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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: txorimalo on Friday 27 November 20 18:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
One of my ancestor (William Moore) was from Scotland but married in Newcastle and have children there.
I don't find any info of him (i only have his father name).
Here i have some records with info of William Moore:
1846 Marriage in Newcastle (father name Charlton Moore): https://ibb.co/R0n4vLG
1851 Census from Newcastle: https://ibb.co/0rxcwvd
Could anyone help me getting more info about his parents?
Thanks in advance.
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If there is anything about him it will be at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. Though a quick search there finds nothing on Charlton Moore at all.
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There's this death, earlier in the same yr as William marries but it doesn't state his father is deceased on the marriage :-\
Deaths Mar 1846
MOOR Charlton Newcastle T 25 264
Annie
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William maybe?
1841 Newcastle upon Tyne
Charles Moor 45 Ireland
Mary Moor 45 Ireland
William Moor 17 Scotland
James Moor 10 Northumberland
Colin
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PS most other males on the 1841 census are Bottle Makers.
Colin
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With everything that has been added, there is also this christening entry for a James www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NP1L-52Q
Monica
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Thanks all for your replies.
Is it okey to assume that Charlton is Charles?
I am also stuck finding William's birth date. I am not able to find it on FamilySearch or Scotlandpeople.
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It does look as though Charlton/Charles could possibly be same?
Have you seen the 1846 Charlton Moor death?
It's not a common name i.e. worth checking out.
Can you please add some family details as opposed to having to keep looking at links i.e. names of wife & all children in order?
What are the names of any female children born after 1851 who don't tie with the maternal line names which may help as being a possible name for his mother?
When did William die & what is the last census you have him on?
When did wife Jane die & was she a widow?
Annie
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Is this part of your extended family?
1871 Morland Street, West Butcher Shop, Westgate, Newcastle upon Tyne
John Charlton Moor Head 22 c1849 b NLB
Isabella Moor Wife 19 c1852 b NLB
Annie
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Here is al the info I have:
William MOORE and Jane Ann CLOSE marriage:
· Newcastle Upon Tyne
· 7 Feb 1846
· William Moore: 21 years. Parent: Charlton Moore, Labourer.
· Jane Ann Close: 20 years. Parent: Henry Close.
Charlton MOORE dead in 1846?
· 22 Mar 1846, 46 years, labourer
William MOORE census 1851 in Newcastle upon Tyne:
· William Moore Head Male 27 Scotland Bottle Maker
· Jane Moore Wife Female 26 N Castle On Tyne,
· Jane Moore Daughter Female 3 N Castle On Tyne,
· Henry Moore Son Male 0 N Castle On Tyne,
Jane MOORE (wife) dead in 1859:
· 1859 Anderston, Lanarkshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
William MOORE census in 1861 in Anderston, Scotland:
· William Moore Male 36 Midlothian
· Jane Moore Daughter Female 13
· Eliza Moore Daughter Female 7
· Margaret Close Female 25 (sister of Jane Ann)
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Thanks for the info. as it's so much easier to follow.
What was the address on the death of Charlton & who was the informant which may help you decide whether it's correct as the occ. fits?
If you could find wife Mary in 1851 as a widow it would help confirm too.
William now known to have been born in Midlothian although nothing showing (probably hasn't survived) to help with mms.
Who was the informant on wife Jane's death in 1859?
So you're looking to trace William beyond 1861?
Was William deceased on the marriages of children?
Annie
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Charlton Moor | 22 Mar 1846
Parish: St Nicholas, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England, United Kingdom
Age: 48
Abode: Close
No more info in that dead record.
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Is that the info. on the actual death cert?
Annie
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Yes, is the info that apperas on the death cert.
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Another child of William Moore, the one who appears on the 1861 record, Eliza:
Eliza Ann Moore, 27 Aug 1854, St Nicholas, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England, United Kingdom. Father Bottle Maker and they lived in Close Abode.
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Yes, is the info that apperas on the death cert.
Who was the informant?
Annie
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Yes, is the info that apperas on the death cert.
Who was the informant?
