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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: Leanne Pethick on Saturday 28 November 20 12:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
Dad turned 89yo today and while he is still a very young person, his body is giving way. He was very close to his maternal grandmother, Mary Kathleen O'Donnell and I have spent the last few months of lockdown here in Vic, Aus. trying to find her O'Donnell Ancestors.
It was Patrick O'Donnell who married Mary Ryan in Kilfeacle, Tipperary who came to Australia in 1865. What a nightmare it has turned out trying to find their families in Ireland!
I have been focusing on trying to find Patrick's O'Donnell family and after having incredible success with using DNA to find one line of my mother's ancestors, have been trying to do the same. However it appears that once anyone hits an O'Donnell ancestor, they hit a brick wall.
A couple of 'cousins' on the other side of the brick wall have kindly given me 'collaborator' access to their DNA results in Ancestry and this has helped (I have Dad and his sister's results as well as a number of my siblings as well).
I have found clusters of matches with various other surnames in their trees (Terrell, Dwyer, Meehan etc) but not been able to link any of them. I just end up with very separate trees and can't find where any of them connect.
I believe (from selected certificates her in Australia) that Patrick and Mary were both born and married in Kilfeacle, Tipperary. Patrick's death certificate has parents 'unknown' :( and they were married in Ireland before they came to Australia (so no parents on marriage cert), so I don't even have a starting place for his parents other than O'Donnell in Kilfeacle.
I use Ancestry and FTM 2019 as well as FamilySearch mainly, however have also subscribed now to FindMyPast, British Newspapers, Newspapers.com... but just can't find anything.
Would really appreciate any suggestions or ideas!
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Going back to basics and have a some questions...
1. The records of their marriage (states they lived in Deerpark, Kilfeacle) and their first 2 children's baptisms, all 3 give the name 'DONNELL' rather than O'Donnell.
Is this common? Or is this a different couple and I have the wrong records?
2. How common was the naming of children after grandparents in Ireland? Will their children's names be a hint to their parents?
3. Were sponsors, witnesses, those recorded as 'present' at baptisms and marriages usually family / siblings / parents if alive at the time?
4. Someone told me that there were are no records before 1833. Can anyone recommend a good 'How to research Ireland' document / tutorial?
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Hello Leanne,
Unfortunately, as you will know, your family just missed out on civil records which began in 1864.
Here is the marriage in Golden parish records 21st February 1860
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632729#page/189/mode/1up
There are Donnell witnesses, John and William, which might help in broadening the family records.
You can see here https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0267 that there are no baptismal records on the site pre 1833 as you have been told.
RootsIreland mentioned on that page is a pay site and sometimes has records which are not available but I have not checked.
You have the baptisms of the children
John 29th January 1861 - sponsors Edmond Lonergan and Margaret Ryan
Catherine 10th March 1863 - sponsors John Dwyer and Mary Dwyer
If the families used a naming pattern, it was usually the first boy after husband’s father and first girl after wife’s mother and so on but some didn’t do this.
I hope this helps.
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Where and when was Mary Kathleen born?
"...his maternal grandmother, Mary Kathleen O'Donnell.."
Where did they arrive in Australia and what ship?
"...Patrick O'Donnell......married Mary Ryan in Kilfeacle, Tipperary who came to Australia in 1865."
What certificates do you have for BDM events in the life of the people you have named here?
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Thank you so much for your replies Heywood and Wivenhoe.
I am going to check out the rootsireland website as soon as I finish this reply.
Patrick and Mary had 10 children in total. The first 2 born in Ireland, the other 8 in Victoria Australia.
Everyone believes that Patrick and Mary came to Australia on The Donald McKay in 1865. However the record they believe is theirs has Patrick with an age that is very unlikely, the 2 children with correct ages, and a Mary Dwyer (this info is all in the attached doc) who may be the Mary Dwyer who was one of the sponsors at Catherine's baptism. But where was Mary O'Donnell nee Ryan? Certainly the births of the children give a narrow window of only a couple of years during which they made the journey to Australia.
