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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Sandyq on Wednesday 25 November 20 15:05 GMT (UK)
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I have been trying to trace my late mothers half brother for a long time, and wonder whether anyone on this site can help me.
This is what I know, he was born on 28th September 1905 Leslie Tudor, in Erdington, illeg. son of my grandmother Lily Tudor.
Lily went on to marry Samuel Rabone in 1909, and on the 1911 census Leslie is shown as Leslie Tudor Rabone.
Leslie married Henrietta Gannon in 1926, there are two indexes shown, i) B.Ham N Leslie Rabone 6d 903, and 2) Leslie Tudor 6d 902a they had a son Dennis L born 1927 Birmingham
There are two indexes for his birth 1) Dennis L Rabone 2) Dennis L Tudor both shown as 6d 689
I knew from my mother that this marriage broke down, but I don't know when.
I haven't been able to trace any records for either Leslie or his son Dennis using either name, and I have checked all entries on the 1939 Register using the advance search involving date of birth.
No one in the family ever knew what became of them.
Would it have been possible that they changed names to avoid being found for some reason ?
Again using the 1939 Register I believe I have found Leslies wife Henrietta (dob 10/1/1904) calling herself Henrietta Hathaway living with a John Hathaway ( but no sign of a marriage) there is no sign of Dennis who would be 12 but several entries are marked officially closed.
Is it possible Dennis was given for adoption ?(there is no sign of him dying)
Any help/suggestions would be warmly appreciated
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Have you got Dennis L's exact date of birth and looked for him that way? Have you looked for deaths, also for Leslie and Dennis using exact dates of birth, including not specifying surnames?
You have put that no-one in the family knew what became of them - does that mean that as far as you are aware no contact was made by him after 1930's to his mother/grandmother?
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Leslie Tudor/Rabone is in some trees on Ancestry. However, those that quote a death unfortunately pick the one for a Leslie Rabone who was born in Kings Norton in 1906.
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You have put:
'Again using the 1939 Register I believe I have found Leslies wife Henrietta (dob 10/1/1904) calling herself Henrietta Hathaway living with a John Hathaway ( but no sign of a marriage) there is no sign of Dennis who would be 12 but several entries are marked officially closed.'
I cannot quote details of that 1939, but have you worked out the relationships of the children who are showing to Henrietta and John?
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Hi Chempat,
I haven't got Dennis L exact date of birth, but I've searched all Dennis's born in Jan,Feb and March 1927, nothing for Tudor,Rabone, Gannon or Hathaway came up. I have looked for deaths but didn't know I could search by date of birth so I will look at that.
You're right that as far as I'm aware Leslie never made contact with his mother or siblings after the 1930's. I've seen the incorrect Ancestry trees using the 1906 birth at Kings Norton.
Regarding Henrietta in 1939, it's complex, the childrens names are shown as Hathaway but Caswell has been written on the record, and Sidney Davis too.
In 1922 in BHam James F Caswell married Florence H Jones and they had three children 1925 James, 1928 Thomas E (died the following year) and Florence in 1930
James senior died in 1932 aged 28, and in 1936 his widow Florence H Caswell married John Hathaway, so the children shown with John and Henrietta Hathaway are John's step children.
I cannot see where Florence is,maybe the marriage broke down and Henrietta moved in, but would
Florence have left her children?
I can see a death of Florence H Hathaway aged 63 in 1967 BHam which fits.
In 1946 Henrietta Hathaway married Sidney Davis in Coventry, so that is the link to the Sidney Davis mentioned on the 1939 register.
Told you it was complex ! John Hathaway died in B.Ham in 1952 aged 49
None of that unfortunately gets me any closer to finding what became of Leslie
Perhaps he changed his name for anonimity? Can I trace deaths by birth dates on FindMyPast ?
Many thanks for your involvement
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In 1922 in BHam James F Caswell married Florence H Jones and they had three children 1925 James, 1928 Thomas E (died the following year) and Florence in 1930
James senior died in 1932 aged 28, and in 1936 his widow Florence H Caswell married John Hathaway, so the children shown with John and Henrietta Hathaway are John's step children.
I cannot see where Florence is,maybe the marriage broke down and Henrietta moved in, but would
Florence have left her children?
I can see a death of Florence H Hathaway aged 63 in 1967 BHam which fits.
In 1946 Henrietta Hathaway married Sidney Davis in Coventry, so that is the link to the Sidney Davis mentioned on the 1939 register.
I could not decide whether John Hathaway with extra children and Florence still around meant that it was more or less likely that Dennis was with them, but if the children are in age order, who is at position 3, and 4 more redacted after 1930 birth?
