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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: harrygeorge1 on Tuesday 24 November 20 18:38 GMT (UK)
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I have the 2 sons of John William Walter Smith Fairlie and Grace Johanna (maiden name unknown).
Alexander Murdock McGreger Fairlie(1915–1973)
7 Jan 1915 • Hirushipur, Lahore, Punjab, India
Hector Rex McGreger Fairlie(1911–1976)
11 Dec 1911 India.
I have found them all travelling back to England on 22nd June 1920. I seem to be unable to locate John and Grace leaving the UK. I am unsure if India is where they married. Please could you help me locate a marriage for John and Grace and even better a birth place.
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Have you checked freebmd or ScotlandsPeople for a birth for John or marriage?
Have you found John & Grace on the 1939 register or deaths for them?
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He sounds Scottish -- there is actually a death, which you probably know about - of a John William Walter Smith Fairlie in 1956 in Victoria, Australia.
Father's name shown as John Fairlie and mother's maiden name McKenzie.
This is on the Ancestry Victoria death indexes, so gives no more details - such as age.
However it might be possible to find a marriage for his parents and follow him through that way.
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The 1956 death is 76
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/5fa98aa20ae78424125d1d49/results?q=efamily
There is an earlier marriage for him in Australia too. 1946 to
Dorothy Winifred Reid
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You omitted info from the incoming passenger record
He was a magistrate aged 39 and Grace was 37
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Have you checked freebmd or ScotlandsPeople for a birth for John or marriage?
Have you found John & Grace on the 1939 register or deaths for them?
I haven't found them on the 1939 register, but John dies in Australia 1956.
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You omitted info from the incoming passenger record
He was a magistrate aged 39 and Grace was 37
apologies
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On Hectors baptism The mother is Johanna Grace
In the margin is 29 12 89
And 21/1/60
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The 1956 death is 76
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/5fa98aa20ae78424125d1d49/results?q=efamily
There is an earlier marriage for him in Australia too. 1946 to
Dorothy Winifred Reid
Thank you, that answers my question on another thread, Dorothy must have been much younger than John, she didn't die until 2003.
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Hector & wife Margaret Elizabeth are on the 1939 Electoral register for Wandsworth
He married Margaret E Llewellyn 1934 Wandsworth
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Alexander Murdoch Fairlie & Grace Fairlie on on 1939 ER for Putney
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On Hectors baptism The mother is Johanna Grace
In the margin is 29 12 89
And 21/1/60
Her name seems to change on different documents, the family knew her as Grace Johanna.
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Australian marriage cert would have a lot of detail. You can pay and download the PDF
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Australian marriage cert would have a lot of detail. You can pay and download the PDF
Thank you.
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In 1936 household in Oaks Avenue, Sutton & Cheam has Grace as Grace McGregor-Farlie.
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possible death reg jan qtr 1946 in Chelsea for Joanna G Fairlie age 68
From probate index, Joanna Grace of 5 Park Mansions, Putney, wife of John Fairlie, died 24 March at St Stephen's Hospital Chelsea, probate to John Fairlie and Norman Handley Smith (electrical engineer).
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Yes mckha -- I noticed the electoral entry - she's there with Hector Rex McGregor Fairlie in 1938 also.
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possible death reg jan qtr 1946 in Chelsea for Joanna G Fairlie age 68
From probate index, Joanna Grace of 5 Park Mansions, Putney, wife of John Fairlie, died 24 March at St Stephen's Hospital Chelsea, probate to John Fairlie and Norman Handley Smith (electrical engineer).
Thank you. I will have to check when John left the UK to go to Australia. He married again in 1946.
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I wonder if they had separated - as she is not with her husband in the late 1930s.
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Family in Australia
https://billiongraves.com/grave/John-William-Walter-Smith-Fairlie/2617491
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Family in Australia
https://billiongraves.com/grave/John-William-Walter-Smith-Fairlie/2617491
Looks like there are a few children the family didn't know about. Very interesting. Thank you.
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Great find Mckha!
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I think the Norman Handley Smith is Joanna Grace's nephew.
1911 census with father Hector Angus Smith born Calcutta
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4Z-PWM
Hector was born 17 Aug 1880 and baptised 17 Sept in Calcutta, son James Henry & Catherine Ann
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG4Q-5JY
and a daughter Johanna Grace born 2 Jan 1878 and baptised 14 Jan at Ferozepore, father James Henry conductor Ordnance Department
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGDQ-3G6
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I think the Norman Handley Smith is Joanna Grace's nephew.
1911 census with father Hector Angus Smith born Calcutta
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4Z-PWM
Hector was born 17 Aug 1880 and baptised 17 Sept in Calcutta, son James Henry & Catherine Ann
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG4Q-5JY
and a daughter Johanna Grace born 2 Jan 1878 and baptised 14 Jan at Ferozepore, father James Henry conductor Ordnance Department
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGDQ-3G6
The surname Smith tallies with one of Johanna Grace's sisters Katie Thorburn Smith.
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more siblings
Henrietta Frances 1870
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXB-KQX
James Norman 1872
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGDS-DMB
Henry Frederick 1874
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGD3-6ZN
Kate Minnie 1882
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG8G-CL9
Winifred Margaret 1885
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG64-3RH
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Harrygeorge -- you could obtain a copy of the probate found by Osprey -- it will only cost £1.50 and you can order on line. You will receive an email when it's ready to view.
There MAY just be another clue in it.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar
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more siblings
Henrietta Frances 1870
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXB-KQX
James Norman 1872
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGDS-DMB
Henry Frederick 1874
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGD3-6ZN
Kate Minnie 1882
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG8G-CL9
Winifred Margaret 1885
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG64-3RH
Thank you, lots of new names. I have also been told there was a sister called Fanny
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Harrygeorge -- you could obtain a copy of the probate found by Osprey -- it will only cost £1.50 and you can order on line. You will receive an email when it's ready to view.