Annie
This one: https://ibb.co/rbxLJXL
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Just a pity it wasn't a family member although it does seem to be the correct chap.
Posting this as Robert may turn out to be a brother of Charlton & it's possibly a good clue to their mothers' maiden name?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J78Q-3ZL
Annie
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Its another family. That Robert Charlton Moor is an Agent. And my Charlton Moore was labourer (as show on Willian marriage in 1846).
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Sorry, I'm mixing myself up trying to post as I was heading out the door...
The Robert Charlton Moor from the link I posted was born 1840, his father Robert Charlton Moor I think could possibly be a brother of your William Moor?
I haven't looked for a marriage for the elder Robert Charlton & wife Mary Ann as I'm not long home.
Annie
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Robert Charlton Moor (21) married Mary Ann Miles (widow) 16 Dec 1839 All Saints, Newcastle-upon-Tyne
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2CY-Y19F
The civil record would give father's name, occ. & witnesses names
Edit...Death of Mary Ann 27 May 1841 & son Robert Charlton 06 Oct 1841
Annie
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Looks like R C Moor remarried 1845 to Jane Henderson (m/s Gilroy) Newcastle upon Tyne
Father Robert Moor (so not a brother of William although father Robert may be a brother of Charlton)?
1851 - St Marys Street, East All Saints, Newcastle upon Tyne Piece 2407 Folio 701 Pg 35
Robert Charlton Moor Head Married 38 (1813) Brewer b Gateshead, Durham, England
Jane Moor Wife Married 45 (1806) b Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland, England
John Henderson Son 15 (1836) Painter "
Christiana Henderson Dau 8 (1843) "
Mary Gilroy Mother In Law W 82 (1769) Dep (OP)? "
Jane Brown Servant U 20 (1831) House Servant "
Barbara Drew Servant U 17 (1834) House Servant "
Looks like RCM died 1859
I haven't found William yet...
Have you found marriages/census entries/deaths for Jane & Eliza post 1861?
Baby Henry in 1851 must have died, not on 1861.
Annie
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Baby Henry in 1851 must have died, not on 1861.
I think this may be him:
MOOR, HENRY 4
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 48
Ruth
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Hi,
William's daughter Jane went to Spain, but it her records there is no info about the age, birth or any info of William, only that he was from Newcastle.
I don't know nothing from Eliza :(
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Did Jane marry, if so, where/when?
Edit...Do you know when Jane went to Spain, from where & who with i.e. do you have an address?
Background info. can often help in research.
Annie
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Wife Jane died 1859 Anderston
This marriage may be worth checking...
MOORE WILLIAM / REID ELIZABETH 1867 - 644/8 263 Anderston
Annie
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I think I may have found the elusive William Moore ;D I've got an 1871 census entry in Glasgow Anderston, and an 1891 census entry in Glasgow Kelvin:
1871 Anderston, Lanarkshire
85 Port Street
William More, head, 45, England, flesher(?)
Margaret More, wife, 35, England
Eliza More, daughter, 18, England, way maker (stay maker?)
Robert More, son, 14, England, bottle maker
Joseph More, son, 6, Spain
Margaret More, daughter, 2, Glasgow
Jane Close, mother, 6m(?), England (if you look on the SP index, Jane Close's age is actually 64)
The 1871 entry is a very poor Ancestry transcription, which appears a bit muddled - and on a first look, I didn't think it was William, but there were more things that seemed to match (ages, daughter Eliza, the mention of Spain, and presence of Jane Close) than there were things that didn't (William's occupation and place of birth, and son Robert, who doesn't appear to be with the family in 1861).
So, following the youngest daughter, Margaret, born in Glasgow in 1868, I think the 1891 entry is probably them:
1891 Kelvin
12 Pembroke St
William Moore, 66, Leith, Midlothian, bottle maker retired
Margaret Moore, 56, England, bottle maker's wife
Margaret Moore, 20, Glasgow, Lanarkshire, stay maker
So, it looks like William married his first wife's sister, Margaret. I was hopeful that they might have been married in Scotland, so the marriage registration would tell us who William's parents were, but according to daughter Margaret's birth registration (she was born on 27 Dec 1868 in Anderston), her parents (William Moore, bottle blower and Margaret Moore MS Close) were married on 24th June 1861 in Sunderland.
