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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Dufftown on Tuesday 24 November 20 02:11 GMT (UK)
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I believe William ( younger ) Innes to be the son of William ( elder ) Innes and McDonald.
Fact No:1 William ( younger ) Innes died 15 Dec.1861 at Craighead in Inveravon. His DE tells us that he was 83 thus making his date of birth to be 1778. His father was William Innes and mother unknown.
Fact No:2 William ( younger ) married Margaret Grant 16 Aug.1806 with 1 child Alexander born 10 Jan.1808.
Fact No:3 William ( younger ) married Janet Cameron on the 27 Jun.1814 Inveravon.
In my next posting I will show you the birth extract for Alexander Innes born 10 Jan.1808 son of William ( younger ) Innes and Margaret Grant. I shows that William ( elder ) Innes to be a witness and that he was a soldier.
William in Montreal
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Are you asking for help here Dufftown?
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Its strange as on Alexanders 1808 Bapt transcribed on FreeREG that note has;
Wit: Alex'r Innes soldier & William McPherson, Kearn
They also have Margaret as Mary on Marriage (to be fair I havent seen the original if you have is it Margt*?)
Also a Marriage;
19 Sep 1770
Elizabeth MCDONALD
William INNES
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Just posting this until you confirm the actual image of 1808 Bapt has William and not Alex'r Innes as a witness.
1851 Census
Bridge End navie, Inveravon
Alexr Innes 77 Out Pensioner** Of Chalrey Hospille
Elisabath Innes 58 Pensioners wife
William Innes 31 Son Grocer
Janet Innes 28 Daug
Alexr Innes 26 Son
Margaret Stuart 56 Relation
Elspat Hepburn 16 Visitor
Margaret Grant 19 Servant
William Innes 1 Nephew
1861 we have;
Elizabeth Innes 70
William Innes 41
Janet Innes 39
Margaret Stuart 69 Sister*
William Innes 11 Grandson
Janet Innes 2
Trish :)
3 Nov 1818 Marriage on FreeREG, Alexr INNES/Elizabeth STEWART
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1851 Census
Bridge End navie, Inveravon
Alexr Innes 77 Out Pensioner** Of Chalrey Hospille
Is this "Ancestry strikes again"?
Dufftown has posted the original on one of his duplicate threads - see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840026.msg7061002#msg7061002
FreeCEN has Bridge End, Navie and Out Pensioner Chelsey Hospitle, with a note suggesting that this last bit is Chelsea Hospital.
Navie is now spelled Nevie. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.33217&lon=-3.31429&layers=5&b=1
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Here is the birth of Alexander Innes 10 Jan.1808. Son of William ( younger ) Innes and Margaret Grant.
The spelling of Quern was also spelt Keirn. This is where the Innesses were before moving to Craighead Farm in Inveravon.
The witness William Innes, soldier is that of William ( elder ) Innes and McDonald
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Here is more info on William ( elder ) Innes. I have a note that says that he was a Captain in a FootGuard Regiment which to me means he travelled to may places. As for his spouse she also used the Alais of McAlister.
William in Montreal
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"Fact No:1 William ( younger ) Innes died 15 Dec.1861 at Craighead in Inveravon. His DE tells us that he was 83 thus making his date of birth to be 1778. His father was William Innes and mother unknown."
What occ. was given for William (elder) on the death cert. for William (younger)?
Annie
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Hi Annie. It says: HIS FATHER WAS WILLIAM MOTHER UNKNOWN, I am now saying that this William I am calling William ( elder ) Innes. Regarding his wife Margaret McDonald she used an alais McAlister.
Recently we were able to confirm that one of his children was Alexander Innes who died 12 December1861 at Bridge of Navie, Glenlivet, Banff, Scotland.
My, confirmed ancestor William ( younger ) Innes married a Margaret Grant 16 Aug.1806 and they had 1 child only called Alexander who was born 10 January 1808. This extract from ScotlandPeople shows a witness called William Innes ( soldier ) who turns out to be William ( elder ) Innes, grandfather to Alexander Innes born 10 Jan.1808
William in montreal
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Sorry I disagree.
Looking at the image the 1808 Bapts witness is Alexr Innes Soldier not William.
Look at the writing below, of the name William in William Mcpherson.
So appears to me the Alexander 1851 Census I posted was the witness.
Trish :)
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I agree with Trish
The full entry reads:
Jany 10th 1808
Innes Alexr lawful son to William Innes and Margaret Grant in Kearn was baptised
Witnesses Alexr Innes soldier and William McPherson Kearn
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I agree with Trish & Gadget.
From Reply #7...
Question may have been missed...
"What occ. was given for William (elder) on the death cert. for William (younger)?"
Annie
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I agree with Trish, Gadget and Rosinish.
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The spelling of Quern was also spelt Keirn. This is where the Innesses were before moving to Craighead Farm in Inveravon.
William, I know that you already know that Craighead is also known as Craighead of Quirn, and that it is the next farm to Mains of Quirn/Kearn/Cairn/Keirn, and that both are in the parish of Inveravon. So they may not have moved at all, and if they did it was not very far and within the same parish.
See https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1924
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The William Innes , father to Alexander Innes born Jan.10, 1808 and in my view to be William ( younger ) Innes
Alexander Innes, soldier, mentioned in the extract was actually the son of William ( elder ) Innes.
William ( elder ) is supposed to have been a CAPT. in a Foot Brigade. To be verified.
Therefore William ( elder ) Innes had a son named Alexander.which we have confirmed . We are now looking to see if William ( younger ) Innes, father of Alexander Innes, born Jan.10, 1808 was actually the son of William ( elder ) Innes
William in montreal
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William INNES/Janet CAMERON Bapt;
ANNE 13 Jun 1815
JOHN 18 Feb 1820 Wit: William McPherson there & James Innes in Muir of Croftbane
WILLIAM 28 Feb 1822
(only ones I could find on FreeREG, I dont have access to Scot*)
Which leads to this 1841 Census;
Craighead
William Innes 60 Farmer
Janet Innes 50
William Innes 15
Jane Innes 15
Janet Innes 14
Cathrine Innes 12
James Mcpherson 3
I cant see any ref to William being widowed on marriage to Janet.