There MAY just be another clue in it.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar
Thank you, I will do that.
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have also been told there was a sister called Fanny
Could be Henrietta Frances
Good sleuthing Osprey.
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I appreciate all the help given to me, thank you to each and every one of you.
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Adding in case you don’t have the death and funeral notice for John William Fairlie
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19561110&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Page 21 (in small box page 11 of 32 )
FAIRLIE - On November 9, at his residence, 1105 White Horse Road, Box Hill, John William, beloved husband of Dorothy, loving father of H****, J*** and C****.
Funeral notice (same page) Spring Vale Crematorium
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Adding in case you don’t have the death and funeral notice for John William Fairlie
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19561110&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Page 21 (in small box page 11 of 32 )
FAIRLIE - On November 9, at his residence, 1105 White Horse Road, Box Hill, John William, beloved husband of Dorothy, loving father of H****, J*** and C****.
Funeral notice (same page) Spring Vale Crematorium
Thank you. x
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is this another child to the couple? Father's occupation on Hector's baptism is head Clerk Deputy Commissioners Office, and on that of Joanna Anna Grace occupation is Dy. Commrs Clerk.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG64-3RH
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is this another child to the couple? Father's occupation on Hector's baptism is head Clerk Deputy Commissioners Office, and on that of Joanna Anna Grace occupation is Dy. Commrs Clerk.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG64-3RH
It looks promising.
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https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/fairlie--colin-mackenzie/5121976/
Herald Sun 21/11/2019
FAIRLIE. — Colin MacKenzie
Passed away peacefully on Tuesday 15th November 2019 aged 69 years.
Loved son of John and Dorothy (both dec).
Loving brother of H**** and J***.
Cherished uncle of K****.
Husband to Marg (dec).
Will be Sadly Missed
Loved by All
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I just need to find John William Walter Smith Fairlie's birth reg now.
Parents John Fairlie and Grace Mc Kenzie.
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https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/fairlie--colin-mackenzie/5121976/
Herald Sun 21/11/2019
FAIRLIE. — Colin MacKenzie
Passed away peacefully on Tuesday 15th November 2019 aged 69 years.
Loved son of John and Dorothy (both dec).
Loving brother of H**** and J***.
Cherished uncle of K****.
Husband to Marg (dec).
Will be Sadly Missed
These are family members we didn't know about. A bit of a surprise but a nice one.
Loved by All
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Have you got the 1946 marriage yet? I think that should give his place of birth.
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PROV Wills and probates:
John W W FAIRLIE Date of grant: 06 Dec 1957; Date of death: 11 Nov 1956; Occupation: Solicitor; Residence: S Box Hill
https://prov.vic.gov.au/search_journey/select?q=series_id:(28%207591%207592%207933%2017379)%20AND%20family_name:(Fairlie)%20AND%20given_name:(John)&start_date=&end_date=&form_origin=WILL_SEARCH
Adding: Probate and Administration Files
Description: 1235928
FAIRLIE
DOROTHY WINIFRED
SURREY HILLS
PENSIONER
http://access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/component/daPublicBaseContainer?component=daViewItem&entityId=4178287749
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Do you think this fits in anywhere??
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGWJ-SHW
John
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Isn’t it great! I had just found that too.
There is a baptism with date of birth 4 March 1881 of a John William Walter Smith,
Parents John William Smith and Julia Grace Eliza Smith. Abode Ambala City
Occupation Station Master S, P & O? railwy
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it's mentioned in reply no. 32
Think this is the marriage of Johanna Grace's parents, James Henry noted as sub conductor, Annie is 16.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNZ-BZD
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It’s a different one Osprey. (I think 🤔, off to check again)
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it's mentioned in reply no. 32
Think this is the marriage of Johanna Grace's parents, James Henry noted as sub conductor, Annie is 16.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNZ-BZD
One of the names I was given by the family for James Henry's daughter was Katie Thorburn Smith. Which makes sense with this information.
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Have you got the 1946 marriage yet? I think that should give his place of birth.
Not yet.
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I wonder if this is the marriage of the parents of John William Walter SMITH.
father is an assistant Station master at Delhi
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNP-9LR
Julia Grace Matilda GIBSON not McKENZIE :-\
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Do you think this fits in anywhere??
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGWJ-SHW
John
Occupation of father for that one is Deputy Commissioner's Clerk which is the same as the baptism of Hector, except by then he is the Head Clerk
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Julia Grace Matilda SMITH age 29 years, 4 months and 13 days, Wife of Station Master S.P.D Railways buried 29 Sept 1881. Cause of Death, Consumption.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGGX-93K
6 children by my reckoning
Isabella Grace Eliza 23 June 1872
Sabina Emelia Lilian 25 Feb 1874
Lydia Florence Blanche 20 Aug 1874
Adolph William Stanley 1 Dec 1876
Joline Maud Mary Anne 24 June 1879
John William Walter born 4 Mar 1881
somewhat mixed baptisms and birth dates here, but check FamilySearch
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I wonder if this is the marriage of the parents of John William Walter SMITH.
father is an assistant Station master at Delhi
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNP-9LR
Julia Grace Matilda GIBSON not McKENZIE :-\
IF?? that is the parents of John William Walter then there are 5 siblings born between 1872-81. All 6 images including John William Walter are on FindMyPast.
Iv'e a feeling the parents came to India from the USA.
John
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an A.W.S. SMITH crossed out, with a whole group of other government employees, on a 1934 shipping list, Bombay to London
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sorry did miss the red box Mckha489
John
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where does the Fairlie come from?
Norman Thorburn looks to be from Duirinish in Invernessshire and born c.1827 and much married.
First marriage 25 Nov 1850 in Glasgow to Joan Murray.