Patrick and Mary lived in Melbourne for a couple of years then moved to rural Vic where they lived until they died. Four of their children died in infancy. Two of the 6 children who lived to adulthood remained in the Castlemaine area and the other 4 moved to Western Australia within a few years of Bridget dying.
I have attached a document that includes the certificates that I have bought, and at the top I made a couple of tables - 1 that summarises the info in the certificates, and one to try to narrow down the years when they were born.
My very sincere thanks again for your time. Appreciate any and all suggestions :)
Oops - the doc was 3mb and wouldn't attach - so I have included the summary tables only.
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Thank you for the charts.
Do the Australian records confirm Mary’s maiden name of O’Donnell?
Error - Ryan
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Ahh Mary's maiden name was RYAN. Her married name was O'Donnell.
Yes, all certificates in Australia have 'Formerly Ryan'.
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I made a mistake there - sorry!
I was just wondering if Mary Ryan O’Donnell had died in Ireland and Mary Dwyer had become Mrs O’Donnell - re the voyage you found.
If though the children were born to Mary Ryan then that theory is wrong ;)
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Mount Alexander Mail 23 Jul 1881 p2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198696008?
Neglected Children. — Michael William O'DONNELL (5 1/4 years), Joseph O'DONNELL(II years), and Margaret O'Donnell (7 years), all neglected children...........
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Yes, that actually occured to me a few times, particularly as I have never found a record of a marriage or a death for Mary Dwyer here in Victoria. She may have moved interstate and I confess I find other state's bdm confusing. Have mastered Vic and WA only. If it is the same Mary Dwyer as was Catherine's sponsor, it would be unlikely for her to settle far from the O'Donnells unless she had closer family in Australia somewhere.
I spent some time searching for her (Mary Dwyer) on https://trove.nla.gov.au/ as well and came up empty. However not confident of my searching skills.
Then I thought perhaps they just decided to give her Mary's maiden name of Ryan, however surely they would have done this before she came out to Australia? IE she would have been Mary Ryan on the ship... or perhaps not, ... perhaps it was only after she came to Australia. She was certainly Mary's age...
:-\
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Mount Alexander Mail 23 Jul 1881 p2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198696008?
Neglected Children. — Michael William O'DONNELL (5 1/4 years), Joseph O'DONNELL(II years), and Margaret O'Donnell (7 years), all neglected children...........
What a find!!!
Thank you SO much Wivenhoe *star*
This is definitely our O'Donnell children, particularly with elder sister Bridget. Their father Patrick had died only 10 days or so before - on 12th July.
Mary went on to live another 12 years. I wonder if / when they went back to her? I know that Margaret at least was very close with both Mary Kathleen and Bridget throughout their lives.
My aunty Joan didn't even know her mother had an uncle Michael (until I told her) even though he and his family lived within 10kms of them in Perth.
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You can see the file -
At this site -
http://access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/component/daPublicBaseContainer?component=daSimpleSearch&componentLabel=Simple%20Search&breadcrumbPath=Home/Access%20the%20Collection/Simple%20Search
At top left hand...Searching......
drop down menu.....select....Search within a Series
For ........VPRS......write .....4527.......
For words.....write....ODONNELL......
Finds........ODonnell, Joseph [Reg. no. 12659]
ODonnell, Michael William [Reg. no. 12660]
Link to file is below the name........
Then......download PDF
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My thanks to you yet again Wivenhoe!
Lovely to know that young Joseph was discharged to his sister Bridget (who wasn't a 'Mrs' anything at the time ;-) Also that the 3 children were together most of the time. Have let the cousins I am in contact with in Perth who are descendants of William and Margaret know that I have these docs and will upload to Ancestry for them. Joseph died at 27yo and never married.
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Well after a very long day of hunting, I think I have found Mary's baptism.
The only thing is that she was baptised in 1848! That is, if her parents really were Catherine Hogan and John Ryan.