1851/1861 William is born c 1778 Inveravon
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William INNES/Janet CAMERON Bapt;
ANNE 13 Jun 1815
JOHN 18 Feb 1820 Wit: William McPherson there & James Innes in Muir of Croftbane
WILLIAM 28 Feb 1822
(only ones I could find on FreeREG, I dont have access to Scot*)
The baptisms of William Innes' and Janet Cameron's daughters Margaret on 17 February 1818 and Jean on 2 March 1824 are in the index to Roman Catholic baptisms on Scotland's People.
I have been looking, so far unsuccessfully, for a long letter I wrote to William about 25 years (yes, a quarter of a century) ago with extracts from the Roman Catholic baptism registers in Inveravon and Kirkmichael relating to the Innes family and some of their descendants. If I can find it I will scan it and post it here to save anyone duplicating the work already done.
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Thanks Forfarian :)
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Hi Trish. I don't know when Janet Cameron died but she is in 1841 Cenus but not in the 1851. It has to be within those years.
Forfarian: Are you referring to the Glenlivet Status Animorium for 1814 and 1834. I have both.
I thought that I was only 39??
William in Montreal
Is there a chance tho get back to the marriage of William ( younger Innes ) and Margaret Grant??????????
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Well, I corresponded extensively in the 1990s and 2000s with William Innes, who always signed himself 'William in Montreal', who was researching these same Innes families in Glenlivet, and who, until I went to the Heritage Centre in Elgin and transcribed the baptisms in the Roman Catholic parish registers from the microfilms there (this being before the RC records were added to Scotland's People), did not know that he had RC ancestors.
I also trekked up various hills to photograph various gravestones and ruins including the RC cemetery at Buiternach, Craighead and Mains of Quirn/Cairn/Kearn.
As you are asking about the identical people and places, and signing yourself 'William in Montreal' I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that you are the same person. If not, I will have to redouble my efforts to find the old correspondence! :)
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Still can't find the letter, but I did find, in an old PAF file dated 2004, the bones of the work I did back then. See attached.
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What occ. was given for William (elder) on the death cert. for William (younger)?
Farmer.
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We are now looking to see if William ( younger ) Innes, father of Alexander Innes, born Jan.10, 1808 was actually the son of William ( elder ) Innes
Well, that is what the death certificate says, and the death was registered by William, son of William younger and grandson of William elder, so I don't think there is any doubt about that.
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1851 Census
Bridge End Navie, Inveravon
Alexr Innes 77 Out Pensioner
So are we thinking that this Alexander Innes, born 1773/1774 if his age in 1851 is accurate, is a brother of William Innes who was born 1777/1779?
It would be reasonable to suppose that he enlisted around 1790 or perhaps a few years later, and served in the Napoleonic Wars, and was discharged after the end of hostilities in 1815. That would fit with him returning to Glenlivet and getting married in 1818.
There was an Alexander Innes who (according to catalogues and indexes) served with the 42nd Regiment of Foot, being promoted to Ensign in 1810 and Lieutenant in 1812. The 42nd was, of course, the Black Watch. See https://theblackwatch.co.uk/research/trace-a-soldier/
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1) Alexander Innes born about 1774 was a brother to William ( younger ) Innes .
2) Alexander Innes was the son of William ( elder ) Innes and mcDonald.
3) Alexander Innes born about 1774 married Elizabeth Stewart 3 Nov.1818.
4) Elizabeth Stewart, wife of Alexander Innes born about 1774 died 9 Nov.1875 Laggan, Glenlivet, Inveravon.
5) Alexander Innes born about 1774 was a Sergeant with the Gordon Highlanders and I have a Report from The Gordon Highlanders telling me that Alexander Innes, Sergeant took psrt in the Battle of Waterloo. I will send a copy.
6) Thanks for that lead about William ( elder ) Innes. I will check with the Black Watch
William in Montreal
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1) Alexander Innes born about 1774 was a brother to William ( younger ) Innes .
2) Alexander Innes was the son of William ( elder ) Innes and mcDonald.
Very good.
What is your evidence for the above?
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I have looked at four sources for the Alexander Innes in the 42nd.
1 - Lieutenant 1st Bn. 42nd in America 1784
2 - Lieutenant 42nd in Nova Scotia in 1787
3 - officer 42nd (not stated which rank) in the Peninsula 1810
4 - ensign 42nd in medal rolls at Toulouse and Waterloo (1815)
Presumably 1 and 2 are the same man, if so, he would be too old to be your Alexander Innes.
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Well, it has taken me a while, but I found it. It's an e-mail, not a letter, and it is only 16 years old, not 25. Also I could only find a print-out of it, not the electronic version, so I have scanned it.
Edit: Sorry, I didn't realise that it would all be displayed on the thread!
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You certainly pushed the boat out Forfarian!
I have no idea whether this is connected or of any use as I can't read any of it? ::)
Will of Alexander Innes of Banff , Banffshire but you need to log in to download it free
"Reference: PROB 11/1604/287
Description: Will of Alexander Innes of Banff , Banffshire
Date: 20 May 1818"
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D226379
I think it's one for the Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition board.
Annie
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Regarding his wife Margaret McDonald she used an alais McAlister.
Can you tell us where you've seen Margaret with the surname McAlister?
It was common in the Highlands (at least on the islands & still to this day) for people to be referred to by many different things such as their occ./hair colour/size etc. but always minus their surname e.g...
Margaret Alister = Margaret, dau of Alexander which may have been taken to mean the surname MacAlister?
Annie
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I have no idea whether this is connected or of any use as I can't read any of it? ::)
Will of Alexander Innes of Banff , Banffshire but you need to log in to download it free.
No, I think not.
The handwriting is fine but the digital image is messy, making it harder than it should be to read. He names various of his siblings and their spouses and children, none of whom have anything to do with the Glenlivet Innes family at the other end of the county.