There's a baptism in 1851 at Dum Dum of a son Daniel, he was buried 17 March 1852
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGQ3-F73
A marriage as a widower 22 Jan 1858 at Fort William, St Peter to widow Sabina Fulton
A marriage 16 Sept 1875 in Duirinish to Catherine Mackay. He's in Dundee in 1881 with 35 year old wife. Still in Dundee in 1891 this time wife is 37 year old Margaret.
::)
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No problem :)
I am really going down this rabbit hole I know, but
Julia Grace Matilda GIBSON, Birth https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG8V-BN5
Cannot see it on FindMyPast at the moment.
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It’s a different one Osprey. (I think 🤔, off to check again)
Aah, its the link that is wrong Osprey, Links to one of Johanna Grace's sisters. That is why I missed it. Sorry.
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Quote "I am really going down this rabbit hole I know", but your trying to "ferret" out the truth.
I'm off to bed.
John
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ok, think there's another marriage for Norman as the Catherine he married in 1875 died in 1879
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCN-FQ4T
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Adding in case you don’t have the death and funeral notice for John William Fairlie
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19561110&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Page 21 (in small box page 11 of 32 )
FAIRLIE - On November 9, at his residence, 1105 White Horse Road, Box Hill, John William, beloved husband of Dorothy, loving father of H****, J*** and C****.
Funeral notice (same page) Spring Vale Crematorium
Springvale Botanical Cemetery - Cremated
John William Walter FAIRLIE
Date of service: 12 November 1956
Springvale Botanical Cemetery - Cremated Remains Collection
Dorothy Winifred FAIRLIE
Date of birth: 22 February 1915
Date of death: 24 December 2003
Date of service: 2 January 2004
Service provided: Cremated
Funeral director: Le Pine - Burwood
Religion: Presbyterian
Jamjar
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ok, think there's another marriage for Norman as the Catherine he married in 1875 died in 1879
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCN-FQ4T
actual notice says Calcutta and Australian Papers please copy
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Should threads be merged
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840749.new;topicseen#new
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Norman's parents were John Thorburn & Catherine McLean and at least one of his brothers emigrated to Australia
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q29R-ZTTB
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https://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-database-search
SA birth 1915 REID, Dorothy Winifred; Father-Sampson REID; Adelaide; #955/64
Adding her parents marriage SA: 1914 REID, Sampson and Dorothy Bannister; Adelaide; #259/264
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/59640678 (page 4)
REID— FIELD.
A pretty wedding was celebrated at the Presbyterian Church, Flinders street Adelaide, on April 16, when Mr. Sampson Reid, youngest son of the late Mr. Charles Reid, of Anglo avenue, Parkside, was married to Miss Dorothy Bannister, youngest daughter of Mr. and Mrs. H. Field of McLaren street, city. The Rev. Dr. Davidson officiated,.....
Death notice for her grandmother https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/35762290
FIELD.—On October 18, at Adelaide, Miranda Lucilla, beloved widow of Henry Field, of 68 McLaren street, Adelaide, and loving mother of Eleanor (Mrs. Armstrong) and Dorothy (Mrs. Reid).
FIELD.—On October 18, at Adelaide, Miranda Lucilla Field, of 68 McLaren street, Adelaide, dearly beloved grandmother of Dorothy Winifred Fairlie.
SA marriage: 1889 FIELD, Henry and Miranda Lucilla; Adelaide; #159/862
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208533453
FIELD — HORNE. —On the 26th June, at St. Andrew's Church, Wakefield-street, by the Rev. E. Rorke, M.A., Henry Field, of Adelaide, to Miranda Lucilla (Minnie), eldest daughter of J. Horne, of Goodwood, late at Bradford, Yorkshire. Melbourne papers please copy.
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Her father is recorded as Edward, not Henry: 504/422 1892 FIELD Dorothy Bannister father Edward FIELD Adelaide
951/511 1963 REID Dorothy Bannister at Gawler
Surname: REID
Given names: DOROTHY BANNISTER
Cemetery name: Salisbury Memorial Park
Cemetery section: General B Section
Plot: 237
Date of burial: 22-1-1963
Age: 70
Funeral director: T Brady - Not in Business
Sampson’s father: 366/310 1912 REID Charles at Adelaide
Sampson’s mother: 595/4103 1937 REID Susannah at Adelaide
Sampson’s father’s death notice, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5354561
Funeral notice, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5354546
Sampson’s mother’s death notice, page 26, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article92491550
Funeral notice, 4th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article30780682
West Terrace Cemetery - Plan 3, Row 4, Site Number 9
REID Myrtle 14 29-11-1986
REID Marion 0 18-11-1888
REID Esther 0 17-7-1893
REID Charles 65 26-6-1912
REID Susannah 87 28-9-1937
MASSETT Ruby 68 22-2-1963 (daughter)
There is a death notice for Sampson, but I can’t see his burial at the same cemetery as his wife:
REID Sampson 1973
The son:
65A/300 1920 REID Sampson Henry father Sampson REID Norwood
Surname: REID
Given names: SAMPSON HENRY
Cemetery name: Salisbury Memorial Park
Cemetery section: Rose Garden - B
Date of burial: Friday, 5 June 2015
Age: 94
Funeral director: Mattiske Funerals - Salisbury Chapel
Comments: Ashes - 2nd Interment
Possible wife:
Surname: REID
Given names: EVA EDITH
Cemetery name: Salisbury Memorial Park
Cemetery section: Rose Garden - B
Plot: 44A
Date of burial: 16-12-2010
Age: 84
Funeral director: Mattiske Funerals - Salisbury Chapel
Comments: Ashes - 1st Interment
A photo of Sampson’s brother, Jasper: https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/69773
He and wife Ada are buried at West Terrace.
