRO says she was 62 at the time so her approx dob was 1818 which fits in with her baptism record that we already think we have. Is there any other way of shoring that up without paying £11 for a certificate?
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There is an Edmund Pierce, 51, born Herts, in St Pancras in 1851. Might be a possibility perhaps :-\
Relationship looks like Potman to me (rather than porter, as transcribed on FS). Says he is married.
Head is Jonas Bailey, a publican.
Piece 1497 folio 18 page 29
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGXX-P67
FS say age 57, but I think it might be the top of the 5 going onto the 1.
Second opinion needed!
Thanks Jon. I read his age as 57 which would mean he was born too early for the St Pancras Edmund to be him. Also although his name is sometimes spelt at Pearce rather than Pearse I've never seen it as Pierce (I know spellers are common).
But my main concern with accepting this Edmund is that in 1851 he was right in the middle of having a long line of children with Jane: one was born in 1849 and another in 1852 and more before and after them. Seems strange he would be living as a single lodger when Jane and children presumbably living locally as well.
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Hope this works: down the bottom.
Looking at it again, I am not sure. The children are the correct ages and the correct names. But he was born in Herts and it says Somersetshire. And he should be 50 by 1851, not 40. Hmmmmmmm. Maybe not. What do you think?
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/MDXHO107_1493_1493-1583?pId=2421936
Hi
Here they are on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGTJ-Z1Q
As you say, the children match with 1861 (though up I'm not up with the info on the eldest one). Jane is born Somerset in 1861. Next son Henry is to come later in 1851.
His (Ed's) details are out, he wasn't born in Somerset. But though his age, 40, is wrong, we have to bear in mind that he said he was 50 in 1861.
So, all in all, it looks as though you may have found them. Hopefully!
John
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This is interesting....Edmund and Mary Ann (wife 2) had a son Edmund in 1840. I've just found a record of him on Ancestry joining the merchant navy on 18 Jan 1855, age 15.
And then probate for him; he died in Sydney Dec 1857. Probate : his father Edmund of Ridinghouse Street - the same address as given for them on the 1861 census. So it backs up the case that the 1861 census is them, but his age is wrong on it.
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Usually the ladies loose years as they get older, in 1841 Edmund Pearse was 40 so born circa 1800
not born in county. In 1851 and 1861 he looses 10 years, ages are often incorrect on the census it depends on who gave the information.
1841 Lower Road Islington
Edmund Pearse 41 Publican not born in County
Mary Ann Pearse 24 not born in county (wife #2)
Edmund Pearse 17 Months (son of wife #2)
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1851 census 3 Welling? Street Camden
Ed Pearse 40 Lab born Somerset- labourer
Jane Pearse 30 born Somerset (actually still Jane Starr)
Ed Pearse 11 (son of wife #2) born London (reg Greenwih Kent 1840)
Jos Pearse 6 born London (actually Joseph John Starr son of Jane by her 1st marriage born Frome Somerset)
Thos Pearse 4 born London (correct name Thomas Pearse Starr 1849 reg, Bermondsey)
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1861 Census Riding Horse Street
Edmund Pearse 50 born Hitchin Herts. Marine Store Dealer
Jane Pearse 35 born Somerset
Joseph Pearse 17 born Somerset (correct name Joseph John Starr)
Henry Pearse 10 born MDX (correct name Henry Pearse Starr)1851 reg. St Pancras with no mmn.
Thomas Pearse 12 born Middlesex (correct name Thomas Pearse Starr)
James Pearse 6 born Middlesex (reg as James Pearse no mmn 1855)
William Pearse 4 born Middlesex (reg William George Pearse St Pancras 1857 mmn Weathers)
George Pearse 1 born Middlesex (reg. Marylebone 1860 mmn Weathers)
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Usually the ladies loose years as they get older, in 1841 Edmund Pearse was 40 so born circa 1800
not born in county. In 1851 and 1861 he looses 10 years, ages are often incorrect on the census it depends on who gave the information.
1841 Lower Road Islington
Edmund Pearse 41 Publican not born in County
Mary Ann Pearse 24 not born in county (wife #2)
Edmund Pearse 17 Months (son of wife #2)
-----
1851 census 3 Welling? Street Camden
Ed Pearse 40 Lab born Somerset- labourer
Jane Pearse 30 born Somerset (actually still Jane Starr)
Ed Pearse 11 (son of wife #2) born London (reg Greenwih Kent 1840)
Jos Pearse 6 born London (actually Joseph John Starr son of Jane by her 1st marriage born Frome Somerset)
Thos Pearse 4 born London (correct name Thomas Pearse Starr 1849 reg, Bermondsey)
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1861 Census Riding Horse Street
Edmund Pearse 50 born Hitchin Herts. Marine Store Dealer
Jane Pearse 35 born Somerset
Joseph Pearse 17 born Somerset (correct name Joseph John Starr)
Henry Pearse 10 born MDX (correct name Henry Pearse Starr)1851 reg. St Pancras with no mmn.
Thomas Pearse 12 born Middlesex (correct name Thomas Pearse Starr)
James Pearse 6 born Middlesex (reg as James Pearse no mmn 1855)
William Pearse 4 born Middlesex (reg William George Pearse St Pancras 1857 mmn Weathers)
George Pearse 1 born Middlesex (reg. Marylebone 1860 mmn Weathers)
Thank you for this excellent summary! Maybe Edmund just lied about his age.
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Susannah Pearce who died 1850 Frome Somerset was age 71.
www.gro.gov.uk
sign in here its free once you register and get maiden names on births and ages at death.
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Notice Jane lost 5 years between 1851 and 1861 as well.
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Susannah Pearce who died 1850 Frome Somerset was age 71.
www.gro.gov.uk
sign in here its free once you register and get maiden names on births and ages at death.
THANK YOU. Is it correct with the GRO register that I can only search births and deaths and there is only 2 years leeway on the year and you have to change it manually to male/female each time ? Am I doing it correctly? Seems very laborious if you're not sure on year and are looking for children.
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Notice Jane lost 5 years between 1851 and 1861 as well.
;D
I wonder if they were trying to hide from the authorities, given his background, hence they lied about birth places and ages?
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Re GRO Index
2 years either way from the year entered equals a five year search each time.
You can also use freebmd to narrow down prospects before switching to the GRO.
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Re GRO Index
2 years either way from the year entered equals a five year search each time.
You can also use freebmd to narrow down prospects before switching to the GRO.
Thank you for this, so if I was searching for a child’s birth that I thought was in the mid 1850s, for example, would I start on selecting the year 1852 with +/- 2 years (to cover 1850-1854) and then go up to 1857 (to cover 1855-1859)?
If so I’ve been doing it wrong, I was doing 1850 male and female, then 1852 male and female etc.
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Thank you for this, so if I was searching for a child’s birth that I thought was in the mid 1850s, for example, would I start on selecting the year 1852 with +/- 2 years (to cover 1850-1854) and then go up to 1857 (to cover 1855-1859)?
Exactly correct. :)
Remember to search with "similar sounding variations" to try to catch different spellings.