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I am not ready to reply about the marriage of William Innes and Janet Cameron. Perhaps later.
1) I consider this William as now being William ( younger ) Innes with his 2nd wife Janet Cameron.
2) William ( younger ) Innes and Margaret Grant was Williams' 1st wife.
3) William and Margaret Grant had 1 child, namely Alexander Innes. It is assumed that Margaret Grant died. This is what we were discussing.
William in Montreal
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It was indeed, but there doesn't seem to be any doubt those facts so I am not sure that there is anything to be gained discussing it further, unless you have one or more specific questions arising from it.
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Alexander Innes was a Chelsea Pensioner and son of William ( elder ) Innes. This is a Report from the Gordon Highlanders.
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Alexander Innes born 10 Jan.1808 was the son of William ( younger ) Innes and his 1st wife Margaret Grant.
The witness to Alexander Innes birth 10 Jan.1808 was Alexander Innes, soldier.
Alexander Innes, soldier can therefore be only Alexander Innes, Chelsea Pensioner and son of William ( elder ) Innes and McDonald.
I am, also saying that, William ( younger ) Innes and Alexander Innes son of William ( elder ) Innes were brothers.
William in Montreal
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Alexander Innes born 10 Jan.1808 was the son of William ( younger ) Innes and his 1st wife Margaret Grant.
The witness to Alexander Innes birth 10 Jan.1808 was Alexander Innes, soldier.
Alexander Innes, soldier can therefore be only Alexander Innes, Chelsea Pensioner and son of William ( elder ) Innes and McDonald.
I am, also saying that, William ( younger ) Innes and Alexander Innes son of William ( elder ) Innes were brothers.
Yes, I get all that, and I think you are probably right.
But implicit in those statements are two assumptions: (a) that William Innes, husband of Margaret Grant, was also married to Janet Cameron and (b) that Alexander Innes, soldier, was the brother of William Innes rather than a cousin or indeed unrelated to him?
1. What evidence do you have that Janet Cameron's husband was the widower of Margaret Grant?
2. What evidence do you have that Alexander Innes, soldier, was the brother of Margaret Grant's husband?
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William ( younger ) Innes did marry Margaret Innes on the 16 Aug.1806 and it states the following:
August 16, 1806
William Innes junior in Kearn and Margaret Grant.
I do not know when margaret Grant died but the IGI shows only the birth of Alexander Innes born 10 Jan.1808.
The others that the IGI shows is that of a Penuel Innes which is your family not mine.
This now tells me that William Innes junior in Kearn is now known as William ( younger ) Innes therefore son of William ( elder ) Innes.
I will now show 3 more names who were children of William ( elder )
William Innes in Montreal
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William ( younger ) Innes did marry Margaret Innes on the 16 Aug.1806 and it states the following:
August 16, 1806
William Innes junior in Kearn and Margaret Grant.
I do not know when margaret Grant died but the IGI shows only the birth of Alexander Innes born 10 Jan.1808.
This now tells me that William Innes junior in Kearn is now known as William ( younger ) Innes therefore son of William ( elder ) Innes.
Yes, but how do you know with 100% certainty that it was the same William Innes who married Janet Cameron? There could easily have been two William Innes (younger)s amongst all the proliferation of William Inneses.
None of the Inneses are mine, incidentally, not even the family of Penuel Innes. As far as I know I am not related to any of them.
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Have a nice day. Take care.
William in montreal
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Under Subject: Re:William ( younger ) Innes is incorrect, It now should be William ( elder ) Innes.
It appears that maybe, Item 3 and 4 may apply to William ( elder ) Innes because Alexander Innes son of William ( elder ) Innes was not an Officer with the 42nd but rather a Seargeant with the Gordon Highlanders.
Did you see the RTF Report that I got from the Gordon Highlanders?? Let me know
Alexander Innes born 1808 and son of William ( younger ) Innes was not a Soldier.
William in Montreal
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Just so that everyone is up to speed with all this, these are previous threads about Innes families started by Dufftown:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799554.0 Possibly relates to the family of Alexander Innes who features in the descendancy charts that I posted earlier in this thread. Dufftown now says that this is not his family.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=811951.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=812165.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=812538.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=812773.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=812912.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813040.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813146.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813238.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813260.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813321.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813366.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813447.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813545.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813637.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813654.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813709.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813711.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814820.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814898.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814953.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=818842.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=820153.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=823689.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=824209.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825000.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825072.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=836219.0
All these relate to deciphering 17th century records of mostly Innes and Leslie baptisms and banns. There is nothing in any of them to imply any connection to Glenlivet.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=655433.0 (started by William in Montreal but using the alias Tomnamuidh instead of Dufftown)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=816999.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840026.0
These ones relate to the assorted Inneses in Glenlivet.
Other threads mentioning Glenlivet Inneses started by other RootsChatters
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=376472.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=384549.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=72075.0
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It says: HIS FATHER WAS WILLIAM MOTHER UNKNOWN, I am now saying that this William I am calling William ( elder ) Innes. Regarding his wife Margaret McDonald she used an alias McAlister.
In one of your other threads, you say that William Innes (elder)'s wife, and the mother of William Innes (younger) and Alexander Innes (soldier) was Elizabeth McDonald. There is a record of the marriage of a William Innes to an Elizabeth McDonald in 1770 and Alexander the soldier's death certificate says his mother was Elizabeth Macdonald.
So who is Margaret McDonald, where does she fit in, what is your evidence that she used the alias McAlister, and why is she relevant?
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Another new thread that may or may not be relevant.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=841060.0
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According to a tree sent to me many years ago, William Innes, husband of Penuel Innes, was the son of Alexander Innes, itinerant minister in Glenlivet. See the chart in my posting above.
I believe this to be incorrect for the following reasons:
1. William Innes, husband of Penuel Innes, gave his age as 55 in the 1841 and 70 in the 1851 census. This suggests that he was born about 1780/1781, whereas William Innes, son of the itinerant minister if Glenlivet, was baptised in 1788.
2. William Innes and Penuel Innes were married on 15 January 1807. On this date the son of Alexander Innes, itinerant minister, would have been just 19 years old. It is unusual for young men to marry as young as 19.