Sister of Sampson:
Centennial Park Cemetery - Acacia B, Path BI, Grave 191
EDEN, John Joseph 11 Jun 1956
EDEN, Lydia 3 Sep 1956
Brother of Sampson, and his wife, died WA:
2022 1937 REID Herbert S Perth
Death notice, page 26, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article92477735
2512 1943 REID Gertrude Perth
Death and funeral notices, 2nd and 5th columns: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article46774559
KARRAKATTA CEMETERY - ANGLICAN GA 0298
REID Herbert Samuel 61 19-11-1937
REID Gertrude 69 4-11-1943
Death of brother, SA: 916/7759 1960 REID Frank Henry Adelaide
REID Frank Henry 80 1960
Jamjar
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Not sure why this marriage was so hard to find. Possibly because Registry Office.
On FIBIS
Presidency of Marriage Unspecified
Location of Marriage Lahore
Marriage Year 1906 - 1911
Husband First Names John W.
Husband Surname Smith
Wife First Names Grace J.
Wife Surname Smith
Prefix N/11
Volume Number 11
Folio 1157
LDS Film Reference 498604
IOR Reference Z/N/11/11
Film is locked on FamilySearch
added - found it on FindMyPast as Grace J SMITH marrying herself. Have reported the error.
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of the other Smith children
Lydia Florence Blanche 20 Aug 1874 m Edward John Coventry MASTER
at Lahore on 15 April 1895. He was a widower. by License. occupation Indian Salt Revenue.
father John SMITH
Witnesses J. M. SMITH (Joline?) and F KNIGHT
20 August 1908 she remarried (as a widow) Charles Albert TODD Assistant Station Master
father John William SMITH. witnesses R. A. FAIRLIE & P McDERMOTT
Who is R. A. Fairlie?
In 1949 she Lydia arrived at Fremantle, going to Melbourne 1105 Whitehorse Road, Box Hill. So…. visiting her brother. And that links the family doesn't it? I have come out of the Rabbit Hole!
She was still alive 1952. Travelling from UK to Karachi. age 76. A Nurse. last address
8 Rossmore Road E. Ellesmere Port.
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From FIBIS
Surname FAIRLIE
Given Names Robert Andrew
Death Date 17 October 1921
added he was 88, so born abt 1833
in 'Homeward Mail from India, China and the East" 27 July 1858
: FAIRLIE - SMITH. June 2 at Agra, Mr Robert Andrew Fairlie to Miss Amelia Henrietta Smith
Amelia Henrietta FAIRLIE died 1904
So my current theory is that the Fairlies had no children and asked John to add Fairlie to his name. Off for a wine now lol.
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baptism for Amelia at Agra
Amelia Henrietta born 5 June 1834 d of John Smith Sgt Major, 28th regiment N.I. and Isabella his wife.
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There is a John Fairlie leaving Bombay and going to Sydney in 1940:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=12136589&S=11
A John W Fairley, residing in Sydney, writing to the editor, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17736934
Jamjar
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Isabella Ann Smith b 3 June 1832. Parents John Smith. Sergt Major 28th Native Infantry & Isabella his wife
John William Smith b 20 March 1842. Now resident Coolie Bazaar, Fort William. Parents John & Isabella. John is a Bullock Sergeant
Mary Ann Smith b Neemuch. 1836, Daughter of Sgt Major etc, but this time it’s regiment B of the 28th
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Fairly sure this is the marriage of John & Isabella 21 feb 1831
Isabella is a ward of the Lower Orphan School. But, there is finally McKenzie
I attach because I can’t quite decide John’s regiment,
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I think it might be an abbreviation for Quarter Master Sergeant
Lower orphan school
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/apac/other/019pzz000001619u00000000.html
https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Orphans
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Amelia Fairlie had a will. Probate granted July 1904 to Robert. Indexed and page of the register imaged on FindMyPast. But I do not know where one can get a copy of the actual will. British Library perhaps?
Hopefully someone will come on who does know.
Robert ought to have one too. At his death he was "Retired Agent, Bank of Upper India Ltd". But no luck so far.
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Wills from National Probate:
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
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Wills from National Probate:
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
I looked there. Perhaps have gone blind.
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Where did Amelia die?
Not seeing a death on FreeBMD?
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India
Added, and so did Robert
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This is what it says on FindMyPast
“ The almost 2.5 million British In India records are sourced from the original India Office Records and Private Papers held by the British Library. These records comprise the archives of the East India Company (1600-1858), the Board of Control or Board of Commissioners for the Affairs of India (1784 – 1858), the India Office (1858-1947), the Burma Office (1937-1947), and a number of related British agencies.
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Have we had this one?
Dec 25th at 14 Canning Road Allahabad Johanna Anne Grace the beloved daughter of Mr and Mrs J W W Smith of Gujrat Punjab aged 9 months
(Times of India 9 Jan 1911)
Per the baptism, (Gujrat13 March 1910) the parents were John William Walter Smith and Grace Johanna Smith.
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No, we hadn’t (I don’t think) VG
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Thank you so much for all this detective work, I am trying to get my head around it all. You are all fantastic in your knowledge and help.
Andrea.
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I wonder if this is the marriage of the parents of John William Walter SMITH.
father is an assistant Station master at Delhi
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNP-9LR
Julia Grace Matilda GIBSON not McKENZIE :-\
IF?? that is the parents of John William Walter then there are 5 siblings born between 1872-81. All 6 images including John William Walter are on FindMyPast.
Iv'e a feeling the parents came to India from the USA.
John
Julie Grace Matilda Gibson died on 28/09/1881, 6 months after John William Walter was born. Could Grace McKenzie be a 2nd wife?
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an A.W.S. SMITH crossed out, with a whole group of other government employees, on a 1934 shipping list, Bombay to London
Could this be Adolph William Stanley born 1876 son of John and Julia?
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ok, think there's another marriage for Norman as the Catherine he married in 1875 died in 1879
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCN-FQ4T
actual notice says Calcutta and Australian Papers please copy
Norman seems to like getting married if I have found the correct one.