Ruth
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Great stuff Ruth!
This is the marriage index details which will give father's name & occ...
Marriages Jun 1861
CLOSE Margaret - Sunderland 10a 610
Moore William - Sunderland 10a 610
Can be ordered here...https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Annie
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Death index for 2nd wife Margaret which would help with a window of death for William...
CLOSE MARGARET 51 - 1893 - 644/7 312 Blythswood (Lanark)
Matching ref. for surname MOORE
Annie
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Wow, thanks for all that info.
I will check that records and report back with the info.
Thanks again.
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Hi again,
I have more info.
One of the daughters that went to Spain, Jane Moore, was baptism there and in her baptism record we can read who her granparents were.
This is the info:
Father: William Moore
Paternal grandfather: Charles Moore
Maternal grandmother: Mary 'Goxyn' (this surname i think it is bad writen, but maybe another surnmae with same phonetic?)
That make this 1841 census true:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7WJ-WXZ
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Maternal grandmother: Mary 'Goxyn' (this surname i think it is bad writen, but maybe another surnmae with same phonetic?)
My guess is it could be Jackson?
Annie
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Maternal grandmother: Mary 'Goxyn' (this surname i think it is bad writen, but maybe another surnmae with same phonetic?)
My guess is it could be Jackson?
Annie
Why Jackson?
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A 'G' & 'J' can sound the same & with different accents Jackson / Joxyn i.e. 'xyn' son?
It's a guess as a soundex as I know Jackson to be a common surname in the borders of Scotland & north east of England.
Annie
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Hi,
I am stuck finding where and when my Scottish ancestor died.
This is the info I have from him:
Name: William Moore (son of Charles Moore and Mary Goggin, born in Leith, Midlothiam in 1825)
Married from 1846 to 1859 with Jane Ann Close in Newcastle Upon Tyne (Northumberland, England)
Married from 1861 to ??? with Margaret Close in Sunderland (Durham, England)
1851 census he was in England (St Nicholas, Newcastle upon Tyne)
1861 census: he was in Scotland (Barony, Glasgow)
1871 census: he was in Scotland (Barony, Glasgow)
1891 census: he was in Scotland (Barony, Glasgow)
After that 1891 census I haven't fint it on the next one. I have search in scotlandpeople website, but no luck finding death date.
Any help is welcome :)
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For the avoidance of duplicated effort, this thread relates to the same William Moore: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840884.0
Ruth
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Do you have the death registration of William's second wife, Margaret Close (1893, Glasgow) - as mentioned in the previous thread? Was William still alive then?
Ruth
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Do you have the death registration of William's second wife, Margaret Close (1893, Glasgow) - as mentioned in the previous thread? Was William still alive then?
Ruth
I dont have it, but the maiden surname doesnt match. SP index is Pilnei and her maiden surname was Petrie
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I dont have it, but the maiden surname doesnt match. SP index is Pilnei and her maiden surname was Petrie
I wouldn’t discount it on that basis - it’s close enough to be a poor transcription.
Ruth
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I suggest you check it out! I wouldn't discount it. What address were they living at in 1891?
flst
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I suggest you check it out! I wouldn't discount it. What address were they living at in 1891?
flst
They were living in 'Penbroke st' in 1891
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I dont have it, but the maiden surname doesnt match. SP index is Pilnei and her maiden surname was Petrie
I wouldn’t discount it on that basis - it’s close enough to be a poor transcription.
Ruth
I have ordered it, it is William's second wife. Reading it is very difficult to me. Can i share the record here?
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I have ordered it, it is William's second wife. Reading it is very difficult to me. Can i share the record here?
Yes, but you should not post the whole of it as that is regarded as a breach of copyright. Just post the bits you can't read.
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I have ordered it, it is William's second wife. Reading it is very difficult to me. Can i share the record here?