3. William Innes and Penuel Innes named their first son John, their second son William, and only their third son Alexander.
4. The list of children of Alexander Innes, itinerant minister, in Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae, mentions his brothers John, Robert and Alexander, but not William, which may suggest that William died young.
Does anyone know of any evidence to support the idea that William Innes, husband of Penuel Innes, was the son of Alexander Innes, itinerant minister?
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This is from the Innes database which the ANESFHS has. T&C = "Innes of Toux and Coxton", Sir Thomas Innes of Learney (unpublished).
21.3.William in Easter Corries of Tomnavoulin in Glenlivet m 1807 Penuel Innes T&C 70
22.1.John b.1807 liv 1854 T&C 70
22.2.William in Easterton of Glenlivet 1808-1880 m 1846 Helen Grant T&C 70; OPR
Inveravon
23.1.George in Easterton in Corries of Glenlivet 1846-1918 burgess Kirkmichael m M.S.
daughter of Burness T&C 70
24.1.Penual Mary "Elma" m Dr. Chitty, London T&C 71
24.2.Margaret teacher, Aberdeen T&C 71
23.2.William 1848-1860 T&C 70
23.1.Elspeth b.1852 T&C 70
23.2.Penuel b.1854 m ? Rose T&C 70
23.1.Alexander (illegitimate by Sophia Middleton) b.1837 T&C 70; OPR Inveravon
23.2.John (illegitimate by Jane Bremner) T&C 70; OPR Inveravon
24.1.Margaret (natural daughter) m William MacDonald farm servant T&C 70
23.3.Jane (by Anne Nicolson) b.1838 T&C 70; OPR Inveravon
23.4.William (by Margaret Burgess) b.1839 T&C 70; OPR Inveravon
22.3.Alexander b.1809 T&C 70
22.1.Isobel b.1812 m ? Richardson in Balliemulloch? T&C 70
22.4.John (illegitimate) b 1800 legitimated by parents subsequent marriage T&C 70
The Fasti just says Alexander Innes (1735-1819), minister of Glenlivet, married and had issue, without giving details. I will look at the Innes database again.
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Another bit from the database:
18.3.Alexander in Corries of Tomnavoulin, Glenlivet ca 1650-post 1672
19.1.Andrew in Corries of Tomnavoulin (ca 1700, 1720-) m Helen Brown
20.1.John
20.2.William in Kearn by Tomnavoulin (ca 1730,1750) m Penuel Grant
21.1.William younger in Kearn, after in Sluggan (b ca 1760) m 1806 Janet Grant
21.2.David in Kearn m Anne Innes
21.3.Alexander in Kearn m Elizabeth Stewart
21.4.James in Muir of Croftbain m Barbara ?
21.1.Christine by George Innes (shoemaker in Aberlour)
21.2.Penuel m William Innes in Easter Corries
21.5.William (natural) b.1780 shoemaker in Rathven? (see below)
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Another bit.
19.1.Andrew in Corries of Tomnavoulin (ca 1700,1720-) m Helen Brown T&C 61
20.1.John (see below)
20.2.William in Kearn by Tomnavoulin (ca 1730,1750) m (presumed) Penuel Grant T&C 61
21.1.William younger in Kearn, after in Sluggan (b ca 1760) m (1) 1807 Margaret Grant
T&C 61; OPR Inveravon
22.1.Alexander b.1808 T&C 61; OPR Inveravon
22.1.Christian m 1821 Charles Stuart T&C 61; OPR Inveravon
21.1 William m (2)1814 Janet Cameron T&C 61
22.1.John b 1820 by Anne Grant T&C 61
23.1.William b.1850 (illegitimate) T&C 61
22.2.William 1822-1900 sometime in Craighead of Kearn m (1) Margaret Grant T&C 62
23.1.Mary b.1851 m Alexander Mitchell grieve at Aberlour Home farm T&C 62
23.2.Jessie housekeeper to Sir Gordon Cunard at Hastings T&C 62
23.3.Margaret b 1851 dsp age 21 T&C 62; OPR Inveravon
22.3 William mason at Glenlivet m (2) 1859 Margaret Shaw, T&C 62
23.1.Donald b.1864 m twice dsp Melbourne, Australia T&C 62
23.2.William of Tomnamuidh, Dufftown, manager distilliery b.1866 m (1)1893
Margaret Foster) T&C 62
24.1.Edwin b 1907 manager McDonalds Tobacco factory, Montreal, Canada m Lisa
Brunel T&C 62
24.1.Mary Margaret Shaw m John Steel, Inverness T&C 62
23.3.John carpenter Croftbain b 1868 m Helen Stephen T&C 62
24.1.John b.1868 resided Detroit m Marjorie ? T&C 62
I think all this would have to be a starting point, rather than the final word.
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Thanks, GR2.
That all looks a bit confusing, but the very first line is the one I am querying.
It also gives as the mother-in-law of Margaret Grant one Penuel Grant, not Elizabeth (or Margaret!) McDonald, and it suggests that William Innes in Kearn and later in Sluggan, was married three times: first to Janet Grant in 1806, then to Margaret Grant in 1807, and then to Janet Cameron in 1814; and it gives his DoB as c 1760, which is at odds with his consistently stated age in the censuses in 1841 (60), 1851 (73) and 1861 (83).
The death certificate of Alexander Innes, soldier, husband of Elizabeth Stuart, whom Dufftown believes to be the brother of William Innes younger in Kearn, says that his mother was Elizabeth McDonald, not Penuel Grant.
If Christian Innes, who married Charles Stuart in Kirkmichael in 1821, was the daughter of William Innes and Margaret Grant, she can hardly have been a younger sister of Alexander Innes who was baptised in 1808. He was baptised on 10 January 1808. Let us suppose that he was born on 1 January 1808. Then his mother could hardly have had another child before say 1 December 1808. Such a child would then have been just 12 years and 6 months old when Charles Stuart married Christian Innes, and just 13 years old when Ann, daughter of Charles Stuart and Christian Innes was born. If there was anything like the normal 2-year gap between Alexander and Christian, Christian would not have been old enough to marry legally in 1821 at all. So she must have been a daughter of a different William Innes, not of the one who married Margaret Grant.