Joan Murry 1850
Selina Birmingham 1870
Catherine McKay 1875
Cristine Mackenzie 1880
Margaret Stewart 1886
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Norman Thorburn looks to be from Duirinish in Invernessshire and born c.1827 and much married.
First marriage 25 Nov 1850 in Glasgow to Joan Murray.
There's a baptism in 1851 at Dum Dum of a son Daniel, he was buried 17 March 1852
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGQ3-F73
A marriage as a widower 22 Jan 1858 at Fort William, St Peter to widow Sabina Fulton
A marriage 16 Sept 1875 in Duirinish to Catherine Mackay. He's in Dundee in 1881 with 35 year old wife. Still in Dundee in 1891 this time wife is 37 year old Margaret.
::)
I think Sabina Fulton & Selina Birmingham may be the same person. Sabina Fulton is a widow on her marriage and her father is noted as William Birmingham
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The McKenzie link looks to be earlier as found by Mckha489
Fairly sure this is the marriage of John & Isabella 21 feb 1831
Isabella is a ward of the Lower Orphan School. But, there is finally McKenzie
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of the other Smith children
20 August 1908 she remarried (as a widow) Charles Albert TODD Assistant Station Master
father John William SMITH. witnesses R. A. FAIRLIE & P McDERMOTT
Who is R. A. Fairlie?
In 1949 she arrived at Fremantle, going to Melbourne 1105 Whitehorse Road, Box Hill. So…. visiting her brother. And that links the family doesn't it? I have come out of the Rabbit Hole!
She was still alive 1952. Travelling from UK to Karachi. age 76. A Nurse. last address
8 Rossmore Road E. Ellesmere Port.
could this be a half sister? Working on the dates she was born after Julia Grace Matilda's death.
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From FIBIS
Surname FAIRLIE
Given Names Robert Andrew
Death Date 17 October 1921
added he was 88, so born abt 1833
in 'Homeward Mail from India, China and the East" 27 July 1858
: FAIRLIE - SMITH. June 2 at Agra, Mr Robert Andrew Fairlie to Miss Amelia Henrietta Smith
Amelia Henrietta FAIRLIE died 1904
So my current theory is that the Fairlies had no children and asked John to add Fairlie to his name. Off for a wine now lol.
I am missing something, where did Robert and Amelia come from? What is the link to John? Please can you dumb it down for me x.
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Robert Andrew Fairlie's memorial inscription from FIBIS: "our dear uncle".
https://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_detail.php?id=2452761
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John William Walter Smith becomes John William Walter Fairlie Smith after birth of daughter in 1910 and before birth of Hector at the end of 1911. The Fairlie has to come from somewhere. He may have been made the heir of Robert Andrew Fairlie on condition that he added Fairlie to his name. Robert Andrew Fairlie died in 1921 and gravestone says uncle.
second marriage for John William Smith, father of John William Walter
15 May 1882 St James, Anarkullee, Lahore
John William Smith full age widower station master Umballa father John Smith
Alice Reed 16 spinster father GWE Reed
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGNB-JWL
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXY-1F7
Alice was born 18 March 1866 daughter of George William Edward Reed, Auditor Acct. Gen. Office Lahore & Emily Elizabeth.
Possible?
Death from Bright's disease & burial at West Ridge, Rawalpindi 16 April 1915 for Alice Smith age 50 wife of John William Smith, Pensioner & Mutiny Veteran.
John William would have been about 10 15 at the time of the mutiny if the baptism to John & Isabella is the correct one. 1870 marriage has him as 23. :-\
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children baptised to John William & Alice
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG8G-1VJ
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG64-RZ6
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG65-9Q8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGDB-FQ8
and an adopted child who died the following year
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGWQ-9VD
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG23-G83
There's more than one John William Smith with wife Alice, but father on these baptisms is noted as station master.
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Julie Grace Matilda Gibson died on 28/09/1881, 6 months after John William Walter was born. Could Grace McKenzie be a 2nd wife?
I don’t think so. I think because Julia Grace died when he was a baby he doesn’t have all the exact facts. The McKenzie comes from his grandmother. Isabella. She died 1886 so he probably remembered her, and She was a witness and signed as I McKenzie on one of the other daughters marriages. (As per her Scot heritage which suggests to me she might not have been in the orphanage for very long but that is a wild guess).
Have you a FindMyPast sub? You really need to take out a one month one at least so that you can download all the images for this family that are in their British India Office series.
I am missing something, where did Robert and Amelia come from? What is the link to John? Please can you dumb it down for me x.
Amelia Henrietta is a sister of John William Smith. (A daughter of John and Isabella) there were two other daughters.
Isabella Ann b 1832, married William Smith Hardy 1857 . 4 children found so far.
Mary Ann b 1836, have not found what happened to her.
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John William would have been about 10 at the time of the mutiny if this is the correct peron.
John William was born 1842. Indian Mutiny was 1857. So 15. Not 10.
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could this be a half sister? Working on the dates she was born after Julia Grace Matilda's death.
She is a full sister
Lydia Florence Blanche 20 Aug 1874.
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sorry, I've just corrected his age as was reading through and saw date of baptism. I was working from age at marriage.
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could this be a half sister? Working on the dates she was born after Julia Grace Matilda's death.
She is a full sister
Lydia Florence Blanche 20 Aug 1874.
I was referring to the R A Fairley that appeared.
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he is Robert Andrew Fairlie, uncle of John William Walter Smith
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Julie Grace Matilda Gibson died on 28/09/1881, 6 months after John William Walter was born. Could Grace McKenzie be a 2nd wife?
I don’t think so. I think because Julia Grace died when he was a baby he doesn’t have all the exact facts. The McKenzie comes from his grandmother. Isabella. She died 1886 so he probably remembered her, and She was a witness and signed as I McKenzie on one of the other daughters marriages. (As per her Scot heritage which suggests to me she might not have been in the orphanage for very long but that is a wild guess).