Yes, but you should not post the whole of it as that is regarded as a breach of copyright. Just post the bits you can't read.
Okey. I attach the piece of the record i cant understand.
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Margaret Moore, married to William Moore, night watchman. Died 10 July 1893...
Can't really decipher the address - maybe 63 Burgess Street?
Do her parent's names match those of William's first wife (Margaret's sister)? Who was the informant, was it William, or someone else?
'Married to...' suggests he was still alive at this time.
Ruth
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Margaret Moore, married to William Moore, night watchman. Died 10 July 1893...
Can't really decipher the address - maybe 63 Burgess Street?
Do her parent's names match those of William's first wife (Margaret's sister)? Who was the informant, was it William, or someone else?
'Married to...' suggests he was still alive at this time.
Ruth
Was does 'night watchman' means?
Parents are the same of Willian's first wife. Henry Close (brickmaker) deceased and Jane Close (maide surname Petrie) deceased.
Signature and qualification of informant: Margaret Moore 'daugters'? present
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Was does 'night watchman' means?
Like a security guard - in my experience, it's quite a common occupation for (relatively) older men, who have retired from their trade or profession. I've come across it quite often in my ancestors.
Margaret Moore, daughter, (present) - that means that their daughter Margaret was present when she died. Usually, it also indicates that the informant was living with the deceased at the time of death, otherwise the informant's usual address would also appear here.
Ruth
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Was does 'night watchman' means?
Like a security guard - in my experience, it's quite a common occupation for (relatively) older men, who have retired from their trade or profession. I've come across it quite often in my ancestors.
Margaret Moore, daughter, (present) - that means that their daughter Margaret was present when she died. Usually, it also indicates that the informant was living with the deceased at the time of death, otherwise the informant's usual address would also appear here.
Ruth
Thanks!
So William Moore dead had to be between 1893 and 1925. His maiden surname was Goggin. Have search it in SP, but no ocurrences.
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I think I've finally found a death for your William Moore - I think he's the William Moore, aged 61, who died in Glasgow Blythwood in 1893 - he died a couple of months after his wife.
'William Moore, night watchman, widower of Margaret Close'. The address is the same as on Margaret's death registration, and daughter Margaret Moore was the informant again.
Parents are given as Charles Moore, general labourer (deceased) and Jane Watson (deceased).
Clearly there are a few discrepancies with the information you have - not the least being his age - but it does look like it's him. It's quite possible his daughter didn't know how old he was - she certainly managed to shave a bit off her own age - she appears in the 1901 census aged 28, and then marries later the same year (to a William Fraser) at aged 29 - but we know from her DOB of 1868, she would actually have been 33 in Dec 1901.
The mother's name doesn't seem to match either - Scotland's People have it indexed as Watson, but it's actually very difficult to read - although from your previous thread, you say that you have a record on which the maiden name looks like 'Goxyn', which could be Watson, I guess. I'd recommend getting the record and seeing whether you think it matches the other documents you have.
Ruth
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I think I've finally found a death for your William Moore - I think he's the William Moore, aged 61, who died in Glasgow Blythwood in 1893 - he died a couple of months after his wife.
Thank you very much Ruth :)
It is clearly him. The maiden surname 'Watson' and the record i have in spannish 'Goxyn' can be phonetically same. Charles Moore was labourer, like i knew. The street and the other things connect with my info. What seems to be incorrect is the mother name of William, which was Mary, but maybe Margaret daugther didn't know what it was...
Could it be common to confuse 'Jane' name with 'Mary'?
(I don't understand in what day William dead, i attach the piece of the record)
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It looks like 1st October 1893 to me, but it is quite difficult to read.
I suspect that Margaret never knew her paternal grandmother - it seems likely she died well before she was born. However, she must have at least known who her maternal grandmother was - Jane Close (nee Petrie) is with the family in Glasgow in 1871. I think this is possibly just a case of Margaret not knowing, so she gave a name she did know - I've seen this happen a few times - although it's interesting that she appeared to know her grandmother's maiden name, or at least a version of it.
Death registrations are the least reliable source of information like this, as - by definition - the information isn't given by the individual themselves.