Also, there is in the 1841 census a Christian Stuart, aged 55, with Ann Stuart, 15, in Tomintoul. If this is Christian Innes, she was born in 1781/1786. More likely to be a sister than a daughter of William Innes in Kearn and later Sluggan.
The Fasti just says Alexander Innes (1735-1819), minister of Glenlivet, married and had issue, without giving details. I will look at the Innes database again.
Yes, that is what the article in Vol 6, p 342, says. However there is another article in Vol 8, p 613, that lists his issue as "John Alexander Robert, Lieut 48th Regiment".
John died on 26 April 1870 in Newton, Inveravon; Alexander died 13 May 1875 in Shenval, Inveravon; and Robert (Lieutenant, 48th Regiment of Foot) died on 22 January 1877 in Milford Cottage, Aberlour. All three death certificates name their father as Alexander Innes, minister, and their mother as Elizabeth Innes.
Although I hesitate to question one as illustrious as Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, it does look as if there is some reason to doubt at least some of it?
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Although I hesitate to question one as illustrious as Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, it does look as if there is some reason to doubt at least some of it?
The more illustrious, the more the need to question and doubt.
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The more illustrious, the more the need to question and doubt.
Aye, well, having gone through it once I think there is ample justification for questioning it. There are some very definite mismatches between those extracts and the information recorded in the OPRs and statutory registers.
I'm going to have at least one more look through it and then post the results for everyone else to have a look at.
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Christiana Innes and James Innes younger in Glenrinnes had an affaire and their son George Innes was born on the 25 Jan.1810
The extract for George Innes born on the 25 Jan.1810 states that he was an illigitimate child and the witinesses were David and William Innes in Kearn.
Let me know if you want to continue Rosinesh.
I have more information to supply.
William in Montreal
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As you see in this extract LAWFULL as compared to NATURAL does tell you that the birth of George Innes was out of Wedlock.
That means that George Innes born 25 Jan.1810 may be shown in two ( 2 ) Families.
a) The family of Christina Innes because this confirms that she was the biological mother of George Innes
b) The family of James Innes since he is the biological father.
William in Montreal
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Christina Innes married on the 17 May 1821 Charles Stuart. In this marriage only 1 female child was born. Kirkmichael and Inveravon
I believe this is RC marriage.
William in Montreal
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Christiana Innes and James Innes younger in Glenrinnes had an affaire and their son George Innes was born on the 25 Jan.1810
The extract for George Innes born on the 25 Jan.1810 states that he was an illigitimate child and the witinesses were David and William Innes in Kearn.
Let me know if you want to continue Rosinesh.
I have more information to supply.
My only interest was the questions I'd asked which, if you'd taken the time to answer, may have helped you not me?
There have been several issues raised by Forfarian which you've failed to both acknowledge or answer for whatever reason.
From what I can see, Forfarian has gone a long way out of her way to help you in several ways & a long way from her home...
'going to the 'Heritage Centre in Elgin and transcribed the baptisms in the Roman Catholic parish registers from the microfilms there (this being before the RC records were added to Scotland's People), trekked up various hills to photograph various gravestones and ruins including the RC cemetery at Buiternach, Craighead and Mains of Quirn/Cairn/Kearn'
She has also gone over others' work after finding conflicting evidence, to rectify it by using primary sources i.e. not someone's writing in a book which was obviously not verified, in order to help you but I've neither seen an acknowledgement or a thanks to Forfarian on this thread!?
It seems to me you are completely ignoring the facts laid out by Forfarian which don't match what you continually want to believe.
Annie
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I have more information to supply.
Good. Please supply it.
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I agree that Farfarian has done all this work and was a great help in trying to find my family. As she said its been 15 years since and have moved on to MY DIRECT LINKS TO MY FAMILY.
I have now changed William ( younger ) Innes to William ( Junior ) Innes. I thought that we had moved past this.
If I have insulted Ann with an e SORRY.
I have now been working on the Family of William ( elder ) Innes now changed to William ( Senior ) Innes who married Elizabeth McDonald.
So far we found Alexander Innes, Christina Innes, William ( Junior ) Innes. My point of view these are confirmed links. I have two more links.
If this is not sufficient I don't know what you want
William
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What I want is to be helpful. None of your Innes forebears are related to me and I have no other motive.
If I (or anyone else) should ask a question, it's not to 'help me/us', or for idle curiosity, but to try to clarify some point of other to help YOU get the right answers.
I would point out that the baptisms in the 16-year-old e-mail which I scanned and posted here are your direct relatives, so frankly you have not moved on all that far in 16 years.
If the chart posted by GR2 is correct (a very big if!), then the family of William Innes and Penuel Innes is also related to you. I only looked at them originally because you said they were yours, and that is the only reason why I had the charts I posted earlier in this thread.
You did not offend me (until you used the expression 'Ann with an e', but let that pass). What is far worse, however, is that you disappointed me by your failure to acknowledge or react to so much of the information, and photographs, that I have sent you both privately and on this and other forums over the last 16 years or so.
Now, if we can stop trading insults and get back to the matter in hand, why don't you look back in this thread and answer, if you can, the questions posed by me, and Rosinish, and others?
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1) William and Penuel are indirect links to my family
2) William ( younger ) Innes is my direct links to my IMMEDIATE FAMILY.
3) William ( younger ) Innes is now William ( Junior ) Innes
4) William ( Junior ) Innes married twice a) Margaret Grant and Janet Cameron.
Therefore Item 2,3 and 4 are my DIRECT LINKS to my family
You mentioned that you wanted to discuss the family of William ( Junior ) Innes and Janet Cameron. If you wish we can do that at a later date not now. After we are finished with the links to William ( Senior ) Innes
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I have had a look at the charts that GR2 sent, and annotated them. I'm afraid that they do contain enough actual errors (by which I mean statements that are at variance with primary records) to make me regard the whole document as unreliable.