.
I found a document that says Grace McKenzie mother, I am trying to locate it but the website is down at the moment. I will share when I can. Thank you for all this help, I had no idea how to research India links.
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he is Robert Andrew Fairlie, uncle of John William Walter Smith
I was quoting from reply 63. It has she was visiting and she was a nurse.
Who is R. A. Fairlie?
In 1949 she arrived at Fremantle, going to Melbourne 1105 Whitehorse Road, Box Hill. So…. visiting her brother. And that links the family doesn't it? I have come out of the Rabbit Hole!
She was still alive 1952. Travelling from UK to Karachi. age 76. A Nurse. last address
8 Rossmore Road E. Ellesmere Port.
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The bits about visiting refer to Lydia Todd NOT R.A.Fairlie who is Robert Andrew Fairlie who was a witness at her wedding and I was so excited to see the name, perhaps I wasn’t quite clear in the way I expressed it.
Are you sketching this information out on a big tree as you go? It IS a confusing family. Not helped by all being Smiths lol.
Added..I have just made a minor alteration to #63 to make it clearer I hope.
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John William would have been about 10 at the time of the mutiny if this is the correct peron.
John William was born 1842. Indian Mutiny was 1857. So 15. Not 10.
John and Julie wedding record 1870 has John age 23 born 1847
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The bits about visiting refer to Lydia Todd NOT R.A.Fairlie who is Robert Andrew Fairlie who was a witness at her wedding and I was so excited to see the name, perhaps I wasn’t quite clear in the way I expressed it.
Are you sketching this information out on a big tree as you go? It IS a confusing family. Not helped by all being Smiths lol.
That explains the confusion. Yes I am sketching it out as I go, I should have perhaps used a pencil and a rubber instead of a pen ;D
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGVK-QZ9
death & burial 18 July 1886 at Umballa of Isabella Smith aged 73 years & 10 months 18 July 1886. mother of station master North Western Railway.
A good match for the marriage 21 Feb 1831 which gives Isabella McKenzie as 17
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John and Julie wedding record 1870 has John age 23 born 1847
Yes, but it is from a summary of the marriages performed for the quarter. Not the original, original notes. So either
1 he has knocked a few years off his age as he is really 10 years older, or
2. He actually didn’t know his correct age and guessed, or
3. The 28 in the notes wasn’t clear and when they did the return they wrote 23 in error
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Regarding the clip in reply #95
That is from the death indexes. That information is only as good as the knowledge of the informant.
So apart from what I said earlier about perhaps John himself not knowing the correct facts, it is equally possible his wife or children were in error. After all one of the children has McKenzie as a second name so it would be a reasonable error to mix up generations.
Have you bought the 1946 marriage cert yet? That will have information supplied by John himself. It would be interesting to see what he says.
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Regarding the clip in reply #95
That is from the death indexes. That information is only as good as the knowledge of the informant.
So apart from what I said earlier about perhaps John himself not knowing the correct facts, it is equally possible his wife or children were in error. After all one of the children has McKenzie as a second name so it would be a reasonable error to mix up generations.
Have you bought the 1946 marriage cert yet? That will have information supplied by John himself. It would be interesting to see what he says.
That makes sense.
can you remind me which marriage cert I need to order, I have lost it in my reams of notes, I should have perhaps used different coloured pens.
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John and Julie wedding record 1870 has John age 23 born 1847
Yes, but it is from a summary of the marriages performed for the quarter. Not the original, original notes. So either
1 he has knocked a few years off his age as he is really 10 years older, or
2. He actually didn’t know his correct age and guessed, or
3. The 28 in the notes wasn’t clear and when they did the return they wrote 23 in error
you are good at this x
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The 1946 marriage of John WWS Fairlie to Dorothy Reid
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/5fa98aa20ae78424125d1d49/results?q=efamily
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The 1946 marriage of John WWS Fairlie to Dorothy Reid
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/5fa98aa20ae78424125d1d49/results?q=efamily
I'm not having much luck with websites today, error message. I will keep trying.
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Try going in from the start of the website.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
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Try going in from the start of the website.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
It says; April 1st 1946
John William Walter Fairlie and Dorothy Winifred Reid
Widower 24/03/1946 and Spinster
2 children living and -
birth Chichester Sussex England and Adelaide
Barrister age 55 and Home duties age 31
father John William Fairlie deceased and Sampson Reid retired
mother Grace McKenzie deceased and Dorothy Bannister(?) Field
John was obviously waiting for wife no1 to die to marry wife no 2.
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I just have to bob in here - I had to go for a medical procedure today -- nothing to do with Covid!! I seem to have only just come back to life.
I just cannot believe how much you Super Sleuths have found since yesterday -- unbelievable and very impressive research all of you. I am in awe.
Last time I was involved was pages and pages ago regarding the wife Grace Johanna - and thinking her maiden name may just be the one which suddenly appeared in the electoral registers -- that's reams ago.
harrygeorge -- how on earth are you managing to record all this info pouring forth?
Truly wonderful everyone - you are absolute stars.
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is there no occupation given for John William Fairlie?
John William Walter was older than 55 in 1946. He died in Nov 1956 aged 76.
John William Fairlie died 9 August 1916, buried the following day. Retired station master and died of chronic Bright's disease. Age noted as 59, but probably 72.
Given that his mother died when he was a few months old, he possibly didn't know her name.
The first Fairlie bmd record at Chichester is in 1970.
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from the free index on the 1939 register, there is a John W Fairlie, born 1891, barrister, in Hendon, Middlesex with a married Carlotta F born 1894.
Death reg for Carlotta F Fairlie 70 dec qtr 1952 Kensington.
There's a record for a Carlotta Fairlie 50 leaving Bombay in 1937 and heading for 3, Gunter Grove Chelsea.
???
Where's that rabbit hole...