Dates of birth on death certificates start from June quarter 1969 on freebmd.
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There are 3 Tudor/Gannon births in Birmingham, 1927, 1929, and 1930. Are they all from the same family?
1929 and 1930 births both died young.
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Came to the same results chempat, just to add I believe Florence E Caswell (1930) went on to marry a Joseph T Davis in 1950 Birmingham.
John
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I wasn't aware of the other births/deaths of children, only knew of Dennis, but there aren't any other
marriages with those name combinations so most likely they are the same family.
Leslie would have been 9 when my mother was born, and think they had a good relationship as my
given middle name is Lesley, people didn't open up as much years ago, I certainly didn't know my grandmother Lily Tudor had a child out of wedlock until I started researching, probably my mother didn't know either, she certainly didn't speak of it, but she did wonder what became of Leslie.
Do you know how/why comments are added onto the 1939 Register with no explanation, or why redactions are made ?
Many thanks
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Ah John, that's why Davis is written in on the 1939 Register, it's a red herring that Henrietta married a Davis, it's a reference to Florence's third husband Joseph Davis
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Sorry to possibly throw a stick in the spokes here.
I do not think the 1939 register we are all looking at is your family. The Henrietta dob 1904 who first married Caswell as "Jones" and then John Hathaway.
She was born and used Henrietta as her christian name in 1939, but dies as Florence H Hathaway.
Births Mar 1904
Jones Florence Henrietta Birmingham 6d 141
So, is it possible that Leslie & Henrietta having had 3 children between 1927-31 (2 sadly dying young) decided to emigrate somewhere. The fact that Leslie, Henrietta & Dennis cannot be seemingly found in UK records does suggest this as a possibility.
Leslie & Henrietta were certainly together in 1930 electoral register living at 85 Denville Cresent Birmingham
John
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It's so good to have a fresh pair of eyes look at things.
I knew Henrietta Gannon was born on 10th Jan 1904, so when I found an Henrietta on the 1939 register with the exact date of birth I was blind sided, but your research makes sense.
I'd obviously thought of emigration, but thought Leslie and Henrietta had split up, and was surprised that he wouldn't have told his mother or any of his four sisters if he was leaving the country,
also I haven't been able to find any record of them emigrating, but it the only scenerio that makes sense.
Thanks so much for your help, but think it's a brick wall
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Where did you find Henrietta's birth date?
The only Henrietta Gannon birth on free bmd is in the June quarter of 1904, and a January birth should be in the 1st quarter.
Have you found her in 1911?
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Yes, she was baptised on 11th April 1907 in Birmingham, but born 10th January 1904 according to transcribed records.
Father : Jacobi Gannon
Mother: Emiliae Annae Eustace Gannon
Marriage in 1888 of Emily Ann Eustace and James Gannon in Aston on free bmd.
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Interesting death, need to go out now though
Deaths Mar 1982
TOWNSEND HENRIETTA 10JA1907 OXFORD 20 2871
TUDOR HENRIETTA 10JA1907 OXFORD 20 2871
John
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Hetty Townsend in 1939.
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Hi Chempat and John,
I found Henrietta's d.o.b 10/1/1904,as you did, from Catholic baptism, and she is on the 1911 census with parents James and Emily and siblings, she is shown as 8, so either she wasn't 8 or her date of birth wasn't 1904 (census date 2nd April)
Those death records of 1982 are really interesting John, clearly Henrietta Tudor/Townsend are the same person,but d.o.b 10th Jan 1907, not 1904.
I have looked for a marriage of Townsend to Tudor/Rabone without sucess
What I did find, and possibly another red herring,is on the 1939 Register there is a Harold Townsend living with Hettie Townsend whose date of birth is 10th Jan 1907 living in Pangbourne, Berkshire, other people's detail have been closed.
I can't find record of a Harold Townsend marrying anyone called Hettie or Henrietta, so this could be
"my" Henrietta, maybe she and Leslie never divorced, hence the double death index ?
I am puzzled by some of the records, I was married in 1966 and my details are on freebmd but not on FindMyPast, nor are they on FindMyPast under my husbands name, is that unusual ?
Would be grateful of your views
Many thanks
Sandra
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Yes, I have been trying to work on the Harold and Hetty in 1939.
A rough 'rule of thumb' was that people got the year wrong (at 1939 and at death) but usually stuck to the same day and month. People might want to make themselves appear younger or older, for a variety of reasons, and informants on death certificate could just have the wrong year.
Cannot see any will for Henrietta for any further family. There are a lot of closed records in that 1939 set.
Cannot see birth for Harold Townsend, and death not definite.