I couldn't make any sense of the numbering system except that I think people with the same numbers are probably supposed to be siblings. I sorted them so that people with the same numbers are grouped together.
Reactions, anyone?
18.3.Alexander in Corries of Tomnavoulin, Glenlivet ca 1650-post 1672
19.1.Andrew in Corries of Tomnavoulin (ca 1700, 1720-) m Helen Brown
19.1.Andrew in Corries of Tomnavoulin (ca 1700,1720-) m Helen Brown T&C 61 Marriage not in OPR or RC records
20.1.John
20.1.John (see below)
20.2.William in Kearn by Tomnavoulin (ca 1730,1750) m Penuel Grant
20.2.William in Kearn by Tomnavoulin (ca 1730,1750) m (presumed) Penuel Grant T&C 61 Marriage not in OPR or RC records
21.1.William younger in Kearn, after in Sluggan (b ca 1760) m 1806 Janet Grant Marriage not in OPR or RC records
21.1.William younger in Kearn, after in Sluggan (b ca 1760 1777/8 ) m (1) 1807 Margaret Grant T&C 61; OPR Inveravon
21.1 William m (2) 1814 Janet Cameron T&C 61
21.1.Christine by George Innes (shoemaker in Aberlour) Is this George, natural son of James Innes yr in Achmore and Christiana Innes in Kearn, b 1810? If so, is this Christiana the future wife of Charles Stuart?
21.2.David in Kearn m Anne Innes Marriage not in OPR or RC records. But William son of David and Anne Inneses in Kearn was baptised 5 April 1807
21.2.Penuel born 1779/80 died 1864 parents John Innes and Isabella MacBain m William Innes in Easter Corries
21.3.Alexander in Kearn b 1773/1774 died 1861, mother Elizabeth McDonald m Elizabeth Stewart in 1818
21.3.William in Easter Corries of Tomnavoulin in Glenlivet m 1807 Penuel Innes T&C 70 Census suggests this William was b 1780/1781. He was married the same year as William Innes yr in Kearn married Margaret Grant so they are contemporaries, not brothers (unless William Innes elder named two children William in quick succession).
21.4.James b1776/1777 d 1839 in Muir of Croftbain m Barbara ? Barbara Stewart
21.5.William (natural) b.1780 shoemaker in Rathven? (see below)
22.1.John b.1807 liv 1854 T&C 70 Baptism not in OPR or RC records
22.1.Alexander b.1808 T&C 61; OPR Inveravon
22.1.Christian m 1821 Charles Stuart T&C 61; OPR Inveravon probably sister not daughter of William younger in Kearn
22.1.John b 1820 by Anne Grant T&C 61 John b 1820 was the lawful son of William Innes and Janet Cameron. There were 2 John Inneses with mother Ann* Grant, one in 1762 and one in 1851 – see OPRs
22.1.Isobel b.1812 m ? 1834 William Richardson in Balliemulloch and d 1897 T&C 70
22.2.William 1822-1900 sometime in Craighead of Kearn m (1) Margaret Grant T&C 62
22.2.William in Easterton of Glenlivet 1808-1880 m 1846 Helen Grant T&C 70; OPR
Inveravon
22.3 William mason at Glenlivet m (2) 1859 30 Sep 1860 Margaret Shaw, T&C 62
22.3.Alexander b.1809 T&C 70
22.4.John (illegitimate) b 1800 legitimated by parents subsequent marriage T&C 70 had an illegitimate daughter Isabella 1845/6 by Elspet Stuart
23.1.William b.1850 (illegitimate) T&C 61 Is this the one who is listed as nephew in 1851 and grandson in 1861 of Alexander Innes, soldier?
23.1.Mary OPR names her as Margaret b.1851 m Alexander Mitchell grieve at Aberlour Home farm T&C 62
23.1.Donald b.1864 m twice dsp Melbourne, Australia T&C 62
23.1.George in Easterton in Corries of Glenlivet 1846-1918 burgess Kirkmichael m 1900 M.S.
daughter of Burness Margaret Ann Burness T&C 70
23.1.Elspeth b.1852 1851 T&C 70
23.1.Alexander (illegitimate by Sophia Middleton) b.1837 T&C 70; OPR Inveravon
23.2.Jessie housekeeper to Sir Gordon Cunard at Hastings T&C 62
23.2.William of Tomnamuidh, Dufftown, manager Glendullan distilliery b.1866 m (1)1893
Margaret Foster Maggie Kellas) T&C 62
23.2.William 1848-1860 T&C 70
23.2.Penuel b.1854 m ? Andrew Rose and d 1938 in Dufftown T&C 70
23.2.John (illegitimate by Jane Bremner) T&C 70; OPR Inveravon
23.3.Margaret b 1851 dsp age 21 T&C 62; OPR Inveravon
23.3.John carpenter Croftbain b 1868 1 May 1870 m Helen Stephen T&C 62
23.3.Jane (by Anne Nicolson) b.1838 T&C 70; OPR Inveravon
23.4.William (by Margaret Burgess) b.1839 T&C 70; OPR Inveravon
24.1.Edwin b 1907 manager McDonalds Tobacco factory, Montreal, Canada m Lisa
Brunel T&C 62
24.1.Mary Margaret Shaw m John Steel, Inverness T&C 62
24.1.John b.1868 resided Detroit m Marjorie ? T&C 62
24.1.Penual Mary "Elma" b 1901 m Dr. Chitty, London T&C 71
24.1.Margaret (natural daughter) m William MacDonald farm servant T&C 70
24.2.Margaret Helen, b 1909 teacher, Aberdeen T&C 71
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2) William ( younger ) Innes is my direct links to my IMMEDIATE FAMILY.
3) William ( younger ) Innes is now William ( Junior ) Innes
4) William ( Junior ) Innes married twice a) Margaret Grant and Janet Cameron.
You keep repeating these statements, but you have not produced any EVIDENCE to support them, in spite of being asked several times.