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Carlotta Forrest Fairlie of 3 Gunter Grove Chelsea widow died 8 Dec 1952 at Princess Beatrice Hospital Chelsea, probate to Grindlays Bank.
Possible birth 3 July 1881 & baptism 30 July at Simla of Carlotta Forrest, daughter of George & Harrietta Minniken, George Deputy Conservator of Forests.
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there's a passenger list dated August 1939 for the Maloja sailing from Brisbane to London including John Fairlie 58, barrister, & Carlotta Fairlie 57 heading for 5 Gunter Grove.
Carlotta F Fairlie is on electoral roles for 3 Gunter Grove in the 1940s & start of the 50s with Helen G Wilson. Carlotta's sister, Helen Grey Minniken married Duncan William Wilson in 1910.
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Could do without Carlotta Osprey!!
Are we assuming some Hanky Panky?!
She was married before
22 Oct 1900 married at Simla to William Henry DONALD he was born in 1863 so a lot older. Two children.
21 Oct 1901 Barbara Elaine DONALD born Simla
23 Feb 1903 Hilary Kathleen DONALD born Simla
1919 Carlotta DONALD age 37 :o , Barbara E and Hilary K 18 & 16 respectively are on their way from London to Colombo.
I have been trying to follow them around. Barbara and Hilary were both riding school proprietors at Newbridge Riding School, Bridge Lane, Hendon. The first mention in the papers of the school is 19 Feb 1932, but the first mention with their names is 30 July 1937. They died in Hampshire in 1972 & 1978. Unmarried.
I couldn't resist this - just for flavour. excerpts from the
Hendon & Finchley Times, 20 August 1937
"in six years two Hendon sisters have worked up a flourishing business in the Newbridge Riding School... At the start of their career they had five shillings in their pockets after renting the four horse boxes which now comprise one side of their stable.... loaned horses etc........Miss Hilary Donald said" We came to England from India where our father had been deeply interested in horses as a hobby. We had spent almost all our lives among horses...Both of us were in good jobs but my firm had to cut down staff and I lost my work. One day ... out for a walk....found this stabling, rented it......Our training had been a thorough one in seven different schools, and our venture has succeeded. [names dropped here] Now the money rolls in to the tune of £1000 a year on average. Sometimes more and sometimes a good deal less..........[have] the side saddle our grandmother used as a girl in India......[Barbara] was a member of the Rajah of Manshi's team playing number three when he used to visit Kulu to play a local team there
The next time I have Carlotta is
1936 Carlotta F FAIRLIE on the Mooltan from Brisbane going to 3 Gunter Grove Occ H.D. country of last permanent residence, India. She is on her own.
So if she was in Brisbane, how did she get there? where are the other passenger lists we need?!
In 1937 she has two bookings in March to India, but is crossed out on both manifests so I assume she didn't make the trip.
We then have the 1939 trip for both of them from Brisbane that Osprey posted. So again, how did they get there?
But what I have been puzzling over is if John W. Fairlie in Hendon with Carlotta in 1939 is the same man as the one who arrived in Fremantle 5 Oct 1940 bound for Sydney, having embarked at Bombay. How did he get from London in September 1939 to Bombay? (Although I suppose if he was able to travel to Australia, there is no reason he couldn't also travel to Bombay).
William Henry DONALD didn't die until 1945 at Kulu
When Carlotta died in 1952 she is described as a widow. William's Widow? She isn't John WWS's he is still alive!
So the situation is Possibly:-
John W. W. SMITH married Grace Johanna SMITH.
in 1911 John becomes John W.W. Smith FAIRLIE (we presume something to do with his Fairlie aunt and uncle)
by the 1930s Grace is living with her son/sons as McGregor-Fairlie (The boys having been given McGregor as one of their names (where did that come from?)
John is not with them because he is flitting about having taken up at some point with Carlotta who uses the name FAIRLIE but I don't see a marriage anywhere so far.
in 1939 Carlotta and John W having been to Australia at least twice in the interim are in London. But not at Carlotta's sister's address (3 Gunter Grove).
1940 - possible arrival of John W FAIRLIE back in Australia without Carlotta
1946 - he marries Dorothy Reid. Lies about his age as she is only 31. Lies about his place of birth, gives his father's correct forenames, and one of his mother's names which happens to be the same as his first wife's so perhaps that is why he knew it. Gives mother's maiden name as McKENZIE which is his paternal grandmother.
the thing about all of that I am most unhappy about is his place of birth. Why would he do that? I don't see any reason to doubt the Smith to Fairlie change in 1911, and the families of both lots of SMITH.
A look at some of those Indian Wills might be useful.
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Re passenger lists from UK to India, bear in mind that many people preferred the overland route by ferry and train to a Mediterranean port, joining their ship there. They won't appear on UK passenger lists.
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I just have to bob in here - I had to go for a medical procedure today -- nothing to do with Covid!! I seem to have only just come back to life.
I just cannot believe how much you Super Sleuths have found since yesterday -- unbelievable and very impressive research all of you. I am in awe.
Last time I was involved was pages and pages ago regarding the wife Grace Johanna - and thinking her maiden name may just be the one which suddenly appeared in the electoral registers -- that's reams ago.
harrygeorge -- how on earth are you managing to record all this info pouring forth?
Truly wonderful everyone - you are absolute stars.
Never did I think I would end up with all this information when I asked the question. I am truly grateful and amazed.
As for keeping up, I have copiuos notes and have to keep re-reading the comments and trying to link the information. Failing that I ask Mckha489 to dumb it down for me.
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is there no occupation given for John William Fairlie?
John William Walter was older than 55 in 1946. He died in Nov 1956 aged 76.
John William Fairlie died 9 August 1916, buried the following day. Retired station master and died of chronic Bright's disease. Age noted as 59, but probably 72.
Given that his mother died when he was a few months old, he possibly didn't know her name.
The first Fairlie bmd record at Chichester is in 1970.