Do not know why F M P is missing records of your marriage..
Spelling mistake?
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ER for Abingdon in 1955 Harold and Hetty at 16 Stanley Close.
There are 2 other couples in the same district, surname Townsend.
Added:
In 1965 they are both at Nobles Close.
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For info:
The 1939 reg for John & Henrietta dob 10.1.1904 details 5 members blanked out. One of these is probably Thomas E Caswell. The 4 below could be 4 Hathaway/mmn Jones births in Birmingham between 1933-39. I know Florence did not marry John until 1936.
The Florence Henrietta Jones born 1904 was baptised 27th January 1904-no dob given. Wonder if her birth date is also 10.1.1904, what's the chances? We know the dob of Henrietta Gannon is 10.1.1904 from baptism.
Hetty (dob 10.1.1907) & Harold in 1939 and electoral registers look good with the Henrietta Townsend/Tudor death in 1982.
So where are Leslie and Dennis.
John
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Thank you John,
Think I've ruled out John and Henrietta Hathaway.
Hetty and Harold Townsend look much more likely, probably never married though, maybe because Leslie was alive,I wonder whether Dennis took on the Townsend surname and if he was with them on the 1939 register, can't imagine that having lost two children she wouldn't want her surviving child with her, there are a couple of marriages of Dennis L Townsend in the right time scale.
Leslie is the real mystery, and I'm not getting any nearer to solving that mystery, there aren't any certificates I could send for that would help.
Kind regards
Sandra
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How about this for Dennis
TOWNSEND, DENNIS LESLIE 1927
GRO Reference: DOR Q4/2012 in Oxfordshire (695-1F) Entry Number 507443213
John
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There are various references to a Dennis L Tudor in USA. This could be one man or several. I cannot see a birth or any census entry for him/them. There are also entries for Dennis Lee Tudor.
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If that is Dennis's death in 2012, then this is his probable marriage in 1948 to Doris Alston
Marriages Jun 1948
Townsend Dennis L Alston Devizes 7c 1098
2002 electoral reg for Witney Oxfordshire lists Dennis L Townsend with another occupant named Doris.
5 children listed on freebmd between 1948-59 with surname Townsend mmn Alston.
John
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Just about to post that, having been sidetracked by a Southampton Dennis, and lack of a will. Dennis's wife may still be alive.
Added:
Could be her death:
Doris Ethel Townsend, born 1929, died in Oxfordshire in 4th quarter 2012.
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You beat me to it.
John
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Think you're on to something here, I'd seen the marriage of Dennis Townsend to Doris Alston.
I had assumed that Dennis's middle name was Leslie.
Strange that is looks like Dennis and Doris both died in 2012, which site did you find that info on?
Tomorrow I will start looking for the 5 children, all may well still be alive, and see if I can progress anything there, they may know something about their grandfather Leslie.
Thank you both so much, your help is invaluable
Sandra
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Deaths on GRO.
Doris's father looks to be Albert E Alston (1897) who married Lydia Beasant in 1924.
They had an older son Thomas.
Look for them on 1939, and by coincidence or otherwise, another interesting surname pops up on same page.
Added: Think it is just coincidence.
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1959 daughter has a fairly obvious marriage, and is on facebook.
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Thanks Chempat, have sent a message to no. 5 via Facebook, will let you know if I have a response
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Sandra-your quote
Strange that is looks like Dennis and Doris both died in 2012, which site did you find that info on?
The official GRO death index goes up until 2019. Anc* up to 2007 on one catalogue and England & Wales death index 1989-2019 but this is not complete.
John
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Hi John,
You sent me details of Dennis's death 4qtr 2012, and Chempac detail of Doris also 4qtr 2012
I've made progress !
I found the phone number for Dennis and Doris's eldest son and spoke to his wife a little while ago.
She said the information we worked out is right and there's was a very complicated family.
He is out but she said he will be happy to talk to me later this evening.
She said what a difficult time it had been because Dennis and Doris (who lived close by) died within days of each other in 2012 both from cancer.
She also said Dennis didn't see his father, so I suppose I won't be able to find what became of him,
but I am pleased that Dennis went to to have a good family life
I was quite nervous about 'phoning ,but she was very nice, and so it wil be good to hear exactly what her husband knows.
Will let you know
Sandra
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Do you mean that Dennis did not see his father Leslie after the marriage broke down? This is a pity. But the rest is good.
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That's great news. You may wish just to modify your last post and remove son's name as a living person as per rootschat policy.
John
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Thank you John, I thought I'd sent to you as a PM, but have modified as you suggested.
Thanks again for all your help
Sandra