This would have made her only 12yo when she married Patrick! If it is our great grandmother, we have found her some siblings as well :) :)
John Ryan and Catherine Hogan married 2/2/1833, Cashel and Emly, Tipperary. (Present:) Patrick RYAN and Honora Walsh.
Children:
1. Edmund: baptised 27/7/1834, Cashel and Emly, County Tipperary. Sponsors: Edmund TRIGGS & Mary RYAN.
2. Patrick: baptised 27/3/1836, Cashel and Emly, County Tipperary. Sponsors: James RYAN and Catherine MAHONEY
3. Thomas: baptised 23/2/1839, Cashel and Emly, County Tipperary. Sponsors: James and Eliza KELLY
4. Margaret: baptised 2/5/1842, Cashel and Emly, County Tipperary. Sponsors: Matthew Healy and Mary CRONIN
5. Daniel: baptised 4/8/1844, Cashel and Emly, County Tipperary. Sponsors: John CRANLEY and Mary EDDGE
6. MARY: baptised 26/3/1848, Cashel and Emly, County Tipperary. Sponsors: Patt RYAN and Margaret Magrath.
Generally I have found that in Ireland, RC children were baptised relatively soon after their birth.
There is a bit of a space between Daniel and Mary... but not huge, particularly given Mary was child #6.
=> Should I keep her birth as c1841 - which all the docs in Australia would indicate, and which makes her about 19yo when she married ???
Such an incredibly satisfying feeling finding the family after 13 straight hours of hunting on FindMyPast, Ancestry, RootsIRE, FamilySearch etc. Definitely not easy in Ireland! ;)
PS. The fact that there was no Mary O'Donnell travelling with Patrick and the children, but a Mary Dwyer 22yo, together with the fact that Mary Ryan with parents John Ryan and Mary Hogan married only 12 years after she was baptised, has me feeling very unsure. Something fishy somewhere?
Or not our Patrick O'Donnell on the Donald Mackay?
Hmmm :-\
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What do you know about John Thomas O'DONNELL's use of the name Walter BARTLETT?
From his death certificate.....where did he die...where is he buried......years in the colony....name of the informant...birthplace....occupation.....marriage/s...children?
4773/1933 BARTLETT Walter parents Mary RYAN / ODONNELL Patrick
age 71 @ Carlton
4773/1933 OCONNELL John Thomas parents Mary RYAN / ODONNELL Patrick
age 71 @ Carlton
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Bit of a sad story about John Thomas... I bought his death certificate a while back now, when I was still working on identifying our relatives up to Patrick and Mary. I have attached it here.
It appears that John Thomas was homeless when he died.
His death certificate gives place of death as the Exhibition Gardens in Melbourne (the sleeping place of many homeless) and date of death is '3rd or 4th' of June 1933. It seems he often(?) stayed at a homeless shelter in Little Bourke St Melbourne (close to the Gardens) as this was given as his 'residence' and it must have been from them that the information on the death certificate was obtained as the informant was a police constable.
Unless they spoke with his sister Bridget who still lived in Castlemaine with her family (there is a photo of Bridget's Mitchell family with my grandmother Molly Hewitt and John Thomas taken at Bridget's home in Castlemaine during one of Grandma's trips 'east' to visit her Mitchell cousins. This was taken 'pre 1930' - so he was obviously still in contact with Bridget at that point)
Where the Walter Bartlett came from, or why, I have no idea! Neither Dad or Joan knew about John Thomas until I started researching. Dad was only 2yo when John Thomas died.
Our PFT is in ancestry with Dad as the home person: https://www.ancestry.com.au/family-tree/tree/69794572/family/familyview and all the photos, certificates and information I have has been uploaded to the relevant people.
His age was given as 71 (only a year out),
Years in the Colony: 64. ( would have been 7-ish instead of 4-ish when he arrived)
Never married - very comfortable this is correct. Never a wife mentioned or with him in photos.
Occupation: Carpenter - like his father Patrick.