This was the information on the wedding certificate. Dorothy perhaps wouldn't have entertained him had she know his real age.
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Could do without Carlotta Osprey!!
Are we assuming some Hanky Panky?!
She was married before
22 Oct 1900 married at Simla to William Henry DONALD he was born in 1863 so a lot older. Two children.
21 Oct 1901 Barbara Elaine DONALD born Simla
23 Feb 1903 Hilary Kathleen DONALD born Simla
1919 Carlotta DONALD age 37 :o , Barbara E and Hilary K 18 & 16 respectively are on their way from London to Colombo.
I have been trying to follow them around. Barbara and Hilary were both riding school proprietors at Newbridge Riding School, Bridge Lane, Hendon. The first mention in the papers of the school is 19 Feb 1932, but the first mention with their names is 30 July 1937. They died in Hampshire in 1972 & 1978. Unmarried.
I couldn't resist this - just for flavour. excerpts from the
Hendon & Finchley Times, 20 August 1937
"in six years two Hendon sisters have worked up a flourishing business in the Newbridge Riding School... At the start of their career they had five shillings in their pockets after renting the four horse boxes which now comprise one side of their stable.... loaned horses etc........Miss Hilary Donald said" We came to England from India where our father had been deeply interested in horses as a hobby. We had spent almost all our lives among horses...Both of us were in good jobs but my firm had to cut down staff and I lost my work. One day ... out for a walk....found this stabling, rented it......Our training had been a thorough one in seven different schools, and our venture has succeeded. [names dropped here] Now the money rolls in to the tune of £1000 a year on average. Sometimes more and sometimes a good deal less..........[have] the side saddle our grandmother used as a girl in India......[Barbara] was a member of the Rajah of Manshi's team playing number three when he used to visit Kulu to play a local team there
The next time I have Carlotta is
1936 Carlotta F FAIRLIE on the Mooltan from Brisbane going to 3 Gunter Grove Occ H.D. country of last permanent residence, India. She is on her own.
So if she was in Brisbane, how did she get there? where are the other passenger lists we need?!
In 1937 she has two bookings in March to India, but is crossed out on both manifests so I assume she didn't make the trip.
We then have the 1939 trip for both of them from Brisbane that Osprey posted. So again, how did they get there?
But what I have been puzzling over is if John W. Fairlie in Hendon with Carlotta in 1939 is the same man as the one who arrived in Fremantle 5 Oct 1940 bound for Sydney, having embarked at Bombay. How did he get from London in September 1939 to Bombay? (Although I suppose if he was able to travel to Australia, there is no reason he couldn't also travel to Bombay).
William Henry DONALD didn't die until 1945 at Kulu
When Carlotta died in 1952 she is described as a widow. William's Widow? She isn't John WWS's he is still alive!
So the situation is Possibly:-
John W. W. SMITH married Grace Johanna SMITH.
in 1911 John becomes John W.W. Smith FAIRLIE (we presume something to do with his Fairlie aunt and uncle)
by the 1930s Grace is living with her son/sons as McGregor-Fairlie (The boys having been given McGregor as one of their names (where did that come from?)
John is not with them because he is flitting about having taken up at some point with Carlotta who uses the name FAIRLIE but I don't see a marriage anywhere so far.
in 1939 Carlotta and John W having been to Australia at least twice in the interim are in London. But not at Carlotta's sister's address (3 Gunter Grove).
1940 - possible arrival of John W FAIRLIE back in Australia without Carlotta
1946 - he marries Dorothy Reid. Lies about his age as she is only 31. Lies about his place of birth, gives his father's correct forenames, and one of his mother's names which happens to be the same as his first wife's so perhaps that is why he knew it. Gives mother's maiden name as McKENZIE which is his paternal grandmother.
the thing about all of that I am most unhappy about is his place of birth. Why would he do that? I don't see any reason to doubt the Smith to Fairlie change in 1911, and the families of both lots of SMITH.
A look at some of those Indian Wills might be useful.
He definitely is a character. Thank you for collating all the information into an easier timeline for me to understand. Where would I find the wills? I am wondering if Grace knew what her husband was up to? He did have the decency to wait 7 days after her death to remarry.
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My thanks also are due to Mr J. W. W. Fairlie of the Punjab Civil Service, who, during his tenure of
the post of Subdivisional Officer of Kulu, rendered me much assistance in my travels.
https://archive.org/details/InTheHighHimalayas/page/n5/mode/2up?q=Fairlie
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My thanks also are due to Mr J. W. W. Fairlie of the Punjab Civil Service, who, during his tenure of
the post of Subdivisional Officer of Kulu, rendered me much assistance in my travels.
https://archive.org/details/InTheHighHimalayas/page/n5/mode/2up?q=Fairlie
That is nice to see.
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and also puts him in Kulu where Carlotta's daughters and presumably Carlotta were living.
::)
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also see
https://www.s-asian.cam.ac.uk/archive/papers/item/macgregor-fairlie-r/
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Hi Harry!
I'm the grandson of H R Macgregor-Fairlie!
I never got to know him, but would it be possible to get all the information you have on this family?
My Dad was rather secretive about all of this, so any info is deeply appreciated!
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Hi Harry!
I'm the grandson of H R Macgregor-Fairlie!
I never got to know him, but would it be possible to get all the information you have on this family?
My Dad was rather secretive about all of this, so any info is deeply appreciated!
Hi, I will send you a private message. Apologies for not seeing your post earlier.
see below.
Macgregorfb needs to make two more posts to activate the private messaging system. Just a smiley on each will do
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Macgregorfb needs to make two more posts to activate the private messaging system. Just a smiley on each will do
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Macgregorfb needs to make two more posts to activate the private messaging system. Just a smiley on each will do
Thank you.
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Lets hope that works! I'd be super keen to have a proper chat, if I'm honest! Especially as I've not really met anyone from my Dad's side of the family! Haha.