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23.1.William b.1850 (illegitimate) T&C 61 Is this the one who is listed as nephew in 1851 and grandson in 1861 of Alexander Innes, soldier?
I think this is the William Innes baptised 8-3-1850 to John Innes and Ann Grant. Probably illegitimate; certainly no record of the parents' marriage and no other children born to them. The original meaning of nephew was grandson, and you do still see it used that way in the middle of the 19th century, so the William in the 1851 and 1861 censuses are the same person.
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Based on your new list I agree that information on the list that many of us got from the Aberdeen people leeaves alot to be true.
Why was the wedding of William Innes and Elizabeth McDonald not shown in their list??
In their list I found in the wedding section of this list the wedding of William Innes and Elizabeth McDonald who I now show as William ( Senior ) Innes and Elizabeth McDonald
I will now go to your list and answer your questions.
Today or tomorrow.
That's the Anne I know
William in Montreal
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Lets start on your list.
Item 21.1 William ( younger ) Innes is now William ( Junior ) Innes in Kearn after Sluggan
a) married Margaret Grant 1807
b) married Janet Cameron 1814
Christine by George Innes , Shoemaker in Aberlour. This is true
William in Montreal
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The Innes database held by the ANESFHS has the following origin:
"This ancestral database was developed from the genealogical files of the late Thomas Lorne Innes of Mississauga, Ontario, Canada. They were made available courtesy of his wife and family. The information represents over twenty years of research into the genealogy of Scottish families that bear the name of Innes, and required numerous extended stays in Scotland to access original material in various archives there."
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Based on your new list I agree that information on the list that many of us got from the Aberdeen people leeaves alot to be true.
Why was the wedding of William Innes and Elizabeth McDonald not shown in their list??
Because it looks as if they think that he married Penuel Grant, not Elizabeth McDonald.
In their list I found in the wedding section of this list the wedding of William Innes and Elizabeth McDonald who I now show as William ( Senior ) Innes and Elizabeth McDonald
Yes, that marriage is in the OPR. In 1770, not 1740.
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Lets start on your list.
Item 21.1 William ( younger ) Innes is now William ( Junior ) Innes in Kearn after Sluggan
a) married Margaret Grant 1807
b) married Janet Cameron 1814
I have still to see independent EVIDENCE that this was the same William Innes. I am quite happy to believe it, but I have not seen anything to prove it.
Christine by George Innes , Shoemaker in Aberlour. This is true
Is it? What EVIDENCE is there?
In the Aberdeen list Christine appears to be listed among the children of William Innes (younger); I think she is more likely to be a sister of William (younger) for the reasons I stated above. Who is this George and when and where does he fit in, and if he fathered a Christine, when, and who was the mother?
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Would it be better for me to send directly in RTF format to your private email or just post the RTF here
William in Montreal
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Post it here. The more eyes and brains who look at it, the better.
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In their list I found in the wedding section of this list the wedding of William Innes and Elizabeth McDonald who I now show as William ( Senior ) Innes and Elizabeth McDonald
Yes, that marriage is in the OPR. In 1770, not 1740.
Deja vu? https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840026.0
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High. This is in RTF format.
This Alexander was not a soldier therefore the Witness Alexander Innes Soldier must be the brother to William ( Junior ) Innes.
William in Montreal
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Alexander was not a soldier therefore the Witness Alexander Innes Soldier must be the brother to William ( Junior ) Innes.
Why must he be a brother? The record does not say that he was. I agree that it is very likely, but there is NO PROOF. He could have been a cousin, or a more distant relative, or even unrelated.
It's good to have hypotheses and theories to work on, but if you can't actually prove that William (younger) and Alexander (soldier) were brothers your whole tree will be based on an assumption that may not be correct.
BTW the original record says Alexander lawful son, not loving son, of William Innes.
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Dufftown,
You are very lucky to have the knowledge, expertise & thoroughness of Forfarian helping you!
I agree fully on us having theories & assumptions in our trees as I'm sure we all do but without proof it will remain as such & I don't see any benefit in professing things are true where there's no evidence to back it up.
It is not for the 1st time I've mentioned to people, just because you find info. in a 'published' book or by some 'known' person, doesn't make it true.
I've seen many errors in published data by doing my own research but I've also been challenged on info. I corrected & gave to someone (to help them) who was using data from a 'published' book & was more or less told a few times I was wrong although not in so many words.
That person kept reminding me if you like (in a tone)..."the info. I have is..."
I then produced the docs to prove it, much to my annoyance as the person themself hadn't spent £7.50 on SP for the info. before questioning my knowledge of facts.
The tone changed after that I can assure you ;)
Annie
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I am attaching, an attachment in RTF format of Alexander Innes ( Soldier ) son of William ( Senior ) Innes. Please read carefully as it confirms who Alexander was.
William in Montreal
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I am attaching, an attachment in RTF format of Alexander Innes ( Soldier ) son of William ( Senior ) Innes. Please read carefully as it confirms who Alexander was.
There was never any doubt who he was: from his death certificate and the 1851 census he was born about 1773/1774, son of William Innes and Elizabeth McDonald, who were married in 1770.
However this document does not provide any EVIDENCE or PROOF that Alexander was the brother of William Innes younger.
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I have looked at the censuses for William and for Alexander, and there are no clues there (e.g. a cousin, niece or other person who could link the families. Alexander's "nephew" in 1851 is a grandson (nephew in it's old sense, and confirmed by the 1861 census, where the "nephew" is designated a grandson).
It might be useful if you could look at your transcriptions of the baptisms of all the children of both William and Alexander and list them with the designation of the father and the names and designations of the witnesses. That way we could see if anything stands out.
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Also, re the Alexander Innes in the 1794 muster roll of the Gordon Highlanders, the list can be seen on line, as it was published in "Territorial Soldiering in the North-East of Scotland during 1759 - 1814", by John Malcolm Bulloch, published in 1914.