Ruth
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Just a pity it wasn't a family member although it does seem to be the correct chap.
Posting this as Robert may turn out to be a brother of Charlton & it's possibly a good clue to their mothers' maiden name?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J78Q-3ZL
Annie
I looked at this thread via a link from a subsequent thread.
I think there has been a misunderstanding here.
The record on the image is from the burial register of St Nicholas, Newcastle upon Tyne. The date is the date of burial, not the date of death and the signature is not an informant but the clergyman who entered the record into the burial register.
Its not a death register entry or the information that would appear on the death certificate.
To get a copy of the actual death registration it would have to be applied for via
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
it would cost £7 for a copy register entry delivered by email.
and would give the date and place of death, name & age of the deceased, his occupation, cause of death, plus the name and address of whoever the informant was - who may (or may not) be related to the deceased.
Boo
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So glad you took our advice to view Margaret's death certificate :). It's strange that the family cannot be found in the 1881 census though.
flst
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As with all other records, Census records depend on the accuracy of the record-taker. I found a branch of my tree featuring people alled McKie listed as MacKay. Even worse, my Archer ancestors could not be found until I realised that the enumerator had misheard my ancestor's County Mayo accent and assumed the family name was Arshard.
If you widen your search to add in "More", "Moor" and similar sounding names something might pop up.
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Thanks all for the help :)
I will get Charlton Moore certificate from GRO.
I remain stuck finding when William Moore was birth. I know that was between 1824 and 1825 in Leith (Midlothian, also known as Edinburghshire).
Search in Familyserach or ScotlandPeople don't give me any result. I have looked into all churches, but no luck. Maybe he wasn't baptist?
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Maybe he wasn't unfortunately. Or the relevant registers have been lost/destroyed over the years. Lots of other reasons as well.
Pre the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855, only about a third of BMD events were anotated in any form.
Monica
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Any other help?
I can't find William Moore birth in Scotland or the birth/marriage of his parents in Ireland.
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Have you tried the spelling MUIR
I have an ancestor spelt Moore on an Irish certificate but Muir on all the Scottish ones
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I have try Moore, Moor, More, Muir, Mure, Mor, Moar..
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I will get Charlton Moore certificate from GRO.
Just wondering what the outcome was?
Annie
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Any other help?
I can't find William Moore birth in Scotland or the birth/marriage of his parents in Ireland.
This will be very difficult as Irish records are difficult to research without knowing parishes or at least areas & you only have 'Ireland' as a starting point.
They may even have married in Scotland although records are not available for any number of reasons.
Do you know what religion the family were?
Annie
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Is this part of your extended family?
1871 Morland Street, West Butcher Shop, Westgate, Newcastle upon Tyne
John Charlton Moor Head 22 c1849 b NLB
Isabella Moor Wife 19 c1852 b NLB
I can't recall if you found a connection there but I found this while looking for Charlton obit or anything else...
Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer 11 February 1918
John Charlton Moore
Annie
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Charlton Moore death certificate didn't say anything to continue the research.
James Moore, brother of William, was baptist in St Nicholas church in Newcastle, so maybe it is a clue to determine what was the religion of the family?
I haven't find any connection of John Charlton Moor and William Moore family.
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Charlton Moore death certificate didn't say anything to continue the research.
James Moore, brother of William, was baptist in St Nicholas church in Newcastle, so maybe it is a clue to determine what was the religion of the family?
I haven't find any connection of John Charlton Moor and William Moore family.
Did it confirm he was the father of William?
What denomination was St. Nicholas Church?
Have you looked into a connection?
Have you done DNA &/or an online tree to help with matches to Charlton/Charles?
Annie
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St Nicholas is the Church of England Cathedral in Newcastle upon Tyne.
Boo
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It confirms that Charlton Moore was William Moore father, yes.
St Nicholas was Church of England (Anglican).
I haven't done any DNA test.
I will upload this part of my tree to ancestry or some site like that.
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Charlton Moore death certificate didn't say anything to continue the research.
Out of curiosity, who was the informant of the death?
Annie