The roll contains two Innesses from Inveravon:
Alexander, 18, 5' 3 1/2", Inveravon, labourer, enlisted 10-6-1794
John, 20, 5' 7 1/2", Inveravon, labourer, enlisted 11-3-1794
There is also an Innes from Glenlivet in the Northern Fencibles, which lasted from 1793 - 1799:
Alexander Innes, 25, 5' 10", Glenlivet, enlisted at Gordon Castle 20-3-1793
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Here is my list about Christina Innes and James Innes. She was a daughter of William ( Senior ) Innes and a sister Alexander Innes. It's in RTF format.
I have two more names as children of William ( Senior ) Innes: Janet Innes and James Innes in Muir Glenlivet before going to the family of William ( Junior ) Innes.
William in Montreal
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Here is my list about Christina Innes and James Innes. She was a daughter of William ( Senior ) Innes and a sister Alexander Innes. It's in RTF format.
I have two more names as children of William ( Senior ) Innes: Janet Innes and James Innes in Muir Glenlivet before going to the family of William ( Junior ) Innes.
Words almost fail me.
Your print-out has Issobell Alexander, born 1690, as the daughter of George Innes and Ann Grant who were married in 1835.
A daughter, with a different surname, born 145 years before her parents' marriage? What is your EVIDENCE for that?
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21.3 Alexander in Kearn b1773/4 Mother Elizabeth McDonald.
21.4 James b1776/77 in Muir, Glenlivet, Banff married Barbara Stewart and had a previous marriage.
22.2 William 1822-1900 lived all his life at Craighead Farm. Married 2 Times a)Margaret Grant
b) Margaret Shaw. He was the son of William ( Junior ) Innes and Janet Cameron.
23.2 William of Tomnamuidh, my grandfather who I met 1n 1947. He was the son of William
1822-1900 and Margaret Shaw.
23.3 John Innes, carpenter, was a brother of to 23.2 William of Tomnamuidh.
In my view these are true.
William in Montreal
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Forfarian that part is still to be proven. Start with William ( Senior ) Innes
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21.3 Alexander in Kearn b1773/4 Mother Elizabeth McDonald.
Yes, the primary sources support this.
21.4 James b 1776/77 in Muir, Glenlivet, Banff married Barbara Stewart and had a previous marriage.
Yes, the primary source says that James Innes, husband of Barbara Stewart, died in 1839 aged 62, according to a gravestone in Kirkmichael kirkyard. Barbara was in Muir in 1841, and in Tomintoul in 1851. What EVIDENCE do you have for his parentage and place of birth?
22.2 William 1822-1900 lived all his life at Craighead Farm. Married 2 Times
a)Margaret Grant
b) Margaret Shaw. He was the son of William ( Junior ) Innes and Janet Cameron.
23.2 William of Tomnamuidh, my grandfather who I met 1n 1947. He was the son of William
1822-1900 and Margaret Shaw.
23.3 John Innes, carpenter, was a brother of to 23.2 William of Tomnamuidh.[/quote]These facts are all supported by primary records.
In my view these are true.
In the view of some people the Earth is flat. The fact that people believe something does not make it true if there is no EVIDENCE to support it.
Even if all the facts individually are true, what EVIDENCE do you have for all the links you postulate in your latest .rtf document?
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Forfarian that part is still to be proven.
Most of the earlier links are still unproven.
So far there is evidence that William Innes younger, who married Margaret Grant, was the son of William Innes elder.
There is, so far, no EVIDENCE to prove
- that William Innes younger was the son of Elizabeth McDonald
- that Willliam Innes was the widower of Margaret Grant when he married Janet Cameron.
As I have said, I think both these statements are likely to be true, but without EVIDENCE they remain unproven, and no amount of repeating them will make them true.
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NO COMMENT.
Except to say: You already have what you need to confirm YES or No.
Merry Christmas everyone.
Hope you find what we are all looking for.
Bye and Good Hunting.
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You are expecting help, but when a gross error is pointed out to you - someone born 145 years before her parents' marriage - you go off in a huff and bury your head in the sand.
I have indeed enough information to say a resounding NO.
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More errors in the 'Christiana and James' .rtf.
7. George Innes and Ann Grant did not have a daughter named Issobell or Isabella or similar. They did have a daughter Sarah, born and baptised in 1841. According to the family gravestone in Aberlour (Ab691) Sarah died in 1903.
30. The James Innes who married Margaret Stephen in Botriphnie cannot also be the one who married Barbara Stewart because Margaret Stephen’s youngest child was born on 19 July 1805, which is after the marriage of James Innes and Barbara Stewart on 7 October 1804, and just 2½ months before the birth of Barbara Stewart’s first child.
The 1841 census says that Barbara Stewart or Innes was born in Banffshire, not Aberdeenshire, and the 1851 census says that Barbara Stewart, and her older sister Jane with whom she was living, were born in Kirkmichael, not Glenbuckat. They are probably the daughters of James Stuart and Margaret Grant - Jean baptised 1768 and Barbara 1782 in Kirkmichael.
66. Alexander M(a)cPherson, husband of Margaret Innes (1818-1841) was not the son of William M(a)cPherson and Janet Innes. In the 1841 census, Margaret's widower is a blacksmith, aged 28, living at Slateford with William, aged 4. In the same census Alexander M(a)cPherson, son of William M(a)cPherson and Janet Innes, is with his parents at Quirn. He is also in every subsequent census, unmarried, at Mains, Inveravon, until 1871, and in 1881 he is a lodger nearby at Lynebeg in the household of Robert Grant and Isabella McGowan and family. (Isabella was probably the daughter of James McGowan and Jane McPherson. She, her brother James and sister Elizabeth were in the household of William McPherson, Janet Innes and Alexander McPherson in the 1841 census.) Alexander died in the Morayshire Combination Poorhouse in 1885, still unmarried, described as a farmer.
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Although I hesitate to question one as illustrious as Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, it does look as if there is some reason to doubt at least some of it?
Do question. Sir Thomas Innes interviewed a relation in 1949 and pretty much went sideways with my own branch.
The line itself is theoretically of a "bastard" grandson of the second marriage of John 5th of Edingight but there are numerous "probably", "likely" and other vague mentions. DNA still holds the Edingight connection a possibility but it needs refining (more testers).
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